Re: Next RAP CD?

[Iowa Recorder]

Well I ordered the 5th of RAP CD set. What are we down to? 148?
Also do folkes post feedback to peoples submissions? I'd be
interested in submitting a recording just for the possibility of
getting constructive feedback/critisism on my work.

IR

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Iowa Recorder" > wrote in message om...
> Well I ordered the 5th of RAP CD set. What are we down to? 148?
> Also do folkes post feedback to peoples submissions? I'd be
> interested in submitting a recording just for the possibility of
> getting constructive feedback/critisism on my work.
>
> IR


A couple of people tried to break the ice by reviewing all 5 discs,
and there *was* sporatic input, but conversation wasn't as deep
as expected. The earilier, 7-disc set was almost ignored. It's
really quite a lot of material to contemplate, say nothing of having
to contemplate a method of 'critique' that's both accurate and
informative as well as, shall we say, 'gentle' on the submitter.

I didn't say much because I *still* have not listened to each track
in a fashion that I could seriously call "critical". I'm sorta' with
Hank, in that the music itself (performances, etc.) can be compelling
enough on their own to distract one from focusing on the technical
hooplah.

I did find a brief way around that.... I do think I read virtually all of the
on-line liner notes, and so I chose a lot of what I listened to 'in depth'
based on those notes... starting with works that made use of the
fewest and simplest tools, preferably hardware over software.


--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message ...

> Folks who've not yet gotten their sets might also note that once the
> earlier sets were gone there were always folks wanting them...


And the coolest part of this is, that it appears that in better than five
years, not even one song from one disc of one set has been pirated,
cloned or otherwise turned into napster-like bubble-gum.

DM

[Rob Adelman]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> And the coolest part of this is, that it appears that in better than five
> years, not even one song from one disc of one set has been pirated,
> cloned or otherwise turned into napster-like bubble-gum.

Cool, or sad? ;)

[Carey Carlan]

Rob Adelman > wrote in
:

> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>
>> And the coolest part of this is, that it appears that in better than
>> five years, not even one song from one disc of one set has been
>> pirated, cloned or otherwise turned into napster-like bubble-gum.
>
> Cool, or sad? ;)

Necessary to the continuation of the format.

[Rob Adelman]

Carey Carlan wrote:

> Rob Adelman > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And the coolest part of this is, that it appears that in better than
>>>five years, not even one song from one disc of one set has been
>>>pirated, cloned or otherwise turned into napster-like bubble-gum.
>>
>>Cool, or sad? ;)
>
>
> Necessary to the continuation of the format.


I think you missed my point. Pirating is not really an issue for
anything but hit songs. I haven't heard all the r.a.p. cd's, but the
ones I have heard didn't contain any hit songs i.m.o.

I would love to have hit material, even if it was napster-like
bubble-gum. Would still beat my day job..

[hank alrich]

Rob Adelman wrote:

> I think you missed my point. Pirating is not really an issue for
> anything but hit songs. I haven't heard all the r.a.p. cd's, but the
> ones I have heard didn't contain any hit songs i.m.o.

I disagree, based on my own performances of two songs, "The Awakening"
and "Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll", in several settings and configs, from
solo w/acoustic gtr, to my acoustic bluesey trio and amped band. Those
get consistently good responses. I think they could go over if they
could get the big radio ear. Ain't gonna happen, but that's not the
fault of the songs.

--
ha

[Leoaw3]

David Morgan wrote:

> preferably hardware over software.

Why? Isn't the final sound the most important thing?

Do you know how many "hardware" boxes are actually A/D converters, software,
and D/A converters? Not all to be sure, but an amazing number of "hardware"
boxes these days can be totally and exactly modeled with a software plugin
because they ARE software plugins wrapped in a box.

-lee-

[hank alrich]

Leoaw3 wrote:

> David Morgan wrote:

> > preferably hardware over software.

> Why? Isn't the final sound the most important thing?

Depends. Working with hardware is more direst. Hit <Red> and roll, no
visual distraction required. Given similar sound quality lots of
tracking seems to go faster for me with hardware devices handling
routing and storage. I'm an old fart.

David has worked for ages with machinery that many computer audio
wannbees would think obsolete, 16 bit Mitsu machines and analog
consoles. He does such good work on those it keeps the wannabees wanting
to be.

--
ha

[Harvey Gerst]

(hank alrich) wrote:

>>Rob Adelman wrote:
>> I think you missed my point. Pirating is not really an issue for
>> anything but hit songs. I haven't heard all the r.a.p. cd's, but the
>> ones I have heard didn't contain any hit songs i.m.o.

>I disagree, based on my own performances of two songs, "The Awakening"
>and "Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll", in several settings and configs, from
>solo w/acoustic gtr, to my acoustic bluesey trio and amped band. Those
>get consistently good responses. I think they could go over if they
>could get the big radio ear. Ain't gonna happen, but that's not the
>fault of the songs.

A lot of my favotite songs off of "hit albums" aren't always the "hits".

"Happy Fu*king Birthday" shoulda been a hit, and a required song for EVERY bar
band to learn, in the same spirit as "Louie, Louie".

I still listen to "I'll Never Play 'Goodnight, Irene' Again" as an example of a
perfect song, recorded perfectly. Massenburg's track is a lesson to all of us as
to just how good 44.1/16 bit CD quality can be, in the hands of a master.

Okay, maybe Arny's "test tones" won't ever make the top 40 charts, but there's
so much cool **** on these compilations, they get played over and over, at least
at our house. 3 bucks a disc, for five 78 minute discs from some of my friends
and heros - with 70 pages of liner notes, explaining exactly how they recorded
this stuff? That's not worth it to some of you?

And people wonder why I get ****ed because this stuff ain't exactly rolling out
the door at a fast clip? Sheesh, have we all gotten so good, we just don't need
this kinda help anymore? So far, we've sold about 7 sets since the beginning of
February, mainly thanks to this thread. At this rate, we should be sold out by
the end of January, 2005.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[Rob Adelman]

Harvey Gerst wrote:


> Okay, maybe Arny's "test tones" won't ever make the top 40 charts, but there's
> so much cool **** on these compilations, they get played over and over, at least
> at our house. 3 bucks a disc, for five 78 minute discs from some of my friends
> and heros - with 70 pages of liner notes, explaining exactly how they recorded
> this stuff? That's not worth it to some of you?

Hey, I agree! Lots of good stuff on there. And I bought TWO sets right
when they came out. But I don't think we have to worry about any lost
revenue for any of those songs due to illegal downloading.

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Rob Adelman" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Harvey Gerst wrote:
>
>
> > Okay, maybe Arny's "test tones" won't ever make the top 40 charts, but there's
> > so much cool **** on these compilations, they get played over and over, at least
> > at our house. 3 bucks a disc, for five 78 minute discs from some of my friends
> > and heros - with 70 pages of liner notes, explaining exactly how they recorded
> > this stuff? That's not worth it to some of you?
>
> Hey, I agree! Lots of good stuff on there. And I bought TWO sets right
> when they came out. But I don't think we have to worry about any lost
> revenue for any of those songs due to illegal downloading.
>


I'd be pretty certain that I wasn't the only one who had to pay for
clearance. Somebody's worried, somewhere.... ;-)

[Rob Adelman]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

>
> I'd be pretty certain that I wasn't the only one who had to pay for
> clearance. Somebody's worried, somewhere.... ;-)


Hopeful thinking? ;)

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Leoaw3" > wrote in message ...
> David Morgan wrote:
>
> > preferably hardware over software.
>
> Why? Isn't the final sound the most important thing?

As a listener, perhaps. But if looking for technical ability and good
deployment and use of the tools at hand, perhaps not. That's what
I think these sets are really all about. Sure, the music can be great,
but the point seems to be in discovering, "Gee, how did he do that ?"

Actually, that was my initial approach this time because I have a sad
case of, "The recording studio business is crumbling around me".
I was interested in what people were doing with the fewest available
tools, because they are a dissappearing breed, as are some of their
tools. The middle-market studios are falling like rain to the bedrooms,
basements and garages of the world... it's a strange feeling indeed.

I kinda' favor simplicity, too, which relies even more heavily on the
'talent' that's on the other side of the mics than gear quality.


> Do you know how many "hardware" boxes are actually A/D converters,
> software, and D/A converters?

Of course, but do you know how few of those I have? It seems like the
cheaper, newer, so called hardware boxes, have an immense number
of nearly superfluous (IMO) digital gazintas and gazoutas.


> Not all to be sure, but an amazing number of "hardware" boxes
> these days can be totally and exactly modeled with a software plugin
> because they ARE software plugins wrapped in a box.

Not all to be sure. <g> Most of my effects boxes are digital, some are
not. None of my dynamics processors are digital - lest I confuse digital
with solid state. Some are simply digitally controlled analogue devices
that mix the best of the two worlds.

I don't buy a whole lot of the concept of "plug-ins" in general (yet), let alone
considering that it's only a mathematic algorithm that consumes 12 or so
pounds in a 17.5 x 10 x 2" metal wrapper. I see things like transformers
and components on circuit boards, and because I do have a wee bit of
electronics background, can understand how that algorithm (plug-in) likely
can *not* do certain things... so they keep working on more little pieces of
mathematics to continue to *try* to 'simulate' the real thing. Maybe someday.

Don't get me wrong... I'm an old flatulent that's just getting the hang of the
"plug-in" generation. I've been into digital audio for over 17 years, but I've
been into software plug-ins for less than that many weeks in total. By the
way, so far the only suite of plugs that has truly impressed me is the Waves
stuff... but I have a very long way to go.

With 17(+) years of recording onto digital machines and editing in the
digital realm, one might think I would have jumped right into the 100%
computer (or HD based) recording world, but I didn't. I worked along
side of many who did go the route of software when the craze first started,
and I still felt there were just some little, almost undefinable differences
that I wasn't ready to give up. I've still got plenty of samples of live to
2-track recordings that were taken directly from the FOH mix in various
live venues, (yes, *clones* of the stereo FOH) that can beat some of my
more intricate studio work. I tend to hang on to these memories and thus
have developed a resistance to some of these changes.

I'll probably go back to the compilations again soon, doing the exact
opposite, by looking for and listening to work done solely in workstations
or with mostly software. After all, I have to get a grip or be left behind.

> -lee-

Thanks for the wake-up. :-) I just hope that before you write off
certain facets of recording as antiquated or cumbersome, that you
have had the pleasure of truly enjoying what there is to be had in the
way of experience & satisfaction from working in the 'hardware' world.
Trust me.... it's tough to say goodbye to a measurable, comparable
aspect of a 'known' experience.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message ...

> worked for ages with machinery that many computer audio
> wannbees would think obsolete

Think? <blushes>

[Harvey Gerst]

>Rob Adelman > wrote:

>>David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>> I'd be pretty certain that I wasn't the only one who had to pay for
>> clearance. Somebody's worried, somewhere.... ;-)

>Hopeful thinking? ;)

I can assure you that all necessary clearances were obtained or waived by the
individuals that could legally waive them. This has been true since the first
r.a.p. set. Lotsa long distance phone calls involved.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[Rob Adelman]

Harvey Gerst wrote:

> I can assure you that all necessary clearances were obtained or waived by the
> individuals that could legally waive them. This has been true since the first
> r.a.p. set. Lotsa long distance phone calls involved.

I have no doubt. Sorry, I don't speak too clearly sometimes. I was
trying to say that unless a song is out in the market actually selling
some numbers of units, the clearances, copyrights, etc. really become a
bit of a moot point.

[Paul Gitlitz]

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:56:21 -0500, "Roger W. Norman"
> wrote:

>I've even considered picking up a turntable again just to buy the RAP vinyl.
>Don't know where I'm going to put it...
Yeah, I've got one and no place to put it as well. It lives at home in
the closet.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I was
> trying to say that unless a song is out in the market actually selling
> some numbers of units, the clearances, copyrights, etc. really become a
> bit of a moot point.

Not to those who wish that their songs were out there and actually
selling some number of units. Money is money.

If you record a band's original song in your studio and want to submit
this recording for a r.a.p. compilation, chances are pretty good that
the band (or copyright owner) will grant you a limited license for
free. But if you've recorded a band (or yourself) performing a well
established pop standard, you'd better get the clearnace and pay the
fee. It's not much, but it's not trivial either. The consequences of
getting caught can be more financially painful.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Ryan]

Harvey,

I wonder if you have noticed a small jump in sales because of this
thread. I know I bought because of it, as well as the guy from the
Netherlands, I believe. How would you feel about posting a monthly
thread about it? Just a little spiel that gets posted every month.
When I first heard about the "Fifth of RAP" comp., via your signature,
I thought you were some sorta of rap music producer (Ice Cube, NWA,
etc.) I think the majority of users here simply don't know it exists.

[Harvey Gerst]

(Ryan) wrote:

>Harvey,
>
>I wonder if you have noticed a small jump in sales because of this
>thread. I know I bought because of it, as well as the guy from the
>Netherlands, I believe. How would you feel about posting a monthly
>thread about it? Just a little spiel that gets posted every month.
>When I first heard about the "Fifth of RAP" comp., via your signature,
>I thought you were some sorta of rap music producer (Ice Cube, NWA,
>etc.) I think the majority of users here simply don't know it exists.

There was a small jump of about 7 or 8 orders as a result of this thread,
compared to just about no orders in January.

I've only done one rap album in my entire life (for a local Dallas group), and I
thought it turned out well.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> It's not much, but it's not trivial either. The consequences of
> getting caught can be more financially painful.

The whole song roaylty thing is that a penny earned is a penny earned.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Ryan wrote:

> Harvey,
>
> I wonder if you have noticed a small jump in sales because of this
> thread. I know I bought because of it, as well as the guy from the
> Netherlands, I believe. How would you feel about posting a monthly
> thread about it?

He tried that; people go ttired of seeing it and put it into their
killfiels. <g>

> Just a little spiel that gets posted every month.
> When I first heard about the "Fifth of RAP" comp., via your signature,
> I thought you were some sorta of rap music producer

_Frank Hamilton "Gets DOWN Bubba Thunk Bubba Thunk"_

> (Ice Cube, NWA,
> etc.) I think the majority of users here simply don't know it exists.

Then we must have thousands of intermittent lurkers. <g>

--
ha

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Rob Adelman" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Harvey Gerst wrote:
>
> > I can assure you that all necessary clearances were obtained or waived by the
> > individuals that could legally waive them. This has been true since the first
> > r.a.p. set. Lotsa long distance phone calls involved.

> I have no doubt. Sorry, I don't speak too clearly sometimes. I was
> trying to say that unless a song is out in the market actually selling
> some numbers of units, the clearances, copyrights, etc. really become a
> bit of a moot point.


I don't mean to disagree with you Rob, I just think that you may be
overlooking something.

One of my submissions to the Bohemian R.A.P.CD was authored
by Harry Ruby, Bert Kalmar & Oscar Hammerstein 2d - - and has
been recorded countless times by a number of top singers, including
Louis Armstrong, Tony Bennett, Bing Crosby, The Jimmy Dorsey Orch.,
Charlie Byrd, KD Lang & many others.

It's even listed with the Harry Fox Agency now under the singer of my
cut's name and the CD name of "Bohemian R.A.P. CD". (Surprise!)
The song was, "A Kiss To Build A Dream On".

My contribution to the last compilation was written by Jimmy Van Heusen
and Johnny Mercer - - It's been recorded by Billie Holiday, Oscar Peterson,
Perry Como, Bennie Goodman Orch., Count Basie, Branford Marsalis,
Carmen McRae, Dave Brubeck, Diane Schuur, Dinah Washington,
Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra, Jackie Gleason, Kieth Jarrett, Liz Story,
Mel Torme, Miles Davis, Shirley Horn, Stan Getz, Charlie Byrd, Tommy
Dorsey and a *whole lot* more. The song was an instrumental swing
version of, "I Thought About You". (Tracked totally live but for one single
overdub).

Not wanting to consider any of these 'players' as not having been "out in
the market actually selling some numbers" <g>, I think it's best that I
followed the proceedure for getting clearance..... don't you? ;-)

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Rob Adelman]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> Not wanting to consider any of these 'players' as not having been "out in
> the market actually selling some numbers" <g>, I think it's best that I
> followed the proceedure for getting clearance..... don't you? ;-)

Yes, I wasn't thinking of the reverse situation, as in the cases you
mentioned. I was only thinking of someone pirating the actually cut off
the r.a.p. cd. My bad..

[Ryan]

(hank alrich) wrote in message

> > How would you feel about posting a monthly
> > thread about it?
>
> He tried that; people go ttired of seeing it and put it into their
> killfiels. <g>

If people get tired of it and decide to put it in their kill fields,
than that's their decision and it surely dosen't hurt anybody.
Obviously they must have read it a couple of times if they decided to
block it out. So once they get the message, of course they can kill
it. But it's the people who have no idea about it that we could reach
this way. I know I had no idea about the RAP CDs before this thread,
nor the website, which has a lot of very well written, very
educational info on it. There's that guy who posts monthly about
"ambisonic surround," he doesn't seem to get any flames. I think this
would be a good tactic. Really, how else are people supposed to find
out about it? If you wanna sell these things, a little bit of
advertising would go a long way.

[Harvey Gerst]

(Ryan) wrote:

>> (hank alrich) wrote in message
>> He tried that; people go ttired of seeing it and put it into their
>> killfiels. <g>

>If people get tired of it and decide to put it in their kill fields,
>than that's their decision and it surely dosen't hurt anybody.
>Obviously they must have read it a couple of times if they decided to
>block it out. So once they get the message, of course they can kill
>it. But it's the people who have no idea about it that we could reach
>this way. I know I had no idea about the RAP CDs before this thread,
>nor the website, which has a lot of very well written, very
>educational info on it. There's that guy who posts monthly about
>"ambisonic surround," he doesn't seem to get any flames. I think this
>would be a good tactic. Really, how else are people supposed to find
>out about it? If you wanna sell these things, a little bit of
>advertising would go a long way.

Maybe the RAP compilation set got a bad rap because of the name. Maybe people
are missing the set (and even this thread) because they think it's about "rap"
music, rather than standing for "RecAudioPro", the newsgroup's compilation.
Maybe we should start a thread called, The 5-disc rec.audio.pro music
compilation set is now available"?

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[hank alrich]

Ryan wrote:

(hank alrich) wrote in message

> > > How would you feel about posting a monthly
> > > thread about it?

> > He tried that; people go ttired of seeing it and put it into their
> > killfiels. <g>

> If people get tired of it and decide to put it in their kill fields,
> than that's their decision and it surely dosen't hurt anybody.

I figure you're new here; that's the only reason anybody would take me
seriously. And I should have typed "killfiles". (That's what a hard
drive does when it dies.)

> Obviously they must have read it a couple of times if they decided to
> block it out. So once they get the message, of course they can kill
> it. But it's the people who have no idea about it that we could reach
> this way. I know I had no idea about the RAP CDs before this thread,
> nor the website, which has a lot of very well written, very
> educational info on it.

Well, Harvey has this .sig file at the bottom of his posts and he
sometimes posts here.

> There's that guy who posts monthly about
> "ambisonic surround," he doesn't seem to get any flames

I haven't seen his posts is years. He's still doing that, eh? You'd
think by now he'd have blisters.

> I think this
> would be a good tactic. Really, how else are people supposed to find
> out about it? If you wanna sell these things, a little bit of
> advertising would go a long way.

But how many folks will it reach if it's posted once a month and newbies
arrive and leave within a week or two?

Spam your friends about it; that's the ticket. <g> (Please, do not do
that...)

--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Rob Adelman" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>
> > Not wanting to consider any of these 'players' as not having been "out in
> > the market actually selling some numbers" <g>, I think it's best that I
> > followed the proceedure for getting clearance..... don't you? ;-)
>
> Yes, I wasn't thinking of the reverse situation, as in the cases you
> mentioned. I was only thinking of someone pirating the actually cut off
> the r.a.p. cd. My bad..


Understood. I sorta' doubt the submitted versions of either of these tunes
would end up in big demand on Kazaa.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Vladan]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:17:22 -0500, "Steve Holt"
> wrote:

>Funny how that works. Everyone wants to be on the CD, but not too many want
>to buy one.
>Everyone likes to talk, but not many like to listen.

That's why I bought 3 sets.