side chaining on a DAW

[2mb]

anyone,
I have a DAW but it doesn't do side chaining. Is there a dirty trick for
pulling this off with such a DAW?

My interim solution was simply inserting the desired effect, bouncing the
effected track to another channel, bypassing or removing the effect, and
mixing the dry signal with the effected print in the DAW.

Or to eliminate the "effect changes are a real pain in the ass factor" that
I experienced, you could simply make a copy of the dry signal and effect the
copy, and mixing the effected copy with the dry original in real time (I was
out of CPU)

Assuming that the dry and print are synched correctly, any difference in the
end result of doing things this way vs. "real" side chaining?

I have gotten great results with drums and vocals by doing this, but was
wondering if I was missing something that could make it even better.

My EP is already being mastered, but there is always the next one: )

I made a marginal vocal, recorded under poor conditions (but acceptible, the
singer seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, so never came back
to finish), sound fantastic with this method, so was wondering if there was
anything to this, or if I just got lucky.

It certainly is a lot more work than straight up side chaining on a capable
mixer, but if it is a legitimate substitute for side chaining, I would
rather mix right in my computer and save my cable, console, and 3 x 8
channel interface money for that TC Electronic and/or Creamware DSP hardware
I am eyeballing: )


l8,
2mb

[Brian Huether]

The Waves C1 plugin can do sidechaining. But the implementation is quite
odd. If you have this plug and really want to know how to best use it for
this purpose, I can post detailed instructions (it involves, insert effect
paths, send effects paths, group channels, track channels, and proper
panning (which with Cubase SX requires a free panning plugin!)

I think there are free plugs too. Just go on cubase.net forums or nuendo.com
and search for sidechain and you will see what others recommend.

-brian

"2mb" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> anyone,
> I have a DAW but it doesn't do side chaining. Is there a dirty trick for
> pulling this off with such a DAW?
>
> My interim solution was simply inserting the desired effect, bouncing the
> effected track to another channel, bypassing or removing the effect, and
> mixing the dry signal with the effected print in the DAW.
>
> Or to eliminate the "effect changes are a real pain in the ass factor"
that
> I experienced, you could simply make a copy of the dry signal and effect
the
> copy, and mixing the effected copy with the dry original in real time (I
was
> out of CPU)
>
> Assuming that the dry and print are synched correctly, any difference in
the
> end result of doing things this way vs. "real" side chaining?
>
> I have gotten great results with drums and vocals by doing this, but was
> wondering if I was missing something that could make it even better.
>
> My EP is already being mastered, but there is always the next one: )
>
> I made a marginal vocal, recorded under poor conditions (but acceptible,
the
> singer seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, so never came back
> to finish), sound fantastic with this method, so was wondering if there
was
> anything to this, or if I just got lucky.
>
> It certainly is a lot more work than straight up side chaining on a
capable
> mixer, but if it is a legitimate substitute for side chaining, I would
> rather mix right in my computer and save my cable, console, and 3 x 8
> channel interface money for that TC Electronic and/or Creamware DSP
hardware
> I am eyeballing: )
>
>
> l8,
> 2mb
>
>

[Mike Rivers]

In article .net> writes:

> I have a DAW but it doesn't do side chaining. Is there a dirty trick for
> pulling this off with such a DAW?
>
> My interim solution was simply inserting the desired effect, bouncing the
> effected track to another channel, bypassing or removing the effect, and
> mixing the dry signal with the effected print in the DAW.

I think that you're confusing terms here. The sidechain is the part
of a compressor circuit that provides the information to the gain
control element. By inserting an equalizer in the sidechain path, you
can make the gain control function frequency sensitive.

From your description of what you're doing, I think you're talking
about a wet/dry mix, that allows you to adjust the amount of an effect
applied to a track. The way to do that is pretty much like you're
doing it, though there might be a slightly simpler procedure. You
could make a copy of the "dry" track, apply the effect to the copy,
and then mix the dry and effected copy to taste. The level of the
effected copy is like the "reverb return" on a conventional console.

If you want to apply an effect to a group of tracks, for instance
apply the same reverb program to your drum tracks, you can bounce a
mix of the drum tracks to one or two new tracks, apply the reverb to
those new mixed tracks, then adjust the level of the reverb on the
drums by blending in as much of that "fully wet" track or tracks. But
I'll concur that it's a pain to make changes, for instance if you want
more reverb on the snare than the toms - you need to do a new mix and
apply the reverb again.

That being said (and I don't know since I don't use those tools) I'm
surprised that there isn't essentially a wet/dry parameter that you
can adjust when applying an effect to a track. Unless they just expect
you to use it in the way I've described.

> you could simply make a copy of the dry signal and effect the
> copy, and mixing the effected copy with the dry original in real time (I was
> out of CPU)

This is the biggest problem with a DAW - there's always the potential
for running out of CPU power. You know what to do in that case -
replace the motherboard with a faster one.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[reddred]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1069850572k@trad...
>
> In article .net>
writes:

> I'll concur that it's a pain to make changes, for instance if you want
> more reverb on the snare than the toms - you need to do a new mix and
> apply the reverb again.
>
> That being said (and I don't know since I don't use those tools) I'm
> surprised that there isn't essentially a wet/dry parameter that you
> can adjust when applying an effect to a track. Unless they just expect
> you to use it in the way I've described.
>

There is a wet/dry mix on my sonic foundry plugs, though some of the others
are missing this essential thing. I still do it the other way, because for
some reason I get a beefier sound. What else are 48 tracks for, anyway?

As far as sidechaining, if anybody out there wants to explain how I can duck
without going to outboard then back, I'd be happy to hear it. I'm starting
to think the people that write the audio software have never been inside a
studio.

jb


> > you could simply make a copy of the dry signal and effect the
> > copy, and mixing the effected copy with the dry original in real time (I
was
> > out of CPU)
>
> This is the biggest problem with a DAW - there's always the potential
> for running out of CPU power. You know what to do in that case -
> replace the motherboard with a faster one.
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[BananaHead]

"2mb" > wrote in message .net>...
> anyone,
> I have a DAW but it doesn't do side chaining. Is there a dirty trick for
> pulling this off with such a DAW?
>


Nope. We've been over this a billion times on the Nuendo board.
There are plugin developers that make stuff, but no real way to
hotwire it.

Yesterday I was using radical automation settings to pull down the hat
every time the kick was hit on a hip hop drum loop. Couldn't even
hear the compression working!

-bh

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"BananaHead" > wrote in message
om...
> "2mb" > wrote in message
.net>...
> > anyone,
> > I have a DAW but it doesn't do side chaining. Is there a dirty trick for
> > pulling this off with such a DAW?
> >
>
>
> Nope. We've been over this a billion times on the Nuendo board.
> There are plugin developers that make stuff, but no real way to
> hotwire it.
>

Right. The plugin has to be written for it. I'm surprised by how much stuff
is missing from DAW programs and that apparently most people don't even miss
it not being there. But that's because they've never used it before. A lot
of these people have never used a hardware board. A lot of people on
Cakewalk thought I was a nut for always complaining that there was no (until
this latest version 3.0) stereo buss or true subgroups. They couldn't see
what possible use it could be because they'd never seen it before. Same with
sidechaining. That said I'm aware of two DX plugins that can do it. One is
actually from Cakewalk but it's mono only and you use one side of stereo
track to control the other. Awkward but for what it is, it works. The other
is from here: http://www.db-audioware.com/dbd.htm

[2mb]

thx for the clarification on what side chaining really means.

neil


"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1069850572k@trad...
>
> In article .net>
writes:
>
> > I have a DAW but it doesn't do side chaining. Is there a dirty trick for
> > pulling this off with such a DAW?
> >
> > My interim solution was simply inserting the desired effect, bouncing
the
> > effected track to another channel, bypassing or removing the effect, and
> > mixing the dry signal with the effected print in the DAW.
>
> I think that you're confusing terms here. The sidechain is the part
> of a compressor circuit that provides the information to the gain
> control element. By inserting an equalizer in the sidechain path, you
> can make the gain control function frequency sensitive.
>
> From your description of what you're doing, I think you're talking
> about a wet/dry mix, that allows you to adjust the amount of an effect
> applied to a track. The way to do that is pretty much like you're
> doing it, though there might be a slightly simpler procedure. You
> could make a copy of the "dry" track, apply the effect to the copy,
> and then mix the dry and effected copy to taste. The level of the
> effected copy is like the "reverb return" on a conventional console.
>
> If you want to apply an effect to a group of tracks, for instance
> apply the same reverb program to your drum tracks, you can bounce a
> mix of the drum tracks to one or two new tracks, apply the reverb to
> those new mixed tracks, then adjust the level of the reverb on the
> drums by blending in as much of that "fully wet" track or tracks. But
> I'll concur that it's a pain to make changes, for instance if you want
> more reverb on the snare than the toms - you need to do a new mix and
> apply the reverb again.
>
> That being said (and I don't know since I don't use those tools) I'm
> surprised that there isn't essentially a wet/dry parameter that you
> can adjust when applying an effect to a track. Unless they just expect
> you to use it in the way I've described.
>
> > you could simply make a copy of the dry signal and effect the
> > copy, and mixing the effected copy with the dry original in real time (I
was
> > out of CPU)
>
> This is the biggest problem with a DAW - there's always the potential
> for running out of CPU power. You know what to do in that case -
> replace the motherboard with a faster one.
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo