Best Harmonica Mic?

[PeteL]

Hi,

I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
harmonicas.

I finally came to realize it needed some distortion,so I ran it
through my guitar amp and miked the cab.
Pretty close to the sound I'm after.

Right now I'm using a really cheap dynamic though,and I would like to
get something better.
I am holding the mic cupped in my hands,with the harp right on the
grill.

What would be the best mic to do this,a 57 or 58 perhaps?



I recently saw John Popper using a dynamic on his harp.

On the body of the mic he had something small and rectangular taped
right below the grill.
Anybody know what that might be?

Thanks as always,
Pete

[Rob Adelman]

The Shure Green Bullet has always been very popular for this:

<http://www.microphonessolution.com/shure520dx.html>


PeteL wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
> harmonicas.
>
> I finally came to realize it needed some distortion,so I ran it
> through my guitar amp and miked the cab.
> Pretty close to the sound I'm after.
>
> Right now I'm using a really cheap dynamic though,and I would like to
> get something better.
> I am holding the mic cupped in my hands,with the harp right on the
> grill.
>
> What would be the best mic to do this,a 57 or 58 perhaps?
>
>
>
> I recently saw John Popper using a dynamic on his harp.
>
> On the body of the mic he had something small and rectangular taped
> right below the grill.
> Anybody know what that might be?
>
> Thanks as always,
> Pete

[ryanm]

"PeteL" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
> harmonicas.
>
> What would be the best mic to do this,a 57 or 58 perhaps?
>
I use the Shure Green Bullet (~$100 at GC). I also struggled for a long
time with feedback, because good mics for harp are always very hot (part of
what gives you the good overdrive that you want, rather than a "fuzzy"
pedal-type distortion). The problem is that if the amp is behind you within
about 15 feet (along the backline), and you cup the mic in your hands,
feedback is almost guaranteed if you have the amp up to usable volume. I
tried repositioning the amp, I tried using smaller and smaller amps (until I
was down to a Fender Pro Junior), etc, until I was about to give up. Then I
tried a Line 6 POD. I really don't like the way these things sound on
guitars (rather unlike a real amp, IMO), but for the harmonica it was close
enough to be worth never having to worry about feedback again. I bought the
AM4 stomp box ($250), which lets you set up 4 preset amp models, and set up
a warm and mostly-clean but with a little bit of drive preset (which I use
most of the time) and an over-driven preset (think ZZ Top's Waitin' For The
Bus harp solo or Blackfoot's Train Train harp sound). Here's a clip (not
great, but you can hear the tone) of my costly-clean sound (about 900k):

www.horsefish.net/music/dice_harp.mp3

I'm using the green bullet into the AM4, which goes direct to the pa
with harp in my monitor. You can hear a bit of distortion creeping in at
times, but it's mostly clean. The other preset is pretty overdriven and
sounds a lot like the ZZ Top song I mentioned. I think the clean tone was
the POD "Tweed 410" patch (supposed to be a Bassman head) tweaked until I
liked it, and the more distorted one was the "Plexi 50" patch (supposed to
be a non-master Marshall plexi 50 watt head) tweaked until I liked it.

ryanm

BTW: I don't claim to be more than a passable cross-harp player, but since
we only have 3 songs with harp in it, all of which are fairly simple, I
don't have to be. If we ever added a song that was difficult to play I might
actually practice now and then. <g>

[Twist Turner]

It depends on what kind of dirty sound you are looking for. For a
person that really hates harmonicas, I have played and recorded with
literally hundreds of harp players.

Most guys who want a really dirty sound use an Astatic JT30 and they
prefer the crystal cartridge which is no longer made. Very few use a
Green Bullet, off the top of my head Sugar Blue is the only one I can
think of who uses one. I hate the sound of both the Astatic and the
Green Bullet, but if total distortion is your thing, knock your self
out.

When I was working with Jr. Wells he always just played using the PA
vocal mic which was usually some form of pre SM58 shure ball mic. To me
this is a much better sound, but for some reason harp players seem to
think they need tons of distortion to sound good. I think they just use
it to hide poor technique.

If you want something totally different Big Leon Brooks aways used a
cheap little white plastic mic that came with a $20 cassette recorder,
it sounded great when he played it, but then again it sounded great with
no mic at all too.



Twist Turner
http://tinyurl.com/ul70

[ryanm]

"Twist Turner" > wrote in message
...
>
> When I was working with Jr. Wells he always just played using the PA
> vocal mic which was usually some form of pre SM58 shure ball mic. To me
> this is a much better sound, but for some reason harp players seem to
> think they need tons of distortion to sound good. I think they just use
> it to hide poor technique.
>
The vocal mic works, but is usually not set up for harp, which is really
loud, bright, and harsh. If your sound guy isn't on the ball, your crowd
will lose hearing on the first few notes. I like a tube amp for harp, but
then feedback is an issue (unless the amp is in another room). I also agree
that people use distortion to hide bad technique, particularly players like
me. <g> However, you can also use distortion for effect, particularly when
you're in a cover band and you need to play the solo to Waitin' For The Bus,
like I do. <eg>

ryanm

[John L Rice]

"ryanm" > wrote in message
...
> "PeteL" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
> > harmonicas.
> >
> > What would be the best mic to do this,a 57 or 58 perhaps?
> >
> I use the Shure Green Bullet (~$100 at GC). I also struggled for a
long
> time with feedback, because good mics for harp are always very hot (part
of
> what gives you the good overdrive that you want, rather than a "fuzzy"
> pedal-type distortion). The problem is that if the amp is behind you
within
> about 15 feet (along the backline), and you cup the mic in your hands,
> feedback is almost guaranteed if you have the amp up to usable volume. I
> tried repositioning the amp, I tried using smaller and smaller amps (until
I
> was down to a Fender Pro Junior), etc, until I was about to give up. Then
I
> tried a Line 6 POD. I really don't like the way these things sound on
> guitars (rather unlike a real amp, IMO), but for the harmonica it was
close
> enough to be worth never having to worry about feedback again. I bought
the
> AM4 stomp box ($250), which lets you set up 4 preset amp models, and set
up
> a warm and mostly-clean but with a little bit of drive preset (which I use
> most of the time) and an over-driven preset (think ZZ Top's Waitin' For
The
> Bus harp solo or Blackfoot's Train Train harp sound). Here's a clip (not
> great, but you can hear the tone) of my costly-clean sound (about 900k):
>
> www.horsefish.net/music/dice_harp.mp3
>
> I'm using the green bullet into the AM4, which goes direct to the pa
> with harp in my monitor. You can hear a bit of distortion creeping in at
> times, but it's mostly clean. The other preset is pretty overdriven and
> sounds a lot like the ZZ Top song I mentioned. I think the clean tone was
> the POD "Tweed 410" patch (supposed to be a Bassman head) tweaked until I
> liked it, and the more distorted one was the "Plexi 50" patch (supposed to
> be a non-master Marshall plexi 50 watt head) tweaked until I liked it.
>
> ryanm
>
> BTW: I don't claim to be more than a passable cross-harp player, but since
> we only have 3 songs with harp in it, all of which are fairly simple, I
> don't have to be. If we ever added a song that was difficult to play I
might
> actually practice now and then. <g>
>

Pretty darn good considering you don't practice! ;-) keep it up man!

John L Rice

[Nathan Eldred]

I'm partial to ribbon mics on harmonica myself, they tame the scratchy
high mids. The Royer SF-1 & AEA R84 both work great and sound quite
natural.

Nathan Eldred
http://www.atlasproaudio.com


(PeteL) wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
> I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
> harmonicas.
>
> I finally came to realize it needed some distortion,so I ran it
> through my guitar amp and miked the cab.
> Pretty close to the sound I'm after.
>
> Right now I'm using a really cheap dynamic though,and I would like to
> get something better.
> I am holding the mic cupped in my hands,with the harp right on the
> grill.
>
> What would be the best mic to do this,a 57 or 58 perhaps?
>
>
>
> I recently saw John Popper using a dynamic on his harp.
>
> On the body of the mic he had something small and rectangular taped
> right below the grill.
> Anybody know what that might be?
>
> Thanks as always,
> Pete

[Dave Martin]

"Nathan Eldred" > wrote in message
m...
> I'm partial to ribbon mics on harmonica myself, they tame the scratchy
> high mids. The Royer SF-1 & AEA R84 both work great and sound quite
> natural.
>
Yep - I used an R84 on bass harmonica this morning - very sweet, though the
player was shocked at how far away he could stand...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[~ rob ~]

"PeteL" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi,
>
> I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
> harmonicas.
>
> I finally came to realize it needed some distortion,so I ran it
> through my guitar amp and miked the cab.
> Pretty close to the sound I'm after.
>
> Right now I'm using a really cheap dynamic though,and I would like to
> get something better.
> I am holding the mic cupped in my hands,with the harp right on the
> grill.
>
> What would be the best mic to do this,a 57 or 58 perhaps?
>
>
>
> I recently saw John Popper using a dynamic on his harp.
>
> On the body of the mic he had something small and rectangular taped
> right below the grill.
> Anybody know what that might be?
>
> Thanks as always,
> Pete
-------------------
Y' just gotta know how a 57 handles.....

Drop it a few times and see if it's what you're after.

Ours sounded cooler once we dropped it out of the van, right onto the
freeway. Twice.

-bg-

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[Kurt Riemann]

Find yourself an old Shure Green Bullet. They sound like **** on
everything else, but on Harp it is the sound you want. Right away.

After ten Harp albums, we've found that everything else sounds like a
Girl Scout campfire sing-along.

The Bullet is just plain IT.



Kurt Riemann

[jspartz]

In article >, Kurt Riemann says...
>
>Find yourself an old Shure Green Bullet. They sound like **** on
>everything else, but on Harp it is the sound you want. Right away.
>
>After ten Harp albums, we've found that everything else sounds like a
>Girl Scout campfire sing-along.
>
>The Bullet is just plain IT.
>
>
>
>Kurt Riemann


I think the Astatic JT-30 is in the same ball park as the green bullet.

Jason Spartz

Web: www.mudstonemusic.com
E-mail:

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I'm partial to ribbon mics on harmonica myself, they tame the scratchy
> high mids. The Royer SF-1 & AEA R84 both work great and sound quite
> natural.

That's probalby a good choice if you're recording Larry Adler or Toots
Thielmans or The Harmonicats. If you're recording Junior Wells, you
want a high output high impedance mic that will overdrive the input of
a Fender amplifier just like a guitar. Blues harmonica players tend to
hear themselves as honking sax players, not smooth organ players.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Scott Dorsey]

Dave Martin > wrote:
>"Nathan Eldred" > wrote in message
m...
>> I'm partial to ribbon mics on harmonica myself, they tame the scratchy
>> high mids. The Royer SF-1 & AEA R84 both work great and sound quite
>> natural.
>>
>Yep - I used an R84 on bass harmonica this morning - very sweet, though the
>player was shocked at how far away he could stand...

Shure 315 and SM33 used to be very popular for harmonica work; Dick Gardiner
from the Harmonicats is still supporting the things, too.

The PL-10 and RE-20 are also not half bad.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[P Stamler]

Also, Peter "Madcat" Ruth has designed a couple of microphones for harp-playing
that sound fantastic. At least, when he plays them they do. Elderly Instruments
carries them, among other places.

Peace,
Paul

[Peter L. Pollack]

In article >,
says...
> Hi,
>
> I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
> harmonicas.
>
> I finally came to realize it needed some distortion,so I ran it
> through my guitar amp and miked the cab.
> Pretty close to the sound I'm after.

No one else will mention this mic, I guarantee it. Shure PE-588. No
longer made, but it has a switch (which can be handy live), and if you
can find one and plug it into an early-'65 Vibro-Champ, you may be as
pleased with the sound as I am.

-Pete Pollack

[Rich]

Nathan sez:
>I'm partial to ribbon mics on harmonica myself, they tame the scratchy
>high mids. The Royer SF-1 & AEA R84 both work great and sound quite
>natural.

I know this doesn't help the original poster, but I recently mic'd a player
looking for the Toots Thielmans type sound rather than the harsher blusey
thang.

I tried a TLM 103 (OK, bad idea) a Royer 121, and a Coles 4038. The Coles was
very nice (with a pop screen) but better yet was a Senn 441 - especially thru
the Great River NV. Surprised me. This player uses the same mic on his live
gigs - so if it's in your kit, give it a try.

Best...
Rich
Stolen Moments Audio

http://members.aol.com/stomoaudio

"Practice." --- Fletcher (Mar 15, 1999 11:44 AM)

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> better yet was a Senn 441 - especially thru
> the Great River NV. Surprised me. This player uses the same mic on his live
> gigs - so if it's in your kit, give it a try.

I always ask what the player normally uses. If he told me that he had
a 441 that he used on stage, I'd have tried that first (if I didn't
have one, which I don't, I'd ask him to bring his to the session).

If it was a traditional classical guitar player and he said "Oh, I
just have this old Radio Shack mic" I might try something in my
colletion first, but for something where the sound is unique, chances
are the player has given it some thought. Mics used for live sound
don't always work in the studio, but often they work well enough so
that you put the player in front of something he already knows how to
work, get a good sound, and move ahead.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[PeteL]

Peter L. Pollack > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have been working on achieving a dirty blues sound from my
> > harmonicas.
> >
> > I finally came to realize it needed some distortion,so I ran it
> > through my guitar amp and miked the cab.
> > Pretty close to the sound I'm after.
>
> No one else will mention this mic, I guarantee it. Shure PE-588. No
> longer made, but it has a switch (which can be handy live), and if you
> can find one and plug it into an early-'65 Vibro-Champ, you may be as
> pleased with the sound as I am.
>
> -Pete Pollack
>


Thanks very much for all the great suggestions!
This will sure give me a place to start.

I found a place that still sells the Astatic JT-30 new.
It's probably going to be either that or the Green Bullet.

Right in my ballpark,pricewise.

Is there a much difference between the two?
The Bullet is much easier to find around here.

Ryanm-I checked out your link,some really fine harp playing there!
That's definitly the sound I'm going for.

I have an old J-station laying around,I'll have to try out your suggested setup.
Never thought of that one,thanks.

What kind of harp do you like,I'm using Hohner Blues.



I appreciate all the help.

Thanks as always,
Pete

[ryanm]

"John L Rice" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Pretty darn good considering you don't practice! ;-) keep it up man!
>
Nah... I'm in a rut. I only have about 6 licks that I know, and the rest
is just me blowing BS. I can't play straight harp to save my life. There are
several brick walls you'll run into trying to learn harp. Most people never
get past the first one (which is why what I do is impressive to most people,
they can't do it). I broke through the first wall, which is learning to
bend, but then I started playing congas and kind of put the harp down
indefinitely. I don't have any harp heroes to worship and emulate, so I
don't spend any time on it. My 6 licks work for what I'm doing, but one of
these days I'll actually spend some time on it and learn how to play the
damn thing for real.

ryanm

[ryanm]

"PeteL" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ryanm-I checked out your link,some really fine harp playing there!
> That's definitly the sound I'm going for.
>
> I have an old J-station laying around,I'll have to try out your suggested
setup.
> Never thought of that one,thanks.
>
> What kind of harp do you like,I'm using Hohner Blues.
>
I use those also. I don't like plastic harps (like the Lee Oskar), they
don't get the sound I like, although other people swear by them, and being
the hack that I am you probably shouldn't give any more weight to my opinion
than anyone else's.

The POD was, I believe, suggested by someone on this forum a year or so
ago. Sitting in your room it won't sound quite like you want it to, but in
the mix with other instruments it's close enough for rock-n-roll. I haven't
used the J-station, so I can't say how that will work, but the concept is
sound, at any rate.

I achieved a cool recorded overdriven harp sound one time using the
green bullet into a dimed Pignose (the one with the 6" speaker), miced with
an sm57. If I ever had a moment of coolness playing the harp, this would've
been it. Unfortunately, it should probably be considered a low point in all
other aspects. : )

Let me preface this clip with my excuse. I came home from a gig late one
night, listening to Sabbath all the way home. We had been drinking shots of
Patron Silver (I lost count at 12 shots), and I only know how the signal
chain was because it was still hooked up the next morning. Anyway, when I
got home I was thinking how cool it would be to do all the Ozzy-era Sabbath
as blues tunes (I know, I know), so I apparently started that night, and the
result (it's a big file, almost 10 megs):

http://www.horsefish.net/music/paranoid.mp3

Ingore the vocals, please, I had already done a 4.5 hour show that
night, and followed that up with way too much alcohol. But the harp is
pretty cool, I thought, especially the 2nd solo. This was done in 2 takes,
one for acoustic/vocals and one for harp, which I know because there are no
edits in the project file. Also, the effects were outboard boxes, added
during tracking, so I can't really do anything to fix this thing now, I just
keep it because the harp stuff is kinda cool.

So that's my embarrasing, too-damn-drunk recording story that happens to
have some cool harp hackery in it. : )

ryanm

[PeteL]

"ryanm" > wrote in message >...
> "PeteL" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Ryanm-I checked out your link,some really fine harp playing there!
> > That's definitly the sound I'm going for.
> >
> > I have an old J-station laying around,I'll have to try out your suggested
> setup.
> > Never thought of that one,thanks.
> >
> > What kind of harp do you like,I'm using Hohner Blues.
> >
> I use those also. I don't like plastic harps (like the Lee Oskar), they
> don't get the sound I like, although other people swear by them, and being
> the hack that I am you probably shouldn't give any more weight to my opinion
> than anyone else's.
>
> The POD was, I believe, suggested by someone on this forum a year or so
> ago. Sitting in your room it won't sound quite like you want it to, but in
> the mix with other instruments it's close enough for rock-n-roll. I haven't
> used the J-station, so I can't say how that will work, but the concept is
> sound, at any rate.
>
> I achieved a cool recorded overdriven harp sound one time using the
> green bullet into a dimed Pignose (the one with the 6" speaker), miced with
> an sm57. If I ever had a moment of coolness playing the harp, this would've
> been it. Unfortunately, it should probably be considered a low point in all
> other aspects. : )
>
> Let me preface this clip with my excuse. I came home from a gig late one
> night, listening to Sabbath all the way home. We had been drinking shots of
> Patron Silver (I lost count at 12 shots), and I only know how the signal
> chain was because it was still hooked up the next morning. Anyway, when I
> got home I was thinking how cool it would be to do all the Ozzy-era Sabbath
> as blues tunes (I know, I know), so I apparently started that night, and the
> result (it's a big file, almost 10 megs):
>
> http://www.horsefish.net/music/paranoid.mp3
>
> Ingore the vocals, please, I had already done a 4.5 hour show that
> night, and followed that up with way too much alcohol. But the harp is
> pretty cool, I thought, especially the 2nd solo. This was done in 2 takes,
> one for acoustic/vocals and one for harp, which I know because there are no
> edits in the project file. Also, the effects were outboard boxes, added
> during tracking, so I can't really do anything to fix this thing now, I just
> keep it because the harp stuff is kinda cool.
>
> So that's my embarrasing, too-damn-drunk recording story that happens to
> have some cool harp hackery in it. : )
>
> ryanm



Sounds pretty good,nice playing.

I'm still hunting around for the right mic.
I couldn't find the one's Scott mentioned,are they out of production?

Thanks again for all the help,
Pete