Headphones for live mixing

[Willie K.Yee, M.D.]

I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.

So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org

[Luke Kaven]

(Willie K.Yee, M.D.) wrote:

>I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
>to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
>fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
>through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
>damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
>So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
>is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
>give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
>the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
>Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
>Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
>Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org

The open-air phones will give you a more realistic rendition of the
sound, at the expense of isolation. The active noise-canceling phones
will probably act as a comb filter for your music, besides other
shortcomings in response. That technology seems as though it would
fail in cases where the noise and the source are the same. You might
have to strike a deal with the devil on this one.

Luke

[Kurt Albershardt]

Willie K.Yee, M.D. wrote:

> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation?

I'd start with a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pro (under $100, sometimes
under $80) and see if they're good enough. Even if you end up
purchasing a more expensive design with better isolation, they'll still
come in handy from time to time.

[Sean Conolly]

"Willie K.Yee, M.D." > wrote in message
...
> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.

Maybe some in-ears with heavy-duty hearing protectors over them, the kind
that are used on gun ranges?

Sean

[Charles Tomaras]

Here's what you want from Trew Audio in Nashville. They make a line of products
under the Remote Audio name and they have taken the Sony 7506 drivers and
mounted/tuned them for aircraft grade headsets. See them at:

http://www.trewaudio.com/hn7506.htm

They are worth every penny for what they do.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA


"Willie K.Yee, M.D." > wrote in message
...
> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
> Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
> Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
> Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
http://www.bigbluebigband.org
>

[Steve Scott]

says...
> Willie K.Yee, M.D. wrote:
> > So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation?
>
> I'd start with a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pro (under $100, sometimes
> under $80) and see if they're good enough. Even if you end up
> purchasing a more expensive design with better isolation, they'll still
> come in handy from time to time.

I'll second the HD-280, over-ear cups, good noise attenuation, decent
sound, comfortable.

Steve

[Peter Larsen]

"Willie K.Yee, M.D." wrote:

> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.

> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation?

To the best of my knowledge: none. I did plead to Winckler from
Sennheiser some time ago that they should come up with a location
monitor headphone with ANR. There is to the best of my understanding of
this no other way to get sufficient bass and low midrange attenuation.

> There
> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.

To my knowledge those that exist, Sennheiser do offer a (costly!) model
for helicopter use, are not optimized for quality, but for speech.

> Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
> Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
> Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Peter Larsen]

Sean Conolly wrote:

> Maybe some in-ears with heavy-duty hearing protectors over them, the kind
> that are used on gun ranges?

I have occasionally used earplugs with headphones because that allows
cranking the level the additional 20 dB required when the music SPL
suggests earplugs anyway ....

> Sean


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Peter Larsen]

Charles Tomaras wrote:

> Here's what you want from Trew Audio in Nashville. They make a line of products
> under the Remote Audio name and they have taken the Sony 7506 drivers and
> mounted/tuned them for aircraft grade headsets. See them at:

> http://www.trewaudio.com/hn7506.htm

> They are worth every penny for what they do.

Hmmm .... thanks, gotta look into those!

> Charles Tomaras
> Seattle, WA


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Victor Jacobsson]

In article, (Willie K.Yee, M.D.) wrote:

> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation?

I've done a few sessions where extreme isolation was needed, my consept
has been using a pair of HQ Etymötic [SP?] EAR in ear phones (they have
several models : then muffling the exterial sound with a pair of
industrial strenght ear-covering noice suppressors /ear muffs (also
comes in many diffrent shapes and styles) : this has worked out the
best for me as even the best "isolating" headphones have to much
leakage IMHO..

/vj


--

The Acoustic Sense,
Recording services for the acoustic musician
spam protection: exchange [not_vallid] with [snigelkriesjons] to mail

[Johnston West]

(Willie K.Yee, M.D.) wrote in message

> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation?


Bring an ice chest and stick your head in it while mixing.........
just kidding Willie. You couldn't do that cause all the blood would
rush to yer head and you'd pass out! <g>

But I did see a guy recording live once that brought a heavy wooden
crate that he would put on top of his rack, with the open side facing
him, and stick his head in it to mix..... Kinda Krazy but I bet it
helped.

You really can't get enough isolation with any phones while recording
a loud band, to make critical mixing decisons. ....... If you've gotta
mix with phones, at least make a rough mix on a portable at the
begining, and step outside and give it a listen to see where you're
****ing it up.

J_West

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

> Willie K.Yee, M.D. wrote:

> > I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> > to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> > fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> > through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> > damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.

> > So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation?

> I'd start with a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pro (under $100, sometimes
> under $80) and see if they're good enough. Even if you end up
> purchasing a more expensive design with better isolation, they'll still
> come in handy from time to time.

Kurt brought a pair of pairs of these to a live recording weekend before
last and they do offer both good sound and good isolation. Very usable
'phones.

I hit Etronics for a look at pricing and it was $77 and shipping. I plan
to get at least one pair. They're also quite comfortable and compact
when folded. I think they'd be good tracking/o'dubbing 'phones, too.

<http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=senhd280pro>

--
ha

[Harry Lavo]

"Willie K.Yee, M.D." > wrote in message
...
> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.

Willie -

I don't know of any complete solution to your problem. The best assurance
is that you do a complete sound check before the concert starts. And if
their are short breaks between sets, during that time as well.

That said, the best phones I've found for live monitoring are the old Koss
Pro4aa's (don't know about the newere version of this line, but believe a
newer version is still made). The old versions were uncomfortably tight but
had about as good an isolation as headphones get (except for noise-canceling
types). If you can find an old pair in decent shape, snap it up. And if
you can have a chance to try a new pair, I'd look into it.

Harry

[Scott Dorsey]

Sean Conolly > wrote:
>"Willie K.Yee, M.D." > wrote in message
...
>> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
>> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
>> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
>> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
>> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>>
>> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
>> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
>> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
>> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
>
>Maybe some in-ears with heavy-duty hearing protectors over them, the kind
>that are used on gun ranges?

I suggest using the Etymotic in-ear phones with custom earmolds, and then
hearing protectors over top of those. That gives you considerable
isolation.

You still can't get decent imaging on headphones, though. Can't you run
cables out to some room backstage or a bathroom, and set up a pair of
speakers there?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[2mb]

check out the pioneer 600's. They are a favorite of club djs who are trying
to match beats against a superloud club system and booth monitors.


"Willie K.Yee, M.D." > wrote in message
...
> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
> Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
> Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
> Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
http://www.bigbluebigband.org
>

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Can't you run cables out to some room backstage or a bathroom, and set up
> a pair of speakers there?

Not if you're simultaneously mixing FOH and mons. Kinda s'posed to stick
around the console area... <g>

--
ha

[Sean Conolly]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Sean Conolly > wrote:
> >"Willie K.Yee, M.D." > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
> >> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
> >> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
> >> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
> >> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
> >>
> >> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
> >> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
> >> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
> >> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
> >
> >Maybe some in-ears with heavy-duty hearing protectors over them, the kind
> >that are used on gun ranges?
>
> I suggest using the Etymotic in-ear phones with custom earmolds, and then
> hearing protectors over top of those. That gives you considerable
> isolation.

How about doing this using noise cancelling headphones instead of passive
hearing protectors? There's a few models for pilots that look interesting.

Sean

[Peter Larsen]

Sean Conolly wrote:

> > I suggest using the Etymotic in-ear phones with custom earmolds, and then
> > hearing protectors over top of those. That gives you considerable
> > isolation.

> How about doing this using noise cancelling headphones instead of passive
> hearing protectors? There's a few models for pilots that look interesting.

Those may in their current versions be optimized for speech.

A suggestion has been made to one manufacturer seen in the newsgroups
that they should make a version for location recording. The comment was
"interesting". I of course hope that they send me a free pair for coming
up with the idea, but it is unclear whether "homebase" agreed in
representatives opinion about my suggestion.

> Sean


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Johnston West]

"Charles Tomaras" > wrote in message >...
> Here's what you want from Trew Audio in Nashville. They make a line of products
> under the Remote Audio name and they have taken the Sony 7506 drivers and
> mounted/tuned them for aircraft grade headsets. See them at:
>
> http://www.trewaudio.com/hn7506.htm
>
> They are worth every penny for what they do.
>
> Charles Tomaras
> Seattle, WA
>
>

Nice. Great link Charles........ hadn't heard of those. Gotta check
them out!....Are they new?

[Scott Dorsey]

Sean Conolly > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>>
>> I suggest using the Etymotic in-ear phones with custom earmolds, and then
>> hearing protectors over top of those. That gives you considerable
>> isolation.
>
>How about doing this using noise cancelling headphones instead of passive
>hearing protectors? There's a few models for pilots that look interesting.

They don't cancel all sounds uniformly, so you get a very weird picture of
what is going on, because you get the original signal combined with
partially-cancelled leakage. It seems like a good idea, but I tried the
Sennheiser pilot sets that we use at work and I was really confused at the
sound until I figured out what was going on.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> How about doing this using noise cancelling headphones instead of passive
> hearing protectors? There's a few models for pilots that look interesting.

Those work best for cancelling what can be characterized as noise
(mathematically). I wear Sennheiser noise cancelling phones on
airplanes and they work pretty well in reducing the constant rumble,
but I can hear people talking around me.

One problem with sound sources that are in close proximity (like when
my seat mate is listening to the MTV channel with his light duty
headphones). The Sssst-Sssst-Ssssst leaking out of his headphones is
aimed right at the one of the microphones (in the earpiece) that picks
up the ambient noise to cancel. When there's sound coming into one mic
that the other mic doesn't hear, it not only doesn't cancel, it shoots
it right into the audio going into my phones. So they reduce one
problem and make another problem worse.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Peter Larsen]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> They don't cancel all sounds uniformly, so you get a very weird picture of
> what is going on, because you get the original signal combined with
> partially-cancelled leakage. It seems like a good idea, but I tried the
> Sennheiser pilot sets that we use at work and I was really confused at the
> sound until I figured out what was going on.

It appears from Mike's comment that they try to do too much of a
wideband job, imo it is the below 500 Hz stuff they should deal with,
perhaps the below 200 Hz, and leave the rest alone.

> --scott


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Richard Kuschel]

>net>
>
>I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
>to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
>fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
>through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
>damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>
>So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
>is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
>give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
>the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
>Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
>Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
>Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
>http://www.bigbluebigband.org
>
>

Etymotic Canal 'phones Or Sensaphonics.

Either provide extreme isolation and allow you to hear what is going on when
the world is crazy loud around you.

Not as good as a set of speakers, but better than headphones because the
headphones don't provide enough isolation.

Whe I started using these for the Jazz gigs, my ears no longer rang after the
concerts.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Charles Tomaras]

"Johnston West" > wrote in message
m...
> "Charles Tomaras" > wrote in message
>...
> > Here's what you want from Trew Audio in Nashville. They make a line of
products
> > under the Remote Audio name and they have taken the Sony 7506 drivers and
> > mounted/tuned them for aircraft grade headsets. See them at:
> >
> > http://www.trewaudio.com/hn7506.htm
> >
> > They are worth every penny for what they do.
> >
> > Charles Tomaras
> > Seattle, WA
> >
> >
>
> Nice. Great link Charles........ hadn't heard of those. Gotta check
> them out!....Are they new?

Nah, Glen Trew has been making these for a few years now. They have lots of nice
products for location sound work under the Remote Audio brand. Check out the
little battery powered portable speaker.

[Philip Perkins]

I made some headsets similar to the Remote Audio ones several years
ago, and still use them for live recordings where it isn't possible to
have speakers. I got a pair of aircraft hearing protectors and put
some Sennheiser 414 drivers in them. Not perfect, but pretty good
isolation for multitrack recording. This is essentially what the
Remote Audios are, and I've seen other brands over the years.

Philip Perkins

[Charles Tomaras]

"Philip Perkins" > wrote in message
om...
> I made some headsets similar to the Remote Audio ones several years
> ago, and still use them for live recordings where it isn't possible to
> have speakers. I got a pair of aircraft hearing protectors and put
> some Sennheiser 414 drivers in them. Not perfect, but pretty good
> isolation for multitrack recording. This is essentially what the
> Remote Audios are, and I've seen other brands over the years.
>
> Philip Perkins

Only difference Phillip is that Glenn at Remote Audio had done lots of work
"tuning" the remote audio versions for proper response. Not a big deal for
mulit-tracking as you say but they are accurate enough for a passable live mix
if you are doing two-track broadcast work.

[Ben Bradley]

In rec.audio.pro, (Richard Kuschel) wrote:

>Etymotic Canal 'phones Or Sensaphonics.
>
>Either provide extreme isolation and allow you to hear what is going
on when
>the world is crazy loud around you.

Shure sells "consumer" in-ear phones that claim high isolation. Has
anyone compared these with the Etymotic and Sensaphonics (maybe a
review site somewhere), for both isolation and sound quality?

>Not as good as a set of speakers, but better than headphones because
the
>headphones don't provide enough isolation.
>
>Whe I started using these for the Jazz gigs, my ears no longer rang
after the
>concerts.
>Richard H. Kuschel
>"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Charles Tomaras]

I've heard good stuff about the Shure series, especially the 5E model with the
dual drivers that costs $499. In conversation with an Etymotic Research sales
person, they admitted to me that the people who designed the Shure systems used
to work for them. I've got a pair of the Etymotic Research canal phones and I'm
quite pleased with them. I am going to have them "downgrade" them to the lower
impedence speck so I can use them with my consumer electronics gear without an
additional amp.


"Ben Bradley" > wrote in message
om...
> In rec.audio.pro, (Richard Kuschel) wrote:
>
> >Etymotic Canal 'phones Or Sensaphonics.
> >
> >Either provide extreme isolation and allow you to hear what is going
> on when
> >the world is crazy loud around you.
>
> Shure sells "consumer" in-ear phones that claim high isolation. Has
> anyone compared these with the Etymotic and Sensaphonics (maybe a
> review site somewhere), for both isolation and sound quality?
>
> >Not as good as a set of speakers, but better than headphones because
> the
> >headphones don't provide enough isolation.
> >
> >Whe I started using these for the Jazz gigs, my ears no longer rang
> after the
> >concerts.
> >Richard H. Kuschel
> >"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Willie K.Yee, M.D.]

I'm going to try these. I will report back on results.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:05:14 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
> wrote:

>Here's what you want from Trew Audio in Nashville. They make a line of products
>under the Remote Audio name and they have taken the Sony 7506 drivers and
>mounted/tuned them for aircraft grade headsets. See them at:
>
>http://www.trewaudio.com/hn7506.htm
>
>They are worth every penny for what they do.
>
>Charles Tomaras
>Seattle, WA
>
>
>"Willie K.Yee, M.D." > wrote in message
...
>> I did a live big band recording gig, and attempted to use headphones
>> to monitor individual tracks and the live backup mix. I was sitting
>> fairly close to the band, and basically could not hear anything
>> through the phones (Sony MDR 7509s) unless they were cranked up to ear
>> damaging levels. There was no other room to monitor from.
>>
>> So, what kind of phones will work to give me enough isolation? There
>> is a brand called Extreme Isolation phones. Does anyone know if they
>> give enough isolation to work in this situation. Or should I go with
>> the more complex solution of noice cancelling headphones.
>> Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
>> Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
>> Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
>http://www.bigbluebigband.org
>>
>
>

Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org