Recording small Irish ensemble

[5016]

I'm soon going to be recording a small group of traditional irish
musicians. They're very good players, all supposedly won the
all-ireland competition at one time or another (though I have rarely
met a trad irish player who hasn't) and one of them has multiple
grammys.

I have no experience doing this, multitracking rock bands being my
thing, but I'm interested in trying, and they want to make a CD though
I have no idea what their eventual plans will be for it. Because I
know literally nothing about doing this, I'd be interested in your
feedback on what I should do.

Rather than track them one at a time, we're planning to go to a small
hall and record them together.

Equipment that I have available to transport easily to a hall is:
2 tascam da38s (I'd rather only take one if I can get away with it)
2 8 channel Nuendo converters (ditto)
4 channel API preamp
4 channels of symetrix 202
1 U87
2 schoeps cardiod sd condensors
2 Beyer M260.80
4 MXL 603
RE-20, Shure 52, some 57s and 58s


Due to my innate laziness and paucity of payment for this gig, I'd
really rather only take 1 da-38. If it was really important, I could
take two for 16 channels. Also, I could take both da-38s and one rme
and bit split for 8 channels of 24 bit. But I have convinced myself
that it doesn't matter, and I can make do with 8 channels, and that
16-bit is fine. Have I convinced myself incorrectly?

The instrumentation is:
flute
button accordian
fiddle
electric piano
small drum set (the group elder is very traditional, and claims that
in his day in ireland everyone used a trap kit, not a bodrhan (sp?))

I figured that I would just set them up where they were comfortable
and sounded good, set up a ortf pair of the schoeps cardiods thru API,
and then spot mic
flute M260, api
fiddle M260, api
accordian U87 (cardioid), symetrix
piano, DI, symetrix
which leaves two 603s for the drums front and OH?

So the majority of the mix will come from the stereo pair, with spot
mics added appropriately on mix down.

Obviously, you're supposed to use more than 2 mics on drums, but given
that the majority of the sound is going to come from the stereo, can I
get away with this?

Or should I use a single distant mic to free up another track for
drums and create the stereo field with the spot mics?

Or should I bite the bullet and bring another da-38 and borrow more
preamps?

Or should I go to the effort of borrowing a submixer to mix the drums
down to two tracks?

Thanks - any comments accepted with gratitude.

[Carlos Alden]

I play and record a lot of trad Irish music, so I'll give you my two cents'
worth here. However, I don't have nearly the technical expertise you do
with the equipment, so I can't, for example, comment on the specific mics.

> The instrumentation is:
> flute
> button accordian
> fiddle
> electric piano
> small drum set (the group elder is very traditional, and claims that
> in his day in ireland everyone used a trap kit, not a bodrhan (sp?))

Yes, this is true. You'd never see a trap kit these days, but back in the
first half of the 20th century every little group had a piano and a small
drum kit. Very heavy downbeat for local dances.
>
> I figured that I would just set them up where they were comfortable
> and sounded good, set up a ortf pair of the schoeps cardiods thru API,
> and then spot mic
> flute M260, api
> fiddle M260, api
> accordian U87 (cardioid), symetrix
> piano, DI, symetrix
> which leaves two 603s for the drums front and OH?

I would think you'd be fine. Make sure you don't get too close to the
fiddle, remembering that a lot of the fiddle's voice is actually away from
the instrument a bit, maybe two-three feet at least. And with the flute,
stay down near the mid section rather than by the fipple, or whatever it's
called on a flute. It can get rough and overly breathy fast. Your real
micing problem would be with a bodhran or uilleann pipes, and you don't
have those. I think if you listen to what the instruments sound like and
try and capture that, then listen to the groove and try and get that you'll
be fine, especially since you're in a hall and not a studio.

Carlos

[John Halliburton]

> I'm soon going to be recording a small group of traditional irish
> musicians. They're very good players, all supposedly won the
> all-ireland competition at one time or another (though I have rarely
> met a trad irish player who hasn't) and one of them has multiple
> grammys.

n/c

>
> I have no experience doing this, multitracking rock bands being my
> thing, but I'm interested in trying, and they want to make a CD though
> I have no idea what their eventual plans will be for it. Because I
> know literally nothing about doing this, I'd be interested in your
> feedback on what I should do.
>
> Rather than track them one at a time, we're planning to go to a small
> hall and record them together.

I agree. Is it going to be a live recording with audience? If not, I'd
suggest something a bit smaller for a recording venue. Traditional Irish
music tends to be a more intimate affair-playing in pubs, backrooms,
kitchens, etc.
>
>
>
> The instrumentation is:
> flute
> button accordian
> fiddle
> electric piano
> small drum set (the group elder is very traditional, and claims that
> in his day in ireland everyone used a trap kit, not a bodrhan (sp?))

For a ceili band yes. The piano gives it away too. A couple of boom chords
for an intro, and we're off...
Bodhran is more familiar in groups like DeDannan, The Bothy Band, etc.
For some more modern(jazz, new age, rock influenced) Irish arrangements,
check out www.baaltinne.com
We've recorded both ways, and I suspect that we'll go for the group style in
one room, if anything, just for the better mood and dynamic when everyone's
right there.

>>good stuff about mics and preamps snipped>

> Obviously, you're supposed to use more than 2 mics on drums, but given
> that the majority of the sound is going to come from the stereo, can I
> get away with this?

A good chance. Fletcher spec'd a three mic technique years ago on the
newsgroup, and I'm sure someone would go over it again.


> Or should I go to the effort of borrowing a submixer to mix the drums
> down to two tracks?

I prefer the three mic technique, sounds more like a drum kit, but that's
just my opinion.

Best regards,

John Halliburton

[P Stamler]

I think your basic plan is fine; I'd suggest taking both DA-38s and doing
bit-splitting. If you were going direct to 2-track I think you could get away
with a 16-bit recording, but since you'll be mixing down you should start with
the highest resolution available. For this application, I think you'll be okay
with two drum mikes; in fact, you may not even wind up using them in the final
mix if you do the ORTF right and luck out on the hall.

I concur that a smaller room might be preferable, this is intimate music. But
between a bigger room that sounds good and a smaller one that doesn't, I'd go
with the bigger one.

Peace,
Paul

[John Halliburton]

> I concur that a smaller room might be preferable, this is intimate music.
But
> between a bigger room that sounds good and a smaller one that doesn't, I'd
go
> with the bigger one.

Certainly, plus things like closer micing distance can help to preserve some
intimate sound in the bigger hall.

Best regards,

John

[Emanuel Zorg]

I disagree with your other informants.
Your message indicates that your band
hearkens back to the classic ceili band
sound, popular in the 1940s and 1950s,
and recorded on many early lps. Today's
popular Irish fiddler Martin Hayes is the
son of the organizer of one of the most
successful of these bands, and a scholar
of that style, by the way. I believe he
has a website, either under his name, or
the name of the band, the Tulla Ceili Band.

Other popular ceili bands recorded in the
1950s include the Kilfenora Ceili Band and
Ballinakill Ceili Band. The affairs where
these bands performed (as bands) were not
intimate at all, but rather the largest,
noisiest, most acoustically chaotic halls
(providing the most room for dancing)
available (admittedly not Roseland sized,
until they emigrated to the USA, where they
did indeed play in enormous halls of the
1950s and 1960s).

The natural environment of these bands is
highly reverberant (if that is even a word)
because of the large polished dance floors,
bare walls, and lack of attention to acoustics.
Although many of them included players who
were otherwise noted soloists, the values
of ceili band playing were not at all oriented
toward individuality. I agree that you should
rely on a distant stereo pair, and I doubt very
much whether, when playing as an ensemble,
your players (who sound like staunch
traditionalists) will want to stand out as
individuals. They will want to blend.

The character of Irish music available on
recorded media changed drastically in the
1970s. Your other informants are thinking
about this newer kind of recording (which
was supposed to better represent the "music
of the people" than the recordings available
up until then).

So, emphasize blending and reverberation.
Why not set the U87 on omni, given that
the accordion emits noise from both sides
and has an extremely wide dynamic range?
It would also add to the ceili atmosphere
if the pianist could use an amp and you
could mic that. Eight channels should be
plenty and 16 bit is great: both of these
choices conform to the blending idea.

Above assumes that they are going for a
ceili band sound without the terrible audio
engineering of the classic ceili band lps.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I'm soon going to be recording a small group of traditional irish
> musicians. They're very good players, all supposedly won the
> all-ireland competition at one time or another (though I have rarely
> met a trad irish player who hasn't) and one of them has multiple
> grammys.
>
> I have no experience doing this, multitracking rock bands being my
> thing, but I'm interested in trying, and they want to make a CD though

Irrelevant and condescending editorial comment:

It never ceases to amaze me that highly experienced and Grammy-winning
musicians will go to an inexperienced person to record them, and want
to make a CD (presumably for some "professional" reason - like selling
it). Why aren't they in a studio where they've had good results
before? If you have a couple of buddies in this group and they're
donating their time so you can get some experience, that's one thing,
but to put their time and effort into the hands of someone who's going
to get his "experience" from a newsgroup makes no sense to me.

> Rather than track them one at a time, we're planning to go to a small
> hall and record them together.

Good thought.

> Equipment that I have available to transport easily to a hall is:
> 2 tascam da38s (I'd rather only take one if I can get away with it)
> 2 8 channel Nuendo converters (ditto)
> 4 channel API preamp
> 4 channels of symetrix 202
> 1 U87
> 2 schoeps cardiod sd condensors
> 2 Beyer M260.80
> 4 MXL 603
> RE-20, Shure 52, some 57s and 58s

Nothing wrong with that.

> Due to my innate laziness and paucity of payment for this gig, I'd
> really rather only take 1 da-38. If it was really important, I could
> take two for 16 channels. Also, I could take both da-38s and one rme
> and bit split for 8 channels of 24 bit. But I have convinced myself
> that it doesn't matter, and I can make do with 8 channels, and that
> 16-bit is fine. Have I convinced myself incorrectly?

It depends on the intent of the project. You can certainly record this
group on eight tracks. You can even record them on two tracks (though
I didn't see a mixer in your equipment list). But this somewhat limits
your options when it comes to mixing. Since you aren't familiar with
this sort of music, you're better off capturing everyting individually
and working with one of the musicians (not all, Irish musicians never
agree on anything except sleeping late) to mix. This means not
skimping on channels. Carrying one more MDM isn't that big a deal.

> I figured that I would just set them up where they were comfortable
> and sounded good, set up a ortf pair of the schoeps cardiods thru API,
> and then spot mic
> flute M260, api
> fiddle M260, api
> accordian U87 (cardioid), symetrix
> piano, DI, symetrix
> which leaves two 603s for the drums front and OH?

> So the majority of the mix will come from the stereo pair, with spot
> mics added appropriately on mix down.

That can work, but how will you monitor during the session? How will
you know that you have a good, well balanced pickup from your main
stereo pair? I didn't see a way, given your equipment list, to do
that. Also, when setting up acoustic instruments so that everyone is
comfortable, you'll have a lot of leakage on your spot mics, so you
need to listen very carefully to those, repositioning them by inches
or rotating a few degrees to minimize the detremental effects.

> Obviously, you're supposed to use more than 2 mics on drums

Not necessarily. Depends on what the drums are doing.

> Or should I bite the bullet and bring another da-38 and borrow more
> preamps?

Given that you will essentially be flying blind until you mix, I'd
close-mic everything and set up an overall pair to get some ambience,
which you may choose not to use.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Paul Gitlitz]

I agree with all the comments thus far. I also play and record Irish
music. I'd stick the RE 20 in the kick and possibly even use the U87
as a single mic over the kit them you can use the 603's to stereo mic
the accordion. It really depends on the room and the players style. If
the accordion player is not using much left hand then there's no point
in being stereo.

[Scott Dorsey]

P Stamler > wrote:
>I think your basic plan is fine; I'd suggest taking both DA-38s and doing
>bit-splitting. If you were going direct to 2-track I think you could get away
>with a 16-bit recording, but since you'll be mixing down you should start with
>the highest resolution available. For this application, I think you'll be okay
>with two drum mikes; in fact, you may not even wind up using them in the final
>mix if you do the ORTF right and luck out on the hall.

Agreed absolutely. If you are really careful you can do the whole thing with
just the ambient pair and a little bit of spotting, although you might like
the closer-in sound with the spotting.

>I concur that a smaller room might be preferable, this is intimate music. But
>between a bigger room that sounds good and a smaller one that doesn't, I'd go
>with the bigger one.

Also agreed. I'd tend to go with baffled omnis in a very small room, for
a very intimate sound. But a small room that sounds bad can sound very
bad indeed.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Len Moskowitz]

5016 > wrote:

>I'm soon going to be recording a small group of traditional irish
>musicians. They're very good players, all supposedly won the
>all-ireland competition at one time or another (though I have rarely
>met a trad irish player who hasn't) and one of them has multiple
>grammys.

Have a look at what Stereophile's John Atkinson used when he recorded
the last Cantus CD:

http://www.visi.com/~asm/Gallery/SciFair_2001/Cantus/Cantus_II/cantus_ii.html

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

[5016]

"John Halliburton" > wrote in message >...
> > I'm soon going to be recording a small group of traditional irish
> > musicians. They're very good players, all supposedly won the
> > all-ireland competition at one time or another (though I have rarely
> > met a trad irish player who hasn't) and one of them has multiple
> > grammys.
>
> n/c
>
> >
> > I have no experience doing this, multitracking rock bands being my
> > thing, but I'm interested in trying, and they want to make a CD though
> > I have no idea what their eventual plans will be for it. Because I
> > know literally nothing about doing this, I'd be interested in your
> > feedback on what I should do.
> >
> > Rather than track them one at a time, we're planning to go to a small
> > hall and record them together.
>
> I agree. Is it going to be a live recording with audience? If not, I'd
> suggest something a bit smaller for a recording venue. Traditional Irish
> music tends to be a more intimate affair-playing in pubs, backrooms,
> kitchens, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > The instrumentation is:
> > flute
> > button accordian
> > fiddle
> > electric piano
> > small drum set (the group elder is very traditional, and claims that
> > in his day in ireland everyone used a trap kit, not a bodrhan (sp?))
>
> For a ceili band yes. The piano gives it away too. A couple of boom chords
> for an intro, and we're off...
> Bodhran is more familiar in groups like DeDannan, The Bothy Band, etc.
> For some more modern(jazz, new age, rock influenced) Irish arrangements,
> check out www.baaltinne.com
> We've recorded both ways, and I suspect that we'll go for the group style in
> one room, if anything, just for the better mood and dynamic when everyone's
> right there.
>
> >>good stuff about mics and preamps snipped>
>
> > Obviously, you're supposed to use more than 2 mics on drums, but given
> > that the majority of the sound is going to come from the stereo, can I
> > get away with this?
>
> A good chance. Fletcher spec'd a three mic technique years ago on the
> newsgroup, and I'm sure someone would go over it again.
>
>
> > Or should I go to the effort of borrowing a submixer to mix the drums
> > down to two tracks?
>
> I prefer the three mic technique, sounds more like a drum kit, but that's
> just my opinion.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John Halliburton

Thanks for the help from everyone. I'm going to check out the room
tonight. I will try to make sure they use a smaller room, and I will
keep it 24 bit. When I started to think about the number of mic
stands/booms that I am going to have to bring, complaining about
bringing an extra da38 seems trivial.

Good to hear that the guy is right about the trap kit.

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Emanuel Zorg wrote:

> The character of Irish music available on
> recorded media changed drastically in the
> 1970s. Your other informants are thinking
> about this newer kind of recording (which
> was supposed to better represent the "music
> of the people" than the recordings available
> up until then).

The "people's music" requires that each and every player use exactly the
same microphone and preamp channel. <g>

--
ha

[Peter Larsen]

LeBaron & Alrich wrote:

> Emanuel Zorg wrote:

> > The character of Irish music available on
> > recorded media changed drastically in the
> > 1970s. Your other informants are thinking
> > about this newer kind of recording (which
> > was supposed to better represent the "music
> > of the people" than the recordings available
> > up until then).

> The "people's music" requires that each and every player use exactly the
> same microphone and preamp channel. <g>

I'd still try using a single mic pair and perhaps a room pair, or a 5+1
setup, for this and see if it could be made to work. Anybody know
whether Brucks Sputnik can be enhanced to a 5+1 setup? - logically it
ought to work!

> --
> ha


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[5016]

(Emanuel Zorg) wrote in message >...
> I disagree with your other informants.
> Your message indicates that your band
> hearkens back to the classic ceili band
> sound, popular in the 1940s and 1950s,
> and recorded on many early lps. Today's
> popular Irish fiddler Martin Hayes is the
> son of the organizer of one of the most
> successful of these bands, and a scholar
> of that style, by the way. I believe he
> has a website, either under his name, or
> the name of the band, the Tulla Ceili Band.
>
> Other popular ceili bands recorded in the
> 1950s include the Kilfenora Ceili Band and
> Ballinakill Ceili Band. The affairs where
> these bands performed (as bands) were not
> intimate at all, but rather the largest,
> noisiest, most acoustically chaotic halls
> (providing the most room for dancing)
> available (admittedly not Roseland sized,
> until they emigrated to the USA, where they
> did indeed play in enormous halls of the
> 1950s and 1960s).
>
> The natural environment of these bands is
> highly reverberant (if that is even a word)
> because of the large polished dance floors,
> bare walls, and lack of attention to acoustics.
> Although many of them included players who
> were otherwise noted soloists, the values
> of ceili band playing were not at all oriented
> toward individuality. I agree that you should
> rely on a distant stereo pair, and I doubt very
> much whether, when playing as an ensemble,
> your players (who sound like staunch
> traditionalists) will want to stand out as
> individuals. They will want to blend.
>
> The character of Irish music available on
> recorded media changed drastically in the
> 1970s. Your other informants are thinking
> about this newer kind of recording (which
> was supposed to better represent the "music
> of the people" than the recordings available
> up until then).
>
> So, emphasize blending and reverberation.
> Why not set the U87 on omni, given that
> the accordion emits noise from both sides
> and has an extremely wide dynamic range?
> It would also add to the ceili atmosphere
> if the pianist could use an amp and you
> could mic that. Eight channels should be
> plenty and 16 bit is great: both of these
> choices conform to the blending idea.
>
> Above assumes that they are going for a
> ceili band sound without the terrible audio
> engineering of the classic ceili band lps.

Thanks very much. This was very interesting reading. I think that you
have described the aims of the project perfectly. They have in fact
chosen a small reverberant hall as their recording area.

[D Owen]

Oh and don't forget to lock the liquor cabinet or you'll have a real
mess on your hands.

D. Owen
(hey I'm half Irish - We have a sense of humor y' know)

5016 wrote:
> I'm soon going to be recording a small group of traditional irish
> musicians. They're very good players, all supposedly won the
> all-ireland competition at one time or another (though I have rarely
> met a trad irish player who hasn't) and one of them has multiple
> grammys.
>
> I have no experience doing this, multitracking rock bands being my
> thing, but I'm interested in trying, and they want to make a CD though
> I have no idea what their eventual plans will be for it. Because I
> know literally nothing about doing this, I'd be interested in your
> feedback on what I should do.
>
> Rather than track them one at a time, we're planning to go to a small
> hall and record them together.
>
> Equipment that I have available to transport easily to a hall is:
> 2 tascam da38s (I'd rather only take one if I can get away with it)
> 2 8 channel Nuendo converters (ditto)
> 4 channel API preamp
> 4 channels of symetrix 202
> 1 U87
> 2 schoeps cardiod sd condensors
> 2 Beyer M260.80
> 4 MXL 603
> RE-20, Shure 52, some 57s and 58s
>
>
> Due to my innate laziness and paucity of payment for this gig, I'd
> really rather only take 1 da-38. If it was really important, I could
> take two for 16 channels. Also, I could take both da-38s and one rme
> and bit split for 8 channels of 24 bit. But I have convinced myself
> that it doesn't matter, and I can make do with 8 channels, and that
> 16-bit is fine. Have I convinced myself incorrectly?
>
> The instrumentation is:
> flute
> button accordian
> fiddle
> electric piano
> small drum set (the group elder is very traditional, and claims that
> in his day in ireland everyone used a trap kit, not a bodrhan (sp?))
>
> I figured that I would just set them up where they were comfortable
> and sounded good, set up a ortf pair of the schoeps cardiods thru API,
> and then spot mic
> flute M260, api
> fiddle M260, api
> accordian U87 (cardioid), symetrix
> piano, DI, symetrix
> which leaves two 603s for the drums front and OH?
>
> So the majority of the mix will come from the stereo pair, with spot
> mics added appropriately on mix down.
>
> Obviously, you're supposed to use more than 2 mics on drums, but given
> that the majority of the sound is going to come from the stereo, can I
> get away with this?
>
> Or should I use a single distant mic to free up another track for
> drums and create the stereo field with the spot mics?
>
> Or should I bite the bullet and bring another da-38 and borrow more
> preamps?
>
> Or should I go to the effort of borrowing a submixer to mix the drums
> down to two tracks?
>
> Thanks - any comments accepted with gratitude.