Moral Dilemma: Recording the band you are in...

[they call me frenchy]

I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.

I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
(selling at shows).

Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
rate for my studio = approx $1200).

With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
situation......

When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
either really.

Hmmmmmmm......
Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
need a business mediator/consultant?

thx for any insight,
frenchy

[Blind Joni]

> The band has no
>business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
>either really.

This is the real issue. I deal with these issues daily..just last night for
example.
Any organization;when it reaches the point of being a serious business needs at
least an advisor with more experience that the group trusts to lead the way. I
always advise bands to have contracts within the band at the earliest possible
time because:
1. it can help avoid unexpected problems which do the most harm...slowing or
stopping a bands momentum.
2. Any future negotiations with any legal ramifications will require contracts,
lawyers.etc...so it's better to get aquainted with the process early on.
For the record I offered a friends band the same deal as you did to your
group...and got the same response...baffling. You offer up front service with
no guarentee of reward and you are percieved as a weasel. They need to get a
real view of business and human nature. good luck.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Dave Martin]

"they call me frenchy" > wrote in message
>
> Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
> thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
> sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
> hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
> rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>
> With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
> studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
> situation......
>

I agree with you - when people I work with ask about studio time, I will
usually offer them a reduced rate, but someone's gonna pay... Your agreement
sounds fair, but who would pay for the pressing? In that sort of a
'partnership' situation, if you're paying for pressing as well, I'd suggest
that you get 100% of the money until you're re-imbursed.

Explain to the outraged band member that the band is your hobby, the studio
is your living...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[dt king]

"they call me frenchy" > wrote in message
...

> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.

If recording is your hobby, you shouldn't charge your band. If recording
is your living, you already cut them a terrific deal. Everybody in the
band should kick in to pay for the studio charges, not just you. The time
you spend recording your band would otherwise go to buying groceries,
wouldn't it?

dtk

[they call me frenchy]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:02:17 GMT, "dt king" >
wrote:

>"they call me frenchy" > wrote in message
...
>
>> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
>> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
>> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
>> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
>> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
>> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
>> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
>> either really.
>
>If recording is your hobby, you shouldn't charge your band. If recording
>is your living, you already cut them a terrific deal. Everybody in the
>band should kick in to pay for the studio charges, not just you. The time
>you spend recording your band would otherwise go to buying groceries,
>wouldn't it?
>
>dtk


Yes, I forgot to add that I have no day job, because studio related
work is my day job.

thx again,
frenchy

[they call me frenchy]

>If recording is your hobby, you shouldn't charge your band. If recording
>is your living, you already cut them a terrific deal. Everybody in the
>band should kick in to pay for the studio charges, not just you. The time
>you spend recording your band would otherwise go to buying groceries,
>wouldn't it?
>
>dtk


I suppose to complicate matters, a lot of the recording is done during
regularly scheduled practice sessions, but I also do bass tracks and
mixing during non-practice time. The sad part is the fact that I know
I am not being compensated, so I am not too quick to spend too much
time working on it outside of practice. This sucks, because after all
it is my band and I will benefit....but I cannot afford to spend hours
working for free when I need to buy groceries as you said.

thx for the words,
frenchy

[msparti]

I'm a bass player...and have a studio...I'll record them for free. So long
as they fire your ass.
kidding,.... lol... I wouldn't charge my band to record in my studio. I
just wouldnt.

I think you should book the band (your band) in your studio to record your
demo when time is available
and do it for free. Is that not part of the reason for them letting you join
the band? (??) rehearsals are a different story...if your rehearsing in your
studio then mabye charge a lite fee.......but are you loosing business from
this band? (while rehearsing/recording using your space) if so...then I
might play that up a bit...and it would seem (to me) a more legit reason to
get money from them.

But, other than those circumstances, I'd say your a DICK!!!! LOL!! (really)

Good luck....



"they call me frenchy" > wrote in message
...
> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
> need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
> (selling at shows).
>
> Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
> thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
> sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
> hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
> rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>
> With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
> studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
> situation......
>
> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.
>
> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?
>
> thx for any insight,
> frenchy

[Steven Sena]

I would probably do it for nothing...
But then that's probably why my bank account looks like ****...

--
Steven Sena
XS Sound
www.xssound.com


"they call me frenchy" > wrote in message
...
> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
> need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
> (selling at shows).
>
> Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
> thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
> sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
> hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
> rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>
> With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
> studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
> situation......
>
> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.
>
> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?
>
> thx for any insight,
> frenchy

[Neil Gould]

Recently, they call me frenchy > posted:

>> If recording is your hobby, you shouldn't charge your band. If
>> recording is your living, you already cut them a terrific deal.
>> Everybody in the band should kick in to pay for the studio charges,
>> not just you. The time you spend recording your band would
>> otherwise go to buying groceries, wouldn't it?
>>
>> dtk
>
>
> I suppose to complicate matters, a lot of the recording is done during
> regularly scheduled practice sessions, but I also do bass tracks and
> mixing during non-practice time. The sad part is the fact that I know
> I am not being compensated, so I am not too quick to spend too much
> time working on it outside of practice. This sucks, because after all
> it is my band and I will benefit....but I cannot afford to spend hours
> working for free when I need to buy groceries as you said.
>
That doesn't really complicate matters, nor does it really address the
"moral" issue.

From where I sit (and I've sat where you're sitting many times in the
past), "the band" is expecting you to pick up the cost of their project.
It doesn't take genius-level intellect to know that the cost of running
any business, be it a hot dog stand or a studio, goes beyond the cost of
rent and electricity. Who is going to maintain the gear? Who is going to
replace it when it breaks? Who is going to feed you while the studio is
unproductive during their "free ride"?

There are other considerations. If the disc doesn't sell, YOU are left
holding the bag. If the band folds, YOU are left holding the bag.

The "moral" of this story is: don't be guilt-tripped into slitting your
throat to satisfy some short-sighted notion of fairness. You have offered
them a fantastic deal. If they don't think so, let them come up with
financing from a bank to pay for the project, then take it to another
studio to do the work, where you'll be just a band member and therefore an
equal partner. I'll bet the cost of your offer will look a lot better in
that light. They may even come to thank you.

Regards,

Neil

[Kurt Riemann]

After a discussion, he
>whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
>month that we are in my space to "cover expenses".

They need to cover ALL your expenses. Depreciation, gear payments,
electricity, lost revenue . . .

You know, regular rates.



Kurt Riemann

[P Stamler]

My personal inclination, if I was in that situation and we were locked into
using my studio, would be to do the job for expenses (in other words, studio
overhead), but insist that all of the expenses be paid for out of record sales
before anything else got divvied up. I'd also expect everyone to share the cost
of pressing the discs equally.

However, I think it'd be a better solution to save up the money and have some
other studio do the recording. That way there'll be fewer hard feelings. And if
things are going slowly it'll be easy to call up and bitch, which might get
messy if you're working uncompensated.

Peace,
Paul

[Kurt Riemann]

"I'm too busy. I'd have to bump a paying client."

[Charles Thomas]

In article >,
they call me frenchy > wrote:

> I run a recording studio
> I also play bass in a band
>I wanted to give them a good deal
>one of the key/founding members of the band was outraged.
>He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider expecting money
to record my own band.

This one is simple to me. I'd say:

"You can either pay the price I've given you, or if someone else can go
to another studio and negotiate a better deal that's cool too.

I'm not obligated to spend my resources and expertise to record this
band if nobody in the band feels obligated to make sacrifices of their
own to see that the recording gets done."

No brainer. Your band-mates are jerks if they want to take advantage of
you in this way. Your band membership doesn't mean a free ride for them
at your expense. It should mean a good deal, and you've offered them
one.



CT

[knud]

If you're running a proffesional operation, then there is no reason that
you can't get paid. Recording can stretch out and be a hassle, you could be
losing your bread money while you're waiting for the guitarist to tune up. Of
course, if you're real close with the guys and the band is serious then you
might want to do it for free during your "time off"

On the other hand, if you're running a non commercial facility it might be
stretching it to ask for much although I have gotten paid in the same situation
you describe, and they were all too happy to pay such a small amount for a
recording so much better than we could get at one of the commercial facilities
here (which are a joke). Granted I was part of the band but they understood the
kind of investment I have made in gear and the amount of labor involved in
editing, mixing and mastering the project when they weren't around. So they
offered a fair low-budget price without me having to ask. I'm sorry your fellow
band members are so uptight, but they must not understand how much time it can
take to do a good recording.


blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

[2mb]

Take all of your horrible experience and come up with some up front
operating agreements.
It has been my experience that if you don't do this, as soon as the first
penny of profit, or pain, is involved people start getting upset. Being
reasonable isn't going to solve anything. Most likely, your perfectly
reasonable request has already destroyed your relationships. If everyone
knows the deal up front, they either agree or walk away before anyone wastes
their time.

My partners and I go into projects knowing that any advances from the record
company or investors for recording go into new gear and mastering costs. Any
artists are made aware of this up front. Just because I am also your
producer doesn't mean you get to use my studio for free. I have a damn
payment to make! Maybe when the gear is paid for, I will be a little more
philanthropic.

> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no

What about the time spent by you, mixing down and occupying your studio with
the band, when you could be collecting your hourly rate. Make sure you add
this expense to the rent expense.

It is after all, monetary sacrifice that you are making, that no one else in
the band is sacrificing, therefore is an added expense.

good luck. This sounds like a pickle.

l8,
neil



"they call me frenchy" > wrote in message
...
> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
> need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
> (selling at shows).
>
> Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
> thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
> sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
> hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
> rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>
> With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
> studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
> situation......
>
> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.
>
> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?
>
> thx for any insight,
> frenchy

[knud]

If you do end up doing it for free, lets hope they don't kick you out as
soon as they got what they wanted from you. This, sadly, is a fairly common
occurence when players know you have a studio.


blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

[knud]

Split the cost between all members, as if you were going to another
studio. Reduce the rates, and charge yourself nothing (it's you studio after
all!) If they don't go for it, then go to another studio and split the costs,
yourself included. As another posted noted, your offer will start to look real
good!


blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

[knud]

>I think you should book the band (your band) in your studio to record your
>demo when time is available
>and do it for free. Is that not part of the reason for them letting you join
>the band? (??)

If so, quit the band immediately. They will fire you as soon as the
recording is done in that case.


blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

[mbenson]

"they call me frenchy" > wrote
>
> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.

Just tell everyone that your studio is not available, and that the offended
member of the band should negotiate the deal with another studio to take
care of the recording.
I'll bet they see things in a different light, once the real world starts
slapping them in the face.
--
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
405.728.7005

[Hassan]

"msparti" > wrote in message >...
> I'm a bass player...and have a studio...I'll record them for free. So long
> as they fire your ass.
> kidding,.... lol... I wouldn't charge my band to record in my studio. I
> just wouldnt.
>
> I think you should book the band (your band) in your studio to record your
> demo when time is available
> and do it for free. Is that not part of the reason for them letting you join
> the band?

What?!?

On first view of it, that would seem a lame reason to include a "band
member," IMHO. If engineering was his sole role, perhaps. However, I
would hope that Frenchy is in the band because he is a darned good
bass player in addition to being technically inclined...

So, Frenchy is a player in the band AND the recording engineer AND the
mix engineer AND studio owner. Either his percentage splits should
accurately reflect his added value or he should be paid market rate
for his services that are above and beyond what the other band members
are contributing. ‘Tis only fair... Anything less puts undue pressure
on the fragile web that ties a band. And that pressure often gets
reflected in the music.

Frenchy, follow Dave Martin's advice... Also, get a viable manager as
soon as you can.

Best of luck,

Hassan Davis
Lisa Lopes Studios
Atlanta

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
> need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
> (selling at shows).
>
> Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
> thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
> sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
> hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
> rate for my studio = approx $1200).

Sounds like a good deal to me. Did the band agree with it?

> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged.

I guess not.

> Where do I go from here?

Tell the band that you'd rather just concentrate on being a band
member and not also be the engineer for this project. Then take them
into a studio and split up the cost. The time you don't spend mixing
and re-doing stuff for the band in your studio (for no money because
they'll remind you that it's YOUR demo too) you can be making money
with real paying clients.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Dik LeDoux]

No moral issue. You've spent time and money to put together a recording
facility. You charge people for it. Your regular prices minus your share
would be a perfectly fine deal and it sounds like you've offered better than
that.

I've done my band for free - but I'm not running a business. I just like
recording and don't have money to pay for my share of taking it somewhere
else. And my bandmates will do what they can like putting out hundreds of
flyers and making sure ALL their friends come to gigs, or cut me slack when
I can't make practice because of my job. When people I know outside of my
band have asked for help, I've charged them - seriously UNDER charged them -
but charged nonetheless. Paying for the service made them focus on getting
done and performing well. If they weren't happy with the results, I'd
consider not charging - but the fact is that they asked me because they know
I do good work.

If your band is only using your facility because it's free then they're just
being cheap. They'll **** and moan about the results the entire time and
take way longer than they should to finish. If they want to use you and
your facility because you do superior work, they're insulting you by
complaining about paying.

Tell them to grow up and go easy on yourself.

my .02

dik

[Tracy Wintermute]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:39:45 -0500, they call me frenchy
> wrote:


> (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
>rate for my studio = approx $1200).

The fact that _you_ could 'potentially' benefit from the project makes
things a bit messy.... however;

The place where I would feel 'morally obligated' to bend would be:

A) To divide your estimated card ($1,200) by the number of bandmates,
and provide your share at no cost, because, in reality you are paying
your share with in-kind services... sort of...

B) See if they are willing to put their moral money where their moral
mouth is; read on to see what I mean...

Do any of the other bandmates have a "day gig?"
Will they offer you, at no charge, an equivalent amount of the
goods/services that they perform for a living, in exchange for your
goods/services?

Examples:
If one of the members is in the "French Fryin' Legion," will he/she
provide you $240 (assuming five members) worth of Big Macs and Fish
Head Filet sandwiches at no charge? At your specified intervals?

If one is a mechanic, will he/she rebuild your engine or transaxle at
no charge?

If day gig challenged, will they do in-kind repairs or maintenance
around your home or property?

================================

I have used that last example with some " come on, give us a break, we
ain't rich " type folks, who were not my band, as a form of barter for
partial payments. Got them to do pruning in the orchard, cut and split
firewood, paint the basement, and other things which would have either
cost me time or money.

I think your idea of waiting on what amounts to "royalties" as
repayment is fundamentally flawed.

Just my opinions......


====================
Tracy Wintermute

Rushcreek Ranch
====================

[Neil Henderson]

>He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
>expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
>whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
>month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
>business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
>either really.
>
>Hmmmmmmm......
>Where do I go from here?

Tell him "Fine, we'll record somewhere else, and we'll split the cost equally
- of course there's a pretty good chance that it'll be more than my original
offer of $1,200, but I'm game if you are."

NeilH

[msparti]

"Hassan" > wrote in message
om...
> "msparti" > wrote in message
>...
> > I'm a bass player...and have a studio...I'll record them for free. So
long
> > as they fire your ass.
> > kidding,.... lol... I wouldn't charge my band to record in my studio. I
> > just wouldnt.
> >
> > I think you should book the band (your band) in your studio to record
your
> > demo when time is available
> > and do it for free. Is that not part of the reason for them letting you
join
> > the band?
>
> What?!?
>
> On first view of it, that would seem a lame reason to include a "band
> member," IMHO.

True, it is lame..but sometimes u gotta do what u gotta do to get the job
done....right?
and besides....it was more of a question...not a statement! and not
unlikely. (in general)

If engineering was his sole role, perhaps. However, I
> would hope that Frenchy is in the band because he is a darned good
> bass player in addition to being technically inclined...
>
> So, Frenchy is a player in the band AND the recording engineer AND the
> mix engineer AND studio owner. Either his percentage splits should
> accurately reflect his added value or he should be paid market rate
> for his services that are above and beyond what the other band members
> are contributing. 'Tis only fair... Anything less puts undue pressure
> on the fragile web that ties a band. And that pressure often gets
> reflected in the music.

Everyone has to get paid, but If I run a studio, and have a BAND (That I am
a member of)...well....the band gets to record FREE in my studio in my OFF
time where it doesnt interfier with regular studio clients. I mean, I would
rather (and totally enjoy) record my own or a colaboration than someone
else's crap. more satifaction, can take as long as you want...etc. But, then
again...if the band is makin money then...sure, i'd like to get some
compensation, especially if they are sofa kings.

Either way, unless an understanding is met, he could well be writing his own
pinkslip.

>
> Frenchy, follow Dave Martin's advice... Also, get a viable manager as
> soon as you can.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Hassan Davis
> Lisa Lopes Studios
> Atlanta

[[email protected]]

> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?
>
> thx for any insight,
> frenchy

It's funny to me that musicians and, I guess, artists, in general,
have a socialist view of many things, especially when it suits them.
The problem with that is that one person usually gets screwed while
everyone else sits on their asses and benefits. This always ends up in
resentments being built up that will eventually turn into unnecessary
arguments. The fact is that if any band reaches success, they will
have a myriad of things that need to be divided and settled fairly. If
the guys you are with think it's not cool to discuss things and settle
matters fairly, then you can expect things to be far worse if there's
any real money to deal with.

Brendan Flaherty

[Randall Hyde]

"they call me frenchy" > wrote in message ...
>

> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?
>

Same principle as loaning money to a relative. Don't.
Hire another studio. That way, when things go wrong with the recording
process, the band doesn't break up because the members are all ****ed
at the bass player :-)
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Paul Gitlitz]

After reading all these comments I must consider myself very fortunate
that the bands I've been in and offered the use of my studio never
took me up on the offer. I might now be in the situation your in if
they had. I only band I'm in that I record, is one where we are all
sidemen to the singer who pays everyone through the musicians union
except my studio and production fees which I bill separately. Plus I
get royalties on production and co-writes.
It's just like a reel professional !
Conversely most of the other folks I record are usually friends and
I'm always putting in ridiculous amounts of unbilled time trying to
make stuff sound as good as possible, often with semiprofessional
players.

[Kurt Riemann]

>Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
>thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
>sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
>hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
>rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>

Incidentally, "spec deals" should never be discounted. You Spec to be
paid. You should also be getting interest on the time between the
recordings and full sales money recoupment. You need a percentage on
return commensurate with risk.

If the deal was straightforward, you'd simply be giving a loan much as
a bank would.



Kurt

[Peter Larsen]

they call me frenchy wrote:

> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band.

What if you rent a car for them? - if they do *not* pay you your
standard fee, no special deal of any kind - then you will be supporting
them with the sum of money that is the difference between your normal
price and what they pay. I'm not saying that a rebate may not be
relevant in this or any other specific context, but those are the facts.

> After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.

What about the money that you can not make by having other customers?

> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?

Give the king what belongs to the king and give God what is of God. You
can not pay bills with thank you notes, bank notes are required. Also
even if they were to pay cost only, then they still would have to pay
also for renting the equipment because equipment has a limited life
span. The rebate you could give would be to offer your time, only your
time, not an assistants - and such may be required - for free, but that
is as far as it imo can go.

It poisons a friendship longtime if the ideal and the monetary sphere
gets mixed up. Please note that there are principles and that there are
all kinds of actual situations where the principles and the real world
have to meet each other.

Once upon a time I had a deal with a band that I got equal share. That
deal lasted until I confronted them with a bill for various small
objects, cables, whatever, for their PA.

> thx for any insight,
> frenchy

YMMV, but imo you already did break up, I don't think the difference in
worlds is recoverable. Perhaps I am too pessimistic about this.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Eli Krantzberg]

they call me frenchy > wrote in message >...

> >If recording is your hobby, you shouldn't charge your band. If recording
> >is your living, you already cut them a terrific deal. Everybody in the
> >band should kick in to pay for the studio charges, not just you.

Hi Frenchy,

I have been in the exact same situation as you. I have a small money
making home studio and I play in a working, money making, band. When
we do our demos here, I cut them a good deal, but defintiely get paid.
No one questions this.

My usual rate is $40 per hour. I charge my band $30 per hour instead.
And I exclude a generous number of hours on top that I figure I would
be spending anyway, if we were in another studio, laying my parts down
and being at some of the mixes, etc. It works out fairly for everyone.
I am getting paid and don't feel like I am working for free and the
band gets good studio value. We've done this three times now and
everyone comes out happy.


Eli Krantzberg

[Roger W. Norman]

they call me frenchy" > wrote in message
...
> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
> need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
> (selling at shows).
>
> Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
> thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
> sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40

<snip happens>

The simpler solution is to consider what the recording is for in the first
place, as stated, a demo and a gig sales unit. Nothing magical about it,
just playing what people are used to hearing. For that reason I'd look at
it as I do most any preproduction planning and have the guys over and
practice, taping while we go. No special nothing, no overdubs (can't do
them live), just straight forward playing. Throw up the faders and do a
rough mix, burn CDs and let everyone listen. If that works for them, then
it's a no cost situation as far as I'd be concerned, being a member of the
band.

If this excites them, then I'd charge the whole band X amount of dollars to
do the recordings/mixing, including throwing in my own portion of the
charges (I know, seems stupid to pay yourself, but as a business you're not
paying yourself, you're paying the business). Then pressing charges have to
be split between all members equally, everybody gets their share of CDs, and
everybody keeps their pocketed money from the sales of their portion of the
CDs. Keep a couple of hundred out for gigs, a couple of hundred for give
aways, promotions, etc, and the gig sales get split between everyone. If
someone complains that another band member is making too much money from the
sales of his/her sets, then that just shows that some people have more get
up and go than others. Put that person in charge of promoting the band.
Learn something at every step.

But if someone has some ultimate goals, like promoting and selling their
songs or selling themselves as a solo artist backed by this band, then I'd
charge THEM. Then it would be up to the band members to take some cash as a
"work for hire" and the studio should get it's full normal charges minus any
goodwill one wishes to have attached.

But one needs to understand that once a CD is made, 9 times out of 10 that
will be the end of the band. Just had that happen with a 20 year band. Did
a live gig for them, they dug the recording, and the "leader" and one other
decided to cut out and do their own recording, leaving the rest of the band
in a lurch, ostensibly because of the other's playing inabilities. Were
they to ask I'd have to say there was enough wrong to go around that nobody
should think they could be a star. Egos, bands and recordings apparently
don't really mix well (has happened maybe 15 times with bands I've recorded
(ok, so that's not 9 times out of 10, but I was talking on a wider basis).
I'm amazed that rock acts stay together as long as they do, but just as
obviously there's no time frame that says that will happen. Only knowing
the committment of the others in the band can even offer a glimmer of hope
once a CD gets done. First personalities will change and then personnel
will change. Bet on it.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"
> hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
> rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>
> With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
> studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
> situation......
>
> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.
>
> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?
>
> thx for any insight,
> frenchy

[James Perrett]

they call me frenchy wrote:
>
> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
> need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
> (selling at shows).

If you are doing well then why not set aside some of the money you earn
from gigs to pay for recording. That way it doesn't hurt the band
members quite so much as they never have the money in the first place.

I've been in your situation - although sometimes my business partner was
also in the band. My business partner was possibly more finance minded
than me and made it clear that the band would pay for the recording,
albeit at a reduced rate.

Just lately I've been recording our band for nothing but we've been
doing it the old way, live with 4 songs down in an afternoon session.

Cheers.

James.

[BLCKOUT420]

I'm in the same band for the last 10 years. We have recorded in my studio many
times. I don't charge them. Thats just me.
If your band just wants a demo,it will be no sweat for you to bring them in
for one afternoon-same time as you would spend at a practice- whip out a real
fast demo,no frills,major overdubs, just a quick get you work cd.
Representative of what a club will get live.That should appease them and keep
you from getting a reputation as a mercenary *******.

[Robert Blank]

I was asked many times to either 'front' time or 'invest' in a group
when I had my facilities in NY. The deals always 'went away' when real
$$s were talked about.

In your case, I really feel that perhaps the cost of the studio minus
your share of the group (if you are 4 and there is an equal split, then
the cost of the studio is 75%). Hope they are honest with themselves as
to your worth in the studio as well as in the group.



they call me frenchy > wrote:

> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
> need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
> (selling at shows).
>
> Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
> thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
> sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
> hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
> rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>
> With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
> studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
> situation......
>
> When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
> wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
> was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
> expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
> whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
> month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
> business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
> either really.
>
> Hmmmmmmm......
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?
>
> thx for any insight,
> frenchy

[Andy Eng]

Something I haven't seen posted and that would be to take a few
further steps to the title of Producer which should entitle you to a
greater share of the reimbursement should your group hit a mother
lode.

Just a thought...

Andy


On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:39:45 -0500, they call me frenchy
> wrote:

>I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
>is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
>equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
>I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area. We are in
>need of a demo for promotional use and also for merchandise use
>(selling at shows).
>
>Since I am in the band, I wanted to give them a good deal. I was
>thinking to record them with no money down and then receive a %age of
>sales up to $1200 or so, which is a fair price for me putting 30-40
>hours into it. (approx 40hrs recording and mixing * $30/hr reduced
>rate for my studio = approx $1200).
>
>With this arrangement, the band doesnt have to front money and the
>studio gets compensated in the end. In my mind, this is a win-win
>situation......
>
>When one of the key/founding members of the band found out that I
>wanted to be re-imbursed for recording the very band that I am in, he
>was outraged. He couldnt believe that morally I would even consider
>expecting money to record my own band. After a discussion, he
>whole-heartedly agreed that the band should pay my $200 rent for the
>month that we are in my space to "cover expenses". The band has no
>business manager and no "real-world" business experience....I dont
>either really.
>
>Hmmmmmmm......
>Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
>do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
>need a business mediator/consultant?
>
>thx for any insight,
>frenchy

[Twist Turner]

Does any one in the band run a business? Try asking a constuction
company owner in the band to put an addtion on your house, or paint your
apt for free. Ask the restraunt owner to feed you and your family for
free for a couple months. It's just as rediculous as using your studio
for nothing.

What if a multi track goes down mid session? Your gonna need, $200-600
just to get it back up and running (I just paid $650 to get mine back up
and running). Who's gonna pay for that? If they are not paying you, how
can you pay for it? If you are bumping someone else to do this, how can
you expect to make a living?

Luckily the musicians around here aren't smart enough to have tried to
use me in this way, so I haven't had to deal with it. If they knew I
had the ability to give them major label quality product, they'd
probably be all over me, but they are too self centered and worried
about themselves and how great they think they are, and getting the next
little $200 gig to be worried about what I could actually do to turn
their careers around and get them the exposure they need which would
make them real money in the long run.



Twist Turner
http://tinyurl.com/ul70

[S O'Neill]

Maybe a trade: ask for equal time building your new patio or a new iso booth.
See if they keep the same philosophy, or understand the situation better.

they call me frenchy wrote:

> I run a recording studio and am trying to make a business of it. It
> is going well. I have returning clients and I am buying more
> equipment and expanding my operation with my profits.
>
> I also play bass in a band that is doing well in our area.

[knud]

>Examples:
>If one of the members is in the "French Fryin' Legion," will he/she
>provide you $240 (assuming five members) worth of Big Macs and Fish
>Head Filet sandwiches at no charge? At your specified intervals?
>If one is a mechanic, will he/she rebuild your engine or transaxle at
>no charge?

Maybe one of them is a pimp!




blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

[Ricky W. Hunt]

I'd for sure charge some kind of hourly rate. I've found when you "let
friend's" record they eat up an huge amount of time running their mouth,
playing the sames lick over and over and wonder why the arrangement isn't
getting better, etc. They wouldn't dare waste that much time (and yours) if
they were paying for it.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Does any one in the band run a business? Try asking a constuction
> company owner in the band to put an addtion on your house, or paint your
> apt for free.

Certainly reasonable, if that's where the band rehearses.

> Ask the restraunt owner to feed you and your family for
> free for a couple months.

Well, maybe not your family, but feed the band after every gig, and
provide food for the recording sessions.

> It's just as rediculous as using your studio for nothing.

Of course. I was just kidding.

> What if a multi track goes down mid session? Your gonna need, $200-600
> just to get it back up and running (I just paid $650 to get mine back up
> and running). Who's gonna pay for that? If they are not paying you, how
> can you pay for it?

That's a little different. If someone in the band dumped a coke into
the multitrack, it would be reasonable to expect them to pay for the
repair. But given that this is a working studio, equipment fails and
it can fail at any time. You don't use the money you get from one
session to pay for what breaks during that session, you get enough
money from EVERY session so that you have a fund to pay for
maintenance when you need it. It's like paying every month for your
health insurance. But if you do a session at no cost, you don't have
that session's contribution to your maintenance fund.

I still think the best approach for this band is to go to another
studio. It's hard to play your best when you're recording, and even
harder if you're the recording engineer. The most important thing
about recording is to give a top flight performance. I don't think it
would be difficult for the original poster to convince the band that
they'd get a better recording if he could concentrate on making music
rather than technical details (and how he's going to feed his family
that week because he wasn't getting any income from the studio).



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[5016]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1069768399k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> I still think the best approach for this band is to go to another
> studio. It's hard to play your best when you're recording, and even
> harder if you're the recording engineer. The most important thing
> about recording is to give a top flight performance. I don't think it
> would be difficult for the original poster to convince the band that
> they'd get a better recording if he could concentrate on making music
> rather than technical details (and how he's going to feed his family
> that week because he wasn't getting any income from the studio).

He wouldn't get income for the week that he is recording in another
studio either. If the band records in his studio, then he is the only
guy who gets paid that week. Also, I'd be interested in what %age
booked his studio is. If he isn't turning away customers, then it
wouldn't cost him that much to bring the band in. Without knowing the
individual, we don't know whether he does a session a week or a works
12 hour days in the studio. Is this a PC with Cubase or a functional
studio with rent to pay? Is his hourly rate a market rate at which he
is booked to capacity or something that he wishes was his hourly rate?

Which is not to say that he shouldn't get paid something. There is
rent, utilities, amortization of equipment, cost of media. But if
no-one else is getting paid for that week and they're making
sacrifices then why shouldn't he? I would regard the fair amount as
the hourly cost of the studio less the hourly cost of his labor,
because everyone else is not making their labor costs for this period
as well.

I wouldn't charge my own band for this if I was in his position,
because anyone can see that this is going to cause a problem. The
correct solution is, as Mike says, to do it somewhere else. Doing it
this way is going to lead to both sides feeling ripped off.
Compartmentalize your life. Be one of those annoying musicians who
goes to someone else's studio and offers continual friendly advice on
how the engineer should be doing his job.

[Blind Joni]

>He wouldn't get income for the week that he is recording in another
>studio either.

He won't have to be there to engineer all the tracking, mixing,
editing,,etc..etc.

> If the band records in his studio, then he is the only
>guy who gets paid that week.

And he is the only guy using the studio to make a living. That's like driving
your band around in your cab for nothing.



>Is this a PC with Cubase or a functional
>studio with rent to pay?

Not necessarily mutually exclusive

..> I would regard the fair amount as
>the hourly cost of the studio less the hourly cost of his labor,
>because everyone else is not making their labor costs for this period

I agree on his labor but did he say the other band members get paid for
recording otherwise? They may have to take time off from work which may be
figured in.


> Be one of those annoying musicians who
>goes to someone else's studio and offers continual friendly advice on
>how the engineer should be doing his job.

You know how we all love that!!!!




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> He wouldn't get income for the week that he is recording in another
> studio either.

True, if the band was in the studio full time, but if they recorded 3
hours a day, he could book four hours in his own studio and he
wouldn't have his band hanging around wanting to hear the playbacks
and do another overdub and go out for a pizza. It's easier to handle
business when you're not among friends.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Timo Haanpää]

they call me frenchy wrote:
> Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> need a business mediator/consultant?

Personally, I prefer not to record the band I'm in at all, because
that way I get the pressure of being in the band, performance
pressure and engineering/mixing pressure all at once. It builds up
and it can get really stressful, especially if the rest of the band
don't undertand to appreaciate my efforts.

But whenever I do, I do it for free with a rule that I make sure
is strictly obeyed: Paying customers get priority. Our current
demo has been in the works for 2 years now, I think.....

Timo

[Tommy B]

I was once asked this question?
Is this a band or a herd?
Might be time to Mooooove **** around.
Tom





"Timo Haanpää" > wrote in message
...
> they call me frenchy wrote:
> > Where do I go from here? Even if it is too late for this session, how
> > do I handle such situations in the future? Am I morally inept? Do we
> > need a business mediator/consultant?
>
> Personally, I prefer not to record the band I'm in at all, because
> that way I get the pressure of being in the band, performance
> pressure and engineering/mixing pressure all at once. It builds up
> and it can get really stressful, especially if the rest of the band
> don't undertand to appreaciate my efforts.
>
> But whenever I do, I do it for free with a rule that I make sure
> is strictly obeyed: Paying customers get priority. Our current
> demo has been in the works for 2 years now, I think.....
>
> Timo