My 50Hz Hum may be unavoidable...

[Brian Huether]

Well, I am starting to think that I have to live with my 50Hz hum problem.
Talked to my landlord about the wiring of his apartment. He said a ground
fault system ensures that there is no bad ground at the outlets. Since I get
hum even with everything else unplugged I am thinking it is not a typical
ground loop type of hum. My landlord told me there is a 10,000V something or
other 300m from the apartment (my German is not good enough to know exactly
what he was referring to). So I am thinking that might be the culprit. I
don't see myself solving this problem!

-brian

[Scott Dorsey]

Brian Huether > wrote:
>Well, I am starting to think that I have to live with my 50Hz hum problem.
>Talked to my landlord about the wiring of his apartment. He said a ground
>fault system ensures that there is no bad ground at the outlets.

No, that's not what a ground fault system does. A ground fault system
ensures that nobody gets hurt when there is a bad ground at the outlets.

>Since I get
>hum even with everything else unplugged I am thinking it is not a typical
>ground loop type of hum. My landlord told me there is a 10,000V something or
>other 300m from the apartment (my German is not good enough to know exactly
>what he was referring to). So I am thinking that might be the culprit. I
>don't see myself solving this problem!

It is probably radiated RF trash, or RF trash conducted along the power
line. Unplug the amp... as the amp fades out, does the hum fade out slowly
with it, or does it disappear instantly? if it disappears instantly, it
is trash coming in on the power line.

All of this is probably discussed in the FAQ for this group. The reason
so many people are ****y at you is that people come in with this same
question here on a regular basis and most folks here are tired of explaining
how this stuff works over and over again.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Dobony]

"Brian Huether" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I am starting to think that I have to live with my 50Hz hum problem.
> Talked to my landlord about the wiring of his apartment. He said a ground
> fault system ensures that there is no bad ground at the outlets. Since I
get
> hum even with everything else unplugged I am thinking it is not a typical
> ground loop type of hum. My landlord told me there is a 10,000V something
or
> other 300m from the apartment (my German is not good enough to know
exactly
> what he was referring to). So I am thinking that might be the culprit. I
> don't see myself solving this problem!
>

If it is a problem with the electrical lines, a hum eliminator might work.

--
Mike D.

www.stopassaultnow.org

Remove .spamnot to respond by email


> -brian
>
>


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[Brian Huether]

The way the ground fault here works is that if there is a bad ground at the
outlet, then power is cut off to the whole apartment. So if my problems were
due to bad grounding at the outlet then I would know because of the fault
protector's action.

I haven't ruled out that the power line is letting in junk, but I just want
to take a step away from this problem for a while because it is bringing me
down! Playing guitar is my hobby - this audio engineering side of things is
a by-product of my desire to make some quality recordings. I think for now I
will live with the hum!

thanks,

brian
"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Brian Huether > wrote:
> >Well, I am starting to think that I have to live with my 50Hz hum
problem.
> >Talked to my landlord about the wiring of his apartment. He said a ground
> >fault system ensures that there is no bad ground at the outlets.
>
> No, that's not what a ground fault system does. A ground fault system
> ensures that nobody gets hurt when there is a bad ground at the outlets.
>
> >Since I get
> >hum even with everything else unplugged I am thinking it is not a typical
> >ground loop type of hum. My landlord told me there is a 10,000V something
or
> >other 300m from the apartment (my German is not good enough to know
exactly
> >what he was referring to). So I am thinking that might be the culprit. I
> >don't see myself solving this problem!
>
> It is probably radiated RF trash, or RF trash conducted along the power
> line. Unplug the amp... as the amp fades out, does the hum fade out
slowly
> with it, or does it disappear instantly? if it disappears instantly, it
> is trash coming in on the power line.
>
> All of this is probably discussed in the FAQ for this group. The reason
> so many people are ****y at you is that people come in with this same
> question here on a regular basis and most folks here are tired of
explaining
> how this stuff works over and over again.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Brian Huether > wrote:
>The way the ground fault here works is that if there is a bad ground at the
>outlet, then power is cut off to the whole apartment. So if my problems were
>due to bad grounding at the outlet then I would know because of the fault
>protector's action.

No.

The way ground fault interruptors work is that if there is an imbalance
in current between the two power leads, it disconnects the line. It will,
in fact, work without any ground connection at all. This is an EU requirement
and it's the whole point of the system that it deals with bad grounding
issues by eliminating the safety requirement for the ground.

>I haven't ruled out that the power line is letting in junk, but I just want
>to take a step away from this problem for a while because it is bringing me
>down! Playing guitar is my hobby - this audio engineering side of things is
>a by-product of my desire to make some quality recordings. I think for now I
>will live with the hum!

Whatever. If you don't want to be bothered to solve your own problems, why
come here?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Brian Huether]

Man, bad attitude must be contagious around here. Do you not appreciate the
need to distance yourself from a problem sometimes in order to retackle it
with better clarity of mind?

By the way, I did what you said and powered it down. The hum goes away right
away. Thanks for the insight. Maybe I will try a power conditioner.

I am just describing this fault thing the way my landlord explained it to
me. He said if there was a bad ground at the outlet, there would be no
electricity in the apartment.

-brian

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Brian Huether > wrote:
> >The way the ground fault here works is that if there is a bad ground at
the
> >outlet, then power is cut off to the whole apartment. So if my problems
were
> >due to bad grounding at the outlet then I would know because of the fault
> >protector's action.
>
> No.
>
> The way ground fault interruptors work is that if there is an imbalance
> in current between the two power leads, it disconnects the line. It will,
> in fact, work without any ground connection at all. This is an EU
requirement
> and it's the whole point of the system that it deals with bad grounding
> issues by eliminating the safety requirement for the ground.
>
> >I haven't ruled out that the power line is letting in junk, but I just
want
> >to take a step away from this problem for a while because it is bringing
me
> >down! Playing guitar is my hobby - this audio engineering side of things
is
> >a by-product of my desire to make some quality recordings. I think for
now I
> >will live with the hum!
>
> Whatever. If you don't want to be bothered to solve your own problems,
why
> come here?
> --scott
>
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[e]

go to USA you will have 100 hz and you solve problem whit 50 hz

--
http://www.sonarscope.com


"Brian Huether" > wrote in message
...
> Man, bad attitude must be contagious around here. Do you not appreciate
the
> need to distance yourself from a problem sometimes in order to retackle it
> with better clarity of mind?
>
> By the way, I did what you said and powered it down. The hum goes away
right
> away. Thanks for the insight. Maybe I will try a power conditioner.
>
> I am just describing this fault thing the way my landlord explained it to
> me. He said if there was a bad ground at the outlet, there would be no
> electricity in the apartment.
>
> -brian
>
> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Brian Huether > wrote:
> > >The way the ground fault here works is that if there is a bad ground at
> the
> > >outlet, then power is cut off to the whole apartment. So if my problems
> were
> > >due to bad grounding at the outlet then I would know because of the
fault
> > >protector's action.
> >
> > No.
> >
> > The way ground fault interruptors work is that if there is an imbalance
> > in current between the two power leads, it disconnects the line. It
will,
> > in fact, work without any ground connection at all. This is an EU
> requirement
> > and it's the whole point of the system that it deals with bad grounding
> > issues by eliminating the safety requirement for the ground.
> >
> > >I haven't ruled out that the power line is letting in junk, but I just
> want
> > >to take a step away from this problem for a while because it is
bringing
> me
> > >down! Playing guitar is my hobby - this audio engineering side of
things
> is
> > >a by-product of my desire to make some quality recordings. I think for
> now I
> > >will live with the hum!
> >
> > Whatever. If you don't want to be bothered to solve your own problems,
> why
> > come here?
> > --scott
> >
> >
> > --
> > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
>

[henryf]

Brian Huether wrote:

> I am just describing this fault thing the way my landlord explained it to
> me. He said if there was a bad ground at the outlet, there would be no
> electricity in the apartment.

What your landlord said is not completely true. If the
electrician switched the ground and neutral leads at the
outlet, then the ground fault interrupter ought to trip.
However, there are many other types of bad ground at the
outlet, such as no ground at all, that wouldn't trip the
ground fault interrupter.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Well, I am starting to think that I have to live with my 50Hz hum problem.
> Talked to my landlord about the wiring of his apartment. He said a ground
> fault system ensures that there is no bad ground at the outlets.

Nope, that's not what a ground fault system does. It makes sure that
if there's a ground fault with something plugged into an outlet, that
outlet gets disconnected from the mains power PDQ.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[e]

don't be to pro somtimes a litle jock help to get away from a problem and
you come back fresh with new idea

emil

"e" > wrote in message
...
> go to USA you will have 100 hz and you solve problem whit 50 hz
>
> --
> http://www.sonarscope.com
>
>
> "Brian Huether" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Man, bad attitude must be contagious around here. Do you not appreciate
> the
> > need to distance yourself from a problem sometimes in order to retackle
it
> > with better clarity of mind?
> >
> > By the way, I did what you said and powered it down. The hum goes away
> right
> > away. Thanks for the insight. Maybe I will try a power conditioner.
> >
> > I am just describing this fault thing the way my landlord explained it
to
> > me. He said if there was a bad ground at the outlet, there would be no
> > electricity in the apartment.
> >
> > -brian
> >
> > "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Brian Huether > wrote:
> > > >The way the ground fault here works is that if there is a bad ground
at
> > the
> > > >outlet, then power is cut off to the whole apartment. So if my
problems
> > were
> > > >due to bad grounding at the outlet then I would know because of the
> fault
> > > >protector's action.
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > > The way ground fault interruptors work is that if there is an
imbalance
> > > in current between the two power leads, it disconnects the line. It
> will,
> > > in fact, work without any ground connection at all. This is an EU
> > requirement
> > > and it's the whole point of the system that it deals with bad
grounding
> > > issues by eliminating the safety requirement for the ground.
> > >
> > > >I haven't ruled out that the power line is letting in junk, but I
just
> > want
> > > >to take a step away from this problem for a while because it is
> bringing
> > me
> > > >down! Playing guitar is my hobby - this audio engineering side of
> things
> > is
> > > >a by-product of my desire to make some quality recordings. I think
for
> > now I
> > > >will live with the hum!
> > >
> > > Whatever. If you don't want to be bothered to solve your own
problems,
> > why
> > > come here?
> > > --scott
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
> >
> >
>
>

[Scott Dorsey]

Brian Huether > wrote:
>Man, bad attitude must be contagious around here. Do you not appreciate the
>need to distance yourself from a problem sometimes in order to retackle it
>with better clarity of mind?

Sometimes, but you have not answered the questions.

>By the way, I did what you said and powered it down. The hum goes away right
>away. Thanks for the insight. Maybe I will try a power conditioner.

Okay, THIS tells you something. This tells you that you have line harmonics
coming in from the power line.

You could try a power conditioner, but it might be easier to find out where
the source is. Got any dimmers or touch lamps? Have the folks in the
adjacent apartments got any? Those would be the first places to look as
far as sources of line noise go.

>I am just describing this fault thing the way my landlord explained it to
>me. He said if there was a bad ground at the outlet, there would be no
>electricity in the apartment.

The way these work is that if there is leakage to ground _at the appliance_
it will pop the GFI off. It could be leakage to the safety ground pin on
the plug, or it could be leakage to another circuit or to a cement slab.
If you're standing on a wet floor and plug a fork into the hot lead of the
outlet, the GFI senses that there is more current on the hot lead than is
being returned on the neutral (and therefore some current is faulting to
ground), and it shuts off immediately. It'll do this even with the ground
lead disconnected. Very neat gadget, and one that has saved a lot of lives.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Victor]

"Brian Huether" wrote:
> ...My landlord told me there is a 10,000V something or
> other 300m from the apartment ...
---------------------------------------------

I think, he meant high power line...
I heard, in Europe they are "in-ground", rather then "overhead"...

Victor

[Brian Huether]

My landlord was touchy when I suggested there might not be a ground
connection. He told me his background is in this kind of stuff and then
talked proudly about this protection mechanism (does sound pretty damn
useful!). Sometimes if I turn off my step down transformer (which I use with
my US gear - but even without it in the picture I have hum through my local
gear) and something plugged into it is still turned on, then this fault
circuit engages (especially annoying if it happens at night!).

This problem is bringing me down though. I find that I am not as excited
about picking up my guitar because I know that I am going to hear this
hum... But looks like there is hope afterall!

Thanks for the tips and patience.

-brian
"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Brian Huether > wrote:
> >Man, bad attitude must be contagious around here. Do you not appreciate
the
> >need to distance yourself from a problem sometimes in order to retackle
it
> >with better clarity of mind?
>
> Sometimes, but you have not answered the questions.
>
> >By the way, I did what you said and powered it down. The hum goes away
right
> >away. Thanks for the insight. Maybe I will try a power conditioner.
>
> Okay, THIS tells you something. This tells you that you have line
harmonics
> coming in from the power line.
>
> You could try a power conditioner, but it might be easier to find out
where
> the source is. Got any dimmers or touch lamps? Have the folks in the
> adjacent apartments got any? Those would be the first places to look as
> far as sources of line noise go.
>
> >I am just describing this fault thing the way my landlord explained it to
> >me. He said if there was a bad ground at the outlet, there would be no
> >electricity in the apartment.
>
> The way these work is that if there is leakage to ground _at the
appliance_
> it will pop the GFI off. It could be leakage to the safety ground pin on
> the plug, or it could be leakage to another circuit or to a cement slab.
> If you're standing on a wet floor and plug a fork into the hot lead of the
> outlet, the GFI senses that there is more current on the hot lead than is
> being returned on the neutral (and therefore some current is faulting to
> ground), and it shuts off immediately. It'll do this even with the ground
> lead disconnected. Very neat gadget, and one that has saved a lot of
lives.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Peter Larsen]

Brian Huether wrote:

> Well, I am starting to think that I have to live with my 50Hz hum problem.
> Talked to my landlord about the wiring of his apartment. He said a ground
> fault system ensures that there is no bad ground at the outlets.

N/A

> Since I get
> hum even with everything else unplugged I am thinking it is not a typical
> ground loop type of hum.

Agreed.

> My landlord told me there is a 10,000V something or
> other 300m from the apartment (my German is not good enough to know exactly
> what he was referring to).

10 kilovolt powerline.

> So I am thinking that might be the culprit. I
> don't see myself solving this problem!

Is it only valve equipment that has the problem?

> -brian


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Peter Larsen]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> All of this is probably discussed in the FAQ for this group. The reason
> so many people are ****y at you is that people come in with this same
> question here on a regular basis and most folks here are tired of explaining
> how this stuff works over and over again.

A 10 kV powerline and european mains standard is not the regular
question, but unfortunately too many variables were left undefined by
the questionee.

> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"like a nagra - uhm" ... a musician said when listening to my modded DAT
..... O;-)


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Peter Larsen]

Brian Huether wrote:

> I am just describing this fault thing the way my landlord explained it to
> me. He said if there was a bad ground at the outlet, there would be no
> electricity in the apartment.

IF the receptacle does not see the same current come in as went out,
then the relay will trip. This means that if you conduct mains to
ground, the relay will trip, it will not trip if you short circuit
something. It has none, no, keine, zilch, zero relationship to this.
Also: such a relay does not provide any hum protection benefits of any
kind, it has no relevance for that kind of problem.

It is probably - as your landlord tried to explain - a matter of
radiation directly from the powerline into the valves of the amp. It may
be that your amp requires a ground in the mains outlet and hasn't got
one. It may be that additional hum screening may help.

The problem with your question is that there are to many americans with
all their grounded outlets used to ground loops being the cause of the
problem.

It may benefit to take this problem to where it belongs: rec.audio.tech
.... crossposting and followup-to: added.

> -brian


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> My landlord was touchy when I suggested there might not be a ground
> connection. He told me his background is in this kind of stuff and then
> talked proudly about this protection mechanism (does sound pretty damn
> useful!).

Your house wiring over there is different than what we have in the US.
Over here, one blade of the outlet, the "neutral," is connected (the
correct term is "bonded" - a solid mechanical connection as well as an
electrical connection) to ground (the brown dirty stuff under the
house) at the point where power comes into the building. You can stick
one probe of a voltmeter into the dirt and measure the full line
voltage to the hot side of any outlet. If you can't, there's a missing
neutral connection to that outlet.

In Europe, at least in some places, each side of the plug has 120 V
relative to neutral, and neither side is tied to ground. This is
essentially the same configuration as a "balanced power" system such
as as you can buy from Equi-Tech or Furman. By using a differential
input to a unit's power supply, common mode noise carried on the power
line gets cancelled at the unit's power transformer just the same way
as common mode noise picked up by a mic cable gets cancelled at the
input of a balanced mic preamp. The better balanced the source, the
better the cancellation will be. Pole transformers aren't constructed
with the same precision as an Equi-Tech transformer, so you can't
expect the same results when plugging into an outlet in Europe, but
the principle is there.

> Sometimes if I turn off my step down transformer (which I use with
> my US gear - but even without it in the picture I have hum through my local
> gear) and something plugged into it is still turned on, then this fault
> circuit engages (especially annoying if it happens at night!).

I still don't understand what you mean when you say you turn off
things. Are you attempting to reduce any radiated fields that you
create in your own studio? That's a good start, but apparently you
aren't creating the problem, it's somewhere else. Apartments are worse
than houses because there are more things beyond your immediate
control that are connected to the same source that's feeding your
studio.

There's always hope, and there's always a solution, but it's more
complicated for some than for others. You just seem to be particularly
unlucky where you are. My Ampex MM1100 recorder was particularly
sensitive to the hum field radiated by wiring in the wall adjacent to
where it was put (for logistical reasons). I could eliminate the hum
by moving it out from the wall and turning it about 20 degree. Since
this only affected the playback (it was being picked up by the repro
head, and I could hear the phase change as I moved the hum shield on
to and off the head) I just moved the recorder to its "quiet" position
for mixdown and tolerated the little bit of hum during tracking. I
could have rearranged the entire control room to put the recorder
somewhere else, but sometimes it's better to tolerate and adjust than
to reconfigure.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Scott Dorsey]

Brian Huether > wrote:
>My landlord was touchy when I suggested there might not be a ground
>connection. He told me his background is in this kind of stuff and then
>talked proudly about this protection mechanism (does sound pretty damn
>useful!). Sometimes if I turn off my step down transformer (which I use with
>my US gear - but even without it in the picture I have hum through my local
>gear) and something plugged into it is still turned on, then this fault
>circuit engages (especially annoying if it happens at night!).

This could be a little ground leakage through the step-down transformer,
but it could also be that you're generating a little RF that is causing it
to false. I wouldn't worry that much unless it's happening a lot, although
a better step-down transformer (if at all possible get a real isolation
type rather than an autotransformer.... you want "Ubertrager" or
"Isoliertransformator," I think, but you do not want "Spartransformator.")

>This problem is bringing me down though. I find that I am not as excited
>about picking up my guitar because I know that I am going to hear this
>hum... But looks like there is hope afterall!

The easy way to find these things is to start popping breakers at the panel
until the noise goes away, then you know what circuit the noise source is
on. Unfortunately the landlord and other tenants may not appreciate this.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."