There sure are a lot of "newbie" analog tape questions lately

[chetatkinsdiet]

Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.
This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
and even spice tape.
Oh well...just an observation.
later,
m

[Steven Sena]

If it's analog it must be good...
--
Steven Sena
XS Sound
www.xssound.com


"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
...
> Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
> good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
> guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
> to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.
> This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> and even spice tape.
> Oh well...just an observation.
> later,
> m

[Thomas Bishop]

"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
> Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> and even spice tape.

I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of properly
spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

It's very good that a new crop of young people are buying analog tape.
They will keep the manufacturers of analog tape in business that much
longer, so the old guys can hopefully keep using it until they spool
off.

ulysses


In article >,
chetatkinsdiet > wrote:

> Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
> good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
> guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
> to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.
> This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> and even spice tape.
> Oh well...just an observation.
> later,
> m

[Les Cargill]

Thomas Bishop wrote:
>
> "chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
> > Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> > and even spice tape.
>
> I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of properly
> spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.

It's a good thing to know how to do, and it is not hard.

--
Les Cargill

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
m...
> It's very good that a new crop of young people are buying analog tape.
> They will keep the manufacturers of analog tape in business that much
> longer, so the old guys can hopefully keep using it until they spool
> off.
>

That would make a great bumper sticker. "Old Recording Engineers Don't Die,
They Just Spool Off".

[Simon]

On a positive note, I had my 1 inch completely overhauled 2 weeks ago
and it is now humming nicely, I will have it serviced every year now.
There was a tascam guy in town, he relapped, he calibrated, he
aligned, he reconditioned, he biased, he demagged. Thank god he still
lives on the planet. Cost me a grand but it was worth it.

[The Cableguy]

chetatkinsdiet > wrote in message
...
> and even spice tape.

No no noo nooooooooooooo, please, not the return of the spice tapes ... ;-)

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
> good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
> guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
> to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.

Too bad the sellers seem to have lost the manuals (or the buyers can't
imagine that a manual actually tells you how to service and adjust the
equipment so they haven't looked).

> Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> and even spice tape.

New calibration tapes are available from MRL and other sources.
There's plenty of test equipment available and it doesn't cost very
much either. You don't need NTIS traceable calibration to align a tape
deck.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of properly
> spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.

It's really easy, and much more intuitive than doing the equivalent on
a computer. What's easy is that you don't have to keep zooming in and
out and in and out in order to find out where you are, you can listen
to as much or as little as you want to hear when locating the splice
points, and you can listen at any speed that's comfortable, and can
start and stop on a dime (no "coasting" or "latency" with mouse
scrubbing). Also, you can actually see what you're doing as you do it,
not just before and after (though some computer editing paradigms are
better at this than others). I can work with Fast Edit or with my
Mackie HDR24/96, and I'm trying to learn to work with Sequoia. I have
a real problem with Sound Forge or Cool Edit Pro because I don't see
the source (the piece I have in hand and ready to splice into the
destination point) and the destination at the same time.

The hardest thing to get over is that you're actually destroying the
tape. Temper this with the fact that you CAN (and in fact, with every
splice, DO) put it back together again. You just have to be careful,
when cutting out little pieces, that you don't lose the little piece
until you're sure the edit works.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Thomas Bishop]

"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
> > I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of
properly
> > spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.
>
> It's a good thing to know how to do, and it is not hard.

Care to share recipes?

[Scott Dorsey]

Les Cargill > wrote:
>Thomas Bishop wrote:
>>
>> "chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
>> > Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
>> > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
>> > and even spice tape.
>>
>> I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of properly
>> spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.
>
>It's a good thing to know how to do, and it is not hard.

If you use analogue tape, it is an essential thing to do. And in some cases,
it's the reason to use analogue tape in the first place. It's not difficult,
and certainly a lot more convenient than some digital editing systems.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Thomas Bishop > wrote:
>"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
>> > I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of
>properly
>> > spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.
>>
>> It's a good thing to know how to do, and it is not hard.
>
>Care to share recipes?

1. Find the edit point. Rock the reels back and forth until you find exactly
the point where the cut needs to be made. Mark the point of tape right
over the playback head with a white china marker.

(Some people use the record head in sel-synch mode to do this instead of using
the play head, because in some machines it's easier to mark the record head)

2. Find the second edit point.

3. Put the first edit point on the splicing block with the mark directly on
the notch, and pull a (demagnetized) single-edge razor blade across the
notch to cut the tape diagonally.

4. Do the same for the second edit point.

5. Put both ends on the splicing block, butt them together at the notch.

6. Pull one of the splice tabs off of the sheet using the red side of the
tab. Put it over the edit. Smooth down with your fingernails. Then
pull the white side of the tab so the plastic backing comes off.

You have now made a splice. Use the tabs. If you have to use tape, get
the blue tape, but use the tabs if you can get them.

Window editing, using the Robins machine, and the like are left as en
exercise for the student.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill]

Thomas Bishop wrote:
>
> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
> > > I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of
> properly
> > > spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.
> >
> > It's a good thing to know how to do, and it is not hard.
>
> Care to share recipes?


Figure out where to cut. You do this by manually manipulating
the tape in the pat, to find a quiet spot ( or a not
quiet spot in some cases ), rocking the tape back and forth.

Then you find the other end of the edit using the same technique.
Make sure both cuts are oriented the same - the piece being removed
will be a parallelogram. Some people use seamstress' chalk to
mark edit points. White crayon would work, too - just mark
on the back of the tape, not the head side.

You lay the two remaining ends ( don't throw the middle piece
away yet) in the splicing block. Take your splicing tape or
tabs, and splice it. Trim off any excess, then listen to the edit.

If the edit has a problem, figure out what the problem is and
repeat the process. Turn down the electronics and listen to
the tape in the guides for noises that may mean it's not a
good splice, first at slow speed/by hand, then at full speed.

Don't throw the removed peices away until you box the tape, and
you might even wanna baggie 'em and store 'em with the tape.
Probably not.

For broken tapes, just use the appropriate parts above. I'd go
ahead and take a little off the broken ends so the tape doesn't
climb the capstan later. Watch that part when it goes through
the guides.


*IMMEDIATELY* safety all broken tapes,
first thing, without fail ( unless it's already safetied, then
use the safety and maybe make another safety from the original
of the edit isn't too ugly ). Don't run a tape that's broken any
more than you have to. Later, if it's a resuable tape,
do a thourogh inspection of that section and maybe resplice it,
removing any damaged tape around the break. Don't do that if it's
archival footage, just mark the splice position on the box.

For more than one song per tape, put paper or Mylar leader
in to delimit songs. I seem to remember a lot of leader
splices being blunt, not tapered. I suppose that is to synchronize
the transition from leader to tape and vice versa across
tracks.

Window edits, I know nothing of. And measure twice, cut once.

--
Les Cargill

[Michael Putrino]

"Thomas Bishop" > wrote in message >...
> "chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
> > Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> > and even spice tape.
>
> I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of properly
> spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.

Goodness! Why the heck not? You'll never learn unless you try it.
And...it's not that hard...actually quite easy.

Mike Putrino

[P Stamler]

Instead of a china marker/grease pencil, I've always used a Sharpie, because it
doesn't leave little fragments of wax all over the place.

Oh, make sure you degauss your razor blades, too.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

P Stamler > wrote:
>Instead of a china marker/grease pencil, I've always used a Sharpie, because it
>doesn't leave little fragments of wax all over the place.

I find it hard to see, but it is a lot cleaner.

The BASF guys makes tape with white backcoating for this, though, which is
required by some DIN standard for broadcasters in Germany.

>Oh, make sure you degauss your razor blades, too.

Absolutely.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Thomas Bishop wrote:

> "chetatkinsdiet" wrote:

> > Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> > and even spice tape.

> I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of properly
> spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.

I think chetatkinsdiet was talking about Paris Hilton.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> You have now made a splice.

Yeah, but, he said "spice"...

(Isn't this a routine from _One Flew Under the Cuckoo's Nose_?)

--
ha

[Roger W. Norman]

I don't think spicing tape is all that hard to do, but the spice doesn't
stick to the coating too well unless you generate some static electricity.

So which spices do you use with your analog tape? <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
...
> Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
> good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
> guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
> to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.
> This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> and even spice tape.
> Oh well...just an observation.
> later,
> m

[Roger W. Norman]

Well, do you liberally spice or do you spice depending on how well done the
tape will be? <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
...
> Thomas Bishop wrote:
> >
> > "chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
> > > Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> > > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> > > and even spice tape.
> >
> > I know that I personally would never even attempt the challenge of
properly
> > spicing a tape. I'll leave that for more experienced chefs than myself.
>
> It's a good thing to know how to do, and it is not hard.
>
> --
> Les Cargill

[Roger W. Norman]

If you only have 1" then I don't see how you get any humming at all! <g>
But I do believe in getting serviced on a regular schedule! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Simon" > wrote in message
om...
> On a positive note, I had my 1 inch completely overhauled 2 weeks ago
> and it is now humming nicely, I will have it serviced every year now.
> There was a tascam guy in town, he relapped, he calibrated, he
> aligned, he reconditioned, he biased, he demagged. Thank god he still
> lives on the planet. Cost me a grand but it was worth it.

[Thomas Bishop]

"LeBaron & Alrich" > wrote in message
> Yeah, but, he said "spice"...

Yes, I was making a joke. And I'm very disappointed in you guys for not
picking up on it. Even when it's in writing to read over and over again.
<G>

[Buster Mudd]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
> 6. Pull one of the splice tabs off of the sheet using the red side of the
> tab. Put it over the edit. Smooth down with your fingernails. Then
> pull the white side of the tab so the plastic backing comes off.


When I first read this I was like "Huh? I've been cutting & splicing
tape since 1978 and I've never heard of red side, white side,
tabs...WTF? Splicing tape comes on little blue reels!"

Then I realized: I haven't cut or spliced a tape in close to 10 years!
I guess now you can buy single-size portions of splicing tape on a
peel-off sheet? Wow...

(BTW, I prefer to use the back side of the razor blade rather than my
fingernail.)

[Scott Dorsey]

Buster Mudd > wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
>> 6. Pull one of the splice tabs off of the sheet using the red side of the
>> tab. Put it over the edit. Smooth down with your fingernails. Then
>> pull the white side of the tab so the plastic backing comes off.
>
>When I first read this I was like "Huh? I've been cutting & splicing
>tape since 1978 and I've never heard of red side, white side,
>tabs...WTF? Splicing tape comes on little blue reels!"

Call Tape Warehouse! Get the tabs!

I only really started using them a couple years ago, after many years of
using the tape too. The tabs are just wonderful. The best thing that ever
happened to tape editing.

>Then I realized: I haven't cut or spliced a tape in close to 10 years!
>I guess now you can buy single-size portions of splicing tape on a
>peel-off sheet? Wow...

They have actually made the things for decades, but they are more expensive
per splice than the blue tape, so I never used them. Hell, I worked at
stations where they used cellophane tape to save a few bucks and routinely
had splices go bad on the air. But a while ago, I went to the tabs and I
have never looked back.

>(BTW, I prefer to use the back side of the razor blade rather than my
>fingernail.)

Takes more time 'cause you gotta flip it over. I know folks who used the
other end of the grease pencil too.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Doctor Phibes]

(chetatkinsdiet) wrote in message >...
> Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
> good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
> guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
> to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.
> This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> and even spice tape.
> Oh well...just an observation.
> later,
> m

>
I wouldn't mind getting into analog recording again because it suits
how I record. I really don't like or need editing. Sure hard disk
recording is faster, easier to get a clean sound. My problem is unless
I have 10's of thousands of dollars I can't even begin to think about
a Studer, and they are stopping production. Ok used reel to reel.
Where do I even start? I go to a pro audio shop and pay what for
something that could kick the bucket as soon as I hauled it home in my
red flier? Ok I buy a half inch 8 track on ebay by some stranger in
who knows where who always claims it was barely used in a smoke free
studio. I might as well buy a 4 track cassette.

Maybe I'll find a Studer 16 track 2" at the thrift store being sold
as a dishwasher ;-)
William

[EggHd]

<< Maybe I'll find a Studer 16 track 2" at the thrift store being sold
as a dishwasher ;-) >>

A Scully maybe.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[Rob Adelman]

EggHd wrote:

> << Maybe I'll find a Studer 16 track 2" at the thrift store being sold
> as a dishwasher ;-) >>
>
> A Scully maybe.

That would be a mighty big dishwasher..

[EggHd]

<< That would be a mighty big dishwasher.. >>

Industrial?



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[Roger W. Norman]

Ampex 1200 in good condition, but expect to pay JRL Magnetics some money on
the headstack. And buy up every piece of 2" tape stock you can find,
because once it's gone, it's gone.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Doctor Phibes" > wrote in message
m...
> (chetatkinsdiet) wrote in message
>...
> > Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
> > good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
> > guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
> > to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.
> > This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> > and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> > on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> > and even spice tape.
> > Oh well...just an observation.
> > later,
> > m
>
> >
> I wouldn't mind getting into analog recording again because it suits
> how I record. I really don't like or need editing. Sure hard disk
> recording is faster, easier to get a clean sound. My problem is unless
> I have 10's of thousands of dollars I can't even begin to think about
> a Studer, and they are stopping production. Ok used reel to reel.
> Where do I even start? I go to a pro audio shop and pay what for
> something that could kick the bucket as soon as I hauled it home in my
> red flier? Ok I buy a half inch 8 track on ebay by some stranger in
> who knows where who always claims it was barely used in a smoke free
> studio. I might as well buy a 4 track cassette.
>
> Maybe I'll find a Studer 16 track 2" at the thrift store being sold
> as a dishwasher ;-)
> William

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I don't think spicing tape is all that hard to do, but the spice doesn't
> stick to the coating too well unless you generate some static electricity.

It helps if you dip the tape in egg white first.

> So which spices do you use with your analog tape? <g>

Cumin, for sure.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Edi Zubovic]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:24:40 -0500, "Roger W. Norman"
> wrote:

>I don't think spicing tape is all that hard to do, but the spice doesn't
>stick to the coating too well unless you generate some static electricity.
>
>So which spices do you use with your analog tape? <g>

Ummmm, talcum at the oxyde side. It helps with bad and streched
splices so the tape won't stick and gum the head mirror <g>

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[Doctor Phibes]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message >...
> Ampex 1200 in good condition, but expect to pay JRL Magnetics some money on
> the headstack. And buy up every piece of 2" tape stock you can find,
> because once it's gone, it's gone.
>
> --
>
>
> Roger W. Norman
> SirMusic Studio
> Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
> See how far $20 really goes.
>
>
>
>
> "Doctor Phibes" > wrote in message
> m...
> > (chetatkinsdiet) wrote in message
> >...
> > > Seems to be a lot of "how do i align this" or "is this TRS-?? any
> > > good". Maybe this just means that there's a whole new crop of
> > > guys...the TapeOp generation that are buying these old decks for next
> > > to nothing from the proper studios/engineers.
> > > This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> > > and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> > > on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> > > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> > > and even spice tape.
> > > Oh well...just an observation.
> > > later,
> > > m
>
> > >
> > I wouldn't mind getting into analog recording again because it suits
> > how I record. I really don't like or need editing. Sure hard disk
> > recording is faster, easier to get a clean sound. My problem is unless
> > I have 10's of thousands of dollars I can't even begin to think about
> > a Studer, and they are stopping production. Ok used reel to reel.
> > Where do I even start? I go to a pro audio shop and pay what for
> > something that could kick the bucket as soon as I hauled it home in my
> > red flier? Ok I buy a half inch 8 track on ebay by some stranger in
> > who knows where who always claims it was barely used in a smoke free
> > studio. I might as well buy a 4 track cassette.
> >
> > Maybe I'll find a Studer 16 track 2" at the thrift store being sold
> > as a dishwasher ;-)
> > William
>
That's the other thing Roger, the tape. I know some have needs for it
and could afford to have it made. For the rest of us though prices
might skyrocket not that they're cheap now. I happened upon that JRL
site yesterday by coincidence. I just used the Studer name as an
example. Studer is to professional analog as coke is to cola. I'd love
to have say a 1" 8 track. The things is to be able to afford one I'd
really have to want one. Because as you pointed out they will need
servicing. And for the same price I could get a digital standalone or
a fancy computer etc.

William
p.s.

[Doctor Phibes]

(EggHd) wrote in message >...
> << That would be a mighty big dishwasher.. >>
>
> Industrial?
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> "I know enough to know I don't know enough"

>
Stranger things have happened. I remember reading a guitar mag article
about some guy who went on vacation to Mexico. He walked into a shop
and there was a couple of vintage strats in mint condition! He
flipped didn't even have enough to buy both. Apparently the owners had
come to Mexico to retire or something , died off. Since the town had
no electricity the guitars went unused. Nice pick up. Excuse me if my
facts are a little twisted I read it many years ago! That's the basic
idea though.

William

[Roger W. Norman]

"Doctor Phibes" > wrote in message
m...
> That's the other thing Roger, the tape. I know some have needs for it
> and could afford to have it made. For the rest of us though prices
> might skyrocket not that they're cheap now. I happened upon that JRL
> site yesterday by coincidence. I just used the Studer name as an
> example. Studer is to professional analog as coke is to cola. I'd love
> to have say a 1" 8 track. The things is to be able to afford one I'd
> really have to want one. Because as you pointed out they will need
> servicing. And for the same price I could get a digital standalone or
> a fancy computer etc.
>
> William

True, but then it's not tape. And now that it's coming down to it, I guess
I'm going to have to buy a supply of tape so that I'll have some. Also, my
bet is that, in the near future, if one can't offer some tape along with a
recorder for sale, then they probably aren't going to be able to make the
sale.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.

[Rick Powell]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message >...
> I don't think spicing tape is all that hard to do, but the spice doesn't
> stick to the coating too well unless you generate some static electricity.
>
> So which spices do you use with your analog tape? <g>

I was editing a Simon & Garfunkel master, and I used parsley, with a
pinch of sage, rosemary & thyme. However, for L.A. neo-punk funk, I
have found chili peppers, preferably of the red hot variety, to add
that extra "zing". My two assistants, whom I affectionately refer to
as the "splice girls", recently helped me with an Archies compilation
for Rhino, and of course their favorite spice was sugar...oh, honey,
honey.

RP

[Doctor Phibes]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message >...
> "Doctor Phibes" > wrote in message
> m...
> > That's the other thing Roger, the tape. I know some have needs for it
> > and could afford to have it made. For the rest of us though prices
> > might skyrocket not that they're cheap now. I happened upon that JRL
> > site yesterday by coincidence. I just used the Studer name as an
> > example. Studer is to professional analog as coke is to cola. I'd love
> > to have say a 1" 8 track. The things is to be able to afford one I'd
> > really have to want one. Because as you pointed out they will need
> > servicing. And for the same price I could get a digital standalone or
> > a fancy computer etc.
> >
> > William
>
> True, but then it's not tape. And now that it's coming down to it, I guess
> I'm going to have to buy a supply of tape so that I'll have some. Also, my
> bet is that, in the near future, if one can't offer some tape along with a
> recorder for sale, then they probably aren't going to be able to make the
> sale.

>
Well very few places are selling new recorders(analog). It's dying but
so was the record. People still insist on buying vinyl and don't want
digital vinyl. They want the entire process to be vinyl. That means
someone will make it even if it's the chinese as someone suggested.
Unless I missed my guess doesn't most tape come from Japan? Tape makes
sense for me. My biggest worry isn't tuning the machine. It's finding
one that actually acts like it was meant for industrial purposes. even
if i only record say 2-3 songs a week.

william

[Scott Dorsey]

Doctor Phibes > wrote:
>Well very few places are selling new recorders(analog). It's dying but
>so was the record. People still insist on buying vinyl and don't want
>digital vinyl. They want the entire process to be vinyl. That means
>someone will make it even if it's the chinese as someone suggested.
>Unless I missed my guess doesn't most tape come from Japan? Tape makes
>sense for me. My biggest worry isn't tuning the machine. It's finding
>one that actually acts like it was meant for industrial purposes. even
>if i only record say 2-3 songs a week.

No professional analogue tape comes from Japan, now that Maxell has
discontinued 1/4" UD this past spring.

This comes on the heels of Zonal collapsing, so now there is no tape
made in the UK either.

Of course, there is still Quantegy making tape in Alabama, and there
is maybe sort of the old Agfa/BASF plant in Germany (and nobody knows
what is up with that or who owns it as far as I can tell... Emtec,
the Korean folks, have definitely dropped out).

Hanny Magnetics has the old Radio Shack plant in Korea and they are
making 1/4" tapes of doubtful quality for Radio Shack there.

But sadly, most tape comes from Quantegy in Alabama.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Doctor Phibes]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
> Doctor Phibes > wrote:
> >Well very few places are selling new recorders(analog). It's dying but
> >so was the record. People still insist on buying vinyl and don't want
> >digital vinyl. They want the entire process to be vinyl. That means
> >someone will make it even if it's the chinese as someone suggested.
> >Unless I missed my guess doesn't most tape come from Japan? Tape makes
> >sense for me. My biggest worry isn't tuning the machine. It's finding
> >one that actually acts like it was meant for industrial purposes. even
> >if i only record say 2-3 songs a week.
>
> No professional analogue tape comes from Japan, now that Maxell has
> discontinued 1/4" UD this past spring.
>
> This comes on the heels of Zonal collapsing, so now there is no tape
> made in the UK either.
>
> Of course, there is still Quantegy making tape in Alabama, and there
> is maybe sort of the old Agfa/BASF plant in Germany (and nobody knows
> what is up with that or who owns it as far as I can tell... Emtec,
> the Korean folks, have definitely dropped out).
>
> Hanny Magnetics has the old Radio Shack plant in Korea and they are
> making 1/4" tapes of doubtful quality for Radio Shack there.
>
> But sadly, most tape comes from Quantegy in Alabama.
> --scott

>
I see Scott,
I had it all wrong save for the dying part.

oh well
William

[chetatkinsdiet]

OK, case in point...
Here's a nice machine for someone and it's going to run about the same
as a decent MOTU audio interface.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2574933274&category=15199
When you put it that way, it doesn't even sound like a hard
decision...."lemme see, motu 2408 sound card or Scully 2" 16 track..."
haha,
m

[Doctor Phibes]

(chetatkinsdiet) wrote in message >...
> OK, case in point...
> Here's a nice machine for someone and it's going to run about the same
> as a decent MOTU audio interface.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2574933274&category=15199
> When you put it that way, it doesn't even sound like a hard
> decision...."lemme see, motu 2408 sound card or Scully 2" 16 track..."
> haha,
> m

>
That's a pretty good case and point M. How often do these types of
deals come along? I mean I live in Massachusetts, shipping a 400 box
is out of the question and not a choice since most of these ads are
pick up only. There are drawbacks too. You have to determine the
condition and apply the necessary doctoring. The motu works right out
of the box and unless you're recording at 192 khz costs less in
storage. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Would it be possible to find a decent deal on a 16 track in Mass? By
decent I mean something in working order but because of tape cost and
upkeep now colects dust. Liken it to giving away an old piano. Are
these circumstances too far fetched? Where would I even begin my
quest save for checking ebay?

thanks,
William

[John Noll]

That's a pretty good case and point M. How often do these types of
> deals come along? I mean I live in Massachusetts, shipping a 400 box
> is out of the question and not a choice since most of these ads are
> pick up only. There are drawbacks too. You have to determine the
> condition and apply the necessary doctoring. The motu works right out
> of the box and unless you're recording at 192 khz costs less in
> storage. (correct me if I'm wrong)
>
> Would it be possible to find a decent deal on a 16 track in Mass? By
> decent I mean something in working order but because of tape cost and
> upkeep now colects dust. Liken it to giving away an old piano. Are
> these circumstances too far fetched? Where would I even begin my
> quest save for checking ebay?
>
> thanks,
> William


Drive up to Vermont and buy Joe Egan's nice MCI machine for $2700.
--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701

Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631

http://www.retromedia.net

[Rob Adelman]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> OK, case in point...
> Here's a nice machine for someone and it's going to run about the same
> as a decent MOTU audio interface.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2574933274&category=15199
> When you put it that way, it doesn't even sound like a hard
> decision...."lemme see, motu 2408 sound card or Scully 2" 16 track..."
> haha,

I know that beast well..

"Cashiers check, money order, or cash ONLY. Also, this machine is far
TOO HEAVY to even consider shipping, so it must be picked up. Please ask
any questions before bidding."

"Too Heavy" is right!! I moved that puppy myself a few times. Ouch..

[Bill Thompson]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:
<snip>
> This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> and even spice tape.
<snip>
This is, I believe, the biggest weakness of the whole project studio
movement, it that's what it is.

I'm not slagging project studios... the technology available today makes
it possible for a lot of people to get involved with music production,
and that's a good thing.

But, they are, for the most part, doing it in isolation, without the
benefit of the mentors that most of us dinosaurs had, and without a
realistic appreciation of the history that same said mentors beat into
our heads<G>! It isn't just the test equipment, or even the skills, it
is an appreciation for why you need those skills and that equipment.

It isn't really all that surprising though... it is an attitude that has
been growing for a long time... the individual does everything, and
doesn't need help from "outsiders"... at least not outsiders that
require more attention than an email or posting.

In the mid-eighties I started a small business providing maintenance
services to studios and broadcasters. This was a logical step, at the
time, from my gig as a broadcast engineer, and at first it worked
nicely. I had a small client list that kept me busy, and we were all happy.

Then it happened. Studios that were charging $15/hour couldn't
understand how I had the nerve to charge $65/hour. The first couple of
prospects were written off as somewhat clueless, but over time the
number of folks who thought they were getting the deal of the century
became a very small subset of the total marketplace. Some of these guys
had significant money invested in their studios, but they didn't
understand that the gear needed to be maintaied. I'd get the emergency
calls, and they'd pay the rate, but all the while I was working they'd
be complaining.

Then along came the ADAT, and the DAW, and all of the sudden it seemed
like maintenance really wasn't necessary. And hey, maybe in a proper
setup it really isn't. I don't know... I got out of that line of work.

I own, and use, analog tape decks. I like them for a lot of reasons...
one might be that they sound cool, I think they do, but an even bigger
reason is that I can maintain them. I could probably learn to fix an
ADAT if I were so inclined... but my JH16 is really pretty simple to
work on, so I stick to that. And I don't think I'm ever going to invest
in a logic analyzer in order to repair a PCI card<G>... or even a
symbolic debugger to fix a driver.

The whole landscape has changed pretty drastically!

I'm in agreement though that I think it is cool that people are buying
analog tape decks and trying to learn to use and maintain them. I just
with they understood the value of hooking up with a mentor...

Bill

[chetatkinsdiet]

you beat me to the punch about joe's machine. That's a GREAT one.
I'd think you, being in Boston, or Mass, are in a better spot than me
in Dallas trying to find a decent tape deck for cheap. You can drive
in to NYC if you had to for pickup. I'm sure if you post on here,
you'll find something soon enough.
BTW...agree on all counts on the MOTU vs. tape argument...tape will
cost you more to operate, but the results are hard to compare.
Digital is fine for some things, but I'd prefer tape. Out of ease of
use, etc, I'll continue to use digital, but....if I had Joe's MCI
machine....
later,
m

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> That's a pretty good case and point M. How often do these types of
> deals come along? I mean I live in Massachusetts, shipping a 400 box
> is out of the question

Joe Egan is in Vermont and he has a nice MCI for sale at a very
reasonable (but not scrap) price. Go rent a van and take a couple of
friends on a road trip.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[EggHd]

<< oe Egan is in Vermont and he has a nice MCI for sale at a very
reasonable (but not scrap) price. >>

Man that's sounds like rock bottom to me.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[Doctor Phibes]

Bill Thompson > wrote in message >...
> chetatkinsdiet wrote:
> <snip>
> > This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
> > and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
> > on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
> > equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
> > and even spice tape.
> <snip>
> This is, I believe, the biggest weakness of the whole project studio
> movement, it that's what it is.
>
> I'm not slagging project studios... the technology available today makes
> it possible for a lot of people to get involved with music production,
> and that's a good thing.
>
> But, they are, for the most part, doing it in isolation, without the
> benefit of the mentors that most of us dinosaurs had, and without a
> realistic appreciation of the history that same said mentors beat into
> our heads<G>! It isn't just the test equipment, or even the skills, it
> is an appreciation for why you need those skills and that equipment.
>
> It isn't really all that surprising though... it is an attitude that has
> been growing for a long time... the individual does everything, and
> doesn't need help from "outsiders"... at least not outsiders that
> require more attention than an email or posting.
>
> In the mid-eighties I started a small business providing maintenance
> services to studios and broadcasters. This was a logical step, at the
> time, from my gig as a broadcast engineer, and at first it worked
> nicely. I had a small client list that kept me busy, and we were all happy.
>
> Then it happened. Studios that were charging $15/hour couldn't
> understand how I had the nerve to charge $65/hour. The first couple of
> prospects were written off as somewhat clueless, but over time the
> number of folks who thought they were getting the deal of the century
> became a very small subset of the total marketplace. Some of these guys
> had significant money invested in their studios, but they didn't
> understand that the gear needed to be maintaied. I'd get the emergency
> calls, and they'd pay the rate, but all the while I was working they'd
> be complaining.
>
> Then along came the ADAT, and the DAW, and all of the sudden it seemed
> like maintenance really wasn't necessary. And hey, maybe in a proper
> setup it really isn't. I don't know... I got out of that line of work.
>
> I own, and use, analog tape decks. I like them for a lot of reasons...
> one might be that they sound cool, I think they do, but an even bigger
> reason is that I can maintain them. I could probably learn to fix an
> ADAT if I were so inclined... but my JH16 is really pretty simple to
> work on, so I stick to that. And I don't think I'm ever going to invest
> in a logic analyzer in order to repair a PCI card<G>... or even a
> symbolic debugger to fix a driver.
>
> The whole landscape has changed pretty drastically!
>
> I'm in agreement though that I think it is cool that people are buying
> analog tape decks and trying to learn to use and maintain them. I just
> with they understood the value of hooking up with a mentor...
>
> Bill
>
I agree Bill. Not that I grew up in the environment you suggest is
necessary to appreciate the time and effort it takes to maintain
unstable equipment. Guitar has taught me a lot about how things can
drastically change. Whether it be an acoustic guitar played at
different temps or even stomp boxes and how temps would haunt them.

I hate editing digitally. All that cut copy and paste is powerful but
tedious. I hate how digital reacts to overloads too. Am I asking for
trouble wanting a dash recorder? Yes, indeed. I will have to learn
how to tune something other than my guitar. At the same time I'll have
to callibrate my patience if I've become too used to digital
stability.

Do I want to do it all alone? unfortunately yes, that Paul Mccartney
record an album in your living room mentality is in me. It's good to
have other opinions though. My idea now is to track and mix in another
studio.

I saw the ad for the forementioned sony/mci. I'm not sure how to read
into it. I understand the shipping aspects and I'll continue to
compare it to a piano. What I don't have is the knowledge to
understand the servicable and eventually replaced parts.

I suppose the other reason to get into this mad mad world is to keep
the flame going. The music I like was recorded on 4,8, 16, 24 etc
track recorders and released on vinyl and I love the sound. I haven't
checked prices on tape in a while but one thing is for sure it will
force you to make your recordings count unless you're rich.

William

[Doctor Phibes]

(chetatkinsdiet) wrote in message >...
> you beat me to the punch about joe's machine. That's a GREAT one.
> I'd think you, being in Boston, or Mass, are in a better spot than me
> in Dallas trying to find a decent tape deck for cheap. You can drive
> in to NYC if you had to for pickup. I'm sure if you post on here,
> you'll find something soon enough.
> BTW...agree on all counts on the MOTU vs. tape argument...tape will
> cost you more to operate, but the results are hard to compare.
> Digital is fine for some things, but I'd prefer tape. Out of ease of
> use, etc, I'll continue to use digital, but....if I had Joe's MCI
> machine....
> later,
> m

>
I agree there are machines being sold, I'm just worried about not
being familiar with them. If one is selling for $2700 could it mean it
needs work? It seems Studers hold the most value. I suppose that's
justified to a degree. Yes you will get no arguement from me about
analog properly done sounds better to my ears. The thing is it is
work.

William

[chetatkinsdiet]

....and while you're in Vermont picking up the Scully, swing on up to
Canada to get your mastering deck. Here it is....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2573770278&category=15199

Seriously guys....would that be a nice little set up. The Scully with
this 2 track? Why don't I have an extra $4-5K laying around for these
deals....that would cover the van rental and expenses for a 3-4 day
road trip and everything.
later,
m

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I agree there are machines being sold, I'm just worried about not
> being familiar with them. If one is selling for $2700 could it mean it
> needs work?

You need to have a certain degree of trust in the seller. In the case
of the MCI that Joe Egan's selling, I'd have a reasonable degree of
confidence that his description is accurate. After all, he's even had
his picture in Mix or something. <g>

Small and medium sized working studios often don't have a full time
maintenance person, but have someone local who comes around to service
their machines beyond routine alignment. You can ask the seller who
maintains his recorders, and ask the tech about the history of the
machine you're thinking of buying. Or you can find out who maintains
analog recorders in the area where the machine you're drooling over is
located, and pay him $100 or so to go to the studio that's selling the
recorder and look it over.

About the only real deal breaker (other than that it's been in a
flooded basement for years and it's covered with rust, corrosion, and
green crud) is that the heads aren't in usable condition. 15 or so
years ago, I bought an Ampex MM1100 from a local studio. I knew the
studio, I knew the machine (I'd recorded on it), and I knew the guy
who did maintenance on it. Still, before making the deal, I gave the
studio a check for $1000 as a deposit, they gave me the heads (they
come off with just one screw), and I sent them to JRF Magnetic
Sciences for an autopsy report.

They told me that there was plenty of life left in the heads, but that
they could use refurbishment, which, at the time, I think cost about
$450. That was good enough for me. I had them go ahead with the
refurbishment (knowing that the recorder was costing me $450 more than
I was paying the owner for it), and I got a machine that I used for
ten more years with only a couple of minor repairs.

These things just don't break or give you the upgrade temptation that
a computer does.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Doctor Phibes]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1069509357k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > I agree there are machines being sold, I'm just worried about not
> > being familiar with them. If one is selling for $2700 could it mean it
> > needs work?
>
> You need to have a certain degree of trust in the seller. In the case
> of the MCI that Joe Egan's selling, I'd have a reasonable degree of
> confidence that his description is accurate. After all, he's even had
> his picture in Mix or something. <g>
>
> Small and medium sized working studios often don't have a full time
> maintenance person, but have someone local who comes around to service
> their machines beyond routine alignment. You can ask the seller who
> maintains his recorders, and ask the tech about the history of the
> machine you're thinking of buying. Or you can find out who maintains
> analog recorders in the area where the machine you're drooling over is
> located, and pay him $100 or so to go to the studio that's selling the
> recorder and look it over.
>
> About the only real deal breaker (other than that it's been in a
> flooded basement for years and it's covered with rust, corrosion, and
> green crud) is that the heads aren't in usable condition. 15 or so
> years ago, I bought an Ampex MM1100 from a local studio. I knew the
> studio, I knew the machine (I'd recorded on it), and I knew the guy
> who did maintenance on it. Still, before making the deal, I gave the
> studio a check for $1000 as a deposit, they gave me the heads (they
> come off with just one screw), and I sent them to JRF Magnetic
> Sciences for an autopsy report.
>
> They told me that there was plenty of life left in the heads, but that
> they could use refurbishment, which, at the time, I think cost about
> $450. That was good enough for me. I had them go ahead with the
> refurbishment (knowing that the recorder was costing me $450 more than
> I was paying the owner for it), and I got a machine that I used for
> ten more years with only a couple of minor repairs.
>
> These things just don't break or give you the upgrade temptation that
> a computer does.

>
True Mike,
I'm also not sure if I'm ready for 16/24track analog. Tape is very expensive.
William

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I'm also not sure if I'm ready for 16/24track analog. Tape is very expensive.

Actually tape prices haven't risen much if at all in the past 10
years, but it's true - we've become accustomed to media cost being
either negligable or hidden in the price of our computers. Buying used
but usable tape from http://www.tapetape.com can cut your cost
significantly.

One "hidden" benefit to using expensive media and not having a large
project budget is that you become much more selective about what you
keep and what you just re-record. And having only 16 or 24 tracks to
mix can save you a lot of time over having 60 or 80 tracks.

You need to know what the project is going to sound like while you're
working so that you can make every track count. It's good discipline
no matter what media you're using.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )

[Doctor Phibes]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1069618303k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > I'm also not sure if I'm ready for 16/24track analog. Tape is very expensive.
>
> Actually tape prices haven't risen much if at all in the past 10
> years, but it's true - we've become accustomed to media cost being
> either negligable or hidden in the price of our computers. Buying used
> but usable tape from http://www.tapetape.com can cut your cost
> significantly.
>
> One "hidden" benefit to using expensive media and not having a large
> project budget is that you become much more selective about what you
> keep and what you just re-record. And having only 16 or 24 tracks to
> mix can save you a lot of time over having 60 or 80 tracks.
>
> You need to know what the project is going to sound like while you're
> working so that you can make every track count. It's good discipline
> no matter what media you're using.
>
I've certainly considered that aspect of the process Mike. Concerning
tape costs I meant that I've become used to a few DAT back up tapes or
the alike. 16 tracks would be plenty for me. I'm one of those people
who think drums are background instruments not featured performance.
The other factor about these machines is I currently have no means to
mix 16-24 tracks. I suppose I could buy say a mackie or something to
monitor and go to another studio to mix.

William

[[email protected]]

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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:36:50 GMT
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1011718


On 2003-11-23 said:
>One "hidden" benefit to using expensive media and not having a large
>project budget is that you become much more selective about what you
>keep and what you just re-record. And having only 16 or 24 tracks to
>mix can save you a lot of time over having 60 or 80 tracks.
>You need to know what the project is going to sound like while
>you're working so that you can make every track count. It's good
>discipline no matter what media you're using.
And because you had to have an idea what you wanted to achieve
sonically you also expeted folks performing to deliver a quality
performance when the tape was rolling. WOw what a concept!!!

THese days we just throw a bunch of tracks down and figure between PT
and that Autotune dreck we can deliver something that maybe gets
within a country mile of a quality performance. NOt quite.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--