questions r.e. cleaning records

[Albert McDonnell]

Hello all,

I have a client who has some old records they want transferred to CD.
They are from the 50's, and are not commercial discs, but the kind
you'd get if you went to a studio and had them custom pressed of your
own music. Some are 78s, some are 33s, and some are small, like 45
size (haven't checked them yet). The labels suggest they were made in
NYC. Some of the old sleeves say "Glass Base - Handle With Care". One
of the small discs says on it "Metal Base - home recording disc".
Maybe these were made with some home equipment.

I have a turntable that does 78 RPM, and I got stylus from the Needle
Doctor intended for 78s. The 78 RPM discs and the 33 RPM discs look
the same - which stylus should I use? My understanding is that using
the wrong stylus can damage the disc.

Also I have on order the Nitty Gritty record cleaning machine. Should
I use the alchohol based cleaning solution or not on these records?

Albert

[Scott Dorsey]

Albert McDonnell > wrote:
>
>I have a client who has some old records they want transferred to CD.
>They are from the 50's, and are not commercial discs, but the kind
>you'd get if you went to a studio and had them custom pressed of your
>own music. Some are 78s, some are 33s, and some are small, like 45
>size (haven't checked them yet). The labels suggest they were made in
>NYC. Some of the old sleeves say "Glass Base - Handle With Care". One
>of the small discs says on it "Metal Base - home recording disc".
>Maybe these were made with some home equipment.

These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.

>I have a turntable that does 78 RPM, and I got stylus from the Needle
>Doctor intended for 78s. The 78 RPM discs and the 33 RPM discs look
>the same - which stylus should I use? My understanding is that using
>the wrong stylus can damage the disc.

You NEVER, NEVER use a microgroove stylus. It will destroy it instantly.
Most "78" styli are 2.5 to 2.7 mil, which is normally a little bit too big
for the transcription discs, but won't hurt them. What you want is a selection
of styli between 2.0 and 2.7 mil so you can pick the one that gives you the
lowest distortion on any given record.

The 33 rpm ones will be made with the same cutter. It will take some tinkering
to get the distortion down and the VTA may well not be 15'.

>Also I have on order the Nitty Gritty record cleaning machine. Should
>I use the alchohol based cleaning solution or not on these records?

No alcohol, not at all. Put a drop on the lead out and see... it will turn
white and dissolve noticeably. I do these all the time and normally use
an ultrasonic tank on them. Barring that, hand cleaning with a laboratory
cleaner or even Ivory Soap is a start. Don't use a carbon brush; it will
damage the surface. The surface is very soft, and soluble in alcohol because
it's either a nitrocellulose lacquer or a cellulose acetate lacquer. The
nitrocellulose ones will smell like camphor, and anything sold for home use
will be acetate.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

> Don't use a carbon brush; it will damage the surface.

Everything else makes perfect sense; that one is a non-sequitur.

A carbon(-fiber?) brush might not be effective, but how can it damage anything?

[Albert McDonnell]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...

Hey Scott, thanks for the comeback. A couple of questions further:
>
> These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
> 1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
> occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.
>
> The 33 rpm ones will be made with the same cutter. It will take some tinkering
> to get the distortion down and the VTA may well not be 15'.

What is VTA? and why should it be 15'? What type of tinkering would I
do?
>
> >Also I have on order the Nitty Gritty record cleaning machine. Should
> >I use the alchohol based cleaning solution or not on these records?
>
> No alcohol, not at all. Put a drop on the lead out and see... it will turn
> white and dissolve noticeably. I do these all the time and normally use
> an ultrasonic tank on them. Barring that, hand cleaning with a laboratory
> cleaner or even Ivory Soap is a start. Don't use a carbon brush; it will
> damage the surface. The surface is very soft, and soluble in alcohol because
> it's either a nitrocellulose lacquer or a cellulose acetate lacquer. The
> nitrocellulose ones will smell like camphor, and anything sold for home use
> will be acetate.
> --scott

I also ordered some record cleaning solution from a different outfit
that is not alchohol based. My idea was to use the Nitty Gritty
machine with this other stuff. Good idea or no? And what is an
ultrasonic tank?

regards, Albert

[Peter Larsen]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> > Don't use a carbon brush; it will damage the surface.

> Everything else makes perfect sense; that one is a non-sequitur.

> A carbon(-fiber?) brush might not be effective, but how can it damage anything?

Sharp fiber ends! - these are elongated carbon crystals, not something
gentle and amorph. There is an even tougher form of carbon, but most
people can only afford it in small amouts.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

[Craig]

In article >,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

> These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
> 1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
> occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.

Cardboard?? You mean like my Last Train to Clarksville 45 I cut out of
the back of a Lucky Charms box?!?

Sorry, that just brought back a long lost memory--
Or did I dream that?
Craig

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>> Don't use a carbon brush; it will damage the surface.
>
>Everything else makes perfect sense; that one is a non-sequitur.
>A carbon(-fiber?) brush might not be effective, but how can it damage anything?

The fibres are a lot harder than the record surface. If you're aggressive
with it, it will remove more than just dust.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Albert McDonnell > wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
>
>Hey Scott, thanks for the comeback. A couple of questions further:
>>
>> These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
>> 1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
>> occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.
>>
>> The 33 rpm ones will be made with the same cutter. It will take some tinkering
>> to get the distortion down and the VTA may well not be 15'.
>
>What is VTA? and why should it be 15'? What type of tinkering would I
>do?

VTA is the vertical tracking angle, the angle of the stylus with respect
to the record plane. On modern records, it will be 15', because that is
what the RIAA standard specifies. On these, you will have to raise and
lower the arm pivot until you get the lowest tracking distortion. You will
have to do it on each record, and by ear.

>> >Also I have on order the Nitty Gritty record cleaning machine. Should
>> >I use the alchohol based cleaning solution or not on these records?
>>
>> No alcohol, not at all. Put a drop on the lead out and see... it will turn
>> white and dissolve noticeably. I do these all the time and normally use
>> an ultrasonic tank on them. Barring that, hand cleaning with a laboratory
>> cleaner or even Ivory Soap is a start. Don't use a carbon brush; it will
>> damage the surface. The surface is very soft, and soluble in alcohol because
>> it's either a nitrocellulose lacquer or a cellulose acetate lacquer. The
>> nitrocellulose ones will smell like camphor, and anything sold for home use
>> will be acetate.
>
>I also ordered some record cleaning solution from a different outfit
>that is not alchohol based. My idea was to use the Nitty Gritty
>machine with this other stuff. Good idea or no? And what is an
>ultrasonic tank?

The ultrasonic tank is a big version of the thing jewelers used to clean
gems, or some people use to clean dentures. It's a big metal tank with a
high frequency oscillator and a transducer. You fill it with soapy water
and it shakes all the junk off the surface.

DO NOT use a vacuum machine on lacquers, because it will tend to suck the
surface right off. Do it by hand with a soap solution and soft towels.
It doesn't have to be quite as clean as an LP because the stylus is so
large; treat it like a very soft 78.

The only vacuum machine I would trust on lacquers is the Kieth Monks machine,
which has a special head that is specifically designed for them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> VTA is the vertical tracking angle, the angle of the stylus with respect
> to the record plane. On modern records, it will be 15'

Is that fifteen minutes, or fifteen degrees? Computers differ on
symbols. I'm not really sure myself, I just figured that wherever the
screws put the cartridge was about right, and I've never had a tonearm
fancy enough to adjust the stylus vertical angle.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Wayne]

>> VTA is the vertical tracking angle, the angle of the stylus with respect
>> to the record plane. On modern records, it will be 15'
>
>Is that fifteen minutes, or fifteen degrees? Computers differ on
>symbols. I'm not really sure myself, I just figured that wherever the
>screws put the cartridge was about right, and I've never had a tonearm
>fancy enough to adjust the stylus vertical angle.
>
>
>--
>I'm really Mike Rivers - )
>
>
>
I believe it's fiteen degrees and I'm like you about the cartridge alignment.
Pickering was the first one I remember making the V15 elliptical cartridge and
that was a long, long, long time ago. The only thing I ever did was set the
tracking pressure with a little scale deal. Seems like it was 2-3 grams or
something like that.



--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-

[P Stamler]

It's fifteen degrees. The angle is least critical with conical styli, becoming
more so with elliptical and quite so with "line-contact" styli.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <znr1068908921k@trad>, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>In article > writes:
>
>> VTA is the vertical tracking angle, the angle of the stylus with respect
>> to the record plane. On modern records, it will be 15'
>
>Is that fifteen minutes, or fifteen degrees? Computers differ on
>symbols. I'm not really sure myself, I just figured that wherever the
>screws put the cartridge was about right, and I've never had a tonearm
>fancy enough to adjust the stylus vertical angle.

Fifteen degrees. Sorry, I only have USASCII on the Televideo here, so
I tend to use the ' in place of the degree mark. And it IS fifteen degrees
and you should buy my old SME arm.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ben Bradley]

In rec.audio.pro, Craig > wrote:

>In article >,
> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
>> 1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
>> occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.
>
>Cardboard?? You mean like my Last Train to Clarksville 45 I cut out of
>the back of a Lucky Charms box?!?

Was THAT it? Were there any others? I do indeed remember a Monkees
song pressed into the back of a cereal box.

>Sorry, that just brought back a long lost memory--
>Or did I dream that?

No, unless we both had the same dream. You can call it 'cardboard
based' I'm sure the cereal box was not quite what Scott was talking
about. I recall it wearing out fast and not sounding good after just a
couple of plays - even faster than those thin plastic "soundsheet"
records that came in Keyboard Magazine. Of course, the Monkees cereal
box record was being played with a ceramic cartridge that must have
(mis)tracked at over 5 grams, so it understandably wore out fast.

>Craig

[Scott Dorsey]

Ben Bradley > wrote:
>
> No, unless we both had the same dream. You can call it 'cardboard
>based' I'm sure the cereal box was not quite what Scott was talking
>about. I recall it wearing out fast and not sounding good after just a
>couple of plays - even faster than those thin plastic "soundsheet"
>records that came in Keyboard Magazine. Of course, the Monkees cereal
>box record was being played with a ceramic cartridge that must have
>(mis)tracked at over 5 grams, so it understandably wore out fast.

What I was talking about were instantaneous recordings, not pressings.
But the material they are made on IS remarkably like those cardboard box
records, and they last about as long.

I think that Eva-Tone still has the machines to do those cardboard box things
if you ever decide you want to issue one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
> 1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
> occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.


Is this because of the war? All the aluminum was going into airplanes
during those years?

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> Fifteen degrees. Sorry, I only have USASCII on the Televideo here, so
> I tend to use the ' in place of the degree mark. And it IS fifteen degrees
> and you should buy my old SME arm.
> --scott

Scott,
There's a funny flash animation cartoon I'd like you to watch here:
http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail33.html
but I know you can't see it because you're livin' in the past, man. Do
you know what kind of fast computer you can get for free nowadays? I
can't seem to get rid of them fast enough. I've got Pentii iii coming
out of the woodwork.

I don't even know what a Televideo is. Is that like some early form of
abacus or what?

ulysses

[Scott Dorsey]

Justin Ulysses Morse > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey > wrote:
>
>> These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
>> 1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
>> occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.
>
>Is this because of the war? All the aluminum was going into airplanes
>during those years?

Yup.

Even worse, shellac was in short supply, so lots of people were taking
those old boring shellac records down to the recycling center to be ground
down to make varnishes for the war effort.

As a result, there are a lot of pre-war records that just don't exist any
more.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Edi Zubovic]

On 18 Nov 2003 10:45:32 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Justin Ulysses Morse > wrote:
>>Scott Dorsey > wrote:
>>
>>> These are called "lacquers." Anything on a glass base was made between
>>> 1940 and 1945. Most others will be on an aluminum base aside from the
>>> occasional home recording done on a cardboard base or steel base.
>>
>>Is this because of the war? All the aluminum was going into airplanes
>>during those years?
>
>Yup.
>
>Even worse, shellac was in short supply, so lots of people were taking
>those old boring shellac records down to the recycling center to be ground
>down to make varnishes for the war effort.
>
>As a result, there are a lot of pre-war records that just don't exist any
>more.
>--scott

-- In Croatia, many of prewar and wartime recordings are oficially
lost too. In the II WW, there was a record company called "Elektroton"
("Electrotone" ) in Zagreb*, which despite the war has been recording
a lot, mainly local artists. After the war ended, the new authorities
have simply melted down all records found in the stocks and stores and
recycled them. The only hope are private sources and collections,
which may have some survived recordings. I know for a man having a
collection of 9000+ records and I'm planning in the future to make a
visit to him to see whether I could make some transfers in site.

* The first record company in this area has been "Edison Bell
Penkala", Mr. Penkala has been a successful inventor, his best known
invention is the automatic drawing pen. So the label had a funny face
in profile, having a huge ear with a pen attached. The company has
been active until the WWII; "Elektroton" has been a successor thereof
in the WWII and again the successors of them was the state owned
company "Jugoton". Now it is the "Croatia Records" Company, having a
marvellous archive.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> There's a funny flash animation cartoon I'd like you to watch here:
> http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail33.html
> but I know you can't see it because you're livin' in the past, man. Do
> you know what kind of fast computer you can get for free nowadays? I
> can't seem to get rid of them fast enough.


Please send me a 1GHz+ pentium. Don't forget the case, power supply,
memory, graphics board, and disk drive. Thanks.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <znr1069169857k@trad>, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>In article > writes:
>
>> There's a funny flash animation cartoon I'd like you to watch here:
>> http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail33.html
>> but I know you can't see it because you're livin' in the past, man. Do
>> you know what kind of fast computer you can get for free nowadays? I
>> can't seem to get rid of them fast enough.
>
>Please send me a 1GHz+ pentium. Don't forget the case, power supply,
>memory, graphics board, and disk drive. Thanks.

Don't joke about that, Mike, or I actually will send you one. People keep
giving me all this stuff, and I have no need for it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Don't joke about that, Mike, or I actually will send you one. People keep
> giving me all this stuff, and I have no need for it.

No joke. I really need to upgrade my studio computer from a 266 MHz
and something with a real USB and Firewire port. But with all the
doubt that I have about being able to pick the right (or at least not
wrong) components, Tom's Hardware web site aside - that's just a bunch
of facts, not real advice - I just never seem to do it. Many times
I've been tempted to go up to the used computer store and just say
"gimme a Dell because I have another one that seems to work OK."




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Don't joke about that, Mike, or I actually will send you one. People keep
> > giving me all this stuff, and I have no need for it.
>
> No joke. I really need to upgrade my studio computer from a 266 MHz
> and something with a real USB and Firewire port. But with all the
> doubt that I have about being able to pick the right (or at least not
> wrong) components, Tom's Hardware web site aside - that's just a bunch
> of facts, not real advice - I just never seem to do it. Many times
> I've been tempted to go up to the used computer store and just say
> "gimme a Dell because I have another one that seems to work OK."

Have you looked at the Refurb section of Dell's website? They have
some pretty unbelievable deals on "new" computers with warranty,
software, etc. Taking a quick glance right now, the best deal I see is
a 2.4GHz Celeron with 256MB of 333MHz DDR RAM, a 40G 7200 RPM hard
drive, onboard audio/video/nic, a CDROM drive and WXP Home & some other
software all for $274. No floppy, CD-R or DVD, but that's insanely
cheap. There are hundreds of others up there too, but that was the
cheapest one at the moment I checked. That's probably a better deal
than me sending you half a computer and you putting it together.

http://outlet.us.dell.com/Dispatcher?target=InventoryPage&action=sort&so
rtColumn=price&lob=DIM


ulysses

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Have you looked at the Refurb section of Dell's website? They have
> some pretty unbelievable deals on "new" computers with warranty,
> software, etc. Taking a quick glance right now, the best deal I see is
> a 2.4GHz Celeron with 256MB of 333MHz DDR RAM, a 40G 7200 RPM hard
> drive, onboard audio/video/nic, a CDROM drive and WXP Home & some other
> software all for $274. No floppy, CD-R or DVD, but that's insanely
> cheap.

They're finally making computers with no floppy drives? Well, I guess
something like that might be a good building block, but I suspect that
what I really want is a custom-build. I'd like to have one of those
Plextor CD-R drives that has the software for error disk analysis, it
would probably be a good idea to have a DVD R+/-W drive, a floppy, a
removable drive bay, a Firewire port . . . . Probalby the best thing
about the $274 deal is that you get a box that works, and a licensable
(I assume) copy of Windows. Now that Microsoft is making it hard to
steal a copy of the OS from work and run it on every computer you use
(the NERVE of them!) not having to buy a copy of Windows is worth
close to $200 right there.

The Dell I have for the "office" computer is just as I got it from the
used shop, with the addition of a CD-RW drive, which the original
didn't have. I wonder how well suited a Dell case is for
customization? When you buy pieces, at least you get to see how many
drive bays it has, and where they're located.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> They're finally making computers with no floppy drives? Well, I guess
> something like that might be a good building block, but I suspect that
> what I really want is a custom-build. I'd like to have one of those
> Plextor CD-R drives that has the software for error disk analysis, it
> would probably be a good idea to have a DVD R+/-W drive, a floppy, a
> removable drive bay, a Firewire port . . . . Probalby the best thing
> about the $274 deal is that you get a box that works, and a licensable
> (I assume) copy of Windows. Now that Microsoft is making it hard to
> steal a copy of the OS from work and run it on every computer you use
> (the NERVE of them!) not having to buy a copy of Windows is worth
> close to $200 right there.

You can still pirate W2K as much as you want...


It sounds like you want your cake and edith too. You want a box that's
already assembled and works, but you want to put whatever the hell you
want in there, and you want it dirt cheap. Pick one of those to live
without, you know? Assembling computer hardware into a box is easy;
installing an OS is even easier. The only part that's over my head is
optimizing the OS for audio use, and that's something you have to do
whether you buy a prefab box or not.


> The Dell I have for the "office" computer is just as I got it from the
> used shop, with the addition of a CD-RW drive, which the original
> didn't have. I wonder how well suited a Dell case is for
> customization? When you buy pieces, at least you get to see how many
> drive bays it has, and where they're located.

In my experience, Dell is close to being "standard." Much more so than
Gateway and the other name-brands, anyway. Dell cases are generally
usable with replacement MoBos but it's usually a minor pain. I did it
very recently, installing a "generic" 300MHz PII board into the case
from a dead 400MHz Dell PII. I had to leave the panel off the rear
connector plate, and the front panel connections (power, reset, LEDs)
had totally different connectors so I had to kludge that. Other than
that, it all went together. The main thing was I had to replace the
power supply due to Dell using a funny non-standard supply that had an
extra oddball connector on it. I was only salvaging a machine to give
to my mom's friend, so it didn't matter too much, but I'd prefer a more
cohesive package for myself. But when it comes to PCs I take what I
can get for free. I only step away from the Mac for one application
anyway (ExpressPCB). If I actually needed a fast PC, I wouldn't mind
spending a few bucks on a good chassis that will accommodate a long
series of upgrades into the future.

ulysses

ulysses

[Mike Rivers]

How in the world did we get this far off the topic of cleaning
records?


In article > writes:

> It sounds like you want your cake and edith too. You want a box that's
> already assembled and works, but you want to put whatever the hell you
> want in there, and you want it dirt cheap.

Did I say anything about dirt cheap? But yes, you're almost right.
That's why I want a LOCAL computer shop where there's someone who
knows more than I do about the parts that work together, who will work
with me to give me the capability that I want, and make sure that it
all works before it leaves the shop. Places like that used to be
plentiful enough, but not any more. There are mail-order places who
will make me a computer but then I have to ship it back to them if it
doesn't work.

> In my experience, Dell is close to being "standard." Much more so than
> Gateway and the other name-brands, anyway. Dell cases are generally
> usable with replacement MoBos but it's usually a minor pain.

I looked at the Dell Refurbished web page and there was some
intersting stuff there, but it will take more digging before I figured
out what "Mini-Tower case" actually means.

> I did it
> very recently, installing a "generic" 300MHz PII board into the case
> from a dead 400MHz Dell PII. I had to leave the panel off the rear
> connector plate, and the front panel connections (power, reset, LEDs)
> had totally different connectors so I had to kludge that. Other than
> that, it all went together. The main thing was I had to replace the
> power supply due to Dell using a funny non-standard supply that had an
> extra oddball connector on it.

Hmmmm . . . that doesn't sound very "standard" to me.

> I was only salvaging a machine to give
> to my mom's friend, so it didn't matter too much, but I'd prefer a more
> cohesive package for myself.

Sounds like you would have been better off salvaging a machine that
was built from parts. I can go to Micro Center or CompU$A and pick out
what's probably a suitable case, but then there's this vast array of
motherboards there, none of which are what people recommend. And they
don't have any graphics boards that aren't hyped for gaming and cost
less than $150. And so on. . . I'll freely admit to not knowing all
the angles. Since this sort of knowledge will be obsolete by the next
time I need it, I'd rather let someone who assembles computers every
day make the decisions, or at least make the suggestions
intelligently.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1069352362k@trad
> How in the world did we get this far off the topic of cleaning
> records?

> In article >
> writes:
>
>> It sounds like you want your cake and edith too. You want a box
>> that's already assembled and works, but you want to put whatever the
>> hell you want in there, and you want it dirt cheap.

> Did I say anything about dirt cheap? But yes, you're almost right.
> That's why I want a LOCAL computer shop where there's someone who
> knows more than I do about the parts that work together, who will work
> with me to give me the capability that I want, and make sure that it
> all works before it leaves the shop. Places like that used to be
> plentiful enough, but not any more. There are mail-order places who
> will make me a computer but then I have to ship it back to them if it
> doesn't work.

Hey, being the local guy is a business... I feel the same way about computer
parts. I could save a few bucks by surfing the web, but if things get really
crazy I can take the box over to my distributor's place and he'll give me a
hand. My policy is to never buy system boards from someone whose neck I
can't *touch*.

>> In my experience, Dell is close to being "standard." Much more so
>> than Gateway and the other name-brands, anyway. Dell cases are
>> generally usable with replacement MoBos but it's usually a minor
>> pain.
>
> I looked at the Dell Refurbished web page and there was some
> interesting stuff there, but it will take more digging before I figured
> out what "Mini-Tower case" actually means.
>
>> I did it
>> very recently, installing a "generic" 300MHz PII board into the case
>> from a dead 400MHz Dell PII. I had to leave the panel off the rear
>> connector plate, and the front panel connections (power, reset, LEDs)
>> had totally different connectors so I had to kludge that. Other than
>> that, it all went together. The main thing was I had to replace the
>> power supply due to Dell using a funny non-standard supply that had
>> an extra oddball connector on it.

> Hmmmm . . . that doesn't sound very "standard" to me.

Agreed.

Dell has AFAIK been holding closer to "standard" in more recent times.

However they still pull some dumb tricks, like ship a client a bunch of
machines with analog LCDs and digital-only graphics boards. Oh, yes they
shipped the adaptors, but the adaptors were plugs not cables, and they made
the computers appreciably deeper (so deep they wouldn't fit in kilo$buck
high end semi-custom cabinets), not to mention being connector-breakers.
Bottom line I ran out and got some adaptor cables and made the client happy.

The ITX back connector plate is supposed to be standard, and the new one
that comes with the motherboard is supposed to be a press-in replacement.

The front panel connectors aren't standard as a rule. I have built up a big
inventory of pre-wired slip-on connectors over the years. A bit of strategic
crimping splices with IDC connectors and that is that.

> Sounds like you would have been better off salvaging a machine that
> was built from parts.

Agreed.

>I can go to Micro Center or CompU$A and pick out
> what's probably a suitable case, but then there's this vast array of
> motherboards there, none of which are what people recommend.

You noticed!

>And they don't have any graphics boards that aren't hyped for gaming and
cost
> less than $150. And so on. . . I'll freely admit to not knowing all
> the angles. Since this sort of knowledge will be obsolete by the next
> time I need it, I'd rather let someone who assembles computers every
> day make the decisions, or at least make the suggestions
> intelligently.

Works for me.

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> Did I say anything about dirt cheap? But yes, you're almost right.
> That's why I want a LOCAL computer shop where there's someone who
> knows more than I do about the parts that work together, who will work
> with me to give me the capability that I want, and make sure that it
> all works before it leaves the shop. Places like that used to be
> plentiful enough, but not any more. There are mail-order places who
> will make me a computer but then I have to ship it back to them if it
> doesn't work.

You can buy pre-tested motherboard combos from places like mWave.com
where they put together a motherboard, RAM, processor, and chip cooler
in a known-good configuration, and they test it for you. Even with
their $9 testing fee, it's still cheaper than most retail shops. Buy
your case and power supply locally, since you don't have to worry about
compatibility issues with a standard case or PSU, and because sales tax
will be cheaper than shipping on them.

From there, it's a simple matter to install drives and stuff on a
working CPU. The real work comes after you install the OS.

> I looked at the Dell Refurbished web page and there was some
> intersting stuff there, but it will take more digging before I figured
> out what "Mini-Tower case" actually means.

As you said, it's probably not such a great deal for somebody with
specific non-standard requirements such as for building an audio box.

> Sounds like you would have been better off salvaging a machine that
> was built from parts. I can go to Micro Center or CompU$A and pick out
> what's probably a suitable case, but then there's this vast array of
> motherboards there, none of which are what people recommend. And they
> don't have any graphics boards that aren't hyped for gaming and cost
> less than $150. And so on. . . I'll freely admit to not knowing all
> the angles. Since this sort of knowledge will be obsolete by the next
> time I need it, I'd rather let someone who assembles computers every
> day make the decisions, or at least make the suggestions
> intelligently.

This is why it makes more sense to get advice from trusted
acquaintances, and then order the motherboard and video card and stuff
online. Microcenter has some great deals on mice and CDRs and books,
but for motherboards and RAM the online outlets are consistently way
cheaper, and you can get exactly what you want. Or what you've been
told you want, as the case may be. Their pretested bundles take a lot
of the worry out of the process too.

Compusa really has no redeeming value at all, other than being a place
where you can touch the latest gadget and give it a working over to see
how durable it is, without feeling guilty if you break it.

My advice would be to buy whatever motherboard and video card Arny
recommends, order them from mWave, and put them in a box you buy
locally.

ulysses

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> but for motherboards and RAM the online outlets are consistently way
> cheaper, and you can get exactly what you want. Or what you've been
> told you want, as the case may be. Their pretested bundles take a lot
> of the worry out of the process too.

The pre-tested CPU/Motherboard/Memory sounds like it's well worth the
service charge. The problem is knowing exactly what I want (and why),
and then being able to get it. As I've said before, usually by the
time word gets out about a good combination, it's off the shelves and
there's something new there. Fortunately I'm using a Lynx L22 card
(and don't anticipate changing that for a while yet) and that seems to
be compatable with just about everything. So I would probably be safe
just getting an Intel chipset board and whatever speed P4 I thought
would hold me for a couple of years, and just go for it.

Or not.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> The pre-tested CPU/Motherboard/Memory sounds like it's well worth the
> service charge. The problem is knowing exactly what I want (and why),
> and then being able to get it. As I've said before, usually by the
> time word gets out about a good combination, it's off the shelves and
> there's something new there. Fortunately I'm using a Lynx L22 card
> (and don't anticipate changing that for a while yet) and that seems to
> be compatable with just about everything. So I would probably be safe
> just getting an Intel chipset board and whatever speed P4 I thought
> would hold me for a couple of years, and just go for it.
>
> Or not.


Just do it. It doesn't cost that much, won't be too tough or take too
long, and I promise you won't learn a whole lot of stuff you didn't
need to know. And it's not like you can mess up so bad that you end up
with an unusable computer. You'll make it work, you'll have a fast new
computer and you'll wonder how you ever sat there waiting for disk
operations, processing, and even screen re-draws on your old system.
And I should follow my own advice.

ulysses