Re: Wall of Sound v. Wall of Mush

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Jerry Steiger > wrote:


> You're apparently one of the folks who have really good pitch perception.
> I'm not. So I can enjoy a lot more music than you can. Sometimes it's better
> to have tin ears!


I never noticed they were off-pitch, but the Beach Boys' harmonies have
always annoyed the hell out of me. Some of their instrumental stuff is
pretty good, if fairly run-of-the-mill, but I never understood how
those vocals were ever cool. Give me Surfin' Bird over Barbara Ann any
day.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Fill X > wrote:

> Besides, if you think Citizen Kane is the most boring movie you've ever seen,
> you need to get out more.


You mean go out and see some more boring movies? Maybe he's just lucky
that he missed them all..


ulysses

[Jerry Steiger]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> I never noticed they were off-pitch, but the Beach Boys' harmonies have
> always annoyed the hell out of me. Some of their instrumental stuff is
> pretty good, if fairly run-of-the-mill, but I never understood how
> those vocals were ever cool. Give me Surfin' Bird over Barbara Ann any
> day.


Even my tin ears notice that something isn't quite right about the harmonies
on Barbara Ann. I always assumed that it was either an actual drunken bash
recording or meant to sound like they recorded it at a party. Does anyone
here have the real scoop? Or even some interesting theories?

Jerry Steiger

[[email protected]]

Justin Ulysses Morse > wrote in message >...
> Jerry Steiger > wrote:
>
>
> > You're apparently one of the folks who have really good pitch perception.
> > I'm not. So I can enjoy a lot more music than you can. Sometimes it's better
> > to have tin ears!
>
>
> I never noticed they were off-pitch, but the Beach Boys' harmonies have
> always annoyed the hell out of me. Some of their instrumental stuff is
> pretty good, if fairly run-of-the-mill, but I never understood how
> those vocals were ever cool. Give me Surfin' Bird over Barbara Ann any
> day.
>
> ulysses

Yeah.. but Barbara Ann is pretty much a joke song, a one-off. Check
out something like Heroes and Villains for a better example of their
harmony stuff.


Tom

[Marc Wielage]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:27:29 -0800, Jerry Steiger wrote
(in message >):

> Even my tin ears notice that something isn't quite right about the harmonies
> on Barbara Ann. I always assumed that it was either an actual drunken bash
> recording or meant to sound like they recorded it at a party. Does anyone
> here have the real scoop? Or even some interesting theories?
>--------------------------------snip----------------------------------<

Outtakes from the BEACH BOYS PARTY sessions reveal that the whole thing was
done at a studio (not a party), on multi-tracks, doing multiple takes of
everything. It was a loose atmosphere, though, and they knocked out the
whole thing in just a few days. The album was really an excuse to deliver an
album to Capitol quickly. And it did yield at least one major hit ("Barbara
Ann"). Given that the session had little or no overdubs, I think the flubs
can be forgiven.

Getting this back to Spector, Brian Wilson really worshipped Spector's work.
He often said that when "Be My Baby" came out, he'd park his car when it came
on the radio and just sit there and listen to it. I never understood why
Spector and Wilson never collaborated on a project -- but in retrospect, I'm
not sure any single studio could hold that much weirdness. :-)

--MFW

[Doctor Phibes]

wrote in message >...
> "Steve King" (Take our WORMBLOCK to reply)> wrote in message news:<2T6rb.145218$Tr4.382310@attbi_s03>...
> >
> > We should all hope for one moment in our professional lives wherein we were
> > at the absolute top of the heap. Phil was there in his time. Virtually
> > every second or third producer that walked in the door in those times asked
> > for the sound. So, engineers across the country, and I was one of them,
> > studied his 'wall of sound' recordings and copied them relentlessly. You
> > don't have to like a sound to respect the creator of it. I wonder what the
> > detractors we've heard from in this thread have done that have had an impact
> > on an industry. I'm betting nothing.
> >
> > Steve King
>
> Well said. I love the wall of sound. I was born in '68, so I didn't
> grow up with it. I also love minimal, sparse arrangements. I don't
> believe Spector was overrated, and I don't get how people can continue
> to slam him for ATMP. I mean, don't you think Harrison knew exactly
> what he was going to get? Don't you think that's why he chose Phil?
> Just because he changed his mind later and wished it didn't have so
> much reverb, doesn't mean it's Phil's fault. The man delivered the
> sound he created. It's like getting high, writing down some stuff you
> think is just super, then later blaming the dope because what you
> wrote (now) doesn't seem so good anymore.
>
> Tom

>
Tom,
I bet Harrison wasn't complaining when his generous backlog of "Beatle
tunes" were released in a box set, set a record I believe for most
expensive album and still sold amazingly well. There was a ton of
reverb and George's voice was buried at times but not always. That was
then this is now. Phil helped George rise to the top of the post
Beatle era. Despite the fact George was sued for My Sweet Lord the
song continues to be played in decent roation on the oldies station.

As others have pointed out that wall of mush sound was also used by
other producers. Why the sound even showed up on a Brady Bunch episode
ending with Johnny Bravo uttering, "they wanted me because I fit the
suit". This is pop music, it's for sale. I admit I find certain songs
on All things must pass that just give me a reverb headache but that
was what was going on then. Surf music uses a lot of reverb too, and
the guitars can turn to mush. The BeeGees got hammered for using
falsetto despite the fact every so called R&B act used it, to this
day. What it is is what it is.

William

[Fill X]

>> Besides, if you think Citizen Kane is the most boring movie you've ever
>seen,
>> you need to get out more.
>
>
>You mean go out and see some more boring movies? Maybe he's just lucky
>that he missed them all..

nah, rather that that's a interesting choice as the apex of boredom. I think
it's rather lively especially when compared with "Giant Gila Monster" or "The
english patient".


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Fill X" > wrote in message
...
>
> nah, rather that that's a interesting choice as the apex of boredom. I
think
> it's rather lively especially when compared with "Giant Gila Monster" or
"The
> english patient".
>

I just saw "English Patient" the first time the other day and didn't get
what the big fuss was either. I didn't quite feel like Elaine Benis that it
was overly long, just that nothing much happened.

[Yuri T.]

> Following your lead, and bathing myself in flame retardent, what's up with "Pet
> Sounds". Is it just me, or are those vocal harmonies all over the place
> pitchwise? Sure they're great parts, but what's the point if half the notes
> are flat? Again, I appreciate it was once new and groundbreaking, but that
> only goes so far.
>
>
> Joe Egan
> EMP
> Colchester, VT
> www.eganmedia.com

Well, okay. So point me to an example of a rock/pop band with better
harmonies? Sans 24 tracks, autotune etc. The Beatles, whom I love were
generally futher off than the Boys not that it matters. BB harmonies
were pretty darn complex and some were better than others. Surfer Girl
blows my mind, Heroes and Villians is another. Find a group of singers
you think are darn good. Have a few vocal rehearsals working on some
BB tunes and see.

[Mike Turk]

>
> Well, okay. So point me to an example of a rock/pop band with better
> harmonies? Sans 24 tracks, autotune etc.


Crosby, Stills and Nash? David Crosby always totally impressed me ..
the way he could latch onto the sixth ... which is not too easy IMO.

-mike

[Rob Adelman]

Mike Turk wrote:

>>Well, okay. So point me to an example of a rock/pop band with better
>>harmonies? Sans 24 tracks, autotune etc.
>
>
>
> Crosby, Stills and Nash? David Crosby always totally impressed me ..
> the way he could latch onto the sixth ... which is not too easy IMO.

And the Eagles. They do it live. No tricks.

[Nil]

On 17 Nov 2003, "Mike Turk" > wrote in
:

>> Well, okay. So point me to an example of a rock/pop band with better
>> harmonies? Sans 24 tracks, autotune etc.
>
> Crosby, Stills and Nash? David Crosby always totally impressed me ..
> the way he could latch onto the sixth ... which is not too easy IMO.

I think Crosby is great at finding and singing great harmony parts.
However, judging from the live recordings I've heard of them, the group
harmonies were usually very ragged live. Their records sound pretty
tweaked to me, with most all vocals stacked several times for thickness
and to smoothe out the irregularites. Sounds great, but not very
natural.

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Nil" > wrote in message
...
> On 17 Nov 2003, "Mike Turk" > wrote in
> :
>
>
> I think Crosby is great at finding and singing great harmony parts.
> However, judging from the live recordings I've heard of them, the group
> harmonies were usually very ragged live.

I don't know. I just watched Woodstock today and was thinking they were
pretty darn excellent live (especially in their second performance and in
front of 300,000 people).

[Lou Gimenez]

gentle giant had some amazing stuff going on vocally
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



> From: (Yuri T.)
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Date: 17 Nov 2003 13:08:17 -0800
> Subject: Re: Wall of Sound v. Wall of Mush
>
>> Following your lead, and bathing myself in flame retardent, what's up with
>> "Pet
>> Sounds". Is it just me, or are those vocal harmonies all over the place
>> pitchwise? Sure they're great parts, but what's the point if half the notes
>> are flat? Again, I appreciate it was once new and groundbreaking, but that
>> only goes so far.
>>
>>
>> Joe Egan
>> EMP
>> Colchester, VT
>> www.eganmedia.com
>
> Well, okay. So point me to an example of a rock/pop band with better
> harmonies? Sans 24 tracks, autotune etc. The Beatles, whom I love were
> generally futher off than the Boys not that it matters. BB harmonies
> were pretty darn complex and some were better than others. Surfer Girl
> blows my mind, Heroes and Villians is another. Find a group of singers
> you think are darn good. Have a few vocal rehearsals working on some
> BB tunes and see.

[knud]

>I just saw "English Patient" the first time the other day and didn't get
>what the big fuss was either. I didn't quite feel like Elaine Benis that it
>was overly long, just that nothing much happened.
>

For some reason chicks are riveted by such movies. Viva la difference I
guess.


blahblah
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EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
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