Charlie Watts drums on "Honky Tonk Women"?

[Brian]

How did they get this sound? The snare has so much tight bottom and
has just enough chain sound. I am sure that the snare has a lot to do
with it but I am guessing the room plays a large part as well. It
sounds like a lot of room sound was used. Maybe there is somewhere I
can find some engineer notes to help explain this sound. Also, is
there any outboard gear that helps the snare sound the way it does?
Thanks!

[Nathan West]

Try Charlie and a whole Band on top of their game playing in the studio.

Brian wrote:

> How did they get this sound? The snare has so much tight bottom and
> has just enough chain sound. I am sure that the snare has a lot to do
> with it but I am guessing the room plays a large part as well. It
> sounds like a lot of room sound was used. Maybe there is somewhere I
> can find some engineer notes to help explain this sound. Also, is
> there any outboard gear that helps the snare sound the way it does?
> Thanks!

--
Cheers and All
Nathan

" Elementary chaos theory tells us that all of Cakewalk will eventually
turn against their masters and run amok in an orgy of blood and kicking
and the biting with the metal teeth and the hurting and shoving."
-Professor Frink

[Fletcher]

"Brian" > wrote in message
om...
> How did they get this sound? The snare has so much tight bottom and
> has just enough chain sound. I am sure that the snare has a lot to do
> with it but I am guessing the room plays a large part as well. It
> sounds like a lot of room sound was used. Maybe there is somewhere I
> can find some engineer notes to help explain this sound. Also, is
> there any outboard gear that helps the snare sound the way it does?


The drummer, the drums, the drum tunings, the room, a talented production
team, then the equipment in that order... dude, it was 1968... Lexicon
wasn't as much as a distant fantasy. If that was Glynn Johns then it was an
AKG D-30 in front of the kit, a U-67 over the kit and a U-67 on the side of
the kit... through the custom built desk at Olympic to a 3M tape machine.
Like I said... it was the drummer, the drums, the drum tunings, the room,
and a talented production team... then the equipment... in that order.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

[EggHd]

I remember something about some Stones recordings in Tape Op some time ago but
I don't remember the song discussed.


---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[Bryson]

Fletcher wrote:
> "Brian" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>How did they get this sound? The snare has so much tight bottom and
>>has just enough chain sound. I am sure that the snare has a lot to do
>>with it but I am guessing the room plays a large part as well. It
>>sounds like a lot of room sound was used. Maybe there is somewhere I
>>can find some engineer notes to help explain this sound. Also, is
>>there any outboard gear that helps the snare sound the way it does?
>
>
>
> The drummer, the drums, the drum tunings, the room, a talented production
> team, then the equipment in that order... dude, it was 1968... Lexicon
> wasn't as much as a distant fantasy. If that was Glynn Johns then it was an
> AKG D-30 in front of the kit, a U-67 over the kit and a U-67 on the side of
> the kit... through the custom built desk at Olympic to a 3M tape machine.
> Like I said... it was the drummer, the drums, the drum tunings, the room,
> and a talented production team... then the equipment... in that order.
> --
> Fletcher


And the cowbell.

[JWelsh3374]

<< And the cowbell. >>


The last time I looked...we don't have a lot of songs that featured the
cowbell.



searching for peace, love and quality footwear
guido

http://www.guidotoons.com
http://www.theloniousmoog.com
http://www.luckymanclark.com

[JWelsh3374]

Small carpeted room makes a big ole wompey sound...pics I seem to recall are in
a smaller, carpeted room. Oh, and Charlie efiin Watts in his prime. And Gretsch
drums.


searching for peace, love and quality footwear
guido

http://www.guidotoons.com
http://www.theloniousmoog.com
http://www.luckymanclark.com

[Neil Henderson]

>> Like I said... it was the drummer, the drums, the drum tunings, the room,
>> and a talented production team... then the equipment... in that order.
>> --
>> Fletcher
>
>
>And the cowbell.

Dude, it was 1968... THE Bruce Dickinson was still soiling his gold-plated
diapers back then. There was no TRUE cowbell mastery until 1970 and
"Mississippi Queen".

NeilH

[georgeh]

(Neil Henderson) writes:

>>And the cowbell.

>Dude, it was 1968... THE Bruce Dickinson was still soiling his gold-plated
>diapers back then. There was no TRUE cowbell mastery until 1970 and
>"Mississippi Queen".

What about "You Can't Do That" in 1964 ?

[Bryson]

georgeh wrote:
> (Neil Henderson) writes:
>
>
>>>And the cowbell.
>
>
>>Dude, it was 1968... THE Bruce Dickinson was still soiling his gold-plated
>>diapers back then. There was no TRUE cowbell mastery until 1970 and
>>"Mississippi Queen".
>
>
> What about "You Can't Do That" in 1964 ?

The Chambers Brothers 1967 - "Time Has Come Today" Cowbell with echo!

[Buster Mudd]

(EggHd) wrote in message >...
> I remember something about some Stones recordings in Tape Op some time ago but
> I don't remember the song discussed.
>

About a year ago they interviewed Jimmy Johnson, he talked about
tracking "Brown Sugar" & "Wild Horses" at Muscle Shoals.

For a brief while I had cut out the paragraph where Johnson said "E-V
RE15's on Keith's amp" & taped onto the front of our mic locker, &
sure enough every guitarist who came through the studio suddenly
decided an SM57 wasn't cool enough, had to go with the RE-15.

[Roger W. Norman]

Wasn't Charlie in his prime about 20 years before the rest of the Stones?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"JWelsh3374" > wrote in message
...
> Small carpeted room makes a big ole wompey sound...pics I seem to recall
are in
> a smaller, carpeted room. Oh, and Charlie efiin Watts in his prime. And
Gretsch
> drums.
>
>
> searching for peace, love and quality footwear
> guido
>
> http://www.guidotoons.com
> http://www.theloniousmoog.com
> http://www.luckymanclark.com

[WillStG]

> (EggHd)
>I remember something about some Stones recordings in Tape Op some time ago
>but
>I don't remember the song discussed.

Tape Op covered Jimmy Johnson and the Muscle Shoals sessions for Sticky
Fingers. Brown Sugar, You Gotta Move, and Wild Horses were recorded on their
Universal Audio console.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[JMS]

There's a new (large red) book just released by the Stones. I forget
the name. In it Charlie attributes a lot of the drum parts and sound
to (then) producer Jimmy Miller. Jimmy played the drums on "You Can't
Always Get What You Want" and "Happy" as well. Apparently (by
Charlie's admission) Jimmy was instrumental in helping to shape
Charlie's performance during the recordings of songs like "Honky Tonk"
and "Jumpin Jack Flash".
BTW That's Jimmy playing the very syncopated cowbell in "Honky Tonk".
I agree with Fletcher...the magic was in the team of people involved.
The equipment was secondary.

Jimmy Miller (RIP)
Nicky Hopkins (RIP)
Brian Jones (RIP)
Mick/Keith
Charlie/Bill
Rocky Djorn (RIP)
Glynn Johns
Eddie Kramer
Olympic Studios
Anita Pallenberg
Marianne Faithful
England
1968
Beggars Banquet

[chetatkinsdiet]

I was even thinking that this song was one that was recorded at Muscle
Shoals....I can't seem to remember and am too tired to dig through all
my old TapeOps for that article. Either way...see Fletchers list of
things above...in order of importance. Someone else mentioned the
Stones being "on top of their game". I don't know if they've really
ever been there. They are without a doubt, my fav alltime band, but
in the studio, I hear, you'll get an hour of junk, 5 minutes of
brillance...then back to the junk again. You've just got to keep the
tape rolling with these guys.

later,
m

[Don Pearce]

On 12 Nov 2003 06:45:34 -0800, (chetatkinsdiet)
wrote:

>I was even thinking that this song was one that was recorded at Muscle
>Shoals....I can't seem to remember and am too tired to dig through all
>my old TapeOps for that article. Either way...see Fletchers list of
>things above...in order of importance. Someone else mentioned the
>Stones being "on top of their game". I don't know if they've really
>ever been there. They are without a doubt, my fav alltime band, but
>in the studio, I hear, you'll get an hour of junk, 5 minutes of
>brillance...then back to the junk again. You've just got to keep the
>tape rolling with these guys.
>
>later,
>m

Not sure it is because they are bad per se - more that you have to
wait for them all to be simultaneously present on planet Earth.

(Post nuclear holocaust the only organisms to survive will be
cockroaches and Keith Richard)

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Roger W. Norman]

Nice list and a reminder. I sorely miss Nicky Hopkins. In rock he's my
guiding light, along with a litte Leon Russell. He didn't do a bad job on
the Orange album by Jeff Beck, either.

It's easy to see why the Stones have Chuck Levell (Sea Level and up) as
their main guy these days. He's usually the musical director onstage unless
Mick gets it up about doing a specific song, and then it's Chuck bringing
them back to where they were supposed to be.

There's something to be said for having a rock solid piano player in rock
music. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a piano player. I play
bass, guitar and drums too. But out of the instruments I play (oops, forgot
I used to play sax and concertina) the piano certainly keeps most of my
interests. And, to bring this back around, 90% of that interest in piano is
because of Nicky Hopkins. I just hope he's nice enough to get up from that
big piano in the sky and let a couple of the others have a chance to play.
I imagine Duke Ellington is chomping at the bit. Or maybe HIS personal hell
is over in the Karen Carpenter room playing piano on "Close to You". Is
there really that much difference between Heaven and Hell. Satchmo get's to
sing scat along with Marilyn Monroe, good or bad?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"JMS" > wrote in message
om...
> There's a new (large red) book just released by the Stones. I forget
> the name. In it Charlie attributes a lot of the drum parts and sound
> to (then) producer Jimmy Miller. Jimmy played the drums on "You Can't
> Always Get What You Want" and "Happy" as well. Apparently (by
> Charlie's admission) Jimmy was instrumental in helping to shape
> Charlie's performance during the recordings of songs like "Honky Tonk"
> and "Jumpin Jack Flash".
> BTW That's Jimmy playing the very syncopated cowbell in "Honky Tonk".
> I agree with Fletcher...the magic was in the team of people involved.
> The equipment was secondary.
>
> Jimmy Miller (RIP)
> Nicky Hopkins (RIP)
> Brian Jones (RIP)
> Mick/Keith
> Charlie/Bill
> Rocky Djorn (RIP)
> Glynn Johns
> Eddie Kramer
> Olympic Studios
> Anita Pallenberg
> Marianne Faithful
> England
> 1968
> Beggars Banquet

[Roger W. Norman]

Outboard equipment not available until he walks in? <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Mark Plancke" > wrote in message
...
> On 11 Nov 2003 16:23:29 -0800, (Brian)
> wrote:
>
> >Also, is
> >there any outboard gear that helps the snare sound the way it does?
> >Thanks!
>
> Yep, it's called Charlie Watts.
>
> Mark
> "I'm the master of low expectations."
> GW Bush
> Aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

[Roger W. Norman]

Keeping tape rolling is all of what music recording is about. The
difference is when you can get a bunch of guys to lay down 16 songs in an
afternoon and you can use 12 of them, and guys that only lay down 2 songs
and both are iffy. In this studio, once the doorbell rings tape of some
sort rolls. No red recording lights (no red light syndrome in my studio - I
don't even have control room glass), no conversations about recording, just
plain unadulterated music, good or not.

Well, everyonce in a while you'd hear someone ask if the tape is rolling and
I'd answer "do what you're going to do". But overall, the idea is to be
recording all the time because even one musician getting into some playing
can be something.

Geez, isn't it nice that we are allowed to take even the smallest minutes of
time and preserve or present them to the world?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
...
> I was even thinking that this song was one that was recorded at Muscle
> Shoals....I can't seem to remember and am too tired to dig through all
> my old TapeOps for that article. Either way...see Fletchers list of
> things above...in order of importance. Someone else mentioned the
> Stones being "on top of their game". I don't know if they've really
> ever been there. They are without a doubt, my fav alltime band, but
> in the studio, I hear, you'll get an hour of junk, 5 minutes of
> brillance...then back to the junk again. You've just got to keep the
> tape rolling with these guys.
>
> later,
> m

[Charles Thomas]

In article >,
"Roger W. Norman" > wrote:

> Geez, isn't it nice that we are allowed to take even the smallest minutes of
> time and preserve or present them to the world?

I have that thought all the time.

So many greats are gone now, but I can still hear them breathing and
doing what they do best at the top of their game with just a press of a
button.

It's pretty amazing, when you think about it.

CT

[Nil]

On 12 Nov 2003, "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in
:

> Nice list and a reminder. I sorely miss Nicky Hopkins. In rock
> he's my guiding light, along with a litte Leon Russell. He didn't
> do a bad job on the Orange album by Jeff Beck, either.

Nicky was great, but wasn't it Max Middleton on the Orange album?

[Roger W. Norman]

I think you're right, now that you mention it. My apologies to Max. And my
appreciation at the same time.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Nil" > wrote in message
...
> On 12 Nov 2003, "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Nice list and a reminder. I sorely miss Nicky Hopkins. In rock
> > he's my guiding light, along with a litte Leon Russell. He didn't
> > do a bad job on the Orange album by Jeff Beck, either.
>
> Nicky was great, but wasn't it Max Middleton on the Orange album?

[Brian]

I know Charlie is a great drummer. I know that Charlie is not a super
hard hitter. I know the studio and equipment play a smaller role than
Charlie himself. But I am going to step outside the norm and say I
still hear something special about the room sound... and how it was
mic'd up.

[EggHd]

<< But I am going to step outside the norm and say I
still hear something special about the room sound... and how it was
mic'd up. >>

The whole track is special.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[WillStG]

> "Roger W. Norman"

>Nice list and a reminder. I sorely miss Nicky Hopkins. In rock he's my
>guiding light, along with a litte Leon Russell.

Hey, I was thinking the same thing about how important "Edward The Mad
Shirt Grinder" was as player on some of favorite albums. I hadn't realized he
died in 1996 until this thread actually, when he was playing with Steve Miller
and Quicksilver Messenger Service and they were all living in Hawaii a lot of
the time I saw him play often at the small amphitheatre at UH Manoa. No baby
grand either, just hammering away on uprights...

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Bryson]

Nicky played on "Truth", as did Ronnie Wood (Bass).

And how 'bout Max on Blow By Blow?

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> I think you're right, now that you mention it. My apologies to Max. And my
> appreciation at the same time.
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Is that a long sentence or what? <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"WillStG" > wrote in message
...
> > "Roger W. Norman"
>
> >Nice list and a reminder. I sorely miss Nicky Hopkins. In rock he's my
> >guiding light, along with a litte Leon Russell.
>
> Hey, I was thinking the same thing about how important "Edward The
Mad
> Shirt Grinder" was as player on some of favorite albums. I hadn't
realized he
> died in 1996 until this thread actually, when he was playing with Steve
Miller
> and Quicksilver Messenger Service and they were all living in Hawaii a lot
of
> the time I saw him play often at the small amphitheatre at UH Manoa. No
baby
> grand either, just hammering away on uprights...
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music & TV Audio Guy
> Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
>
>

[chetatkinsdiet]

How can you leave Stu off your list? It's his band....
....or was back then.
later,
m

>
> Jimmy Miller (RIP)
> Nicky Hopkins (RIP)
> Brian Jones (RIP)
> Mick/Keith
> Charlie/Bill
> Rocky Djorn (RIP)
> Glynn Johns
> Eddie Kramer
> Olympic Studios
> Anita Pallenberg
> Marianne Faithful
> England
> 1968
> Beggars Banquet

[Fletcher]

Brian wrote:

> I know Charlie is a great drummer. I know that Charlie is not a super
> hard hitter. I know the studio and equipment play a smaller role than
> Charlie himself. But I am going to step outside the norm and say I
> still hear something special about the room sound... and how it was
> mic'd up.

I went over that in a previous post... pay attention.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

[Fletcher]

Bryson wrote:

>
> And the cowbell.

That was Mr. Jimmy Miller on cowbell... that and the open G tuning made the track
didn't it...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

[[email protected]]

(JMS) wrote in message >...
>
> Jimmy Miller (RIP)
> Nicky Hopkins (RIP)
> Brian Jones (RIP)
> Mick/Keith
> Charlie/Bill
> Rocky Djorn (RIP)
> Glynn Johns
> Eddie Kramer
> Olympic Studios
> Anita Pallenberg
> Marianne Faithful
> England
> 1968
> Beggars Banquet

You forgot Ian "Stu" Stewart.
And Jack Nitzsche.

[Mondoslug1]

(JMS) wrote in message
>...
>>
>> Jimmy Miller (RIP)
>> Nicky Hopkins (RIP)
>> Brian Jones (RIP)
>> Mick/Keith
>> Charlie/Bill
>> Rocky Djorn (RIP)
>> Glynn Johns
>> Eddie Kramer
>> Olympic Studios
>> Anita Pallenberg
>> Marianne Faithful
>> England
>> 1968
>> Beggars Banquet
>
>You forgot Ian "Stu" Stewart.
>And Jack Nitzsche.
>

Hey all those RIP guys knew Clinton right?

[Brian]

Let me clarify:

Does anyone know what the live room for that track was like. Was it a
large room, what did it have on the walls, does anyone know where the
room mic's were placed if any. I am trying to get as much accurate
information on this session is possible, any help is appreciated. For
those that want to tell me Charlie, (I believe you and I know...I've
read your posts)just looking for some more tangibles. Thanks for all
of your replies.

[MikeK]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
...
> there really that much difference between Heaven and Hell. Satchmo get's
to
> sing scat along with Marilyn Monroe, good or bad?

It's good if he gets to put his hand on her bum...

[mbenson]

"Brian" > wrote in message
om...
> Let me clarify:
>
> Does anyone know what the live room for that track was like. Was it a
> large room, what did it have on the walls, does anyone know where the
> room mic's were placed if any. I am trying to get as much accurate
> information on this session is possible, any help is appreciated. For
> those that want to tell me Charlie, (I believe you and I know...I've
> read your posts)just looking for some more tangibles. Thanks for all
> of your replies.

The person I think you would really want to talk with would be Bill Wyman(if
that's possible). From all accounts I have read and heard, he was the
historian on those earlier records.

Getting in touch with him might be a bitch, tho......
--
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
405.728.7005

[Doctor Phibes]

(Brian) wrote in message >...
> How did they get this sound? The snare has so much tight bottom and
> has just enough chain sound. I am sure that the snare has a lot to do
> with it but I am guessing the room plays a large part as well. It
> sounds like a lot of room sound was used. Maybe there is somewhere I
> can find some engineer notes to help explain this sound. Also, is
> there any outboard gear that helps the snare sound the way it does?
> Thanks!

>
Someone refresh mymemory. I seem to recall Watts drumming being
mentioned on the Steels Wheels album. The song with the big drum
beat(escapes me) was recorded in a stair well. I want to say honky
tonk might have had a similar approach. I could be wrong. The Stones
often would do things slightly different. Like on Jumpin Jack Flash,
Kieth used an acoustic Guitar and overdrived the board. Going back to
Honkey Tonk it sounds like a hall or something. I wish I could find
some old interviews.

good luck,
William

[Bob Ross]

mbenson wrote:

> The person I think you would really want to talk with would be Bill Wyman...
>
> Getting in touch with him might be a bitch, tho

....unless you were a 12-year-old girl.



/Bob Ross

[Brian]

> Someone refresh mymemory. I seem to recall Watts drumming being
> mentioned on the Steels Wheels album. The song with the big drum
> beat(escapes me) was recorded in a stair well. I want to say honky
> tonk might have had a similar approach. I could be wrong. The Stones
> often would do things slightly different. Like on Jumpin Jack Flash,
> Kieth used an acoustic Guitar and overdrived the board. Going back to
> Honkey Tonk it sounds like a hall or something. I wish I could find
> some old interviews.
>
> good luck,
> William

Voodoo Lounge - Moon Is Up

The drums were recorded in the stair well and you can definitely hear
the hard surfaces of the stair well. If I remember correctly I think
he plays brushes. Unique sound but not the HTW sound.

[WillStG]

> "Ken Platt"

>Yeah, it's really funny when I hear guys do that (or brown sugar or gimme
>shelter or or or) in standard. It's like are you f'n deaf. Open friggen G

If I'm not mistaken sometimes in the past Keith has played in open G with
the high E string tuned normally, basically just a 5 stringed guitar with the A
dropped to a G. That way you can play lead on the open strings like normal
tuning and still get the open G sound, if you lay off the top string.



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Doctor Phibes]

(Brian) wrote in message >...
> > Someone refresh mymemory. I seem to recall Watts drumming being
> > mentioned on the Steels Wheels album. The song with the big drum
> > beat(escapes me) was recorded in a stair well. I want to say honky
> > tonk might have had a similar approach. I could be wrong. The Stones
> > often would do things slightly different. Like on Jumpin Jack Flash,
> > Kieth used an acoustic Guitar and overdrived the board. Going back to
> > Honkey Tonk it sounds like a hall or something. I wish I could find
> > some old interviews.
> >
> > good luck,
> > William
>
> Voodoo Lounge - Moon Is Up
>
> The drums were recorded in the stair well and you can definitely hear
> the hard surfaces of the stair well. If I remember correctly I think
> he plays brushes. Unique sound but not the HTW sound.

>
I'm thinking of that other song though. Mixed Emotions. They did the
same thing there. HTW definately has some air, maybe some distant
miking as well as a large room. It's also a drum sound that takes on a
new life since it's in pretty high rotation on oldies stations who use
more reverb over entire track. It's a good rock song either way, nice
ambient drum, crunchy open tuned guitar riffs/chords and great vocal
performance by the lip man.

William