Re: Fade-out advices ?

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

It's important to listen to what's going on in the song during the
fade. There are certain elements that will gain more prominence during
the last seconds of a fade, and those will be what sticks in the
listener's mind. A lot of old records have taken this into account.
One cool thing historically has been to push the bass guitar up in the
mix as the song fades out; or to time the fade so some especially
clever vocal ad-lib pops out at the end. One drawback to letting the
mastering house do the fades is that they can't control the mix while
fading. You can.

ulysses


In article <znr1068505900k@trad>, Mike Rivers >
wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Would any of you have good advices, rules of thumb, etc. of how to make a
> > successful fade-out for a song ? Mines never seem to sound right...
>
> Use a fader and listen as you're fading. Actually, fades are more
> critical than you think. They need to be musical, so they need to
> follow the rhythm and mood of the song.
>
> One of the things that you should be able to rely on a mastering
> engineer to do is proper fadeouts. This is why it's a good idea to
> just let your song run out longer than you need and let someone who's
> listening to the whole project decide how to do the fade. Chances are
> he'll be right, and it will be clean.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> It's important to listen to what's going on in the song during the
> fade. There are certain elements that will gain more prominence during
> the last seconds of a fade, and those will be what sticks in the
> listener's mind. A lot of old records have taken this into account.
> One cool thing historically has been to push the bass guitar up in the
> mix as the song fades out; or to time the fade so some especially
> clever vocal ad-lib pops out at the end. One drawback to letting the
> mastering house do the fades is that they can't control the mix while
> fading. You can.

Yes. The Fletcher Munson effect will take over as you lower the volume and
the mix won't sound the same as it did full volume.

[Bob Ross]

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

> One drawback to letting the
> mastering house do the fades is that they can't control the mix while
> fading. You can.

This is *so* important. I never leave a fade-out to the mastering engineer, not
because I don't trust them or think I have better tools, but because I never do
a fadeout where there isn't a ****load of stuff going on during the fade that is
timed to the fade. If yer just gonna pull the master down a monkey can do
that...

/Bob Ross

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I never leave a fade-out to the mastering engineer, not
> because I don't trust them or think I have better tools, but because I never do
> a fadeout where there isn't a ****load of stuff going on during the fade that
> is
> timed to the fade.

A good mastering engineer will be aware of the musicality of making a
good fadeout. I believe that Bob Katz addresses this in his book
Mastering Audio. Anyone can pull down a fader, but that's what radio
DJs do.

Besides, why fade out? Why not just arrange the music so that it ends?



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
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[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1068814995k@trad...
>
>
> Besides, why fade out? Why not just arrange the music so that it ends?
>

The song may not warrant it. What about songs where repetitive obsessive is
the theme like "Every Breath You Take"? Songs like that never sound right
when just "ended", even in concert.

[Rob Adelman]

Ricky W. Hunt wrote:


>>Besides, why fade out? Why not just arrange the music so that it ends?
>>
>
>
> The song may not warrant it. What about songs where repetitive obsessive is
> the theme like "Every Breath You Take"? Songs like that never sound right
> when just "ended", even in concert.

And sometimes, such as on many Pink Floyd albums, one song sort of fades
into the next song, actually overlapping during the fade out/ fade in.

[Bob Ross]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > I never leave a fade-out to the mastering engineer, not
> > because I don't trust them or think I have better tools, but because I never do
> > a fadeout where there isn't a ****load of stuff going on during the fade that
> > is
> > timed to the fade.
>
> A good mastering engineer will be aware of the musicality of making a
> good fadeout.

I was referring to mix elements that change dynamically during the fade out: e.g.,
the reverb returns increase in level in a 1/n:n ratio inversely proportional to the
master fader, or the acoustic guitar begins to increase in level by 0.5dB/second
*after* the master fader has reached -20 on its way to infinity... Can't do that
sort of stuff from a 2-track master.

> Besides, why fade out? Why not just arrange the music so that it ends?

Why not have the drummer play at a different tempo than the rest of the band?
Why have the bass player outline root motion while the piano plays chord tones &
tensions? Why not swap those roles?
Why sing on key?
Why do we make *any* of the decisions we do as musicians, composers, arrangers,
producers, etc.? Because ostensibly someone thought that it would sound good & that
other people would want to listen to it performed/recorded/mixed that way.

(That plus the other good reason for fading out: because the band started to suck
shortly thereafter.)

/Bob Ross

[Mike Rivers]

In article <9Lbtb.198208$HS4.1681118@attbi_s01> writes:

> > Besides, why fade out? Why not just arrange the music so that it ends?

> The song may not warrant it. What about songs where repetitive obsessive is
> the theme like "Every Breath You Take"? Songs like that never sound right
> when just "ended", even in concert.

Maybe they shouldn't be performed in concert then.

But a song like this should have a pretty obvious way to fade out, or
else it should be obvious that it doesn't matter as long as it's long,
slow, and eventually everyone will realize that the song has ended.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I was referring to mix elements that change dynamically during the fade out:
> e.g.,
> the reverb returns increase in level in a 1/n:n ratio inversely proportional to
> the
> master fader, or the acoustic guitar begins to increase in level by
> 0.5dB/second
> *after* the master fader has reached -20 on its way to infinity... Can't do
> that
> sort of stuff from a 2-track master.

This is no longer a fadeout, it's a mix. Just do it.

> > Besides, why fade out? Why not just arrange the music so that it ends?
>
> Why not have the drummer play at a different tempo than the rest of the band?
> Why have the bass player outline root motion while the piano plays chord tones
> &
> tensions? Why not swap those roles?
> Why sing on key?
> Why do we make *any* of the decisions we do as musicians, composers, arrangers,
> producers, etc.? Because ostensibly someone thought that it would sound good &
> that
> other people would want to listen to it performed/recorded/mixed that way.

Yeah, but music in nature doesn't fade out.

> (That plus the other good reason for fading out: because the band started to
> suck
> shortly thereafter.)

Unfortunately, that's the second most common reason for fading out
after never having planned how to end the song.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
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[Bob Ross]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Yeah, but music in nature doesn't fade out.

Music doesn't do anything period without human intervention of some sort. If the
intervening humans decide to fade out a mix, that's just as "natural" as deciding to
record one's music inthe first place.

(For those who would argue that birdsong is "natural" music without human
intervention, I would point out that it requires a human being to *perceive* the
birdsong as music.)

/Bob Ross

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Music doesn't do anything period without human intervention of some sort. If
> the
> intervening humans decide to fade out a mix, that's just as "natural" as
> deciding to
> record one's music inthe first place.

What's natural about deciding to record one's music? It's for
marketing or because the musician thinks he's so important that
someone might want to listen to a recording if he can't hear the
musician in person.

I don't know of any composer who has written a fadeout into his music.
Sometimes the composer or artist decides that this is the best way to
end the music so it's done in a recording. I doubt that any live
fadeout would be the same as a recording, if for no other reason than
it wouldn't be the same every time.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Jerry Steiger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1068851410k@trad...
>
> In article <9Lbtb.198208$HS4.1681118@attbi_s01>
writes:
>
> > > Besides, why fade out? Why not just arrange the music so that it ends?


I thought about bringing up this point, but decided that my opinion was
worth about as much attention as it was likely to get. Either Neil Young or
Stephen Stills had a philosophical prejudice against fade outs, so most
(all?) Buffalo Springfield songs ended when the band thought they should. I
always liked that.

Jerry Steiger

[initialsBB]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1068859041k@trad>...
> Yeah, but music in nature doesn't fade out.

It does if the band plays on and on for eternity and you slowly walk
off into the sunset while listening. Or the car next to you at the
light drives away faster than you do.

[Bob Ross]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Music doesn't do anything period without human intervention of some sort. If
> > the
> > intervening humans decide to fade out a mix, that's just as "natural" as
> > deciding to
> > record one's music inthe first place.
>
> What's natural about deciding to record one's music?

That was my point.

> I don't know of any composer who has written a fadeout into his music.
> Sometimes the composer or artist decides that this is the best way to
> end the music so it's done in a recording. I doubt that any live
> fadeout would be the same as a recording, if for no other reason than
> it wouldn't be the same every time.

I know a few composers who have concluded pieces or movements with an ensemble
fade to silence (niente); they're mostly from academic or avant-jazz circles. But
yes, a live fadeout sounds nothing like a fadeout executed during mixdown. Not
sure that observation does anything to legitimize or delegitimize the use of
fadeout as a way to end a piece of music.

/Bob Ross

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> Yeah, but music in nature doesn't fade out.


Of course it does. You've never heard a marching band?


ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Bob Ross > wrote:

> (For those who would argue that birdsong is "natural" music without human
> intervention, I would point out that it requires a human being to *perceive*
> the birdsong as music.)


Yeah, and birds don't always stop singing when you walk away.


ulysses

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Well, some people (appear to) regard the fade out is a cover,
> or crutch... an attempt to hide an inadequacy for "not being able
> to come up with an ending".

Sometimes it isn't, but most of the time it is. Why would someone who
writes a song not be able to finish it? Or more significantly, why
would the writer think that the best way to finish it is to just let
it fade off into the sunset? That works for movies on rare occasions
but I can almost always tell long before the fade that a fadeout is
coming. The song just repeats and repeats and repeats and eventually
you realist that it's not there any more.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Mike Rivers > wrote:
> > Yeah, but music in nature doesn't fade out.

> Of course it does. You've never heard a marching band?

That's not the music fading out, though. I'm sure that the band would
really be much happier if you were walking along with them and heard
everything that they were playing, until they stopped. On the other
hand, I've heard some marching bands that have made me want to run the
other way, but I could achieve essentially the same results by putting
in earplugs or just covering my ears. Usually I make that decision
very near the beginning of the music, however, not near the end.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Bob Ross]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Why would someone who
> writes a song not be able to finish it?

You seem to be confusing the unfortunate fact that many songwriters do use a fadeout
as a crutch for not having an idea on how to finish the tune with a universal
absolute. A fadeout can be a choice made by the musician, composer, arranger, or
producer; they have decided that a fadeout *is* how the song ends, & that choice is
just as valid & legitimate & (hopefully) musically relevant as every other choice
they have made in the realization of that piece.

> Or more significantly, why
> would the writer think that the best way to finish it is to just let
> it fade off into the sunset?

For the same reason that some writers might think that having the drummer play at
the same tempo as the rest of the band is a good idea; or that having the bass
player outline root motion while the piano plays chord tones &
tensions, not the other way around, is the best role for those instruments; or that
singing on key is the best way to put across a vocal:

Why do we make *any* of the decisions we do as musicians, composers, arrangers,
producers, etc.? Because ostensibly someone thought that it would sound good & that
other people would want to listen to it performed/recorded/mixed that way.

Or, maybe the tune is *about* fading off into the sunset.

/Bob Ross

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

You know, when I get an album to work on that has a fade-out, I just
throw the tapes and the money back in the artist's face and tell them
to come back when they've finished writing the song. It's this
commitment to quality that keeps me booked solid and rolling in money!
Don't you believe me?

ulysses


In article >, Bob Ross
> wrote:

> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> > Why would someone who
> > writes a song not be able to finish it?
>
> You seem to be confusing the unfortunate fact that many songwriters do use a
> fadeout
> as a crutch for not having an idea on how to finish the tune with a universal
> absolute. A fadeout can be a choice made by the musician, composer, arranger,
> or
> producer; they have decided that a fadeout *is* how the song ends, & that
> choice is
> just as valid & legitimate & (hopefully) musically relevant as every other
> choice
> they have made in the realization of that piece.
>
> > Or more significantly, why
> > would the writer think that the best way to finish it is to just let
> > it fade off into the sunset?
>
> For the same reason that some writers might think that having the drummer
> play at
> the same tempo as the rest of the band is a good idea; or that having the bass
> player outline root motion while the piano plays chord tones &
> tensions, not the other way around, is the best role for those instruments;
> or that
> singing on key is the best way to put across a vocal:
>
> Why do we make *any* of the decisions we do as musicians, composers,
> arrangers,
> producers, etc.? Because ostensibly someone thought that it would sound good
> & that
> other people would want to listen to it performed/recorded/mixed that way.
>
> Or, maybe the tune is *about* fading off into the sunset.
>
> /Bob Ross
>
>
>

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> You know, when I get an album to work on that has a fade-out, I just
> throw the tapes and the money back in the artist's face and tell them
> to come back when they've finished writing the song. It's this
> commitment to quality that keeps me booked solid and rolling in money!
> Don't you believe me?

I'd like to.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo