Most likely culprit low volume using a turntable? [Archive]

Scott Dorsey

February 20th 17, 02:31 PM

Brassplyer > wrote:
>If there's a low volume issue using a previously functioning turntable setup, what would you be most suspicious of? Is a stylus/cart unit generally a "works or it doesn't" piece or not necessarily? Can the cart itself cause low volume?

Anything can cause low volume, and likely a low volume problem is accompanied
by a lot of other problems that they aren't noticing.

>The hardware in question is a Dual 1237, Epoch II cart, Pyle PP444 pre, unknown receiver/amp. I'm asking for someone else.

The headshell connections in the 1237 are bad. They are always bad.
Also the leaf switch that silences the thing is bad. Those are always bad too.
Throw the Dual away. Autochangers are not your friend.

However, the right way to diagnose a problem like this is by substitution.
Put another turntable into the preamp... is it okay? Then put another
cartridge into the existing turntable. Is it okay?

>Can you recommend a resource for instructions to test the components in the chain?

I recommend simple substitution techniques, but I don't have a good reference
for them except maybe "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." However,
the fact that there is a 1970s Dual autochanger in there which is known to
have two sets of mechanical contacts in the signal path which are always going
bad would indicate a good place to start. Just cramolin the leaf switch,
the headshell connectors, and the cartridge pins while you're at it.

On the other hand... that cartridge might be old enough for the rubber
suspension to have failed completely.

In general, if you are having the same problem on both channels, it's good
to look for something common to both channels rather than expecting two
different failures. However, with a system known to be prone to contact
issues, expecting two different failures (if not more) is not out of the
question.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

brassplyer

February 21st 17, 01:17 AM

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Throw the Dual away. Autochangers are not your friend.

By autochanger I assume you mean the kind of turntable that has a long spindle and an arm to hold and drop records onto the platter? This one doesn't do that. I'm guessing this doesn't really change the rest of your advice?

Here's a pic on Google drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zvAZXgfLgiVU01QjVlQ3lvV1E/view?usp=sharing

[email protected]

February 21st 17, 01:23 AM

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:46:56 AM UTC-5, Brassplyer wrote:
> If there's a low volume issue using a previously functioning turntable setup, what would you be most suspicious of? Is a stylus/cart unit generally a "works or it doesn't" piece or not necessarily? Can the cart itself cause low volume?
>
> The hardware in question is a Dual 1237, Epoch II cart, Pyle PP444 pre, unknown receiver/amp. I'm asking for someone else.
>
> Can you recommend a resource for instructions to test the components in the chain?
>
> Thanks.

Have you tried it with as different (pre) amplifier?

brassplyer

February 21st 17, 02:55 AM

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:24:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:

> Have you tried it with as different (pre) amplifier?

Not mine, asking on behalf of someone else. I've suggested that.

Brutus

February 21st 17, 05:59 AM

Does the preamp (receiver etc.)have a phono section?

"Brassplyer" > wrote in message
...
> On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:24:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
>> Have you tried it with as different (pre) amplifier?
>
>
> Not mine, asking on behalf of someone else. I've suggested that.
>

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Mat Nieuwenhoven

February 21st 17, 11:21 AM

On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:17:26 -0800 (PST), Brassplyer wrote:

>On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Throw the Dual away. Autochangers are not your friend.
>
>By autochanger I assume you mean the kind of turntable that has a long spindle and an arm to hold and drop records onto the platter? This one doesn't do that. I'm guessing this doesn't really change the rest of your advice?

Dual didn't need a seperate arm. I owned once a Dual 1019, also an
autochanger, which had a replacable spindle. A short one for normal
use, and a long one for autochanger. This had an internal shaft that
moved down/up, if a platter needed to drop. In case of changing
records, it clamped the second-lowest platter (and thus all above
it), and retracted a 3-prong holder for the lower platter. Was very
cute.They once had a much older model which did have a arm, and a (I
think piezo) element with switchable needles type KS2.

Mat Nieuwenhoven

Scott Dorsey

February 21st 17, 04:27 PM

Brassplyer > wrote:
>On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Throw the Dual away. Autochangers are not your friend.
>
>By autochanger I assume you mean the kind of turntable that has a long spindle and an arm to hold and drop records onto the platter? This one doesn't do that. I'm guessing this doesn't really change the rest of your advice?
>
>Here's a pic on Google drive.
>
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zvAZXgfLgiVU01QjVlQ3lvV1E/view?usp=sharing

Yes, You can pop up the alignment pin in the center and insert the autochanger
spindle. There is an enormous amount of cantankerous mechanical gadgetry
underneath in order to make the autochanging system work.

You're not using the autochanging mechanism, but you're still going to be
having to deal with a lot of the problems with it. Like the leaf switch
used to silence the thing while it's changing records going bad.

Look underneath, but take a deep breath before you do so.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Don Pearce[_3_]

February 21st 17, 04:34 PM

On 21 Feb 2017 11:27:22 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Brassplyer > wrote:
>>On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>> Throw the Dual away. Autochangers are not your friend.
>>
>>By autochanger I assume you mean the kind of turntable that has a long spindle and an arm to hold and drop records onto the platter? This one doesn't do that. I'm guessing this doesn't really change the rest of your advice?
>>
>>Here's a pic on Google drive.
>>
>>https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zvAZXgfLgiVU01QjVlQ3lvV1E/view?usp=sharing
>
>Yes, You can pop up the alignment pin in the center and insert the autochanger
>spindle. There is an enormous amount of cantankerous mechanical gadgetry
>underneath in order to make the autochanging system work.
>
>You're not using the autochanging mechanism, but you're still going to be
>having to deal with a lot of the problems with it. Like the leaf switch
>used to silence the thing while it's changing records going bad.
>
>Look underneath, but take a deep breath before you do so.
>--scott

It's a shame that the autochange mechanism is such a beast, because an
autochanger is definitely the safest way to play valuable vinyl. The
record itself has high spots around the label and rim, so the playing
surfaces never touch, and the stylus is always lowered properly onto
the lead-in. Handling is not reduced, unfortunately, and only one disc
in the stack gets the benefit od the correct tracing angle.

d

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Mike Rivers[_2_]

February 21st 17, 05:11 PM

On 2/21/2017 11:27 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> You're not using the autochanging mechanism, but you're still going to be
> having to deal with a lot of the problems with it. Like the leaf switch
> used to silence the thing while it's changing records going bad.

How difficult could it be simply to bypass the muting switch? I have a
Dual 1019 (and a couple of 78 styli to go with it) that I don't use as a
changer, and have never had a problem like the original poster
describes. But if I do, I'll just rewire the cartridge connector
directly to the phono preamp.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[email protected]

February 21st 17, 05:24 PM

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:55:47 PM UTC-5, Brassplyer wrote:
> On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:24:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> > Have you tried it with as different (pre) amplifier?
>
>
> Not mine, asking on behalf of someone else. I've suggested that.

I remember Dad getting a Dual (auto) turntable to fix decades back. His electronic workshop was in my bedroom. I was a kid and after the part arrived from Germany?, he fixed it. But, me being a kid, liked to see how fast I could spin the table. I suddenly reversed the direction, then heard something crack!! I went and hid!! :)

I didn't tell him what I had done until decades later!!

Assume a "wired" cartridge, not a no-brainer P mount.

Jack

Scott Dorsey

February 21st 17, 05:33 PM

In article >, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>On 2/21/2017 11:27 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> You're not using the autochanging mechanism, but you're still going to be
>> having to deal with a lot of the problems with it. Like the leaf switch
>> used to silence the thing while it's changing records going bad.
>
>How difficult could it be simply to bypass the muting switch? I have a
>Dual 1019 (and a couple of 78 styli to go with it) that I don't use as a
>changer, and have never had a problem like the original poster
>describes. But if I do, I'll just rewire the cartridge connector
>directly to the phono preamp.

It's easy. Also it's very easy just to run new head wires and bypass the
head shell contacts (and if you have a 1019 you have had the head shell
contacts go bad at least once by now).

It's just that you need to identify the problem and do it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Chuck[_12_]

February 21st 17, 06:27 PM

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:24:17 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:55:47 PM UTC-5, Brassplyer wrote:
>> On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:24:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>>
>> > Have you tried it with as different (pre) amplifier?
>>
>>
>> Not mine, asking on behalf of someone else. I've suggested that.
>
>I remember Dad getting a Dual (auto) turntable to fix decades back. His electronic workshop was in my bedroom. I was a kid and after the part arrived from Germany?, he fixed it. But, me being a kid, liked to see how fast I could spin the table. I suddenly reversed the direction, then heard something crack!! I went and hid!! :)
>
>I didn't tell him what I had done until decades later!!
>
>Assume a "wired" cartridge, not a no-brainer P mount.
>
>Jack

If you have access to a VOM, you can check the wiring and mute switch
for shorts. If not shorted, you can check the cartridge resistance.
Both channels should be the same. Also, a common Dual problem was the
actual tone arm wiring would go bad. Ortofon had a line of cheap
cartridges under a different name (Dynavector?) that their windings
would open up or went to a higher resistance on one or both channels.
I used to be the turntable repair person at B.B. and I've worked on
1000s of Duals. When parts were available, they weren't that bad to
repair.

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[email protected]

February 21st 17, 06:48 PM

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 1:27:13 PM UTC-5, Chuck wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:24:17 -0800 (PST), wrote:
>
> >On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:55:47 PM UTC-5, Brassplyer wrote:
> >> On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:24:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> >>
> >> > Have you tried it with as different (pre) amplifier?
> >>
> >>
> >> Not mine, asking on behalf of someone else. I've suggested that.
> >
> >I remember Dad getting a Dual (auto) turntable to fix decades back. His electronic workshop was in my bedroom. I was a kid and after the part arrived from Germany?, he fixed it. But, me being a kid, liked to see how fast I could spin the table. I suddenly reversed the direction, then heard something crack!! I went and hid!! :)
> >
> >I didn't tell him what I had done until decades later!!
> >
> >Assume a "wired" cartridge, not a no-brainer P mount.
> >
> >Jack
>
> If you have access to a VOM, you can check the wiring and mute switch
> for shorts. If not shorted, you can check the cartridge resistance.
> Both channels should be the same. Also, a common Dual problem was the
> actual tone arm wiring would go bad. Ortofon had a line of cheap
> cartridges under a different name (Dynavector?) that their windings
> would open up or went to a higher resistance on one or both channels.
> I used to be the turntable repair person at B.B. and I've worked on
> 1000s of Duals. When parts were available, they weren't that bad to
> repair.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

B.B.?

If the person has knowledge of electronics, that is what I would do, just check (cartridge) resistance at RCA plugs or jacks. Don't think we have enough information to be able to troubleshoot this one, Chuck.

Jack

Chuck[_12_]

February 21st 17, 08:02 PM

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:48:11 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 1:27:13 PM UTC-5, Chuck wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:24:17 -0800 (PST), wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 9:55:47 PM UTC-5, Brassplyer wrote:
>> >> On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:24:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Have you tried it with as different (pre) amplifier?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Not mine, asking on behalf of someone else. I've suggested that.
>> >
>> >I remember Dad getting a Dual (auto) turntable to fix decades back. His electronic workshop was in my bedroom. I was a kid and after the part arrived from Germany?, he fixed it. But, me being a kid, liked to see how fast I could spin the table. I suddenly reversed the direction, then heard something crack!! I went and hid!! :)
>> >
>> >I didn't tell him what I had done until decades later!!
>> >
>> >Assume a "wired" cartridge, not a no-brainer P mount.
>> >
>> >Jack
>>
>> If you have access to a VOM, you can check the wiring and mute switch
>> for shorts. If not shorted, you can check the cartridge resistance.
>> Both channels should be the same. Also, a common Dual problem was the
>> actual tone arm wiring would go bad. Ortofon had a line of cheap
>> cartridges under a different name (Dynavector?) that their windings
>> would open up or went to a higher resistance on one or both channels.
>> I used to be the turntable repair person at B.B. and I've worked on
>> 1000s of Duals. When parts were available, they weren't that bad to
>> repair.
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>B.B.?
>
>If the person has knowledge of electronics, that is what I would do, just check (cartridge) resistance at RCA plugs or jacks. Don't think we have enough information to be able to troubleshoot this one, Chuck.
>
>Jack

Best Buy's headquarters.

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[email protected]

February 21st 17, 08:50 PM

to the OP

did the system ever work or is this a first time setup?
is the turntable connected to a PHONE input? (not an aux input)

is it mono or stereo, if stereo are both sides low?

lets start with those questions

m

[email protected]

February 21st 17, 09:08 PM

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 3:50:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> to the OP
>
> did the system ever work or is this a first time setup?
> is the turntable connected to a PHONE input? (not an aux input)

Believe that is a PHONOgraph input, RCA, you know.
Now, say the common terminal lifted, then you would just hear the difference between stereo channels.

Chuck, had a very old Edison disc, clay, felt like slate, about 1/4" thick. Played in on modern phonograph. Heard nothing. Decided to rewire cartridge. Then I heard a weak barbershop quartet singing!!

Jack

>
> is it mono or stereo, if stereo are both sides low?
>
>
> lets start with those questions
>
> m

[email protected]

February 22nd 17, 01:22 AM

Don Pearce wrote: - show quoted text -
"It's a shame that the autochange mechanism is such a beast, because an
autochanger is definitely the safest way to play valuable vinyl. The
record itself has high spots around the label and rim, so the playing
surfaces never touch, and the stylus is always lowered properly onto
the lead-in. Handling is not reduced, unfortunately, and only one disc
in the stack gets the benefit od the correct tracing angle.

d "

Effective isolation via the high spots assumes
a perfectly flat vinyl record, a rare circumstance
even brand new from the store.

Also, I have witnessed many times when playing
multiple discs, subsequent discs drop onto the
first one and slide - against their downstairs
neighbor - momentarily before catching up to
speed. So there are advantages and disadvantages
to both auto and manual-style record playback.

[email protected]

February 22nd 17, 05:53 PM

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 8:23:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Don Pearce wrote: - show quoted text -
> "It's a shame that the autochange mechanism is such a beast, because an
> autochanger is definitely the safest way to play valuable vinyl. The
> record itself has high spots around the label and rim, so the playing
> surfaces never touch, and the stylus is always lowered properly onto
> the lead-in. Handling is not reduced, unfortunately, and only one disc
> in the stack gets the benefit od the correct tracing angle.
>
> d "
>
> Effective isolation via the high spots assumes
> a perfectly flat vinyl record, a rare circumstance
> even brand new from the store.
>
> Also, I have witnessed many times when playing
> multiple discs, subsequent discs drop onto the
> first one and slide - against their downstairs
> neighbor - momentarily before catching up to
> speed. So there are advantages and disadvantages
> to both auto and manual-style record playback.

And Don may question, thickness of vinyl records, like 180-200 gram. Thicker than commercial pressings, but considered audiophile, so what does proper tracking actually mean?

Also, I though most players, not auto-stacking, would at least place the tonearm of the record.

Jack

Don Pearce[_3_]

February 22nd 17, 06:00 PM

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 8:23:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> Don Pearce wrote: - show quoted text -
>> "It's a shame that the autochange mechanism is such a beast, because an
>> autochanger is definitely the safest way to play valuable vinyl. The
>> record itself has high spots around the label and rim, so the playing
>> surfaces never touch, and the stylus is always lowered properly onto
>> the lead-in. Handling is not reduced, unfortunately, and only one disc
>> in the stack gets the benefit od the correct tracing angle.
>>
>> d "
>>
>> Effective isolation via the high spots assumes
>> a perfectly flat vinyl record, a rare circumstance
>> even brand new from the store.
>>
>> Also, I have witnessed many times when playing
>> multiple discs, subsequent discs drop onto the
>> first one and slide - against their downstairs
>> neighbor - momentarily before catching up to
>> speed. So there are advantages and disadvantages
>> to both auto and manual-style record playback.
>
>And Don may question, thickness of vinyl records, like 180-200 gram. Thicker than commercial pressings, but considered audiophile, so what does proper tracking actually mean?
>
>Also, I though most players, not auto-stacking, would at least place the tonearm of the record.
>
>Jack

I'm talking about the vertical angle of the stylus matching that of
the cutter head. Only one record in a stack can achieve that.
Obviously as you get further from the optimum, distortion necessarily
increases.

The main advantage of the thicker record is not its thickness. It is
the fact that knowing it to be audiophile quality, the press operator
waits a little while for the plastic to cool a bit before lifting it
off. This prevents the thumb-and-finger twist warp present in
virtually every normal LP.

d

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Scott Dorsey

February 22nd 17, 06:17 PM

Don Pearce > wrote:
>
>I'm talking about the vertical angle of the stylus matching that of
>the cutter head. Only one record in a stack can achieve that.
>Obviously as you get further from the optimum, distortion necessarily
>increases.

Specifically, the stereo width changes pretty dramatically with small changes
in VTA. If everything is calibrated properly, cutting VTA is 15 degrees and
so playback VTA should be as well.

>The main advantage of the thicker record is not its thickness. It is
>the fact that knowing it to be audiophile quality, the press operator
>waits a little while for the plastic to cool a bit before lifting it
>off. This prevents the thumb-and-finger twist warp present in
>virtually every normal LP.

The slower cycle times for thicker pressings both have good and bad effects
in manufacture. The added mass for damping on playback is probably a small
win.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

geoff

February 22nd 17, 07:06 PM

On 23/02/2017 6:53 AM, wrote:
advantages to both auto and
>> manual-style record playback.
>
> And Don may question, thickness of vinyl records, like 180-200 gram.
> Thicker than commercial pressings, but considered audiophile, so what
> does proper tracking actually mean?
>
> Also, I though most players, not auto-stacking, would at least place
> the tonearm of the record.

The difference in vertical tracing angle with differingthickness between
'normal' and heavier pressings is insignificant in comparison to the
thickness of a whole extra (or more) disc.

geoff

Scott Dorsey

February 22nd 17, 07:12 PM

geoff > wrote:
>The difference in vertical tracing angle with differingthickness between
>'normal' and heavier pressings is insignificant in comparison to the
>thickness of a whole extra (or more) disc.

True enough. It should be pointed out also that a lot of older pressings
weren't actually cut at 15 degrees on the mark so you may find that you need
to raise and lower the tonearm bearing point (which is adjustable on quality
tonearms) while listening to the separation or watching on the phase scope.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[email protected]

February 22nd 17, 08:14 PM

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 1:00:27 PM UTC-5, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 8:23:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> >> Don Pearce wrote: - show quoted text -
> >> "It's a shame that the autochange mechanism is such a beast, because an
> >> autochanger is definitely the safest way to play valuable vinyl. The
> >> record itself has high spots around the label and rim, so the playing
> >> surfaces never touch, and the stylus is always lowered properly onto
> >> the lead-in. Handling is not reduced, unfortunately, and only one disc
> >> in the stack gets the benefit od the correct tracing angle.
> >>
> >> d "
> >>
> >> Effective isolation via the high spots assumes
> >> a perfectly flat vinyl record, a rare circumstance
> >> even brand new from the store.
> >>
> >> Also, I have witnessed many times when playing
> >> multiple discs, subsequent discs drop onto the
> >> first one and slide - against their downstairs
> >> neighbor - momentarily before catching up to
> >> speed. So there are advantages and disadvantages
> >> to both auto and manual-style record playback.
> >
> >And Don may question, thickness of vinyl records, like 180-200 gram. Thicker than commercial pressings, but considered audiophile, so what does proper tracking actually mean?
> >
> >Also, I though most players, not auto-stacking, would at least place the tonearm of the record.
> >
> >Jack
>
> I'm talking about the vertical angle of the stylus matching that of
> the cutter head. Only one record in a stack can achieve that.
> Obviously as you get further from the optimum, distortion necessarily
> increases.
>
> The main advantage of the thicker record is not its thickness. It is
> the fact that knowing it to be audiophile quality, the press operator
> waits a little while for the plastic to cool a bit before lifting it
> off. This prevents the thumb-and-finger twist warp present in
> virtually every normal LP.
>
> d
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

You remember when RCA, maybe early 70's, issued on THIN vinyl for LPs, Dynaflex, I think? Like potato chips. No, I just seen you mention vertical tracking angle and thought I'd toss those THICK vinyl records in - is it at all critical?

Jack

Don Pearce[_3_]

February 22nd 17, 08:20 PM

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:14:58 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 1:00:27 PM UTC-5, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 8:23:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> >> Don Pearce wrote: - show quoted text -
>> >> "It's a shame that the autochange mechanism is such a beast, because an
>> >> autochanger is definitely the safest way to play valuable vinyl. The
>> >> record itself has high spots around the label and rim, so the playing
>> >> surfaces never touch, and the stylus is always lowered properly onto
>> >> the lead-in. Handling is not reduced, unfortunately, and only one disc
>> >> in the stack gets the benefit od the correct tracing angle.
>> >>
>> >> d "
>> >>
>> >> Effective isolation via the high spots assumes
>> >> a perfectly flat vinyl record, a rare circumstance
>> >> even brand new from the store.
>> >>
>> >> Also, I have witnessed many times when playing
>> >> multiple discs, subsequent discs drop onto the
>> >> first one and slide - against their downstairs
>> >> neighbor - momentarily before catching up to
>> >> speed. So there are advantages and disadvantages
>> >> to both auto and manual-style record playback.
>> >
>> >And Don may question, thickness of vinyl records, like 180-200 gram. Thicker than commercial pressings, but considered audiophile, so what does proper tracking actually mean?
>> >
>> >Also, I though most players, not auto-stacking, would at least place the tonearm of the record.
>> >
>> >Jack
>>
>> I'm talking about the vertical angle of the stylus matching that of
>> the cutter head. Only one record in a stack can achieve that.
>> Obviously as you get further from the optimum, distortion necessarily
>> increases.
>>
>> The main advantage of the thicker record is not its thickness. It is
>> the fact that knowing it to be audiophile quality, the press operator
>> waits a little while for the plastic to cool a bit before lifting it
>> off. This prevents the thumb-and-finger twist warp present in
>> virtually every normal LP.
>>
>> d
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>You remember when RCA, maybe early 70's, issued on THIN vinyl for LPs, Dynaflex, I think? Like potato chips. No, I just seen you mention vertical tracking angle and thought I'd toss those THICK vinyl records in - is it at all critical?
>
>Jack

No, record thickness is not at all critical. But as has been said, the
height of the stack certainly is.

d

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geoff

February 22nd 17, 09:55 PM

On 23/02/2017 8:12 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
> geoff > wrote:
>> The difference in vertical tracing angle with differingthickness between
>> 'normal' and heavier pressings is insignificant in comparison to the
>> thickness of a whole extra (or more) disc.
> True enough. It should be pointed out also that a lot of older pressings
> weren't actually cut at 15 degrees on the mark so you may find that you need
> to raise and lower the tonearm bearing point (which is adjustable on quality
> tonearms) while listening to the separation or watching on the phase scope.
> --scott

Naa - just get the CD ;-)

geoff

[email protected]

February 22nd 17, 11:23 PM

Don Pearce wrote: "the
height of the stack certainly is. "

BwahahaHAHAAAH! When I was young
I'd intentionally load 7-8 of the mother****ers
on the changer, just to see what would
happen! The warning label clearly stated
"Maximum 5(FIVE) Records On Changer".

The first one would drop and play okay, then
the second one, then the third would drop,
the tone arm would start to play it, and the
next one would drop on top of the one
playing - BANG-SKREEETCH!!!!! I'd lift it
back up into queue, and when it was time
to play record number 4, the entire
remaining stack would drop, and the
stack of discs was so friggn high, the
underside of the cartridge would make
contact on a warped surface, and I'd
miss half a verse or chorus every
half second or so. Fun times with a
good ol reckit changer!

geoff

February 23rd 17, 03:18 AM

John Williamson

February 23rd 17, 09:13 AM

On 23/02/2017 03:18, geoff wrote:

> I wonder how many of those magasine-page flexible discs that came out
> you could stack before they started to sound less-than-perfect ?
>
> geoff
>
IME, one. To get them to play at all was an achievement, as they were so
slippery on the blank side, you needed a felt turntable mat or a heavy
washer over the label art to get enough grip for them not to slow down
when being played, even with a light tracking pressure on the cartridge.
Using the average ceramic cartridge, they just sat there and refused to
rotate.

They didn't work with the autochange mechanism, either, as they were too
thin.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

geoff

February 23rd 17, 10:21 AM

On 23/02/2017 10:13 PM, John Williamson wrote:
> On 23/02/2017 03:18, geoff wrote:
>
>> I wonder how many of those magasine-page flexible discs that came out
>> you could stack before they started to sound less-than-perfect ?
>>
>> geoff
>>
> IME, one. To get them to play at all was an achievement, as they were so
> slippery on the blank side, you needed a felt turntable mat or a heavy
> washer over the label art to get enough grip for them not to slow down
> when being played, even with a light tracking pressure on the cartridge.
> Using the average ceramic cartridge, they just sat there and refused to
> rotate.
>
> They didn't work with the autochange mechanism, either, as they were too
> thin.
>

A sticky bogie fixed them sufficiently to the TT mat !

geoff

None

February 23rd 17, 12:42 PM

< thekma @ thekma.thekma.thekma.thekma.com > wrote in message
...
> mother****ers

The next time you whine about F-bombs, remember what you posted here
about your own mother.

FCKWAFA. AAH. AOCARSBDF.

david gourley[_2_]

February 23rd 17, 02:40 PM

geoff > said...news:y8mdnbbMg5E3KjPFnZ2dnUU7-
:

> On 23/02/2017 10:13 PM, John Williamson wrote:
>> On 23/02/2017 03:18, geoff wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder how many of those magasine-page flexible discs that came out
>>> you could stack before they started to sound less-than-perfect ?
>>>
>>> geoff
>>>
>> IME, one. To get them to play at all was an achievement, as they were so
>> slippery on the blank side, you needed a felt turntable mat or a heavy
>> washer over the label art to get enough grip for them not to slow down
>> when being played, even with a light tracking pressure on the cartridge.
>> Using the average ceramic cartridge, they just sat there and refused to
>> rotate.
>>
>> They didn't work with the autochange mechanism, either, as they were too
>> thin.
>>
>
>
> A sticky bogie fixed them sufficiently to the TT mat !
>
> geoff
>

I used to tape them to a 45, which I could usually get close enough to the
center to play them ok. I had a great one from Mad Magazine once. Good
times.

david

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[email protected]

February 23rd 17, 04:07 PM

> >>
> >>> I wonder how many of those magasine-page flexible discs that came out
> >>> you could stack before they started to sound less-than-perfect ?
> >>>
> >>> geoff
> >>>
> >> IME, one. To get them to play at all was an achievement, as they were so
> >> slippery on the blank side, you needed a felt turntable mat or a heavy
> >> washer over the label art to get enough grip for them not to slow down
> >> when being played, even with a light tracking pressure on the cartridge.
> >> Using the average ceramic cartridge, they just sat there and refused to
> >> rotate.
> >>
> >> They didn't work with the autochange mechanism, either, as they were too
> >> thin.
> >>
> >
> >
> > A sticky bogie fixed them sufficiently to the TT mat !
> >
> > geoff
> >
>
> I used to tape them to a 45, which I could usually get close enough to the
> center to play them ok. I had a great one from Mad Magazine once. Good
> times.
>

Audio trivia question for extra points.....

How did one of those magazine records play an important role in the investigation of the Kennedy assassination?

Mike Rivers[_2_]

February 23rd 17, 04:09 PM

On 2/23/2017 11:07 AM, wrote:
> Audio trivia question for extra points.....
> How did one of those magazine records play an important role in the investigation of the Kennedy assassination?

Someone shot a single bullet through the hole?

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[email protected]

February 23rd 17, 05:23 PM

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 10:18:24 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
> On 23/02/2017 8:12 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > geoff > wrote:
> >> The difference in vertical tracing angle with differingthickness between
> >> 'normal' and heavier pressings is insignificant in comparison to the
> >> thickness of a whole extra (or more) disc.
> > True enough. It should be pointed out also that a lot of older pressings
> > weren't actually cut at 15 degrees on the mark so you may find that you need
> > to raise and lower the tonearm bearing point (which is adjustable on quality
> > tonearms) while listening to the separation or watching on the phase scope.
> > --scott
>
> I wonder how many of those magasine-page flexible discs that came out
> you could stack before they started to sound less-than-perfect ?
>
> geoff

Readers Digest had a floppy, square disc, promoting Big Band series, sounded pretty impressive!

Jack

[email protected]

February 23rd 17, 05:25 PM

On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 11:09:41 AM UTC-5, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 2/23/2017 11:07 AM, wrote:
> > Audio trivia question for extra points.....
> > How did one of those magazine records play an important role in the investigation of the Kennedy assassination?
>
> Someone shot a single bullet through the hole?
>
> --
>
> For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

That's where they got the idea of a bullet hole describing cutout records, along with saw kerf!

Jack

[email protected]

February 23rd 17, 06:19 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHWZLv3iuo8

at circa 2:17

or Google "Steve Barber Kennnedy" (to remove the baseball player of the same name)
or Google "hold everything secure"

this has got to be one of the most bizarre episodes in the history of audio forensics.

m

Nil[_2_]

February 23rd 17, 06:47 PM

On 23 Feb 2017, John Williamson >
wrote in rec.audio.pro:

> IME, one. To get them to play at all was an achievement, as they
> were so slippery on the blank side, you needed a felt turntable
> mat or a heavy washer over the label art to get enough grip for
> them not to slow down when being played, even with a light
> tracking pressure on the cartridge. Using the average ceramic
> cartridge, they just sat there and refused to rotate.

I'm digitalizing a whole stack of those things right now - they're the
"Sound Pages" that came in issues of Guitar Player Magazine" in the
'80s. The records are printed with the suggestion that you place the
flexi-disk on a phonograph record and to place a coin on the label area
if it slips. I'm not finding them to slip so I don't bother with the
coin. My only problem is that some of them are small enough that they
trigger the reject mechanism of the turntable before the record is
finished.

geoff

February 23rd 17, 07:13 PM

On 24/02/2017 5:09 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 2/23/2017 11:07 AM, wrote:
>> Audio trivia question for extra points.....
>> How did one of those magazine records play an important role in the
>> investigation of the Kennedy assassination?
>
> Someone shot a single bullet through the hole?
>

..... with a cheap-and-nasty $25 Italian mail-order rifle that couldn't
put more than 1 in 10 bullets in a square foot at 100ft range in lab
conditions.

Would have to have been an 12" LP size - not a 7"

geoff

Scott Dorsey

February 23rd 17, 07:24 PM

geoff > wrote:
>On 24/02/2017 5:09 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
>> On 2/23/2017 11:07 AM, wrote:
>>> Audio trivia question for extra points.....
>>> How did one of those magazine records play an important role in the
>>> investigation of the Kennedy assassination?
>>
>> Someone shot a single bullet through the hole?
>
>.... with a cheap-and-nasty $25 Italian mail-order rifle that couldn't
>put more than 1 in 10 bullets in a square foot at 100ft range in lab
>conditions.
>
>Would have to have been an 12" LP size - not a 7"

I don't know about this, but I do know that Reflex magazine had a Dead
Kennedys soundsheet.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."