plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?

[John Abnarthy]

I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 12/6/2016 10:15 AM, John Abnarthy wrote:
> I'm wondering if
> there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
> orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
> with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
> studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

Nothing will make it sound like a studio recording, but one thing you
might try is to play the recording back through a speaker (or pair of
speakers) in a reasonably good sounding room, and set up a spaced pair
of omni mics and record the sound in the room. Think Capitol Studio's
famous echo chambers.

Or if you just want to buy something, assuming you've already played
with some reverb plugins, you might take a look at Zynaptiq's
Adaptaverb. I saw a demo of it at the last AES show and it lets you play
with a lot of stuff that ordinary reverbs don't. They offer a free 30
day trial, though you need an iLok account (you can sign up for one even
if you don't have an iLok dongle or any software that uses it).

http://www.zynaptiq.com/adaptiverb/



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

John Abnarthy > wrote:
>I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
>there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
>there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
>orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
>with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
>studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't sound
like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's
not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole
mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one.

When you listen in a concert hall, each of the instruments has their own
radiation pattern and so the sound coming out of them is striking the hall
differently. Each instrument produces different sounds in different directions;
the piano is producing a lot of low end out the bottom but all of the treble
is coming out of the top and directed to the side (which is part of why
moving to the short stick changes the tone so much). As the instrument
is moved around in space, that changes too.

All of that is summed down to make the sound that you hear.

With the synthesizer, there's only one sound coming out, not lots of different
ones, and all you can do is put that into a fake reverb algorithm that
emulates the room.... but the effect is very crude because it's only one sound
in all directions.

Current technology doesn't allow you to get synthesized orchestras that sound
very much like the real thing, but they are good enough for a demo to give to
the conductor of a real orchestra to demonstrate what you want it to sound
like. You can hire top notch orchestras in eastern Europe for quite reasonable
prices.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JackA]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 10:15:27 AM UTC-5, John Abnarthy wrote:
> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
> there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
> there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
> orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
> with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
> studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

Maybe add echo!!

Jack

[Nate Najar]

Scott,

That is one of the best explanations I have seen.

[geoff]

On 7/12/2016 4:15 a.m., John Abnarthy wrote:
> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
> there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering
> if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC
> mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI
> keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded
> in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

Any reverb plug-in and some eq maybe ? More sophisticated reverbs
have freq-dependant settings and built-in EQ that may offer potentially
better results than a simple one.

geoff

[geoff]

On 7/12/2016 4:48 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
> John Abnarthy > wrote:
> Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't
> sound
> like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's
> not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole
> mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one.

Who said synthesiser ? I assumed 'sampler' or sample-based orchestral
instrument like Garritan.

..... which can be quite impressie, but still hardly the 'real thing'.

And sophisticate convolution reverbs based on real spaces can be
fantastic on some sources, but huge individual tweaking of multiple
instances would be involved (taking huge computing power that may not
even be usable for real-time preview) to emulate spacial diversity of
the source instruments, if the source application allows them to be
realistically made as individual tracks in the first place.

Depends on the purpose of the excercise and expectations of the end result.

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff > wrote:
>On 7/12/2016 4:48 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> John Abnarthy > wrote:
>> Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't
>> sound
>> like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's
>> not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole
>> mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one.
>
>Who said synthesiser ? I assumed 'sampler' or sample-based orchestral
>instrument like Garritan.

That's a synthesizer. Even if it's not chopping the sample up to alter
the length of a note or anything and strictly playing back unaltered
samples. It's still playing back a scalar sound pressure rather than a
3-space representation of the sound field.

>And sophisticate convolution reverbs based on real spaces can be
>fantastic on some sources, but huge individual tweaking of multiple
>instances would be involved (taking huge computing power that may not
>even be usable for real-time preview) to emulate spacial diversity of
>the source instruments, if the source application allows them to be
>realistically made as individual tracks in the first place.

Computation is cheap; it's not unusual to see folks using sectional reverb
on fake orchestras at the minimum. But it's still limited to the fact that
you're starting only with a one-dimensional representation of the instrument.

Often it'll be done in layers with reverb added to the tracks put into the
stems and then the stems themselves re-reverbed.

>Depends on the purpose of the excercise and expectations of the end result.

Indeed.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nil[_2_]]

On 06 Dec 2016, John Abnarthy > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools
> out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm
> wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let
> me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made
> with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like
> it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or
> plug-in. Thanks.

I have a very old plugin that came with an early version of Cakewalk
Sonar. It's called "Cakewalk FX3 SoundStage". It's a room simulator, a
form of reverb, but what's cool about it is you can graphically design
your room and place your source and microphones within it. The effect
is surprisingly realistic.

I just looked around a little and it doesn't seem to be available any
longer. Also, it used the ancient DX interface which long ago lost out
in the marketplace in favor of VST.

Otherwise a good alternative might be a convolution reverb, which uses
recorded samples of room reverbs to digitally simulate various room and
mic characteristics. I use one called "Perfect Space" that, again, came
with my old version of Sonar. There are many others but I don't know
enough about them to recommend one.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

John Abnarthy wrote:
> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
> there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
> there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
> orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
> with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
> studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

Uhhh.... reverb? Maybe more than one reverb.

--
Les Cargill

[polymod]

"Nil" wrote in message ...

On 06 Dec 2016, John Abnarthy > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools
> out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm
> wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let
> me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made
> with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like
> it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or
> plug-in. Thanks.

I have a very old plugin that came with an early version of Cakewalk
Sonar. It's called "Cakewalk FX3 SoundStage". It's a room simulator, a
form of reverb, but what's cool about it is you can graphically design
your room and place your source and microphones within it. The effect
is surprisingly realistic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed....I still use it from time to time.

Poly

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Nate Najar > wrote:
>Scott,
>
>That is one of the best explanations I have seen.

Thank you. 25 years of repeating it over and over again to customers has
given me opportunities to refine it as time has passed.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

On 06-12-2016 16:15, John Abnarthy wrote:

> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
> there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
> there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
> orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
> with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
> studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

CoolEdit / Audition has/had a room emulation verb that is reasonably
credible IF you know how to position source and mics in the real world.
i don't know what the capabilities of the recent version are, but it is
likely that there still is a functioning demo in the download section on
adobe's website.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[James Price[_5_]]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:15:27 AM UTC-6, John Abnarthy wrote:
> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
> there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
> there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
> orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
> with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
> studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

No, but a good convolution reverb would probably help.

[[email protected]]

John Abnarthy:

I know of a plugin that emulates distance
micing - yet doesn't require a computer.
There might be at least two or three in
your home town.

[Neil[_9_]]

On 12/6/2016 10:48 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> John Abnarthy > wrote:
>> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
>> there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
>> there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
>> orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
>> with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
>> studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.
>
> Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't sound
> like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's
> not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole
> mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one.
>
> When you listen in a concert hall, each of the instruments has their own
> radiation pattern and so the sound coming out of them is striking the hall
> differently. Each instrument produces different sounds in different directions;
> the piano is producing a lot of low end out the bottom but all of the treble
> is coming out of the top and directed to the side (which is part of why
> moving to the short stick changes the tone so much). As the instrument
> is moved around in space, that changes too.
>
> All of that is summed down to make the sound that you hear.
>
> With the synthesizer, there's only one sound coming out, not lots of different
> ones, and all you can do is put that into a fake reverb algorithm that
> emulates the room.... but the effect is very crude because it's only one sound
> in all directions.
>
> Current technology doesn't allow you to get synthesized orchestras that sound
> very much like the real thing, but they are good enough for a demo to give to
> the conductor of a real orchestra to demonstrate what you want it to sound
> like. You can hire top notch orchestras in eastern Europe for quite reasonable
> prices.
> --scott
>
I generally agree with everything you've written, here. However, I would
like to expand on a couple of points.

"With the synthesizer, there's only one sound coming out, not lots of
different ones..."

IMO, that is too much of a generalization. Even classic basic synths of
the early Moog era were capable of generating multiple sounds, and how
those waveforms are processed is determined by the user. Many
current-day software synths typically have this capability for any
single 'instrument', and the electronic musician can easily build
'instruments' from multiple sources, be they individual waveforms or
..wav files, and in 2D or 3D space, so the complexity of the signal is
pretty much a non-issue.

Now for some nit-picking, I read the OP's question as meaning whether
his dry synth mix could be made to sound like it was mic'd. IOW, I agree
that to make any synth sound like a physical instrument would be a
challenge, but anyone capable of getting into the ballpark of that one
would be unlikely to ask such a question. ;-)

One thing that happens when a physical instrument is mic'd is that many
of the complexities of its sound are lost due to many factors, including
such things as the mic characteristics, limitations of mic positions,
all the 'back-end' electronics, etc., so a lot of subtleties are gone
anyway. Once it's recorded, it's perceptibly different than live.

If one gets the basic room reverb qualities worked out (not a simple
task in itself), then properly 'places' the 'instrument' in the mix
along with some resonances characteristic of the physical instrument,
one can achieve quite pleasing results (again, you're right about this
having to be done for each instrument).

It won't sound like a person playing a physical instrument, but more
because of the extremely complex nuances between instrument and player.
Even two players playing the identical instrument at the same location
in the room will be distinct, so there is a bit of latitude for
synthesis, but, this aspect would have to be addressed for each
instrument in the mix as well. ;-)

However, is the OP trying for that level of sophistication? I'm
skeptical. Perhaps some basic information about room acoustics is an
acceptable starting point.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_field_synthesis>

<http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.142.2233&rep=rep1&type=pdf>

Choose the tools that address some of these issues and go as far as one
needs to get a satisfactory result.


--
best regards,

Neil

[[email protected]]

John Abnarthy:

I know of a plugin that emulates distance
micing - yet doesn't require a computer.
There might be at least two or three in
your home town.


A large, reflective heavily-tiled public
restroom! ;)

[None]

< thekma @gmail.com> wrote in message
...
> A large, reflective heavily-tiled public restroom! ;)

So you like to spend your time in public restrooms. Do you also like
gladiator movies?

[Rasta Robert]

On 2016-12-06, John Abnarthy > wrote:
> I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
> there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if
> there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed
> orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard
> with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a
> studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks.

I knew I had come across some free VST plugins that seem to match
the capabilities you're asking for.

<http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/>

Proximity:

Several models can be combined:

Distance signal delay by speed of sound
Distance gain loss
Absorption of high-frequencies in air
Stereo width manipulation
Proximity effect of virtual microphone
Distance based early reflections

<http://www.experimentalscene.com/software/spatialverb/>

ES SpatialVerb:

A free plugin that uses raytracing to generate a realistic early
impulse response. You can control the size of the room, location
of two virtual source speakers and two destination microphones.
The late impulse response is governed by a Circulant Feedback
Delay Network (CFDN) which in contrast to many other reverb
filters has a very low amount of ringing. You can control the
FDN by setting feedback, cutoff and gain. You can adjust the
feedback and gain of the FDN so that it's response is a natural
progression from the early response of the room.