Audition 1.5 and Cool Edit 2.1 recording problems [Archive]

Rick Ruskin

August 24th 16, 08:38 AM

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:43:01 +1200, geoff >
wrote:

>On 24/08/2016 4:25 PM, Rick Ruskin wrote:
>> Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
>> ****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
>> 48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
>> tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
>> Any ideas whatmight be going on?
>>
>>
>
>
>Updated anything ? Maybe now that XP is no longer supported an
>application or driver update has broken something. Possibly an unrelated
>application or runtime library .
>
>geoff

Nope. No updates and this computer is not connected to anything other
than audio devices.

Don Pearce[_3_]

August 24th 16, 11:12 AM

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 04:25:20 +0000 (UTC), Rick Ruskin
> wrote:

>Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
>****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
>48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
>tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
>Any ideas whatmight be going on?
>

Check your sound card driver settings (I presume you are using ASIO).
It could be that your buffer size has been reduced (these things
happen) below the point where windows can keep up. That will cause
stalling. In general for recording you can make the buffer as big as
you like because latency is not an issue. If you are multitracking,
then it needs to be as low as you can make it without stalling.

Download a copy of DPCLAT. This will alert you to any actual machine
problems that are making latency higher than it should be. You may
have a new process going on that you aren't aware of.

d

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

polymod

August 24th 16, 11:37 AM

"Rick Ruskin" wrote in message
...

Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
Any ideas whatmight be going on?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Try a system restore from a time when it was working.

Poly

geoff

August 24th 16, 12:15 PM

On 24/08/2016 10:12 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 04:25:20 +0000 (UTC), Rick Ruskin
> > wrote:
>
>> Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
>> ****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
>> 48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
>> tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
>> Any ideas whatmight be going on?
>>
>
> Check your sound card driver settings (I presume you are using ASIO).

Check your application settings have not somehow reverted to Windows
Sound Mapper instead of the soundcard's ASIO or the direct Windows
'Classic' Driver.

geoff

James Perrett[_4_]

August 24th 16, 12:26 PM

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:12:57 +0100, Don Pearce > wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 04:25:20 +0000 (UTC), Rick Ruskin
> > wrote:
>
>> Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
>> ****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
>> 48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
>> tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
>> Any ideas whatmight be going on?
>>
>
> Check your sound card driver settings (I presume you are using ASIO).
> It could be that your buffer size has been reduced (these things
> happen) below the point where windows can keep up. That will cause
> stalling. In general for recording you can make the buffer as big as
> you like because latency is not an issue. If you are multitracking,
> then it needs to be as low as you can make it without stalling.
>

Audition 1.5 and before use the standard Windows MM drivers rather than
ASIO. How much processing power is Audition using when it is stumbling?
Could it be looking for a system device that isn't there? Is your hard
disk fragmented or dying? Have you tried recording at 16 bits or 32 bits
(CEP/Audition is very clunky with 24 bit files).

I had Cool Edit Pro record 16 tracks simultaneously on a 233MHz Pentium in
Windows 98 so it shouldn't need much processing power.

Oh - and one other thought... Have you tried any other software? Reaper
would be worth trying as it also comes with its own performance meter and
is possibly more efficient than Cool Edit/Audition.

Cheers,

James.

--
JRP Music - http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk

Nil[_2_]

August 24th 16, 01:50 PM

On 24 Aug 2016, geoff > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> Check your application settings have not somehow reverted to
> Windows Sound Mapper instead of the soundcard's ASIO or the direct
> Windows 'Classic' Driver.

This was going to be my suggestion, too.

Nil[_2_]

August 24th 16, 01:53 PM

On 24 Aug 2016, "James Perrett" > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> Oh - and one other thought... Have you tried any other software?
> Reaper would be worth trying as it also comes with its own
> performance meter and is possibly more efficient than Cool
> Edit/Audition.

I think Reaper is tons more efficient than Cool Edit, but they're
different sorts of tools. Reaper is best for tracking and multi-
tracking, Audition is best for surgical editing. They make a great
pair.

JackA

August 24th 16, 01:57 PM

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 6:37:48 AM UTC-4, polymod wrote:
> "Rick Ruskin" wrote in message
> ...
>
> Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
> ****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
> 48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
> tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
> Any ideas whatmight be going on?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Try a system restore from a time when it was working.
>
> Poly

Good suggestion!! While everyone was switching to XP, they'd brag about Restoration points. What they didn't know, Windows ME offered that feature. I enjoyed ME, but many had problems with it, generally, from the unstable software they loaded.

Jack

[email protected]

August 24th 16, 02:20 PM

I've
> > tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
> > Any ideas whatmight be going on?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >

can task manager tell you what it is busy with?

m

James Perrett[_4_]

August 25th 16, 12:44 PM

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 13:53:29 +0100, Nil >
wrote:

> On 24 Aug 2016, "James Perrett" > wrote in
> rec.audio.pro:
>
>> Oh - and one other thought... Have you tried any other software?
>> Reaper would be worth trying as it also comes with its own
>> performance meter and is possibly more efficient than Cool
>> Edit/Audition.
>
> I think Reaper is tons more efficient than Cool Edit, but they're
> different sorts of tools. Reaper is best for tracking and multi-
> tracking, Audition is best for surgical editing. They make a great
> pair.

Yes, they do make a good combination although I used to use the Multitrack
window in CEP/Audition before Adobe messed it up in version 2. I think
Rick is also talking about the multitrack view in his original query.

--
JRP Music - http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk

mcp6453[_2_]

August 25th 16, 01:31 PM

On 8/24/2016 12:25 AM, Rick Ruskin wrote:
> Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
> ****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
> 48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
> tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
> Any ideas whatmight be going on?
>
>

Check Device Manager to see if your hard drive has reverted to the PIO mode.

[email protected]

August 25th 16, 03:14 PM

> > Any ideas whatmight be going on?
> >
> >
>
> Check Device Manager to see if your hard drive has reverted to the PIO mode.

+1

HD normally uses Ultra DMA modes. If Windows detects errors it can switch the HD down to PIO modes.

DMA = Direct Memory Access = fast

PIO = programmed I/O mode which uses the CPU to move data = very slow.

PIO can be 10x slower compared to DMA.

Check the drive speed as follows:

Right Click My Computer / properties / hardware tab / device manager button expand + IDE ATA / ATAPI controllers / double click primary IDE / Advanced Settings tab:

Current Transfer mode = "Ultra DMA Mode x " x = 2 or 5.
If it says PIO, that is the slow mode.
Repeat for the Secondary IDE channel

JackA

August 25th 16, 03:58 PM

On Thursday, August 25, 2016 at 10:14:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Any ideas whatmight be going on?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Check Device Manager to see if your hard drive has reverted to the PIO mode.
>
> +1
>
> HD normally uses Ultra DMA modes. If Windows detects errors it can switch the HD down to PIO modes.
>
> DMA = Direct Memory Access = fast

When I got my Windows ME computer, I tried playing a DVD. Sadly, it was erratic, using Power DVD Software. I then went hunting, and enabled DMA. After that, DVD played nice and smooth!

Jack

>
> PIO = programmed I/O mode which uses the CPU to move data = very slow.
>
> PIO can be 10x slower compared to DMA.
>
> Check the drive speed as follows:
>
> Right Click My Computer / properties / hardware tab / device manager button expand + IDE ATA / ATAPI controllers / double click primary IDE / Advanced Settings tab:
>
> Current Transfer mode = "Ultra DMA Mode x " x = 2 or 5.
> If it says PIO, that is the slow mode.
> Repeat for the Secondary IDE channel

Nil[_2_]

August 25th 16, 06:15 PM

On 25 Aug 2016, "James Perrett" > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> Yes, they do make a good combination although I used to use the
> Multitrack window in CEP/Audition before Adobe messed it up in
> version 2. I think Rick is also talking about the multitrack view
> in his original query.

Oh, OK, I didn't catch that first time around. I absolutely cannot
stand Audition's multitrack view, so I probably subconsciously blinded
myself to the possibility.

Rick Ruskin

August 26th 16, 07:24 PM

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 04:25:20 +0000 (UTC), Rick Ruskin
> wrote:

>Out of nowhere these 2 ultra reliable programs will not record worth
>****. Both stumble and stall while tryhing to record. 16 tracks -
>48kHz/24 bit. used to be no problem. Now neither work @ 16bit. I've
>tweaked both Windows (XP Pro) and the p;rogram settings.
>Any ideas whatmight be going on?
>

Thanks for the info but none of your suggestions helped at all. To
top it off, my interfaces began to misbehave. Reloading drivers did
nothing to change matters. I re-installed XP and most but not all
problems went away. After a morning's worth of changing buffer
size/#'s, cache size, and telling Audition not to use the soundcard's
pointer information, everything started to work properly. I have no
idea if it was any one parameter or the combination but now that it's
working, I'm leaving well enough alone.
Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

geoff

August 27th 16, 02:37 AM

On 27/08/2016 6:24 AM, Rick Ruskin wrote:

>
> Thanks for the info but none of your suggestions helped at all. To
> top it off, my interfaces began to misbehave. Reloading drivers did
> nothing to change matters. I re-installed XP and most but not all
> problems went away. After a morning's worth of changing buffer
> size/#'s, cache size, and telling Audition not to use the soundcard's
> pointer information, everything started to work properly. I have no
> idea if it was any one parameter or the combination but now that it's
> working, I'm leaving well enough alone.
> Rick Ruskin
> Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA
> http://liondogmusic.com
>

I guess , hoping and assuming it does finally get remedied, it all
depends on what value you put on your time versus the alternative
approaches to the problem.

geoff

Rick Ruskin

August 27th 16, 04:12 AM

On Sat, 27 Aug 2016 13:37:29 +1200, geoff >
wrote:

>On 27/08/2016 6:24 AM, Rick Ruskin wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for the info but none of your suggestions helped at all. To
>> top it off, my interfaces began to misbehave. Reloading drivers did
>> nothing to change matters. I re-installed XP and most but not all
>> problems went away. After a morning's worth of changing buffer
>> size/#'s, cache size, and telling Audition not to use the soundcard's
>> pointer information, everything started to work properly. I have no
>> idea if it was any one parameter or the combination but now that it's
>> working, I'm leaving well enough alone.
>> Rick Ruskin
>> Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA
>> http://liondogmusic.com
>>
>
>
>I guess , hoping and assuming it does finally get remedied, it all
>depends on what value you put on your time versus the alternative
>approaches to the problem.
>
>geoff

Alternative approaches such as different software and/or hardware and
the time involved in setup, learnin,g curve, not to mention expense
were not at all appealing. Like I said, it has been a reliable system
for a very long time. If it stays that way, I see no need to change
anything.

geoff

August 27th 16, 04:32 AM

On 27/08/2016 3:12 PM, Rick Ruskin wrote:

>
> Alternative approaches such as different software and/or hardware and
> the time involved in setup, learnin,g curve, not to mention expense
> were not at all appealing. Like I said, it has been a reliable system
> for a very long time. If it stays that way, I see no need to change
> anything.
>

True, but presumably one does draw the line somewhere. Hope we can come
up with an idea before it gets to that point.

In the meantime there is also http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCDAW/

Pretty quiet there lately, but maybe worth a try ...

geoff

Rick Ruskin

August 27th 16, 04:53 AM

On Sat, 27 Aug 2016 15:32:42 +1200, geoff >
wrote:

>On 27/08/2016 3:12 PM, Rick Ruskin wrote:
>
>>
>> Alternative approaches such as different software and/or hardware and
>> the time involved in setup, learnin,g curve, not to mention expense
>> were not at all appealing. Like I said, it has been a reliable system
>> for a very long time. If it stays that way, I see no need to change
>> anything.
>>
>
>
>True, but presumably one does draw the line somewhere. Hope we can come
>up with an idea before it gets to that point.
>
>In the meantime there is also http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCDAW/
>

>
>Pretty quiet there lately, but maybe worth a try ...
>
>geoff

Now that it's all working, no line is needed. I'll draw one should a
similar situation arise.

Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

geoff

August 27th 16, 06:04 AM

On 27/08/2016 3:53 PM, Rick Ruskin wrote:

>
> Now that it's all working, no line is needed. I'll draw one should a
> similar situation arise.

Ooops - missed the bit where it is now working !

geoff

Mike Rivers[_2_]

August 27th 16, 12:31 PM

On 8/26/2016 2:24 PM, Rick Ruskin wrote:

> Thanks for the info but none of your suggestions helped at all. To
> top it off, my interfaces began to misbehave. Reloading drivers did
> nothing to change matters. I re-installed XP and most but not all
> problems went away. After a morning's worth of changing buffer
> size/#'s, cache size, and telling Audition not to use the soundcard's
> pointer information, everything started to work properly.

"Re-install Windows" used to be the #2 recommended remedy for audio
problems (after "Get the latest drivers"). I avoided doing that for
probably 15 years because I simply didn't know how a "restoration"
installation worked and nobody told me. I always thought that
"Re-install Windows" would wipe out all my accumulated software, or at
least change settings like fonts, colors, and directories. Then finally,
I bit the bullet, and everything went back to working just like it did
before flakiness started.

I still try to find other solutions first, but at least now I'm not
afraid of losing everything when I do a re-install. But, hey, when it
comes to computers, I always have something to be afraid of. Maybe the
installation CD won't play any more.

It's always something.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

John Williamson

August 27th 16, 12:38 PM

On 27/08/2016 12:31, Mike Rivers wrote:

> It's always something.
>
My worry with this unit is that the OS restore partition is on the same
piece of flash memory as everything else, soldered to the motherboard
and there's no obvious way to make a boot disk to run the restore if
Windows falls over due to a flash problem. Luckily, all the data is on a
removable card, so if the OS falls over, the data should be fairly safe.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Mike Rivers[_2_]

August 27th 16, 02:45 PM

On 8/27/2016 7:38 AM, John Williamson wrote:
> My worry with this unit is that the OS restore partition is on the same
> piece of flash memory as everything else, soldered to the motherboard
> and there's no obvious way to make a boot disk to run the restore if
> Windows falls over due to a flash problem.

What's that on? A phone or tablet? I don't think I've bought a new PC
since the days when they put the restoration data on a semi-hidden
partition on the internal hard drive. If you knew the secret handshake,
you could make a restoration CD from that, but then you had to remember
where you put it if you need it.

The other problem with "re-install Windows" is that you restore to the
version that was in effect at the time they built the computer. You
might have Windows XP before service packs. There's an unofficial
Windows XP Service Pack 4 (Google it) that has all of the updates since
Microsoft stopped issuing them. I've used that a couple of times since
my installer copy of XP is Service Pack 2.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

John Williamson

August 27th 16, 03:28 PM

On 27/08/2016 14:45, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 8/27/2016 7:38 AM, John Williamson wrote:
>> My worry with this unit is that the OS restore partition is on the same
>> piece of flash memory as everything else, soldered to the motherboard
>> and there's no obvious way to make a boot disk to run the restore if
>> Windows falls over due to a flash problem.
>
>
> What's that on? A phone or tablet? I don't think I've bought a new PC
> since the days when they put the restoration data on a semi-hidden
> partition on the internal hard drive. If you knew the secret handshake,
> you could make a restoration CD from that, but then you had to remember
> where you put it if you need it.
>
It's a dual format machine. It's a tablet with a snap on keyboard that
turns it into a small laptop. 32 gigabytes of storage on the board and
just under 200 gigabytes on the card. It does, however, run the same
version of Windows 10 as a laptop. It's even got a full size USB 3 port
to connect a sound interface to, if that's what's wanted, though as it's
only a few days old, I'm still working through its capabilities.

If I want a bigger screen, there's an HDMI output that will mirror the
screen to just about any digital TV.

It is, however, cheap enough to buy a spare as backup, and small enough
to carry in a large pocket. I reckon up to 8 tracks in real time, maybe
more, as long as there are not too many processor hungry effects in use.

> The other problem with "re-install Windows" is that you restore to the
> version that was in effect at the time they built the computer. You
> might have Windows XP before service packs. There's an unofficial
> Windows XP Service Pack 4 (Google it) that has all of the updates since
> Microsoft stopped issuing them. I've used that a couple of times since
> my installer copy of XP is Service Pack 2.
>
There are third party tools available which can include in a system
backup all you need to get back to a version identical to the one you
had when it was first working the way you wanted it to. Also, you can
mirror the system before and as soon as it's working after installing a
new piece of hardware, which gives you a painless way to revert too the
old system. I've known people do this, and at the first hint of trouble
they re-install from the mirror image, which takes an hour at most, as
all that's involved is copying the files from the install medium to the
hard drive.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Mike Rivers[_2_]

August 27th 16, 04:00 PM

On 8/27/2016 10:28 AM, John Williamson wrote:
> There are third party tools available which can include in a system
> backup all you need to get back to a version identical to the one you
> had when it was first working the way you wanted it to. Also, you can
> mirror the system before and as soon as it's working after installing a
> new piece of hardware, which gives you a painless way to revert too the
> old system.

Every couple of months, or when I remember to do it, I make a clone of
my working hard drive. Think if something happens that's not easy to fix
(like the hard drive failing) I can just drop in the clone and probably
not be very far behind. Problem is that I have 7 computers around here
that I use with varying degrees of regularity (and importance) so I
don't really have all of my bases covered.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

Rick Ruskin

August 27th 16, 06:01 PM

On Sat, 27 Aug 2016 11:00:42 -0400, Mike Rivers >
wrote:

>On 8/27/2016 10:28 AM, John Williamson wrote:
>> There are third party tools available which can include in a system
>> backup all you need to get back to a version identical to the one you
>> had when it was first working the way you wanted it to. Also, you can
>> mirror the system before and as soon as it's working after installing a
>> new piece of hardware, which gives you a painless way to revert too the
>> old system.
>
>Every couple of months, or when I remember to do it, I make a clone of
>my working hard drive. Think if something happens that's not easy to fix
>(like the hard drive failing) I can just drop in the clone and probably
>not be very far behind. Problem is that I have 7 computers around here
>that I use with varying degrees of regularity (and importance) so I
>don't really have all of my bases covered.

I have 4 internal drives. 1 for OS & programs, 1 for work, & 2 for
backup.

Scott Dorsey

August 27th 16, 06:53 PM

Rick Ruskin > wrote:
>
>I have 4 internal drives. 1 for OS & programs, 1 for work, & 2 for
>backup.

Disks are so cheap these days there's no reason not to do this. It's a good
idea to make a direct copy of your boot disk and keep it on the shelf so that
if anything happens to the boot drive you can just swap a new one in and go
without losing time in a session. You don't need to update it often like
you need to update your backups of the work disk, and if it's a direct copy
you can just pull the old drive out and drop the new drive in with no added
work.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Neil[_9_]

August 29th 16, 10:43 PM

On 8/27/2016 1:53 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Rick Ruskin > wrote:
>>
>> I have 4 internal drives. 1 for OS & programs, 1 for work, & 2 for
>> backup.
>
> Disks are so cheap these days there's no reason not to do this. It's a good
> idea to make a direct copy of your boot disk and keep it on the shelf so that
> if anything happens to the boot drive you can just swap a new one in and go
> without losing time in a session. You don't need to update it often like
> you need to update your backups of the work disk, and if it's a direct copy
> you can just pull the old drive out and drop the new drive in with no added
> work.
> --scott
>
If taking this approach, make sure that all of your app's reference
files are kept on one of the backup discs. Normally, some apps will
install their files in a sub-folder on the boot drive, and it could
cause the app to crash if the drive is swapped without a current state
of those files.

--
Best regards,

Neil

Frank Stearns

August 29th 16, 11:28 PM

Neil > writes:

>On 8/27/2016 1:53 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Rick Ruskin > wrote:
>>>
>>> I have 4 internal drives. 1 for OS & programs, 1 for work, & 2 for
>>> backup.
>>
>> Disks are so cheap these days there's no reason not to do this. It's a good
>> idea to make a direct copy of your boot disk and keep it on the shelf so that
>> if anything happens to the boot drive you can just swap a new one in and go
>> without losing time in a session. You don't need to update it often like
>> you need to update your backups of the work disk, and if it's a direct copy
>> you can just pull the old drive out and drop the new drive in with no added
>> work.
>> --scott
>>
>If taking this approach, make sure that all of your app's reference
>files are kept on one of the backup discs. Normally, some apps will
>install their files in a sub-folder on the boot drive, and it could
>cause the app to crash if the drive is swapped without a current state
>of those files.

Not to mention registry entries and settings.

Just to clarify what I think Scott was getting at by "direct copy", I take that to
mean "bit image". There's a UNIX command that will do this, but I don't think
there's any way on a windows box (and likely a Mac) to do a bit-image copy of a
drive that's currently "live" supporting an OS. (And I got so sick of proprietary
file format "backup utilities" that I stopped using them long, long ago).

The most solid way to do this is with a stand-alone disk cloner (which then,
typically, can also be used as a docking station).

I've got one with two SATA slots (supports both 3.5" or 2.5" drives). Load up a new
drive and the drive you want to clone; press a button and cloning begins -- no need
to have it connected to your computer. A 2 Tbyte drive will take several
hours to clone.

Then, for daily utility, I can change the mode of the thing, plug it in to a USB
port, and have a way to have two additional drives "live" with the system. I use one
made by Orico, there are others. I think it was around US$50.00. Cheap insurance.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

Scott Dorsey

August 30th 16, 02:27 PM

Frank Stearns > wrote:
>Just to clarify what I think Scott was getting at by "direct copy", I take that to
>mean "bit image". There's a UNIX command that will do this, but I don't think
>there's any way on a windows box (and likely a Mac) to do a bit-image copy of a
>drive that's currently "live" supporting an OS. (And I got so sick of proprietary
>file format "backup utilities" that I stopped using them long, long ago).

I do in fact mean a bit-for-bit copy of the disk. When someone says "bit image"
to me, it implies a file that is in a different filesystem which is an image of
the initial filesystem, rather than a disk-to-disk copy.

Permit me to recommend "Hiren's Boot CD." You boot off the CD and it brings
up a stripped-down linux kernel running in memory and a menu that allows you
to run a number of things including a disk imaging utility that is MUCH MUCH
faster than using dd to copy the disk by hand.

There are also folks who recommend Clonezilla and the commercial "Ghost"
programs.

>The most solid way to do this is with a stand-alone disk cloner (which then,
>typically, can also be used as a docking station).

Interestingly, using the standalone cloner is slower for me than using Hiren's
Boot CD. They sure are nice to have, though, since you can make backup
copies of audio files offline without blocking up your DAW or hard disk
recorder.

Everybody should have one, they are very handy gadgets.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Les Cargill[_4_]

August 30th 16, 06:40 PM

Frank Stearns wrote:
> Neil > writes:
>
>> On 8/27/2016 1:53 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Rick Ruskin > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have 4 internal drives. 1 for OS & programs, 1 for work, & 2 for
>>>> backup.
>>>
>>> Disks are so cheap these days there's no reason not to do this. It's a good
>>> idea to make a direct copy of your boot disk and keep it on the shelf so that
>>> if anything happens to the boot drive you can just swap a new one in and go
>>> without losing time in a session. You don't need to update it often like
>>> you need to update your backups of the work disk, and if it's a direct copy
>>> you can just pull the old drive out and drop the new drive in with no added
>>> work.
>>> --scott
>>>
>> If taking this approach, make sure that all of your app's reference
>> files are kept on one of the backup discs. Normally, some apps will
>> install their files in a sub-folder on the boot drive, and it could
>> cause the app to crash if the drive is swapped without a current state
>> of those files.
>
> Not to mention registry entries and settings.
>
> Just to clarify what I think Scott was getting at by "direct copy", I take that to
> mean "bit image". There's a UNIX command that will do this, but I don't think
> there's any way on a windows box (and likely a Mac) to do a bit-image copy of a
> drive that's currently "live" supporting an OS.

There is a port of "dd" for Windows out there. You can also look up how
to refer to the raw disk image[1] as a file path and just use that ( in
say, a 'C' program or copy utility if not the dd tool. )

[1] The Windows equivalent of say, /dev/sda or /dev/sda1

> (And I got so sick of proprietary
> file format "backup utilities" that I stopped using them long, long ago).
>
> The most solid way to do this is with a stand-alone disk cloner (which then,
> typically, can also be used as a docking station).
>

So if I needed to do this a lot, I'd put together a Beaglebone with a
USB drive and make some software that copies over the network. 'Course,
Windows' bizarre aversion to continuing to support SMB means you
probably need to do this with a custom transport.

> I've got one with two SATA slots (supports both 3.5" or 2.5" drives). Load up a new
> drive and the drive you want to clone; press a button and cloning begins -- no need
> to have it connected to your computer. A 2 Tbyte drive will take several
> hours to clone.
>
> Then, for daily utility, I can change the mode of the thing, plug it in to a USB
> port, and have a way to have two additional drives "live" with the system. I use one
> made by Orico, there are others. I think it was around US$50.00. Cheap insurance.
>

At some point, you begin to think about a NAS appliance. I do at least.

> Frank
> Mobile Audio
>
>

--
Les Cargill

Frank Stearns

September 1st 16, 02:23 AM

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

snips

>Permit me to recommend "Hiren's Boot CD." You boot off the CD and it brings
>up a stripped-down linux kernel running in memory and a menu that allows you
>to run a number of things including a disk imaging utility that is MUCH MUCH
>faster than using dd to copy the disk by hand.

Interesting. Also can run off a USB stick. Thanks for the ref.

Franks
Mobile Audio

--

Frank Stearns

September 1st 16, 02:44 AM

Les Cargill > writes:

snips

>At some point, you begin to think about a NAS appliance. I do at least.

I've got a pseudo NAS system. The security machine that monitors and records-on-
motion the security cams also has a big data drive hanging off of it and is on the
LAN. It's physically located in a protected space. Synctoy is used to periodically
update its images of the partitions of the two main working machines (office and
DAW) stored on that security machine's data drive.

While intended for crash recovery (which has never happened, knock on wood; I
pre-emptively replace system drives and some data drives every 12-18 months using
the cloner), it did work well when I upgraded a system where using the cloner wasn't
practical (spinner to SSD). I did a final update from the retiring system to the
partition images on the fake NAS, then brought the new system online.

I did the basic config on the new system, partitioned following my standard, then
used Synctoy to image the data back from the fake NAS drive to each empty partition.
Everything then took right off on the new system. Seamless, painless.

(The first and last time I tried a commercial migration program it was a complete
and utter disaster. Wound up having to completely reinstall the OS on the target
machine and start over by hand. Oy. Microsoft had some sort of migration utility
built in, IIRC, but in previewing what it was going to do I cancelled immediately.
Another huge mess in the making.)

YMMV.

Frank
Mobile Audio

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