Help with recording acoustic guitar

[[email protected]]

Would any of you esteemed audio engineers have tips for recording acoustic guitar directly to iPhone? I'm using a zoom iq5 in the m/s setting to get stereo. I'm finding that I need to go off axis to get something as shown in the attached sound check video, but even with placement the only variable there's still 1001 possibilities. All help graciously appreciated!
http://youtu.be/AOHX02TNtKc

[John Williamson]

On 23/03/2016 17:24, wrote:
> Would any of you esteemed audio engineers have tips for recording acoustic guitar directly to iPhone? I'm using a zoom iq5 in the m/s setting to get stereo. I'm finding that I need to go off axis to get something as shown in the attached sound check video, but even with placement the only variable there's still 1001 possibilities. All help graciously appreciated!
> http://youtu.be/AOHX02TNtKc
>
Perseverance pays, you need to try various placements until you get the
sound you want.

Using two microphones, generally, aim one roughly at the soundhole from
a fairly close distance and the other more or less at the middle of the
frets from a reasonable distance, then mix down to mono to get the sound
you want. Hard to do with a single point pair as found on Zoom recorders

If you have a single point or mono microphone, then aiming it roughly at
the body from as far away as the room sound will let you is the way to
go, then just play with the positioning, bearing in mind that as the
frequency distribution on an acoustic guitar is not by any stretch of
the imagination uniformly distributed, a position that suits one piece
won't suit another. You may need to play with the equalisation to get
rid of as much fret and fingering noise as you can or feel it desirable
to. Too close, and you will either end up emphasising the hollow body
sound or the scratchy fret noises. Too far, and the room sound will blur
the notes.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[[email protected]]

Thanks John, the first thing you said about perseverance is what I realize is the one thing that makes all the difference. You're ideas are all helpful pointers- many thanks. The guitar I just picked up is an incredible sounding instrument (finding the "one" took all the perseverance in the world as I've played hundreds over the multi year search to find this one). Now I want to do it justice. That may take a little more gear than a $90 zoom mic and an iPhone though:)

[John Williamson]

On 23/03/2016 18:40, wrote:
> Thanks John, the first thing you said about perseverance is what I realize is the one thing that makes all the difference. You're ideas are all helpful pointers- many thanks. The guitar I just picked up is an incredible sounding instrument (finding the "one" took all the perseverance in the world as I've played hundreds over the multi year search to find this one). Now I want to do it justice. That may take a little more gear than a $90 zoom mic and an iPhone though:)
>
Zoom mics are remarkably good for the price, and I've used one of their
H2 recorders to produce some very satisfying recordings of choirs and
orchestras in the past. Try using the 120 or 90 degree settings rather
than the mid/ side setting, aiming one side at the sound hole, and the
other at the fret board.

It should even be possible with care to get a decent balance between
vocals and guitar from a single performer with your set up.

It will, though, be a lot easier to get a good result if you invest the
money in something like the Zoom H4 or R16 (For the phantom power on the
secondary inputs) and a couple of Rode or similar microphones, which, as
you have invested a lot of time and money finding the right guitar
shouldn't be too much of a wrench. About 400 bucks or less, but giving
you much more versatility. It's probably too early for you to consider
using different mic types for the soundboard and frets....

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/23/2016 2:40 PM, wrote:
> Thanks John, the first thing you said about perseverance is what I
> realize is the one thing that makes all the difference.

> The guitar I just picked up is
> an incredible sounding instrument Now I want to do it justice. That may
> take a little more gear than a $90 zoom mic and an iPhone though:)

Your phone and Zoom mic are hardly the ultimate setup for recording your
guitar, but you can learn a lot from it. Here are a couple of suggestions:

- Rig up a stand that lets you put the mic wherever you want it and
keep it in a stable position while you make some trial recordings in
different positions relative to your guitar. There are "clips" for the
various size iPhones (some of these clamps are adjustable) that allow
you to attach the phone to a mic stand or a camera tripod. Get a mic
stand with a boom to go with your iPhone clip and you'll have a good set
of learning tools.

- Set the mic in the M-S mode so you're recording the mid and side mics
on individual channels. Forget about the side channel for a while and
experiment with the mic position when you're listening to just the
single mono (cardioid, I think) mic. Oh, and turn off the automatic gain
and limiter. You'll want to learn how to set the record level properly
on your way to becoming a recording engineer.




--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[[email protected]]

Oh, and turn off the automatic gain
> and limiter. You'll want to learn how to set the record level properly
> on your way to becoming a recording engineer.
>


+1 re turning off the AGC / limiter

the other important thing not mentioned is omni vs cardiod.

Are the zoom mics omni or cardiod?

Are the iPhone mics omni or cardiod.

Omni vs cardiod (or uni) is one of the BIGGEST audible differences between mics that you will ever encounter.

Omni = omnidirectional meaning picks up sounds from all directions
Cardiod or uni = unidirectional meaning picks up sounds from mostly one direction.

Mark

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
> wrote:
>Would any of you esteemed audio engineers have tips for recording acoustic =
>guitar directly to iPhone? I'm using a zoom iq5 in the m/s setting to get =
>stereo. I'm finding that I need to go off axis to get something as shown in=
> the attached sound check video, but even with placement the only variable =
>there's still 1001 possibilities. All help graciously appreciated!=20
>http://youtu.be/AOHX02TNtKc

1. Figure out what you want it to sound like.

2. Figure out where you need to put the mike and what kind of room you need
to make it sound like that.

Of these two, believe it or not the first one is the hardest. A lot of
solo guitar recordings are very closely miked to where you can hear the
fingers on the strings. Others are very far back in a concert hall.
Figure out first off the sound you want.

The farther away you are, the more important the room is, but even if you
are right up against the instrument and have the mike listening very closely,
the room is still important. Maybe you want a dry room, maybe you want a
room that is open and spacious. You almost certainly don't want a small
reflective room that sounds boxy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the advice! The question of what I want it to sound like is easy for me to answer, because I know what it sounds like (to me) when in playing. My wish is to share THAT perspective with a listener. Not sure if anyone checked out my short YouTube clip I included in the op, but the key missing ingredient in that sample is twofold- the sense of wood moving against my gut and the air moving around my head- clearly sensed when playing- clearly absent in the recording. I guess the other thing I notice is the exaggerated transient from the attack of the notes that in real life is more integrated with the bloom of each note.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/24/2016 10:09 AM, wrote:
> Thanks for all the advice! The question of what I want it to sound
> like is easy for me to answer, because I know what it sounds like (to
> me) when in playing. My wish is to share THAT perspective with a
> listener.

Well, then, put an omni mic or two up by your ear or ears. That's not a
joke. It's a recognized technique for recording acoustic guitar as the
player hears it. To use what you presently have, put your recorder up by
your right ear, pointed downward toward the upper side of the guitar.

> Not sure if anyone checked out my short YouTube clip I
> included in the op, but the key missing ingredient in that sample is
> twofold- the sense of wood moving against my gut and the air moving
> around my head- clearly sensed when playing- clearly absent in the
> recording.

I'm not sure that loudspeakers are capable of reproducing that, at least
not in a normal playback situation. You might be able to capture the
head sound with a binaural mic setup (essentially mics where your ears
are) and play it back through headphones, but I don't know about the
wood moving against your gut. You might need a speaker built into a belt
buckle in order to get that. With the frequency range of an acoustic
guitar, it would have to be painfully loud to move your gut at a
reasonable listening distance.

> I guess the other thing I notice is the exaggerated
> transient from the attack of the notes that in real life is more
> integrated with the bloom of each note.

That's a sign that you're too close to the instrument and you're not
recording its full sound. A lot of people like that guitar sound because
it's so detailed, but if you want the sound of the note as it develops
after the attack, you'll need to pull back a couple of feet, maybe more,
and then the room sound will trouble you if it's not a good sounding room.



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Frank Stearns]

writes:

> Oh, and turn off the automatic gain
>> and limiter. You'll want to learn how to set the record level properly
>> on your way to becoming a recording engineer.
>>

>+1 re turning off the AGC / limiter

>the other important thing not mentioned is omni vs cardiod.

>Omni vs cardiod (or uni) is one of the BIGGEST audible differences between mics
that you will ever encounter.

>Omni = omnidirectional meaning picks up sounds from all directions
>Cardiod or uni = unidirectional meaning picks up sounds from mostly one direction.

And, all other things being equal, the omni will typically have better response --
smoother top end, extended low end. Of course, this likely breaks down with really
cheap omnis -- a more expensive cardioide might well be better.

However, if the room will let you, certainly try omni(s), just to get a handle on
the tonal differences.

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:24:21 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Would any of you esteemed audio engineers have tips for recording acoustic guitar directly to iPhone? I'm using a zoom iq5 in the m/s setting to get stereo. I'm finding that I need to go off axis to get something as shown in the attached sound check video, but even with placement the only variable there's still 1001 possibilities. All help graciously appreciated!
>http://youtu.be/AOHX02TNtKc

Does the guitar sound good? If it does then record the guitar - I mean
the whole guitar. You will hear advice to record the sound hole, the
12th fret, the strap button - you name it. Ignore it all. If the room
is not great, deaden it a little - bedding like duvets is a really
good absorber. The put the mics about six feet away in front of you.
That is the only way you are going to record perfect acoustic balance.

You will need a reasonably quiet room for this.

Have a look at this for one of the finest acoustic recordings (OK and
performances) I have ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfFbuT3I6A

d

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[[email protected]]

Don, that recording is amazing- and on YouTube even! Any inside scoop on signal chain/gear used? How much of that is simply that room?

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 12:02:41 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Don, that recording is amazing- and on YouTube even! Any inside scoop on signal chain/gear used? How much of that is simply that room?

No idea about signal chain, but I am going to say it doesn't matter.
It was recorded as clean as possible with no compression -
unfortunately Youtube did some damage in that department.

As for the room - it looks like it should be pretty horrid - a mass of
slap echo, and John placed as badly as possible right in the centre.
All I can say is that the recordist knew the room a great deal better
than me.

But the tone - that came from backing away from the guitar and - as I
said - recording the whole thing, not just bits of it.

d

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[[email protected]]

Got it! I'm going to try it in my living room which is actually a very nice live space about 24x16 with 12 foot ceilings and lots of wood everywhere. I'll see what I get. By biggest concern is that the self noise of the iq5 relative to the source (my guitar) decreasing in volume the further it gets away.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 13:18:26 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Got it! I'm going to try it in my living room which is actually a very nice live space about 24x16 with 12 foot ceilings and lots of wood everywhere. I'll see what I get. By biggest concern is that the self noise of the iq5 relative to the source (my guitar) decreasing in volume the further it gets away.

Self noise of mics is not often a problem, and these days noisy
pre-amps really aren't either. Acoustic guitars are actually
surprisingly loud too. I don't think you will have a problem.

d

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[JackA]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:24:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Would any of you esteemed audio engineers have tips for recording acoustic guitar directly to iPhone? I'm using a zoom iq5 in the m/s setting to get stereo. I'm finding that I need to go off axis to get something as shown in the attached sound check video, but even with placement the only variable there's still 1001 possibilities. All help graciously appreciated!
> http://youtu.be/AOHX02TNtKc

Not bad, but lacks the acoustics of the acoustic guitar. I mean, I want to hear it as I'm right in front of the guitar, some of that steel string sound and capture the wholeness (low end) of the body of the guiatr.

Just my opinion.

Jack

[JackA]

On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 1:32:07 PM UTC-4, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:24:21 -0700 (PDT),
> wrote:
>
> >Would any of you esteemed audio engineers have tips for recording acoustic guitar directly to iPhone? I'm using a zoom iq5 in the m/s setting to get stereo. I'm finding that I need to go off axis to get something as shown in the attached sound check video, but even with placement the only variable there's still 1001 possibilities. All help graciously appreciated!
> >http://youtu.be/AOHX02TNtKc
>
> Does the guitar sound good? If it does then record the guitar - I mean
> the whole guitar. You will hear advice to record the sound hole, the
> 12th fret, the strap button - you name it. Ignore it all. If the room
> is not great, deaden it a little - bedding like duvets is a really
> good absorber. The put the mics about six feet away in front of you.
> That is the only way you are going to record perfect acoustic balance.
>
> You will need a reasonably quiet room for this.
>
> Have a look at this for one of the finest acoustic recordings (OK and
> performances) I have ever seen.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfFbuT3I6A

Not bad, but too much room acoustics. Would work well in a movie, perhaps, but not a studio recording.

Jack
>
> d
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
> wrote:
>Thanks for all the advice! The question of what I want it to sound like is =
>easy for me to answer, because I know what it sounds like (to me) when in p=
>laying. My wish is to share THAT perspective with a listener.

Well, try putting the microphone up near your head, then. I've often done
that with a couple baffled omnis, maybe had to pull them back a little bit
but just using the player's listening position as the starting point.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."