snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music

[David]

Hi there....

It's been a lifelong battle trying to blend snare drums into mixes. It
seems it always jumps out of the rest of the music and dominates
everything else. It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything
else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its
power.

Has anybody else experienced this? I always end up leaving the snare
louder because it gives the mix a more solid impact but then the mix
suffers because everything else is much softer. I've compressed the
snare so that it can sit in the mix at a lower level and still have
impact but it's not working.

One way I've managed to overcome this problem is to send all drums to
a stereo compressor, with the snare nice and loud, and compress the
buss by about 3-4 or 5db. This tucks the snare into the rest of the
drums and makes the kit sound more like 1 instrument as opposed to a
bunch of seperated drum elements. After I've done this compression,
the remaining instruments in the mix don't feel right and need more
compression. I send these off to other subs and give similar gain
reduction to that of the drums. If I don't compress remaining
instruments, the power is gone and only the drums sound good. By the
time I am done, about 3 subgroups are going and things sound the way I
like them. 3 subgoups contain every track in the mix and I've grouped
things together nicely. At the end of all that, the snare still has
the power I want it to have but it doesn't stick out above the rest of
the music.

Now did I go all around the world just to achieve some snare control?
Did I start to chase my tail somewhere along those steps? Should I be
just leaving everything to the master buss and just applying 1
compressor there to tame the excited snare? Is it better to end up
with a nicely balanced master without having used stereo 2-buss
compression? I feel like although I've gone around the world to
balance things I kinda did it the better way, as opposed to letting 1
compressor do all the hard work in one go.

Are a lot of you grouping things and compressing subs? Do you find
that it gives you more tranparent results than doing 1 hit of
compression on the 2-buss? Do any of you compress subs and then
compress the 2 mix?

Please share your experiences with compressing stems of instruments
and the 2-mix.

thanks in advance

David

[Altasrecrd]

> (David)

>It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything
>else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its
>power.

Stop turning it down 4 db? :) yuck yuck!

But seriously folks....

1. Listen very carefully: Don't record bad drummers. They will make *you* look
bad.

2. Save up for a nice compressor.

3. Register to vote.

4. Love your fellow earthlings.

5. Don't forget to floss.

6. Time for me to go to bed.

































"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
- Hermann Goering

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"David" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi there....
>
> It's been a lifelong battle trying to blend snare drums into mixes. It
> seems it always jumps out of the rest of the music and dominates
> everything else. It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything
> else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its
> power.

I'm guessing you could use some EQ on the snare. It's usually the midrange
that's too prominent in the snare but if you turn it down so that the mids
aren't too loud then the Fletcher-Munson effect comes into play (which is
why you are losing "power").. Try using a "smiley curve" EQ plot on the
snare (boost the low end and the extreme highs) and see if that works. Some
people cut the mids but I think the boost sounds better. This should allow
you to turn it's volume down without it losing it's "power".

[WillStG]

> (David)
>It's been a lifelong battle trying to blend snare drums into mixes. It
>seems it always jumps out of the rest of the music and dominates
>everything else. It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything
>else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its
>power.

You could try mixing the uncompressed snare with a compressed snare sound.
Mult the snare into 2 channels of your console or use a buss or aux to send the
snare out to a compressor and bring it back on another channel, balance the two
and you have the best of both sounds, the transient attacks of the uncompressed
snare with the solid base of the compressed snare.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Wayne]

(David) wrote in message >...
> Hi there....
>
> It's been a lifelong battle trying to blend snare drums into mixes. It
> seems it always jumps out of the rest of the music and dominates
> everything else. It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything
> else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its
> power.
>
> Has anybody else experienced this? I always end up leaving the snare
> louder because it gives the mix a more solid impact but then the mix
> suffers because everything else is much softer. I've compressed the
> snare so that it can sit in the mix at a lower level and still have
> impact but it's not working.
>
> One way I've managed to overcome this problem is to send all drums to
> a stereo compressor, with the snare nice and loud, and compress the
> buss by about 3-4 or 5db. This tucks the snare into the rest of the
> drums and makes the kit sound more like 1 instrument as opposed to a
> bunch of seperated drum elements. After I've done this compression,
> the remaining instruments in the mix don't feel right and need more
> compression. I send these off to other subs and give similar gain
> reduction to that of the drums. If I don't compress remaining
> instruments, the power is gone and only the drums sound good. By the
> time I am done, about 3 subgroups are going and things sound the way I
> like them. 3 subgoups contain every track in the mix and I've grouped
> things together nicely. At the end of all that, the snare still has
> the power I want it to have but it doesn't stick out above the rest of
> the music.
>
> Now did I go all around the world just to achieve some snare control?
> Did I start to chase my tail somewhere along those steps? Should I be
> just leaving everything to the master buss and just applying 1
> compressor there to tame the excited snare? Is it better to end up
> with a nicely balanced master without having used stereo 2-buss
> compression? I feel like although I've gone around the world to
> balance things I kinda did it the better way, as opposed to letting 1
> compressor do all the hard work in one go.
>
> Are a lot of you grouping things and compressing subs? Do you find
> that it gives you more tranparent results than doing 1 hit of
> compression on the 2-buss? Do any of you compress subs and then
> compress the 2 mix?
>
> Please share your experiences with compressing stems of instruments
> and the 2-mix.
>
> thanks in advance
>
> David


If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
If this method works for you consistently, why screw it up!

Wayne

[EggHd]

<< I always end up leaving the snare
louder because it gives the mix a more solid impact but then the mix
suffers because everything else is much softer. >>

Is this in the control room and when you listen somewhere else?

If the snare is too loud and you think it's making everything not sound right,
what kind of "impact" of the mix are you really getting?



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[ar3a]

> One way I've managed to overcome this problem is to send all drums to
> a stereo compressor, with the snare nice and loud, and compress the
> buss by about 3-4 or 5db. This tucks the snare into the rest of the
> drums and makes the kit sound more like 1 instrument as opposed to a
> bunch of seperated drum elements. After I've done this compression,
> the remaining instruments in the mix don't feel right and need more
> compression. I send these off to other subs and give similar gain
> reduction to that of the drums. If I don't compress remaining
> instruments, the power is gone and only the drums sound good. By the
> time I am done, about 3 subgroups are going and things sound the way I
> like them. 3 subgoups contain every track in the mix and I've grouped
> things together nicely. At the end of all that, the snare still has
> the power I want it to have but it doesn't stick out above the rest of
> the music.

If it sounds right, it IS right. Seriously, whatever you can do to make it
sound as intended is the right way. If you hadn't been able to fix it, I
would have advised you to just let the snare "take one for the team" and
bring it down in the mix...while you experiment with possible solutions.
But it sounds like you've got the problem solved, so I don't advise looking
any further, as over tweaking usually has you come full circle into a whole
new mess. Just my $0.02

[Mister Hankey]

On 22 Oct 2003 09:54:14 GMT, (Altasrecrd)
wrote:

>> (David)
>
>>It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything
>>else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its
>>power.
>
> Stop turning it down 4 db? :) yuck yuck!
>
> But seriously folks....
>
>1. Listen very carefully: Don't record bad drummers. They will make *you* look
>bad.
>
>2. Save up for a nice compressor.
>
>3. Register to vote.
>
>4. Love your fellow earthlings.
>
>5. Don't forget to floss.
>
>6. Time for me to go to bed.

And don't forget to brush behind your teeth.

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"David" > wrote in message
om...
> (EggHd) wrote in message
>...
>
> I think the method I explained solved the problem but I cannot believe
> how amazing the advice about the "fletcher munson" effect really is!
> Rick you have opened my eyes to a whole new ball game. I never really
> thought about doing this kind of eqing on individual tracks. I've
> always done mild cuts and surgical dips here and there to get my snare
> sound.

I read about it in an article called "How To Mix A Pop Song From Scratch".
Many people have "claimed" to be the author and have posted it on their
website but here's one I think may be correct:
http://www.audiomelody.com/Tutorials/MixingStep3.htm. As much as I've tried
to "pick apart" mixes from others that I liked I would have never figured
the snare had any really, really lows or highs from listening to the mix. In
fact, listening to the mixes it sounded just the opposite, in the way you EQ
things to stay out of the way of other tracks to keep them from "using" up
the energy frequencies those other instruments need (especially the
overcrowded low bass range). If anything I'd always rolled off a little bass
before. But after reading this article and trying it I realized the trick
was boosting REALLY on the far ends. That's when it dawned on me that it was
the Fletcher-Munson curve which explained perfectly why it sounded good loud
but lacked power at lower volumes. That's the textbook definition of the
Fletcher-Munson effect.

> I think that Ricks and Wills methods would work fantastic
> together to achieve a killer snare that drives the mix but doesn't
> overpower it. I think Wills trick is called the NYC trick or something
> right? I could use the NYC and Fletcher Curve EQ together! Should I do
> the fletcher eq on the mult of the snare (compressed track) or the
> uneffected snare track? It would sound silly to give the smile to both
> the mult and original. I still want the original sound in there
> generating the natural frequencies that the mic picked up.

I think the only way to know is to try both and see which sounds best. Each
song may be different. But most times I've seen the "NYC Compression"
mentioned (I've also heard it was started in Motown and is also called
Motown compression) they usually compress the crap out of the mult channel
and really boost the EQ on it. That would seem to make more sense because
boosting the EQ on the none compressed track (which is really adding to the
volume) is going to make it more "peaky" with a greater dynamic than it
already has which will certainly not help it "sit" in a mix. I could be
wrong. But I'm finding the less I do the better. Everything, unless done
specifically for an effect, is always degrading the signal in some way and
is a compromise at best that never sounds as good as getting it right
without the "fix".

>
> if I'm subconciously mixing in a fashion that creates a loudness
> button effect over my mix would I be better of not hyping the lows and
> highs so much in mixing so that mastering can generate the smile eq? I
> really do like that sound on certain records but I just don't know
> where I should be doing the hyping.
>

I often do this as I'm often doing everything myself: writing, playing,
singing, recording...the whole thing..by myself. And the insecurity that's
present in most all performers makes you feel your stuff is never as good
(standing on it's own) as others (even though that's not true in the
slightest and the greatest composers of all sometimes suffer from this worse
than the rest).. This is often a problem of having no perspective or
"distance". How can you be unbiased about your own work? I always tend to
judge it as better or worse than it really is. I've shelved stuff I've
worked on out of disgust before because I thought it was horrible only to
find it by accident six months and be literally stunned at how good it is. I
don't have the discipline to "put it away" when I should. I have a lot of
health problems and only have short periods few and far between that I feel
good so I feel I must do all I can in that short time period which just
fries my senses. Actually when I compare my mixes to a lot of commercial
stuff, the commercial stuff sounds dull. Of course in reality mine are too
hyped due to the above causes. I'm beginning the see the wisdom of having a
producer.

[Kurt Ballou]

david,
there's a big article in this month's Tape Op with michael brauer
describing a submix compression technique similar to what you
describe. check it out.
kurt

[WillStG]

(David)
> I think that Ricks and Wills methods would work fantastic
>together to achieve a killer snare that drives the mix but doesn't
>overpower it. I think Wills trick is called the NYC trick or something
>right?

Well actually I thought _I_ invented it because I never actually learned
that from anyone. Before I ever worked in a big studio I was producing 8 track
plus midi productions for singer songwriters, and I had a solo guitar piece
that just needed something. I aux'ed the left and right mic channels into a
Valley People dynacomp compressor and brought that squashed mono guitar up in
the center, and as the mics were pretty wide apart (close mic'ed on the guitar
neck and body) it worked great. And I found it worked on a lot of things. Then
many years later I come here on RAP and find out I didn't invent anything after
all!

Oh well, all glory is fleeting anyway...


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

(WillStG)

> I aux'ed the left and right mic channels into a
>Valley People dynacomp compressor

Umm actually it was a Dynamite, the version mounted in a small plastic box.
That was a decent little compressor/deEsser I thought...

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits