Tape-Based, Need DAW Recommendation

[Blackburst]

I've been recording (multitrack) since 1971 (sheesh!), and longer if you count
experiments with 2-track recorders. 1971, Teac 2340. 1984, Fostex X-15. 1985
Yamaha MT-100. 1988, Fostex Model 80. 1992(?) Fostex ADAT XT. 1997, second
Fostex ADAT LX (for 16 tracks).

It's hard for an old tape dog to learn new tricks, but I'm looking for a
Digital Audio Workstation, with the following preferences. I need some
recommendations. (Please respond by email, if possible.)

Price preferably between $1000-2000. but I'll consider a bit more.
Minimum 16 tracks, but would love more.
Prefer ability to record all tracks at once, but not necessary.
Prefer lots of mic inputs, but only a few really necessary.
Guitar input with guitar efx much preferred.
At least 20 gig HD, more preferred.
ADAT in/out preferred for dubbing old stuff.
Onboard CDR recorder
At least 2 efx generators, prefer at least capability for 2-3 more, analog or
digital
At least 3 band EQ with one parametric on all tracks?
Dynamics on all tracks?
Stable, rugged.

And a question: I LOVE having all my discrete tracks, going back many years.
When a DAW allows you to back up a project, does that mean you can keep
16/24/36 discrete tracks in some way?

Thanks!

[LJM]

Check the Akai DPS24 out. A little more than what you want to spend but
you can find them on ebay for less than $2000 Good luck.
http://www.akaipro.com/us/dps24.html

Jim Maxon

Blackburst wrote:
> I've been recording (multitrack) since 1971 (sheesh!), and longer if you count
> experiments with 2-track recorders. 1971, Teac 2340. 1984, Fostex X-15. 1985
> Yamaha MT-100. 1988, Fostex Model 80. 1992(?) Fostex ADAT XT. 1997, second
> Fostex ADAT LX (for 16 tracks).
>
> It's hard for an old tape dog to learn new tricks, but I'm looking for a
> Digital Audio Workstation, with the following preferences. I need some
> recommendations. (Please respond by email, if possible.)
>
> Price preferably between $1000-2000. but I'll consider a bit more.
> Minimum 16 tracks, but would love more.
> Prefer ability to record all tracks at once, but not necessary.
> Prefer lots of mic inputs, but only a few really necessary.
> Guitar input with guitar efx much preferred.
> At least 20 gig HD, more preferred.
> ADAT in/out preferred for dubbing old stuff.
> Onboard CDR recorder
> At least 2 efx generators, prefer at least capability for 2-3 more, analog or
> digital
> At least 3 band EQ with one parametric on all tracks?
> Dynamics on all tracks?
> Stable, rugged.
>
> And a question: I LOVE having all my discrete tracks, going back many years.
> When a DAW allows you to back up a project, does that mean you can keep
> 16/24/36 discrete tracks in some way?
>
> Thanks!

[Aaron A]

If you're an old analog dog I can't think of a better system for you
than the now discontinued PARIS system. Mac or PC, and a group of us users
are working on new things like ASIO, WinXP drivers are completely functional
(I use them) and new plugs for the platform. There is also a Paris
Instructional Video in replication process for end users made by a group of
end users. We are self supporting, and always welcome new visitors. It does
not work on OSx yet, though I personally believe that the smart money for
horsepower is on the PC platform anyway. DX and VST plugs work, in addition
to the native (EDS) plugs that run on their own PCI cards DSP power. UAD-1
works with, and I use it also on my rig. Systems and parts can be had cheap
and advice and support is free from our group.
I recommend PARIS because it looks and acts like an analog console. If
you're new to DAW I think this will blow your mind how much like a
console/tape it sounds and reacts to running red on the meters.
If you want more info, drop in and see us at www.greatidea.com/paris and
have a look see into the newsgroup. We're always happy to have guests from
all walks and new artists to the platform we so love for it's sound.

Aaron Allen

"Blackburst" > wrote in message
...
> I've been recording (multitrack) since 1971 (sheesh!), and longer if you
count
> experiments with 2-track recorders. 1971, Teac 2340. 1984, Fostex X-15.
1985
> Yamaha MT-100. 1988, Fostex Model 80. 1992(?) Fostex ADAT XT. 1997, second
> Fostex ADAT LX (for 16 tracks).
>
> It's hard for an old tape dog to learn new tricks, but I'm looking for a
> Digital Audio Workstation, with the following preferences. I need some
> recommendations. (Please respond by email, if possible.)
>
> Price preferably between $1000-2000. but I'll consider a bit more.
> Minimum 16 tracks, but would love more.
> Prefer ability to record all tracks at once, but not necessary.
> Prefer lots of mic inputs, but only a few really necessary.
> Guitar input with guitar efx much preferred.
> At least 20 gig HD, more preferred.
> ADAT in/out preferred for dubbing old stuff.
> Onboard CDR recorder
> At least 2 efx generators, prefer at least capability for 2-3 more, analog
or
> digital
> At least 3 band EQ with one parametric on all tracks?
> Dynamics on all tracks?
> Stable, rugged.
>
> And a question: I LOVE having all my discrete tracks, going back many
years.
> When a DAW allows you to back up a project, does that mean you can keep
> 16/24/36 discrete tracks in some way?
>
> Thanks!

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If you're an old analog dog I can't think of a better system for you
> than the now discontinued PARIS system.

It may be a good system for you, but I wouldn't recommend a
discontinued system, particularly one that relies on its unique
hardware, to a new user. It just doesn't make sense.

I'd recommend a stand-alone hard disk recorder to someone who's
accustomed to using an analog recorder. Unless it's one of those
all-in-one recorder/mixers though, it will come in at more than
$2,000. Akai seems to be the closest to meeting all the requirements,
though I don't know what they run.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Aaron A]

Mike,
I understand, and to some degree concur with your assessment. I teetered on whether or not to post out more info on the first reply, and this one. I have no desire to be argumentative, the objective to me is helping Blackburst make a choice that suits him. I believe that is also your wish to be clear and I hope my deeper explanations in this post don't offend anyone. We can disagree and still get along fine with respect, and even learn something. I sure don't know it all.

I don't view the system as defunct simply because there are all kinds of user support for it (free) within the community, the ability to find parts/systems at stupidly low prices, a repair facility available (thesoniq.com), and still a level of *official* software support (www.intdevices.com). There is also room for track count/DSP effects growth within the system, unlike a stand alone. There are also current drivers and new effects (www.myparispro.com) being developed along with a user video. This platform is far from dead and the majority of new user hassles will come from configuration host computer set up and maintenance, IMO. I think current support from the group far exceeds any that EMU ever gave, based upon their actions of the past and how they handled situations in the public eye. That's not to say there weren't good ppl at EMU, but they were mostly hog tied by the corporate idiots.

I made the recommendation based on:
1.. Price: Used systems, stupid cheap. I mean -stupid- cheap these days.
2.. Track minimum: 16 per card, expandable to 128 real time tracks. You can do native tracks, but I don't really dig 'em, they sound different and create hassles IMO.
3.. Ability to record to all 16 tracks at once and I/O options: Track record ability = number of input you have, all expandable.
4.. Onboard CDr burner and HDD Size: easily adapted on host system
5.. Onboard EQ: How's 4 realtime lo pass/lo cut/hi pass/hi cut/mid pass totally sweepable with Q selectable per band grab ya? This is per channel, always available in addition to DSP EQ plugs and Direct X / VST plugs you can use per channel. You're not going to hurt for EQ options on this system.
6.. Onboard FX. On card DSP happens only two places that I know of currently available .... PT or Paris. No stand alone that I'm aware will give him this, unless it's one of those cheapy all in one units. There is of course the option for native VST/DX, if that suits his needs. But you can't monitor those plugs while tracking without latency issues. I can tell you this for absolute sure though... DX/VST plugs don't get close to sounding like the Paris DSP ones. I also admit to being heavily biased towards what sounds best to me, even if it means a workaround or two. Oh, and 8 auxes per submix, stereo or mono. You can patch external FX here as well as using the onboard DSP ones.
7.. Onboard dynamics: Up to 16 comps per 16 channel submix, though I prefer the UAD personally. Paris comps aren't quite my cup of tea though certainly usable. But once you learn how to structure the gain in Paris to your advantage you'll probably quit using the comps for limiting purposes anyway. Very much like slamming a piece of 2"/16track.

The other issue with stand alone recorders is that they require a console (and FX boxes) of some sort which effects the sound greatly.... and costs greatly for quality. Unless we go into the cheapo stand alone types again. I'm referring to the Alesis/Mackie/Soundscape/Radar types here. I'll spare you more evangalisms, but I don't know of anyone that has done a real 'sit down at the console' kind of comparison and not come away thinking that a DAW just isn't supposed to sound and react like Paris does.
I agree that you tell the truth the Paris system does indeed rely on it's unique hardware, so does a stand alone unit or PT for that matter. :) I think we both initially missed addressing the guitar input, however. I don't know of anything that would do that with effects and not sound horrid. I'd be more prone to say that if this is a must have, get something like a POD for that requirement. There are other ways of doing this with a native system (VST plugs, a fast CPU and ASIO) but there is a pretty good sized hassle/cost factor involved and computer investment~resale value is a huge loss game. The POD will at least retain some resale.
Even given I just covered I am realistic about certain limitations that bother me like the inability to have native VSTi or DXi, not too stellar onboard verbs, useless midi, high hassle surround mixing and a fixed latency between cards. 96k? Forget it, not happening natively, though it's something that can be worked around. All these things can be worked around -if you're aware of them-, but you're right that they could make for real hassles to a new user. Thus the free public support I am so vocal about. If you have a problem chances are extremely high that one of us has seen and dealt with it that would be happy to pass along the ins and outs of dealing. That's why I wrapped with an invitation to visit the group because I believe they speak for themselves just watching how they act together. There will always be gotcha's with any system change, but questions and answers are free in the Paris group, just like here, that may save him a bundle and make his ears happy.
Ah well.. back to work here, break's over.

Respectfully,
Aaron Allen


"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message news:znr1067138228k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > If you're an old analog dog I can't think of a better system for you
> > than the now discontinued PARIS system.
>
> It may be a good system for you, but I wouldn't recommend a
> discontinued system, particularly one that relies on its unique
> hardware, to a new user. It just doesn't make sense.
>
> I'd recommend a stand-alone hard disk recorder to someone who's
> accustomed to using an analog recorder. Unless it's one of those
> all-in-one recorder/mixers though, it will come in at more than
> $2,000. Akai seems to be the closest to meeting all the requirements,
> though I don't know what they run.
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I understand, and to some degree concur with your assessment. I =
> teetered on whether or not to post out more info on the first reply, and =
> this one. I have no desire to be argumentative, the objective to me is =
> helping Blackburst make a choice that suits him. I believe that is also =
> your wish to be clear and I hope my deeper explanations in this post =
> don't offend anyone. We can disagree and still get along fine with =
> respect, and even learn something. I sure don't know it all.=20
>
> I don't view the system as defunct simply because there are all =
> kinds of user support for it (free) within the community, the ability to =
> find parts/systems at stupidly low prices, a repair facility available =
> (thesoniq.com), and still a level of *official* software support =
> (www.intdevices.com).

My short advice was based on the fact that he's a novice and he'll
have to buy something second-hand, find the pieces he needs, find the
latest software and drivers, and probably doesn't have anyone any
nearer than his computer to help him out. I just don't think this is a
good way to get started if he wants to be productive any time soon.

If he was your next door neighbor, I'd say go for it.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )