OT? Old vhs-style cassettes

[John]

Hey all,

This is marginally OT, but considering that it is a technical question, and not
a political discussion, I suppose it is closer to on-topic than most...
Anyway, I stumbled upon a couple of old vhs style tapes in the basment of a
building that is being remodled. They are not VHS nor Beta. The cassettes are
larger than a standard VHS tape, and heavier. They seem to be built rather
ruggedly also. The label on the tapes says "Memorex U60". At first glance, I
thought they may be some kind of film loop cartridge--I could see what I
thought was a film leader, but upon opening the metal door on the front, it
does indeed contain magnetic tape. What I thought was a leader is just some
sort of plastic strip perhaps used to clean the tape before it hits the heads?

I searched Google, and even eBay for any reference to this style of tape, but
all I could find were references to VHS, Beta, film loops, and old old reel to
reel video decks. Does anyone know what the format for these is called, or
what kind of player one would use to view them?


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[Les Cargill]

John wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> This is marginally OT, but considering that it is a technical question, and not
> a political discussion, I suppose it is closer to on-topic than most...
> Anyway, I stumbled upon a couple of old vhs style tapes in the basment of a
> building that is being remodled. They are not VHS nor Beta. The cassettes are
> larger than a standard VHS tape, and heavier. They seem to be built rather
> ruggedly also. The label on the tapes says "Memorex U60". At first glance, I
> thought they may be some kind of film loop cartridge--I could see what I
> thought was a film leader, but upon opening the metal door on the front, it
> does indeed contain magnetic tape. What I thought was a leader is just some
> sort of plastic strip perhaps used to clean the tape before it hits the heads?
>
> I searched Google, and even eBay for any reference to this style of tape, but
> all I could find were references to VHS, Beta, film loops, and old old reel to
> reel video decks. Does anyone know what the format for these is called, or
> what kind of player one would use to view them?
>
> -John Vice
> www.summertimestudios.com

I'm guessing they are 3/4" UMatic cartidges.

--
Les Cargill

[John]

>From: Les Cargill

>I'm guessing they are 3/4" UMatic cartidges.

think you hit the nail on the head there Les. I did a search on eBay for
umatic, and the pics look just like what I have here. A military surplus store
near me used to have an old umatic deck for $20. I totally forgot about that
format. I think I'll check em out tomorrow and see if it's still there.

Thanks much!
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[nmm]

On Tue, Oct 21, 2003 9:16 AM, John > wrote:
> searched Google, and even eBay for any reference to this style of tape,
but
>all I could find were references to VHS, Beta, film loops, and old old
reel to
>reel video decks. Does anyone know what the format for these is called,
or
>what kind of player one would use to view them?
>

They could be 3/4" Video , most likely. A format that never hit consumer
grade machines. Mostly used for industrial, and broadcast.
3/4" was also used as a mastering format for Compact Disks .. I think with
a PCM convertor, but am not sure. I think the sony machine was called a
"Umatic 1660"

before that video was broadcast from 1" video machines (Sony Ampex) and
before that 2" video machines ( Ampex)

You might not want to play these tapes in any quality video deck. Unless
it;s some unedited reverse angel Zupruter film, that really needs to be
seen. Video tapes die after about 10 or 15 years. They shed the metal
particles on the mylar and mess up the heads of machines.




---------------------------------------------------------
"You Teach A Child To Read, And He Or Her Will Be Able To Pass A Literacy
Test"
- George W Bush - Townsend Tn . Feb 21rst -2001
---------------------------------------------------------

[Blackburst]

This sounds very much like 3/4" U-Matic video cassettes.

This was Sony's first attempt at a home video format. Big, bulky, expensive,
limited to 60 minutes (large cassette) or 20 minutes (mini cassette). A staple
for many years at small TV stations and cable access studios, with video
quality only marginally better than VHS. In about 1977, Sony introduced the
longer running BetaMax, but JVC kicked their butts marketing-wise with VHS.

There are still lots of old (mostly Sony) 3/4" machines out there. If you want
to check the tapes, try your local cable studio or college TV studio. (You can
buy old Sony 5000 series machines on ebay, but they can be very unreliable and
"eat tapes".)

[William Sommerwerck]

> This sounds very much like 3/4" U-Matic video cassettes.

> This was Sony's first attempt at a home video format. Big, bulky, expensive,
> limited to 60 minutes (large cassette) or 20 minutes (mini cassette). A staple
> for many years at small TV stations and cable access studios, with video
> quality only marginally better than VHS.

U-matic was a semi-professional format. It was never marketed to consumers
(though wealthy people, such as Hugh Hefner, owned U-matic machines).

I've never seen a U-matic tape that I _knew_ was U-matic tape, but it would have
to be of very poor quality to be only marginally better than VHS.

[John]

>They could be 3/4" Video , most likely. A format that never hit consumer
>grade machines. Mostly used for industrial, and broadcast.
> 3/4" was also used as a mastering format for Compact Disks .. I think with
>a PCM convertor, but am not sure. I think the sony machine was called a
>"Umatic 1660"
>
>before that video was broadcast from 1" video machines (Sony Ampex) and
>before that 2" video machines ( Ampex)
>
>You might not want to play these tapes in any quality video deck. Unless
>it;s some unedited reverse angel Zupruter film, that really needs to be
>seen. Video tapes die after about 10 or 15 years. They shed the metal
>particles on the mylar and mess up the heads of machines

Well, I went out today and got a umatic machine at a local military surplus
store. Cost me $25. A Wollensak by 3M. It was worth it to solve the mystery
of what was on the tapes. Turns out it was old footage of Gainesway Farms from
'76. Mostly scenes of horses and horse breeding processes from conception to
foaling. Actually interesting stuff, since Bold Bidder and several other
famous horses were on there. It was obviously a film transfer to umatic.
There were visible negative scratches, and you could hear the clicking of the
film camera on the audio track. Probably a 16mm source. I can't believe it
still played. Twenty seven year old video tape stored in a damp basement...
amazing.


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[Les Cargill]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> > This sounds very much like 3/4" U-Matic video cassettes.
>
> > This was Sony's first attempt at a home video format. Big, bulky, expensive,
> > limited to 60 minutes (large cassette) or 20 minutes (mini cassette). A staple
> > for many years at small TV stations and cable access studios, with video
> > quality only marginally better than VHS.
>
> U-matic was a semi-professional format. It was never marketed to consumers
> (though wealthy people, such as Hugh Hefner, owned U-matic machines).
>
> I've never seen a U-matic tape that I _knew_ was U-matic tape, but it would have
> to be of very poor quality to be only marginally better than VHS.

They were marginally worse than just about everything, but were available
in the early '70s, when there wasn't much else.

--
Les Cargill

[Kurt Albershardt]

Les Cargill wrote:

> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> This sounds very much like 3/4" U-Matic video cassettes.
>>
>> I've never seen a U-matic tape that I _knew_ was U-matic tape, but it would have
>> to be of very poor quality to be only marginally better than VHS.
>
>
> They were marginally worse than just about everything, but were available
> in the early '70s, when there wasn't much else.

The 3/4" U-Matic format was alive and well in the 1980's in most TV
stations on the planet. SP versions persisted into the early '90s and
are still in use for archive playback in a lot of facilities. Sony
officially discontinued support for the format in 1995, but refurb and
NOS machines were on dealer's shelves as recently as last year (may
still be for all I know.)

[Marc Wielage]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:24:32 -0700, Kurt Albershardt wrote
(in message >):

> The 3/4" U-Matic format was alive and well in the 1980's in most TV
> stations on the planet.
<--------------------------------snip-------------------------------->


I got news for all of you: 3/4" (aka U-Matic) is still used EVERY SINGLE DAY
in Los Angeles, and is still widely used for digitizing dailies into Avid
non-linear editing systems. I think it's neck-and-neck with Beta SP for
dailies at this point. And many studio execs still look at rough cuts of TV
shows and feature films on 3/4" tapes.

Sony has tried to kill 3/4" time and time again, but like Count Dracula, it
seems like it takes more than just a stake through the heart to kill the
thing. The better-built 3/4" machines, like the Sony BVU series (BVU-800,
BVU-950, etc.) hold up very well.

I also disagree that their picture quality was "no better than VHS," as
someone else said. I think 3/4" was marginally better in most ways. The
split-track analog stereo is pretty bad, though.

Note also that 3/4" was first unveiled in late 1969, hit the U.S. market in
late 1971, then got really popular from 1972-1980. Consumer Betamax came out
in late 1975, with the first deck introduced in March of 1976. Sony
officially discontinued Betamax about six months ago, putting out the press
release early in 2003.

--MFW

[nmmm]

On Thu, Oct 23, 2003 5:05 AM, John > wrote:
>I don't recognize what style of connector is used for the main video feed.

That's a UHF connector. or at least looks like it from the photos. You can
still buy UHF to BNC adapters... wich are a lot more convieniant than the
27 step crimp on UHF connectors.. wich are a major pain to crimp onto
cables.

[John]

I was wondering if anyone can give me an estimate as to the age of the player I
bought. It's a 3m Wollensak model VR-210. Can't find it on Google. Has to be
a first generation Umatic, I'm guessing though. I'm basing this on the fact
that it has tuner knobs for VHF and UHF. I think these were dropped later on,
once the mfg's realized that Umatic was not going to be a consumer format.

I put some pics up of the unit at
http://www.summertimestudios.com/umatic/umatic.htm

I don't recognize what style of connector is used for the main video feed. All
in all, I'd guess the unit weighs 45-50 lbs. For some reason I'm fascinated by
this anachronistic technology. It so much more full-featured than any VCR I've
seen. You can tell that by the pics of the inputs on the back panel for audio
dubbing.

I was also wondering if anyone knew what the original cost of a unit like this
would have been. $1000? $2000?

thanks-


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[Kurt Albershardt]

John wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone can give me an estimate as to the age of the player I
> bought. It's a 3m Wollensak model VR-210. Can't find it on Google. Has to be
> a first generation Umatic, I'm guessing though. I'm basing this on the fact
> that it has tuner knobs for VHF and UHF. I think these were dropped later on,
> once the mfg's realized that Umatic was not going to be a consumer format.

Late '70s industrial machines from Sony were still shipping with vernier
tuners similar to the one in your picture.





> I don't recognize what style of connector is used for the main video feed.

That's an SO-239 (mates with a PL-259,) commonly called a UHF connector.



> All
> in all, I'd guess the unit weighs 45-50 lbs. For some reason I'm fascinated by
> this anachronistic technology.

Check out the top-loading broadcast versions like the Sony BVU-200.
Blew out my back lifting one of those and spent a week in bed in '84.




> It so much more full-featured than any VCR I've
> seen. You can tell that by the pics of the inputs on the back panel for audio
> dubbing.

You oughtta see the current broadcast decks...

[Paul Dupuis]

Looks like a re-badged Sony VO1600. According to Sony's website ,
discontinued Jan1/1971. Does very basic play/record of Umatic (but not
the more recent UmaticSP). An old format but still probably the most
universally accepted (some movie studios were shipping trailers to tv
stations on Umatic up to very recently).

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/service/support/software/discontinuation/d_VTRs.html

Paul

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

> John wrote:
>
>> I was wondering if anyone can give me an estimate as to the age of the
>> player I
>> bought. It's a 3m Wollensak model VR-210. Can't find it on Google.
>> Has to be
>> a first generation Umatic, I'm guessing though. I'm basing this on
>> the fact
>> that it has tuner knobs for VHF and UHF. I think these were dropped
>> later on,
>> once the mfg's realized that Umatic was not going to be a consumer
>> format.
>
>
> Late '70s industrial machines from Sony were still shipping with vernier
> tuners similar to the one in your picture.
>
>
>
>
>
>> I don't recognize what style of connector is used for the main video
>> feed.
>
>
> That's an SO-239 (mates with a PL-259,) commonly called a UHF connector.
>
>
>
>> All
>> in all, I'd guess the unit weighs 45-50 lbs. For some reason I'm
>> fascinated by
>> this anachronistic technology.
>
>
> Check out the top-loading broadcast versions like the Sony BVU-200. Blew
> out my back lifting one of those and spent a week in bed in '84.
>
>
>
>
>> It so much more full-featured than any VCR I've
>> seen. You can tell that by the pics of the inputs on the back panel
>> for audio
>> dubbing.
>
>
> You oughtta see the current broadcast decks...
>
>
>
>
>

[Les Cargill]

Marc Wielage wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:24:32 -0700, Kurt Albershardt wrote
> (in message >):
>
> > The 3/4" U-Matic format was alive and well in the 1980's in most TV
> > stations on the planet.
> <--------------------------------snip-------------------------------->
>
> I got news for all of you: 3/4" (aka U-Matic) is still used EVERY SINGLE DAY
> in Los Angeles, and is still widely used for digitizing dailies into Avid
> non-linear editing systems. I think it's neck-and-neck with Beta SP for
> dailies at this point. And many studio execs still look at rough cuts of TV
> shows and feature films on 3/4" tapes.
>
> Sony has tried to kill 3/4" time and time again, but like Count Dracula, it
> seems like it takes more than just a stake through the heart to kill the
> thing. The better-built 3/4" machines, like the Sony BVU series (BVU-800,
> BVU-950, etc.) hold up very well.
>
> I also disagree that their picture quality was "no better than VHS," as
> someone else said. I think 3/4" was marginally better in most ways. The
> split-track analog stereo is pretty bad, though.
>

I was probably unfair. It was lousy on all the units I
worked with, which were of uncertain maintenence, being
college A/V stock. I mainly remember a lot
of bad things about dark-to-light transitions.

These things lived on carts and got rolled around,
so ...

> Note also that 3/4" was first unveiled in late 1969, hit the U.S. market in
> late 1971, then got really popular from 1972-1980. Consumer Betamax came out
> in late 1975, with the first deck introduced in March of 1976. Sony
> officially discontinued Betamax about six months ago, putting out the press
> release early in 2003.
>
> --MFW


--
Les Cargill

[William Sommerwerck]

> I also disagree that their picture quality was "no better than VHS," as
> someone else said. I think 3/4" was marginally better in most ways.
> The split-track analog stereo is pretty bad, though.

VHS has three major problems...

1. Poor bandwidth (both Y and C)
2. Poor timebase stability
3. Poor chroma phase characteristics

I find it hard to believe that U-matic is only "marginally" better than VHS.
Even original Beta is more than "marginally" superior to VHS.

[Scott Dorsey]

John > wrote:
>I don't recognize what style of connector is used for the main video feed. All
>in all, I'd guess the unit weighs 45-50 lbs. For some reason I'm fascinated by
>this anachronistic technology. It so much more full-featured than any VCR I've
>seen. You can tell that by the pics of the inputs on the back panel for audio
>dubbing.

Is it a round UHF plug, or is it a square multipin "Sony video" plug?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[John]

>From: (Scott Dorsey)

>Is it a round UHF plug, or is it a square multipin "Sony video" plug?
>--scott

round, which according to the other replies I've gotten, makes it a UHF plug.
I kind of have to laugh at myself for getting so jazzed about a $25 Umatic
deck, but it was very interesting to find tapes that were 27 years old lying in
the dirt floor of a basement, and then actually be able to play them. They
must have been fairly robust. The screws on the cassette case were rusted, and
there was some mold on the reels, but they still played. And played much
clearer than I thought they would.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[Scott Dorsey]

John > wrote:
>>From: (Scott Dorsey)
>
>>Is it a round UHF plug, or is it a square multipin "Sony video" plug?
>
>round, which according to the other replies I've gotten, makes it a UHF plug.
>I kind of have to laugh at myself for getting so jazzed about a $25 Umatic
>deck, but it was very interesting to find tapes that were 27 years old lying in
>the dirt floor of a basement, and then actually be able to play them. They
>must have been fairly robust. The screws on the cassette case were rusted, and
>there was some mold on the reels, but they still played. And played much
>clearer than I thought they would.

And this, in short, is what is so much fun about the whole industry. You
put sound in a box, and then years later you can take it out.
Often years after everyone has forgotten about it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."