needed technology improvements in pro audio

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,

If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
needed in the industry?
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-4, Randy Yates wrote:
> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>
> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
> needed in the industry?
> --
> Randy Yates
> Digital Signal Labs
> http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

Hi Randy,

I'm not exactly a pro....but in my mind the holy grail of audio DSP would be DEreverberation, open ended, when you don't have an impulse response avaialabe.

Also you may want to consider that there are 3 somewhat seperate markets of "the industry"... 1) live sound, 2) studio recording, and 3) audio for movies.

Guess which one has the most bucks...

Mark

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
> wrote:
> Also you may want to consider that there are 3 somewhat seperate markets
> of "the industry"... 1) live sound, 2) studio recording, and 3) audio
> for movies.

Think you've missed out broadcast. ;-)

--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Greg Berchin[_4_]]

On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 23:18:06 -0400, Randy Yates
> wrote:

>If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>needed in the industry?

Years ago I was a member of the DSP engineering team for a major Pro
Audio company. During one of the annual "meet and greet" events, in
which manufacturers' representatives from all over were brought to
corporate HQ to meet sales, marketing, and engineering people
face-to-face, the reps were asked what features they'd like to see in
our future products. One of the reps answered, "I'd like something that
automatically evaluates a room and tells me exactly what speakers, amps,
and other equipment will be needed. After it's installed, I'd like to be
able to push a button and have it set up the gain structure and EQ
automatically. I'd like everything to be automated." Nods of agreement
and approval all around.

My engineering manager answered, "If we had all of that, then what would
we need you guys for?"

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

writes:

> On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-4, Randy Yates wrote:
>> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>>
>> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>> --
>> Randy Yates
>> Digital Signal Labs
>> http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> I'm not exactly a pro....but in my mind the holy grail of audio DSP
> would be DEreverberation, open ended, when you don't have an impulse
> response avaialabe.

That's a great suggestion, Mark. Thank you.

> Also you may want to consider that there are 3 somewhat seperate
> markets of "the industry"... 1) live sound, 2) studio recording, and
> 3) audio for movies.
>
> Guess which one has the most bucks...

I'm guessing audio for movies, but I don't really know.

Call me a fool, but I'd like to uncouple the technology question from
the potential amount of money to be made. Man does not live by bread
alone.
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

Greg Berchin > writes:

> On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 23:18:06 -0400, Randy Yates
> > wrote:
>
>>If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>>product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>>needed in the industry?
>
> Years ago I was a member of the DSP engineering team for a major Pro
> Audio company. During one of the annual "meet and greet" events, in
> which manufacturers' representatives from all over were brought to
> corporate HQ to meet sales, marketing, and engineering people
> face-to-face, the reps were asked what features they'd like to see in
> our future products. One of the reps answered, "I'd like something that
> automatically evaluates a room and tells me exactly what speakers, amps,
> and other equipment will be needed. After it's installed, I'd like to be
> able to push a button and have it set up the gain structure and EQ
> automatically. I'd like everything to be automated." Nods of agreement
> and approval all around.
>
> My engineering manager answered, "If we had all of that, then what would
> we need you guys for?"

Ha ha! Greg, good to see you here - I didn't know you frequented this group.
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > writes:

> In article >,
> > wrote:
>> Also you may want to consider that there are 3 somewhat seperate markets
>> of "the industry"... 1) live sound, 2) studio recording, and 3) audio
>> for movies.
>
> Think you've missed out broadcast. ;-)

Yeah, sure, all of the above.
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Greg Berchin[_4_]]

On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 11:25:21 -0400, Randy Yates
> wrote:

>Ha ha! Greg, good to see you here - I didn't know you frequented this group.

Yeah ... I guess I'm just a Renaissance Man.

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Greg Berchin" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 23:18:06 -0400, Randy Yates
> > wrote:
>
>>If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>>product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>>needed in the industry?
>
> Years ago I was a member of the DSP engineering team for a major Pro
> Audio company. During one of the annual "meet and greet" events, in
> which manufacturers' representatives from all over were brought to
> corporate HQ to meet sales, marketing, and engineering people
> face-to-face, the reps were asked what features they'd like to see in
> our future products. One of the reps answered, "I'd like something that
> automatically evaluates a room and tells me exactly what speakers, amps,
> and other equipment will be needed. After it's installed, I'd like to be
> able to push a button and have it set up the gain structure and EQ
> automatically. I'd like everything to be automated." Nods of agreement
> and approval all around.

It's called the Bose Modeler program.

Gary

[Gary Eickmeier]

> It's called the Bose Modeler program.

http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/web/modeler_software/page.html

Gary

[Dec [Cluskey]]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 4:18:09 AM UTC+1, Randy Yates wrote:
what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
> needed in the industry?

Randy

I have long thought that this would be a winner:

1/4" jack mounted guitar/bass/synth tranmitter and similar receiver [plugging into amp. or D.I.]

with automatic 'free channel' selector ... affordable ... reliable ... small in size ... no need for -10db choice [make it -10db anyway] .... the receiver should automatically pick up any matching transmitter when activated [for multi guitar use by same player]

I have seen all sorts come and go through the years ... perhaps there is a reason why they come and go ... I see many, many guitarists, particularly, who would die for such a system ... including myself. ... Dec

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-4, Randy Yates wrote:
>> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>>
>> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>
>I'm not exactly a pro....but in my mind the holy grail of audio DSP would be DEreverberation, open ended, when you don't have an impulse response avaialabe.

Five years ago I would have agreed with this... but these days there are
actually some effective dereverberation packages out there. None of them
really sound very good, but the process is now good enough to be used for
dialogue work on films.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

"Dec [Cluskey]" > writes:

> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 4:18:09 AM UTC+1, Randy Yates wrote:
> what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>
> Randy
>
> I have long thought that this would be a winner:
>
> 1/4" jack mounted guitar/bass/synth tranmitter and similar receiver [plugging into amp. or D.I.]
>
> with automatic 'free channel' selector ... affordable ... reliable ...
> small in size ... no need for -10db choice [make it -10db anyway] ....
> the receiver should automatically pick up any matching transmitter
> when activated [for multi guitar use by same player]
>
> I have seen all sorts come and go through the years ... perhaps there is a reason why they come and go ... I see many, many guitarists, particularly, who would die for such a system ... including myself. ... Dec

Wonderful idea. Thanks for that, Dec.
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[JackA]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-4, Randy Yates wrote:
> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>
> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
> needed in the industry?
> --
> Randy Yates
> Digital Signal Labs
> http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

No need for new audio gadgets, find more talented engineers, better musicians and singers.

Jack

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Greg Berchin wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 23:18:06 -0400, Randy Yates
> > wrote:
>
>> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>
> Years ago I was a member of the DSP engineering team for a major Pro
> Audio company. During one of the annual "meet and greet" events, in
> which manufacturers' representatives from all over were brought to
> corporate HQ to meet sales, marketing, and engineering people
> face-to-face, the reps were asked what features they'd like to see in
> our future products. One of the reps answered, "I'd like something that
> automatically evaluates a room and tells me exactly what speakers, amps,
> and other equipment will be needed. After it's installed, I'd like to be
> able to push a button and have it set up the gain structure and EQ
> automatically. I'd like everything to be automated." Nods of agreement
> and approval all around.
>
> My engineering manager answered, "If we had all of that, then what would
> we need you guys for?"
>


To fix all the bugs in it.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 4/7/2015 8:18 PM, Randy Yates wrote:
> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
> needed in the industry?

I think we have too many products already. Every now and then, I've
wondered "why isn't there a ....?" and nobody else ever thought it was
useful, or they already have a complicated way of doing the same thing.
A recent one that I remember is a data base like application for
characterizing and indexing audio files. You could enter obvious things
like song title, player, and author, but also musician-specific things
like tempo, key, tuning (there are about 100 different banjo tunings,
for instance), key phrases if it's a song, same for topics. And when you
search the data base and get a hit, it pops up a file you can click on
and listen to.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then

[geoff]

On 9/04/2015 5:31 a.m., Dec [Cluskey] wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 4:18:09 AM UTC+1, Randy Yates wrote:
> what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>
> Randy
>
> I have long thought that this would be a winner:
>
> 1/4" jack mounted guitar/bass/synth tranmitter and similar receiver
> [plugging into amp. or D.I.]

Plenty of those. They break off very well and regularly, especially the
guitar ones. A 'bodypack' hooked onto the strap is better.

>
> with automatic 'free channel' selector ... affordable ... reliable
> ... small in size ... no need for -10db choice [make it -10db anyway]
> .... the receiver should automatically pick up any matching
> transmitter when activated [for multi guitar use by same player]


Would make it tricky if more than one unit to be used !

geoff

[Garvin Yee]

On 4/8/2015 5:27 PM, JackA wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-4, Randy Yates wrote:
>> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>>
>> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>> --
>> Randy Yates
>> Digital Signal Labs
>> http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
>
> No need for new audio gadgets, find more talented engineers, better musicians and singers.
>
> Jack
>

To that list I would add better composers, lyricists, and
songwriters.....


--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/34735015@N03/sets/72157623566520134/

http://fineartamerica.com/art/all/garvin+yee/all

https://www.facebook.com/garvin.yee.37

[JackA]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 8:13:39 AM UTC-4, Garvin Yee wrote:
> On 4/8/2015 5:27 PM, JackA wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-4, Randy Yates wrote:
> >> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
> >>
> >> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
> >> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
> >> needed in the industry?
> >> --
> >> Randy Yates
> >> Digital Signal Labs
> >> http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
> >
> > No need for new audio gadgets, find more talented engineers, better musicians and singers.
> >
> > Jack
> >
>
> To that list I would add better composers, lyricists, and
> songwriters.....

I do not believe you need top quality sound to achieve a "hit". Heard one too many songs with ill sound quality that made US Top 10, maybe even #1 status.

Granted, Paul McCartney is partially responsible, but those who engineered his sound quality about the '70's, at Abbey Road, it's no wonder why someone as simple as Alan Parsons could out perform the majority and become known as an audiophile.

As with Hit or Pop music, it continues to grow cheaper and cheaper. Production costs are kept so low, eventually, you won't need singers and musicians, their sounds will all be fabricated. Tough to find "real" talent to admire.

Jack

>
> --
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/34735015@N03/sets/72157623566520134/
>
> http://fineartamerica.com/art/all/garvin+yee/all
>
> https://www.facebook.com/garvin.yee.37

[Dieter Michel]

Hi Scott,

>> I'm not exactly a pro....but in my mind the holy grail
>> of audio DSP would be DEreverberation, open ended,
>> when you don't have an impulse response avaialabe.

actually, that was my first thought as well ...

> Five years ago I would have agreed with this... but these days there are
> actually some effective dereverberation packages out there. None of them
> really sound very good, but the process is now good enough to be used for
> dialogue work on films.

I'm not so much into film works - can you give
an example of such software?

Thanks in advance,

Dieter Michel

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 4/7/2015 8:18 PM, Randy Yates wrote:
>> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>
> I think we have too many products already. Every now and then, I've
> wondered "why isn't there a ....?" and nobody else ever thought it was
> useful, or they already have a complicated way of doing the same thing.
> A recent one that I remember is a data base like application for
> characterizing and indexing audio files. You could enter obvious things
> like song title, player, and author, but also musician-specific things
> like tempo, key, tuning (there are about 100 different banjo tunings,
> for instance), key phrases if it's a song, same for topics. And when you
> search the data base and get a hit, it pops up a file you can click on
> and listen to.
>


You're in luck!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSwqnR327fk


--
Les Cargill

[Scott Dorsey]

Randy Yates > wrote:
>Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>
>If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>needed in the industry?

I think that, in spite of a century of progress, the main issues are still
transducers and rooms.

I think a transducer with controlled dispersion and flat response across
a wide area is still a dream, and it's been a dream for so long...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>On 4/7/2015 8:18 PM, Randy Yates wrote:
>> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>> needed in the industry?
>
>I think we have too many products already. Every now and then, I've
>wondered "why isn't there a ....?" and nobody else ever thought it was
>useful, or they already have a complicated way of doing the same thing.
>A recent one that I remember is a data base like application for
>characterizing and indexing audio files. You could enter obvious things
>like song title, player, and author, but also musician-specific things
>like tempo, key, tuning (there are about 100 different banjo tunings,
>for instance), key phrases if it's a song, same for topics. And when you
>search the data base and get a hit, it pops up a file you can click on
>and listen to.

I agree with Mike that we have too many products, and I will add to this
that most of them don't actually work very well. So maybe what we need is
a product to determine which products actually are any good.

And that might begin with an accurate model of human hearing...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Dieter Michel > wrote:
>Hi Scott,
>
>>> I'm not exactly a pro....but in my mind the holy grail
>>> of audio DSP would be DEreverberation, open ended,
> >> when you don't have an impulse response avaialabe.
>
>actually, that was my first thought as well ...
>
>> Five years ago I would have agreed with this... but these days there are
>> actually some effective dereverberation packages out there. None of them
>> really sound very good, but the process is now good enough to be used for
>> dialogue work on films.
>
>I'm not so much into film works - can you give
>an example of such software?

The only one I have played with is the "Dereverb" module from Neyrinck which
is a pro-tools plug-in. It works! Lots of artifacts, but it works!

There have been a bunch of experimental programs demonstrated in the last
few years, though. Kino****a at NTT, and Gilbert Souloudre have both
demonstrated systems at conferences.

Izotope and Zynaptic also have dereverberation plugins but I have not used
them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

> Randy Yates > wrote:
>>Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>>
>>If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>>product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>>needed in the industry?
>
> I think that, in spite of a century of progress, the main issues are still
> transducers and rooms.

THIS is the first response I expected! I was surprised that it took so
long.

> I think a transducer with controlled dispersion and flat response across
> a wide area is still a dream, and it's been a dream for so long...

Indeed.
--
Randy Yates
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[PStamler]

Room treatment material that works down to 100Hz or lower, that doesn't give you the itch and doesn't disintegrate into toxic powder.

Peace,
Paul

[Edi Zubovic]

On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:19:28 -0500, Les Cargill
> wrote:

>Mike Rivers wrote:
>> On 4/7/2015 8:18 PM, Randy Yates wrote:
>>> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
>>> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
>>> needed in the industry?
>>
>> I think we have too many products already. Every now and then, I've
>> wondered "why isn't there a ....?" and nobody else ever thought it was
>> useful, or they already have a complicated way of doing the same thing.
>> A recent one that I remember is a data base like application for
>> characterizing and indexing audio files. You could enter obvious things
>> like song title, player, and author, but also musician-specific things
>> like tempo, key, tuning (there are about 100 different banjo tunings,
>> for instance), key phrases if it's a song, same for topics. And when you
>> search the data base and get a hit, it pops up a file you can click on
>> and listen to.
>>
>
>
>You're in luck!
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSwqnR327fk

Whoaa, "Ten Floppy Disk Software Bundle"! Sweet. Windows 3 comes to
mind. Hasn't been so superautomatic, though.
And then browse the browser and hit 464432754.

Seriously, I'm using the free MP3Tag,

http://www.mp3tag.de/en/download.html

and it does exacty what the OP wanted to, _provided_ you have all
relevant information in the file. I've done in on hundreds of my mp3s
and it can do all sorting desired. I use it mainly for putting the
pictures of record sleeves and labels in the file.
Don't know whether there was a similar program for BWF files though,
but I think it should be.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[Greg Berchin[_4_]]

On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:31:28 -0500, Les Cargill >
wrote:

>> My engineering manager answered, "If we had all of that, then what would
>> we need you guys for?"
>
>To fix all the bugs in it.

To be fair, the reps were the ones who usually *found* the bugs.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Greg Berchin wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:31:28 -0500, Les Cargill >
> wrote:
>
>>> My engineering manager answered, "If we had all of that, then what would
>>> we need you guys for?"
>>
>> To fix all the bugs in it.
>
> To be fair, the reps were the ones who usually *found* the bugs.
>

They usually are. Being exposed to people who use things helps a lot
in finding bugs in them.

--
Les Cargill

[John Williamson]

On 11/04/2015 03:15, Les Cargill wrote:
> Greg Berchin wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:31:28 -0500, Les Cargill >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> My engineering manager answered, "If we had all of that, then what
>>>> would
>>>> we need you guys for?"
>>>
>>> To fix all the bugs in it.
>>
>> To be fair, the reps were the ones who usually *found* the bugs.
>>
>
> They usually are. Being exposed to people who use things helps a lot
> in finding bugs in them.
>
And finding a bug does *not* mean you can fix it.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

John Williamson wrote:
> On 11/04/2015 03:15, Les Cargill wrote:
>> Greg Berchin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:31:28 -0500, Les Cargill >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> My engineering manager answered, "If we had all of that, then what
>>>>> would
>>>>> we need you guys for?"
>>>>
>>>> To fix all the bugs in it.
>>>
>>> To be fair, the reps were the ones who usually *found* the bugs.
>>>
>>
>> They usually are. Being exposed to people who use things helps a lot
>> in finding bugs in them.
>>
> And finding a bug does *not* mean you can fix it.
>


That is why I chose the words "being exposed to people who".

The two are presumed to be different people.

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Randy Yates > wrote:

> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
>
> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
> needed in the industry?

1. People who love music and are willing to pay for it.

2. A bot that screws up computers when people go to steal music that was
not offered free of charge legally.

3. A perfect speaker system.

:-)

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Randy Yates > wrote:

> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-4, Randy Yates wrote:
> >> Hello to all the Scott Dorseys and Mike Rivers of the pro audio world,
> >>
> >> If an engineer wanted to put his soul into developing a pro audio
> >> product, what types of products and/or improvements do you think are
> >> needed in the industry?
> >> --
> >> Randy Yates
> >> Digital Signal Labs
> >> http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
> >
> > Hi Randy,
> >
> > I'm not exactly a pro....but in my mind the holy grail of audio DSP
> > would be DEreverberation, open ended, when you don't have an impulse
> > response avaialabe.
>
> That's a great suggestion, Mark. Thank you.
>
> > Also you may want to consider that there are 3 somewhat seperate
> > markets of "the industry"... 1) live sound, 2) studio recording, and
> > 3) audio for movies.
> >
> > Guess which one has the most bucks...
>
> I'm guessing audio for movies, but I don't really know.
>
> Call me a fool, but I'd like to uncouple the technology question from
> the potential amount of money to be made. Man does not live by bread
> alone.

Right, but damn it gets old licking the peanut butter and jelly out of
my palm.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

PStamler > wrote:

> Room treatment material that works down to 100Hz or lower, that doesn't
> give you the itch and doesn't disintegrate into toxic powder.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

There has been discussion of such a product over on PRW, but I don't
think it has come to market yet, and I am expecting it to be expensive
when it does. Could be wrong. The few anecdotal field reports I saw were
very encouraging.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Trevor]

On 18/04/2015 3:51 AM, hank alrich wrote:
> Randy Yates > wrote:
>> Call me a fool, but I'd like to uncouple the technology question from
>> the potential amount of money to be made. Man does not live by bread
>> alone.
>
> Right, but damn it gets old licking the peanut butter and jelly out of
> my palm.

You can actually afford peanut butter and jelly then? :-)

Trevor.