setting a limiter on Sound Reinforcement

[Nate Najar]

so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti amp with DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....

So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine the correct way to set the limiter? Is there a mathematical way to do it? I've seen a few equations floating around google, but they're mentioned from people I don't know and I don't trust the internet! If one you you guys that I know and trust tells me what to do, I know I'm doing it correctly.

A buddy of mine who is a knowledgeable and trusted FOH guy for a hall here told me always does it by ear, so I suppose I can go that route if I have to, but I'm wondering what else I can do.

Thanks!

N

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

"Nate Najar" > skrev i en meddelelse
...

> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti
> amp with DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....

> So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those
> boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine
> the correct way to set the limiter?

Fast attack and slow release is the Phil Allison advice, see this:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html

> N

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

Nate Najar > wrote:
>
>So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those boxes, an=
>d the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine the correct way=
> to set the limiter? Is there a mathematical way to do it? I've seen a fe=
>w equations floating around google, but they're mentioned from people I don=
>'t know and I don't trust the internet! If one you you guys that I know an=
>d trust tells me what to do, I know I'm doing it correctly.

Turn it up until it's too damn loud, then turn the limiter down until it is
just barely triggering.

>A buddy of mine who is a knowledgeable and trusted FOH guy for a hall here =
>told me always does it by ear, so I suppose I can go that route if I have t=
>o, but I'm wondering what else I can do.

There are two variables: how loud the signal is acoustically coming out of
the speaker, then how much it's triggering. You can check the first by ear
or with an SPL meter, and the second by watching the metering on the limiter.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

"Peter Larsen" > wrote:
> "Nate Najar" > skrev i en meddelelse
> ...
>
>> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti
>> amp with DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....
>
>> So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those
>> boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine
>> the correct way to set the limiter?
>
> Fast attack and slow release is the Phil Allison advice, see this:
>
> http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
>
>> N
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen

Oh. For a second there, I thought you were talking about Phil's behaviour
on the Internet.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Ralph Barone wrote:
> "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
>> "Nate Najar" > skrev i en meddelelse
>> ...
>>
>>> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti
>>> amp with DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....
>>
>>> So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those
>>> boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine
>>> the correct way to set the limiter?
>>
>> Fast attack and slow release is the Phil Allison advice, see this:
>>
>> http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
>>
>>> N
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Peter Larsen
>
> Oh. For a second there, I thought you were talking about Phil's behaviour
> on the Internet.
>

Phil flamed me this week* - but that is one heck of a repository of
great information at the link.

I suspect Eddie Izzard would call him "spiky." But Phil knows
his stuff.



--
Les Cargill

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

Les Cargill > wrote:
> Ralph Barone wrote:
>> "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
>>> "Nate Najar" > skrev i en meddelelse
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti
>>>> amp with DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....
>>>
>>>> So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those
>>>> boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine
>>>> the correct way to set the limiter?
>>>
>>> Fast attack and slow release is the Phil Allison advice, see this:
>>>
>>> http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
>>>
>>>> N
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Peter Larsen
>>
>> Oh. For a second there, I thought you were talking about Phil's behaviour
>> on the Internet.
>>
>
> Phil flamed me this week* - but that is one heck of a repository of great
> information at the link.
>
> I suspect Eddie Izzard would call him "spiky." But Phil knows
> his stuff.
>
>


Oh definitely, a great article.

[hank alrich]

Nate Najar > wrote:

> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti amp with DSP,
>specifically for the limiter but also the eq....
>

I would return of that amp right now. They are fine for background,
distributed music systems, because they have tons of DSP built in to
handle levels, delays, etc. That's the great news. The rest of the story
is they sound like ****. Nobobdy cares about dynamic range or fideltiy
in background music systems.

An earlier iteration the CDi series was a pain in my ear at a venue here
in Austin that I have been helping with production for years. I had
wanted to replace those amps almost from the gitgo.

It's a restaurant with small bar, and lots of typical restaurant
machinery plus loads of neon signs, many artifactual, if you know what I
mean. Buzzes would come, get tracked down and eliminated. For years.
Finally three days the a $75/tidket NYE show a buzz refused to submit.
Tracked it to the right channel of an amp driving the highs on one side
of the main room.

There was no time to try to get it repaired. The owner said not to wory
about anything but betting if fixed, pronto. I replaced all the Crowns
with a single QSC GX7A that cost $500 and offers 750/side, driving the
excellent internal crossovers of the QSC mains.

I played that stage opening the NYE show. My guitar sounded like it was
made of wood instead of plastic.

Why do you want this limiting? Why would you prefer that internal Crown
DSP to an outboard limter? If you seek absolute peak protection, a Waves
L2 hardware box does a very good job of that.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Neil[_9_]]

On 3/23/2015 3:20 AM, hank alrich wrote:
>
> I played that stage opening the NYE show. My guitar sounded like it was
> made of wood instead of plastic.
>
You have a plastic guitar? I thought I was one of a decreasing number of
players with one... (my '69 Dan Armstrong that I seriously modified...
it's now a Neil/Armstrong) but, it's probably a typo... ;-)

--
best regards,

Neil

[hank alrich]

Neil > wrote:

> On 3/23/2015 3:20 AM, hank alrich wrote:
> >
> > I played that stage opening the NYE show. My guitar sounded like it was
> > made of wood instead of plastic.
> >
> You have a plastic guitar? I thought I was one of a decreasing number of
> players with one... (my '69 Dan Armstrong that I seriously modified...
> it's now a Neil/Armstrong) but, it's probably a typo... ;-)

LOL! Nope, this one is Italian spruce and Brazilian rosewood. What I
intended to convey was that the system now sounds much more natural,
sources sound much more credible in the room, and from the stage.

It was a large improvement. I find it satisfying to have pinpointed a
problem with fidelity of repro long ago, propose a solution, eventually
get to implement that solution, and have it fix the problem.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <490592330448597230.591666address_is-invalid.invalid@shawnews>,
Ralph Barone > wrote:
> > Fast attack and slow release is the Phil Allison advice, see this:
> >
> > http://sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.html
> >
> >> N
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Peter Larsen

> Oh. For a second there, I thought you were talking about Phil's behaviour
> on the Internet.

;-)

Did wonder if it was the same. Don't they have meds in Oz?

--
*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Neil Gould]

Nate Najar wrote:
> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti amp with
> DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....
>
> So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those
> boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine
> the correct way to set the limiter? Is there a mathematical way to
> do it? I've seen a few equations floating around google, but they're
> mentioned from people I don't know and I don't trust the internet!
> If one you you guys that I know and trust tells me what to do, I know
> I'm doing it correctly.
>
> A buddy of mine who is a knowledgeable and trusted FOH guy for a hall
> here told me always does it by ear, so I suppose I can go that route
> if I have to, but I'm wondering what else I can do.
>
> Thanks!
>
My opinion is that the "front end" approach -- trying to prevent speaker
damage by treating the signal ahead of the amplifier -- may not be
completely effective in a live-music setting. Things happen that can allow
the amp to deliver a good deal of power whether or not there are limiters in
the circuit. Even switching the amp on could do damage.

From what has been said in this and the previous thread, I'd lean toward the
"back end" approach suggested by a couple of others, such as using lights to
handle over-voltage, since that would stand the best chance of trapping
surges.

--
best regards,

Neil

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Neil Gould wrote:
> Nate Najar wrote:
>> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti amp with
>> DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....
>>
>> So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those
>> boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine
>> the correct way to set the limiter? Is there a mathematical way to
>> do it? I've seen a few equations floating around google, but they're
>> mentioned from people I don't know and I don't trust the internet!
>> If one you you guys that I know and trust tells me what to do, I know
>> I'm doing it correctly.
>>
>> A buddy of mine who is a knowledgeable and trusted FOH guy for a hall
>> here told me always does it by ear, so I suppose I can go that route
>> if I have to, but I'm wondering what else I can do.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
> My opinion is that the "front end" approach -- trying to prevent speaker
> damage by treating the signal ahead of the amplifier -- may not be
> completely effective in a live-music setting. Things happen that can allow
> the amp to deliver a good deal of power whether or not there are limiters in
> the circuit. Even switching the amp on could do damage.
>

I don't know how it works, but I have an Ampeg B4R and the limiter on
it works. I expect it just delivers a maximum voltage or current to the
inputs of the power section, but there's a micro in there so
it could "cheat".

If you know exactly the maximum to prevent damage at any stage, you
can probably enforce that. But it's not like plugging things together
with a limiter somewhere. It's very likely a result of taking a priori
knowledge of the unit and applying it in the implementation.

> From what has been said in this and the previous thread, I'd lean toward the
> "back end" approach suggested by a couple of others, such as using lights to
> handle over-voltage, since that would stand the best chance of trapping
> surges.
>

--
Les Cargill

[Neil[_9_]]

On 3/24/2015 12:53 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
> Neil Gould wrote:
>> Nate Najar wrote:
>>> so I had my tannoy V8's repaired and I've bought a crown xti amp with
>>> DSP, specifically for the limiter but also the eq....
>>>
>>> So, I have the eq compensation instructions from Tannoy for those
>>> boxes, and the HP alone should probably help, but how do I determine
>>> the correct way to set the limiter? Is there a mathematical way to
>>> do it? I've seen a few equations floating around google, but they're
>>> mentioned from people I don't know and I don't trust the internet!
>>> If one you you guys that I know and trust tells me what to do, I know
>>> I'm doing it correctly.
>>>
>>> A buddy of mine who is a knowledgeable and trusted FOH guy for a hall
>>> here told me always does it by ear, so I suppose I can go that route
>>> if I have to, but I'm wondering what else I can do.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>> My opinion is that the "front end" approach -- trying to prevent speaker
>> damage by treating the signal ahead of the amplifier -- may not be
>> completely effective in a live-music setting. Things happen that can
>> allow
>> the amp to deliver a good deal of power whether or not there are
>> limiters in
>> the circuit. Even switching the amp on could do damage.
>>
>
> I don't know how it works, but I have an Ampeg B4R and the limiter on
> it works. I expect it just delivers a maximum voltage or current to the
> inputs of the power section, but there's a micro in there so
> it could "cheat".
>
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that limiters won't work at all... I'm
only saying that there are circumstances that are beyond the control of
a limiter (EQ, or other "front end" controls) that can cause speaker
damage.

> If you know exactly the maximum to prevent damage at any stage, you
> can probably enforce that. But it's not like plugging things together
> with a limiter somewhere. It's very likely a result of taking a priori
> knowledge of the unit and applying it in the implementation.
>
The problem is that one can only "enforce" the factors that are within
the control loop. Signal levels from reliable sources such as program
material, for example. But what happens when the system is already
pushed to "max" and someone drops a mic? Most limiters are likely to
pass at least one of those cycles. If there's nothing on the back end to
soak up that surge, the speakers will have to deal with them.

--
best regards,

Neil