Enjoying Learning Multitracking

[Gary Eickmeier]

I am starting a new learning curve in the area of multitracking and gaining
new respect for that art and science. My boss's daughter is trying to start
a new group for gospel songs and I have volunteered to do the recording. It
seemed ideal for multitracking, so I have four AT 2050 mikes and the Zoom H6
to begin the process. I placed the mikes one under the lid of the piano, two
in front of the drum kit, and one on the singer. Learned quickly that I
needed a pop filter for her, but also need to keep her at a consistent
distance.

http://tinyurl.com/pzxgg74

I was surprised at how good they sounded (technically anyway) when mixed
down and played back on my system. First the drum kit, then the piano mike,
then a clip of the mixdown:

https://soundcloud.com/eickmeier-1/drums-wider-wav?in=eickmeier-1/sets/multimiking

There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and speakers
in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike. Made
no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on its
channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and that
helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of it on
the piano clip above.

The real session will be this coming Tuesday, and there will be backing
singers, an organ, and a keyboard added to the mix. I bought the little two
XLR additional input to the H6 to turn it into a six channel recorder, and I
can hang another recorder off the church's sound board and mix it in sync
with my material to catch the keyboard directly. I bought two new caradioid
condenser mikes, the AT 2041 (cheap) mikes, for the backing singers and/or
chorus.

So I have gained a new respect for the art of multitracking, which is where
the real art is in the recording industry. So many new things to learn and
try, from how many tracks to placement, loudness, mixing with ambient
sounds, and I haven't even begun to explore the new world of reverb effects
that can be incorporated. I am praying that the natural reverb in the church
will be sufficient to not need artificial reverb, because I am not in as dry
an environment as most of you are dealing with.

It is an annoyance that most sound boards will not be mixed in stereo but I
suppose that is to be expected and we wouldn't want them to decide our
stereo placement anyway. For this one, I am getting them to turn off every
feed but the keyboard, so I can get that cleanly by itself in case I want to
place it myself. We will turn the house speakers off or down low so my mikes
don't get that mooshed in with what they are doing. And we will pay
particular attention to the humming piano! Maybe it was just the particular
XLR cable that was on that mike. Can XLRs hum if one of the wires is coming
loose?

Gary Eickmeier

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/14/2015 10:57 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and speakers
> in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike. Made
> no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on its
> channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and that
> helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of it on
> the piano clip above.

I didn't hear hum on the piano, but I didn't try playing your clip
through speakers that had enough low end to hear it if it was there. The
problem could definitely be a broken ground wire in the mic cable, which
would usually be right at the connector. Could be that when you moved
the mic, you wiggled the cable enough to close the break. If you know
which cable you used on that mic, set it up at home and bend it around
to see if you can make the problem occur. It could have also been that
the cable was laying on the floor close to some power wiring, and when
you moved the mic, you moved the cable. Or it could be wind noise from a
fan or HVAC blower.




--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> On 3/14/2015 10:57 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
> > There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and speakers
> > in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike. Made
> > no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on its
> > channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and that
> > helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of it on
> > the piano clip above.
>
> I didn't hear hum on the piano, but I didn't try playing your clip
> through speakers that had enough low end to hear it if it was there. The
> problem could definitely be a broken ground wire in the mic cable, which
> would usually be right at the connector. Could be that when you moved
> the mic, you wiggled the cable enough to close the break. If you know
> which cable you used on that mic, set it up at home and bend it around
> to see if you can make the problem occur. It could have also been that
> the cable was laying on the floor close to some power wiring, and when
> you moved the mic, you moved the cable. Or it could be wind noise from a
> fan or HVAC blower.

Could it be a mic that isn't shielded as well as it might be, and
something very specific about position vis a vis a source of EM
interference?

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[PStamler]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 8:56:12 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and speakers
> in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike. Made
> no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on its
> channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and that
> helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of it on
> the piano clip above.

Is there a TV or radio station nearby?

Peace.
Paul

[Gary Eickmeier]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
>> On 3/14/2015 10:57 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>>
>> > There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and
>> > speakers
>> > in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike.
>> > Made
>> > no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on
>> > its
>> > channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and
>> > that
>> > helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of
>> > it on
>> > the piano clip above.
>>
>> I didn't hear hum on the piano, but I didn't try playing your clip
>> through speakers that had enough low end to hear it if it was there. The
>> problem could definitely be a broken ground wire in the mic cable, which
>> would usually be right at the connector. Could be that when you moved
>> the mic, you wiggled the cable enough to close the break. If you know
>> which cable you used on that mic, set it up at home and bend it around
>> to see if you can make the problem occur. It could have also been that
>> the cable was laying on the floor close to some power wiring, and when
>> you moved the mic, you moved the cable. Or it could be wind noise from a
>> fan or HVAC blower.
>
> Could it be a mic that isn't shielded as well as it might be, and
> something very specific about position vis a vis a source of EM
> interference?

Yes to both. I will have to go through my cables and test them here at home.
And yes, a lot of the cable was lying on the floor on top of other cables,
and I did at the time move it around to try and get it away from there.
Destroying my faith in XLR!

Thanks,

Gary

[Luxey]

Hopefully, you explained to unsuspecting victims you've never done it before
and basically you have no idea what you're doing?

I remember the last time, you asked about 2 track and stereo, how to
switch on some ZOOM thing and so on. Then, the next week came back posing as an
expert, bragging about satisfied custommers, (re)inventing recording techniques and playback systems ...

[Gary Eickmeier]

"PStamler" > wrote in message
...
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 8:56:12 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
>> There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and
>> speakers
>> in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike.
>> Made
>> no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on its
>> channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and that
>> helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of it
>> on
>> the piano clip above.
>
> Is there a TV or radio station nearby?
>
> Peace.
> Paul

No, not likely - sort of up in the country part of town, just subdivisions
and churches. Besides, the hum was just in that piano line, none of the
others. I think it was the cable.

Gary

PS reading your microphones article with great interest.

Gary

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Luxey" > wrote in message
...
> Hopefully, you explained to unsuspecting victims you've never done it
> before
> and basically you have no idea what you're doing?
>
> I remember the last time, you asked about 2 track and stereo, how to
> switch on some ZOOM thing and so on. Then, the next week came back posing
> as an
> expert, bragging about satisfied custommers, (re)inventing recording
> techniques and playback systems ...

Thanks for your interest Lux. Yes, I explained that I have not done
multitracking before, but then they have never been a group before either,
so we're even. As I said, I am on the bottom of the learning curve of this
one, but it seems really worthwhile from the initial results I have heard so
far. And my hat is off to those of you who do this every day. I can't
emagine all of the issues you have to deal with, especially if you have
paying customers to satisfy with all of their different ideas of what to
expect as the outcome. I am just flying by the seat of my pants using what I
want to hear in the final mix as my only guide - plus of course reading in
books, magazines, and right here.

I have had good success with my local concert band and the jazz group from
them. But those are all just single point stereo recordings with the singer
taken off the sound board. Baby stuff. Hang a couple of good mikes, set the
levels, and edit the result. I did experiment a lot between MS and XY and
spaced omni and my own configuration, but there really isn't a world of
difference among them, and not much to do mixing wise. Also did some
discrete and matrixed (DPL) surround sound, but of course I was the only one
who could appreciate those.

Where do you fall in all of this? Do you record professionally? What
techniques?

Gary

[Luxey]

Nowhere near you Gary, rest assured.

[Scott Dorsey]

Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
> --scott

Good call. Those never learn the lyrics.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[PStamler]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 4:03:56 PM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> "PStamler" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 8:56:12 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> >
> >> There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and
> >> speakers
> >> in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike.
> >> Made
> >> no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on its
> >> channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and that
> >> helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of it
> >> on
> >> the piano clip above.
> >
> > Is there a TV or radio station nearby?
>
> No, not likely - sort of up in the country part of town, just subdivisions
> and churches. Besides, the hum was just in that piano line, none of the
> others. I think it was the cable.

In that case, yeah, it sounds like a cable problem. Have you tried the same mic with a different cable, or a different mic with the same cable?

> PS reading your microphones article with great interest.

I'm glad -- enjoy!

Peace,
Paul

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
> --scott

You've got me there! If that is an accessory that requires electrical power,
I didn't see anything on it. It had just the little light for reading the
music, but we eliminated that.

Gary

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

"Gary Eickmeier" > skrev i en meddelelse
...

> There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and
> speakers in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano
> mike.

Prolly just grumbling over being put inside the piano ... O;-)

> Made no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano
> was humming on its channel for no electrical reason.

That would then be covered by the above statement. However generally hum has
an electrical cause. One probable cause to be aware of with diy cables is
xlr-plug shells that are not wired to shield in case of using a mic cable as
extension cable, I always connect shell to shield on the female plugs if I
diy cables.

> It is an annoyance that most sound boards will not be mixed
> in stereo but I suppose that is to be expected and we wouldn't
> want them to decide our stereo placement anyway.

That is where diplomatic skills matter. You only need to have panning match
physical placement but scaled down for pa compatibility, you can always
enhance side channel information if it is there. Add a pair of omnis
suspended over the stage edge with 50 centimeters between them (18 inches),
ECM8000 will probably do fine if they don't clip on a pair of tracks and be
happy, almost - this because PA mixes often have more reverb added than what
fits living room playback, but live with it, don't bugger the PA guy for
more than a wee bit of panning.

It has happened that you have not beem completely aware of what Audition can
do for you, you are aware that the FFT equalizer is very good at filtering
mains hum and harmonics? - with that in mind a wee bit of hum is not the
largest worry in the world, but buzz is, because that is wideband and not
really possible to filter out in post.

> Gary Eickmeier

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
k...

> That is where diplomatic skills matter. You only need to have panning
> match physical placement but scaled down for pa compatibility, you can
> always enhance side channel information if it is there. Add a pair of
> omnis suspended over the stage edge with 50 centimeters between them (18
> inches), ECM8000 will probably do fine if they don't clip on a pair of
> tracks and be happy, almost - this because PA mixes often have more reverb
> added than what fits living room playback, but live with it, don't bugger
> the PA guy for more than a wee bit of panning.

I am going to try to get them to isolate the keyboard input so that I record
it only on my own channel, and then I can place it anywhere I please in the
mix. This is during the rehearsal/ recording session, at which I am trying
multitracking and a clean "studio kinda" recording. Later at the actual
performance, I will just do a single point stereo pickup and maybe a mike on
the singer and it will all just moosh into a big fat stereo kinda recording,
with audience applause and singalong etc.

One thing that also bugs me is that I am purchasing a couple more mikes and
the H6 input module for them to be able to get the background singers and
chorus. But they already have a pair of those neat hanging mikes above the
chorus. But how the hell do I use those? They must come back to the sound
system eventually, right? Don't know if I could access them before the mixer
for my own purposes or if just using my own mikes is the easier way. This
comes up a lot in concert halls and churches and I wonder if anyone does try
to use those already installed mikes.
>
> It has happened that you have not beem completely aware of what Audition
> can do for you, you are aware that the FFT equalizer is very good at
> filtering mains hum and harmonics? - with that in mind a wee bit of hum is
> not the largest worry in the world, but buzz is, because that is wideband
> and not really possible to filter out in post.

Yes, that is news to me. The FFT equalizer? I think I have seen that, but I
didn't know that it was better than the 31 band graphic that I always depend
on at removing hum. You would think that just dunking the 60 and maybe 120
sliders would eliminate all hum, but it doesn't seem to work out that way.
Will check it out!


> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen

Gary

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier > wrote:

> I wonder if anyone does try
> to use those already installed mikes.

Never. People dedicate mics to strange locations, permanently, having to
get on tall scary ladders and invest considerable time in installation,
and then they forget they did all that and never use the mics.

Not.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[polymod]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...

Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
--scott

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As a certified installer of these systems, I'm curious about your comment
Scott.

Poly

[polymod]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message ...


"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
> --scott

You've got me there! If that is an accessory that requires electrical power,
I didn't see anything on it. It had just the little light for reading the
music, but we eliminated that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If a dampp-chaser was installed in the piano then it definitely needs power
for the 2 dehumidifiers, humidifier, and controller.
You'd see a 3 light panel which is normally installed under the keys at the
extreme treble end.

Poly

[Scott Dorsey]

polymod > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
>
>Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
>
>As a certified installer of these systems, I'm curious about your comment
>Scott.

The rod leaks a little magnetic field. Not enough to worry about unless you
stick a dynamic mike right up next to it, and it picks up some hum. Move
the mike a few inches away, and the hum goes away, like the original poster
described.

It would be unusual for anyone to be miking that way, but the original poster
has already demonstrated an interest in curious and unusual configurations.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[polymod]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...

polymod > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
>
>Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
>
>As a certified installer of these systems, I'm curious about your comment
>Scott.

The rod leaks a little magnetic field. Not enough to worry about unless you
stick a dynamic mike right up next to it, and it picks up some hum. Move
the mike a few inches away, and the hum goes away, like the original poster
described.

It would be unusual for anyone to be miking that way, but the original
poster
has already demonstrated an interest in curious and unusual configurations.
--scott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ah....thank you for the info Scott.
And there's three 'rods' in a typical grand setup. 2 Dehumidifier rods
underneath the front and rear of the soundboard, and one humidifier heater
bar close to the middle.

Poly

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/15/2015 11:59 AM, polymod wrote:
> f a dampp-chaser was installed in the piano then it definitely needs
> power for the 2 dehumidifiers, humidifier, and controller.
> You'd see a 3 light panel which is normally installed under the keys at
> the extreme treble end.

Gee, I remember when a damp-chaser (not a registered trademark) was just
a light bulb.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/15/2015 11:39 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> I am going to try to get them to isolate the keyboard input so that I record
> it only on my own channel, and then I can place it anywhere I please in the
> mix.

If "they" have a reasonable PA mixer, there's probably a spare auxiliary
send that they could use to give you a feed to your recorder. Or maybe
even a direct output from the channel that they're using for the
keyboard. Either one would probably be a mic level and would come out on
a 1/4" phone jack. You'd be responsible for all the plumbing adapters
necessary.

> One thing that also bugs me is that I am purchasing a couple more mikes and
> the H6 input module for them to be able to get the background singers and
> chorus. But they already have a pair of those neat hanging mikes above the
> chorus. But how the hell do I use those? They must come back to the sound
> system eventually, right?

I'm sure they do, somewhere. Ask around.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[polymod]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

On 3/15/2015 11:59 AM, polymod wrote:
> f a dampp-chaser was installed in the piano then it definitely needs
> power for the 2 dehumidifiers, humidifier, and controller.
> You'd see a 3 light panel which is normally installed under the keys at
> the extreme treble end.

Gee, I remember when a damp-chaser (not a registered trademark) was just
a light bulb.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yup.....and don't forget the tray of water by the pedal trap-work for the
Winter!

Poly

[Frank Stearns]

"Gary Eickmeier" > writes:
>"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
k...

snips

>One thing that also bugs me is that I am purchasing a couple more mikes and
>the H6 input module for them to be able to get the background singers and
>chorus. But they already have a pair of those neat hanging mikes above the
>chorus. But how the hell do I use those? They must come back to the sound
>system eventually, right? Don't know if I could access them before the mixer
>for my own purposes or if just using my own mikes is the easier way. This
>comes up a lot in concert halls and churches and I wonder if anyone does try
>to use those already installed mikes.

Sometimes, depends on a lot of factors. What are the microphones in question? Are
they optimally placed to serve your purpose? What kind of shape are they in? How is
the wiring back to the console? Do you have a mic splitter? (Assuming the installed
mics will be in use at the same time you record you'd need to address this.)

If those mics are not in use while you're there with your show, do you have
permission to move their connection over to your rig? Of course, you'll have the
same political issues with a splitter...and more, actually, such as who supplies
phantom and from that who gets the iso and who gets the direct?

I carry 24 track machines on all location gigs whether it's 6 mics or 20, so once in
a while -- just for fun -- I'll throw a couple of spare tracks at permanently
installed house microphones. But I never rely on them.

Typically what I find in post is that they sound mediocre at best, often because
they've been up in the air 24/7 for years and the diaphragms are full of crud. That,
and the typical 200+ feet of 50 pf/foot ****-wire used in most commercial installs
gives them that loverly "telephone" sound (or maybe the tonality just isn't very
good in general).

But if by virtue of already being up the air house mics solve a setup issue, and you
can get access to them, they might be better than nothing. But before you commit to
them and not some other solution, try to get a test recording during a rehearsal
then listen back later on good monitoring. What, exactly, are you getting?

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[Gary Eickmeier]

"polymod" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
>
> polymod > wrote:
>>"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
>>
>>Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
>>
>>As a certified installer of these systems, I'm curious about your comment
>>Scott.
>
> The rod leaks a little magnetic field. Not enough to worry about unless
> you
> stick a dynamic mike right up next to it, and it picks up some hum. Move
> the mike a few inches away, and the hum goes away, like the original
> poster
> described.
>
> It would be unusual for anyone to be miking that way, but the original
> poster
> has already demonstrated an interest in curious and unusual
> configurations.
> --scott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Ah....thank you for the info Scott.
> And there's three 'rods' in a typical grand setup. 2 Dehumidifier rods
> underneath the front and rear of the soundboard, and one humidifier heater
> bar close to the middle.
>
> Poly

Scott, why would it be unusual to be miking that way? Done all the time.

Gary

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Frank Stearns" > wrote in message
...
> "Gary Eickmeier" > writes:
>>"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
k...
>
> snips
>
>>One thing that also bugs me is that I am purchasing a couple more mikes
>>and
>>the H6 input module for them to be able to get the background singers and
>>chorus. But they already have a pair of those neat hanging mikes above the
>>chorus. But how the hell do I use those? They must come back to the sound
>>system eventually, right? Don't know if I could access them before the
>>mixer
>>for my own purposes or if just using my own mikes is the easier way. This
>>comes up a lot in concert halls and churches and I wonder if anyone does
>>try
>>to use those already installed mikes.
>
> Sometimes, depends on a lot of factors. What are the microphones in
> question? Are
> they optimally placed to serve your purpose? What kind of shape are they
> in? How is
> the wiring back to the console? Do you have a mic splitter? (Assuming the
> installed
> mics will be in use at the same time you record you'd need to address
> this.)
>
> If those mics are not in use while you're there with your show, do you
> have
> permission to move their connection over to your rig? Of course, you'll
> have the
> same political issues with a splitter...and more, actually, such as who
> supplies
> phantom and from that who gets the iso and who gets the direct?
>
> I carry 24 track machines on all location gigs whether it's 6 mics or 20,
> so once in
> a while -- just for fun -- I'll throw a couple of spare tracks at
> permanently
> installed house microphones. But I never rely on them.
>
> Typically what I find in post is that they sound mediocre at best, often
> because
> they've been up in the air 24/7 for years and the diaphragms are full of
> crud. That,
> and the typical 200+ feet of 50 pf/foot ****-wire used in most commercial
> installs
> gives them that loverly "telephone" sound (or maybe the tonality just
> isn't very
> good in general).
>
> But if by virtue of already being up the air house mics solve a setup
> issue, and you
> can get access to them, they might be better than nothing. But before you
> commit to
> them and not some other solution, try to get a test recording during a
> rehearsal
> then listen back later on good monitoring. What, exactly, are you getting?
>
> Frank
> Mobile Audio

I may try and see where their signal gets into the board and whether that is
a connection I can use. I keep a little pouch with all possible connectors
for my portable Tascam recorder. Works great most places for just capturing
the microphones that the players are using for singing or announcing. I
haven't considered wherher they would be phantom powered though. Thanks for
the reminder.

My question was mainly in general, because I often find myself betwen a rock
and a hard place trying to get the best sound but not being permitted to put
my microphone tree up on stage to get it closer and higher. I look at those
hanging house mikes with jealousy and can't help wonder what if. For this
job though, I am just using the extra two mikes I bought for the project.

Thanks all,

Gary

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> On 3/15/2015 11:59 AM, polymod wrote:
> > f a dampp-chaser was installed in the piano then it definitely needs
> > power for the 2 dehumidifiers, humidifier, and controller.
> > You'd see a 3 light panel which is normally installed under the keys at
> > the extreme treble end.
>
> Gee, I remember when a damp-chaser (not a registered trademark) was just
> a light bulb.

Modern unit dehumidifies or humidifies based on ambient humidity. Where
I live, it always the latter.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier > wrote:

> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Gary Eickmeier > wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder if anyone does try
> >> to use those already installed mikes.
> >
> > Never. People dedicate mics to strange locations, permanently, having to
> > get on tall scary ladders and invest considerable time in installation,
> > and then they forget they did all that and never use the mics.
> >
> > Not.
>
> You use them Hank?
>
> Gary

Yes, I have, where they are available, and where their positioning and
the type of mic suits what I am to do. They often work quite well. They
are often better mics than others at hand. They were often installed by
someone who knew what they were doing.

And sometimes they are **** mics randomly hung and feeding crappy wire.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier > wrote:

> "polymod" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
> >
> > polymod > wrote:
> >>"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
> >>
> >>Was there a dampchaser in that piano?
> >>
> >>As a certified installer of these systems, I'm curious about your comment
> >>Scott.
> >
> > The rod leaks a little magnetic field. Not enough to worry about unless
> > you
> > stick a dynamic mike right up next to it, and it picks up some hum. Move
> > the mike a few inches away, and the hum goes away, like the original
> > poster
> > described.
> >
> > It would be unusual for anyone to be miking that way, but the original
> > poster
> > has already demonstrated an interest in curious and unusual
> > configurations.
> > --scott
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >
> > Ah....thank you for the info Scott.
> > And there's three 'rods' in a typical grand setup. 2 Dehumidifier rods
> > underneath the front and rear of the soundboard, and one humidifier heater
> > bar close to the middle.
> >
> > Poly
>
> Scott, why would it be unusual to be miking that way? Done all the time.
>
> Gary

People who mic live pianos and record rock and other loud amplified
forms stuff the mics right into the instrument, for obvious reasons that
have nothing to do with excellent acoustic piano sound. That's what
happens part of the time.

The rest of the times pianos get recorded well, many approaches to
micropohone deployment are available and utilized to aim for the best
result for a given piece of music being played by a given ensemble in a
particular space.

Serious recordists may choose from an array of methods. All the time.

That you even wonder why it is unusual to gag the instrument with the
mics says much about what you have opportunity to learn.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich > wrote:
>
>Yes, I have, where they are available, and where their positioning and
>the type of mic suits what I am to do. They often work quite well. They
>are often better mics than others at hand. They were often installed by
>someone who knew what they were doing.
>
>And sometimes they are **** mics randomly hung and feeding crappy wire.

And the thing is, the best place for a pair of microphones for sound
reinforcement is probably not the best place for a pair of microphones
for recording.

Although often installed microphones weren't put in the best place for
either one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tom McCreadie]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>If "they" have a reasonable PA mixer, there's probably a spare auxiliary
>send that they could use to give you a feed to your recorder. Or maybe
>even a direct output from the channel that they're using for the
>keyboard. Either one would probably be a mic level and would come out on
>a 1/4" phone jack.

Typo?...should have been "line level" instead of "mic level"?

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/15/2015 7:35 PM, Tom McCreadie wrote:
>> Either one would probably be a mic level and would come out on
>> >a 1/4" phone jack.
> Typo?...should have been "line level" instead of "mic level"?

That's not a typo, it's a brain malfunction. Yes, these outputs are
likely to be at line level.

Actually, some mixers do have mic level outputs, though usually just the
main mix output. The VLZ series of Mackies do (with a mic/line switch
for the main outputs), but that has a different primary function than to
feed a recorder. It's so that you can bring the mixer into a church or
lecture hall that has a microphone that goes to an amplifier in the
janitor's closet, replace the mic with the mixer, and have some control
over the mix, as long as the janitor is there to turn on the "sound
system." The classic Shure M-67 had the same things 30 years before Mackie.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[JackA]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:56:12 AM UTC-4, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> I am starting a new learning curve in the area of multitracking and gaining
> new respect for that art and science. My boss's daughter is trying to start
> a new group for gospel songs and I have volunteered to do the recording. It
> seemed ideal for multitracking, so I have four AT 2050 mikes and the Zoom H6
> to begin the process. I placed the mikes one under the lid of the piano, two
> in front of the drum kit, and one on the singer. Learned quickly that I
> needed a pop filter for her, but also need to keep her at a consistent
> distance.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pzxgg74
>
> I was surprised at how good they sounded (technically anyway) when mixed
> down and played back on my system. First the drum kit, then the piano mike,
> then a clip of the mixdown:
>
> https://soundcloud.com/eickmeier-1/drums-wider-wav?in=eickmeier-1/sets/multimiking
>
> There was a hum coming from somewhere, so we checked all wiring and speakers
> in the house (a church) and finally isolated it down to the piano mike. Made
> no sense, but the mike that was on the acoustic piano was humming on its
> channel for no electrical reason. I moved the mike a few inches and that
> helped a great deal, still don't know why. You can still hear some of it on
> the piano clip above.
>
> The real session will be this coming Tuesday, and there will be backing
> singers, an organ, and a keyboard added to the mix. I bought the little two
> XLR additional input to the H6 to turn it into a six channel recorder, and I
> can hang another recorder off the church's sound board and mix it in sync
> with my material to catch the keyboard directly. I bought two new caradioid
> condenser mikes, the AT 2041 (cheap) mikes, for the backing singers and/or
> chorus.
>
> So I have gained a new respect for the art of multitracking, which is where
> the real art is in the recording industry. So many new things to learn and
> try, from how many tracks to placement, loudness, mixing with ambient
> sounds, and I haven't even begun to explore the new world of reverb effects
> that can be incorporated. I am praying that the natural reverb in the church
> will be sufficient to not need artificial reverb, because I am not in as dry
> an environment as most of you are dealing with.
>
> It is an annoyance that most sound boards will not be mixed in stereo but I
> suppose that is to be expected and we wouldn't want them to decide our
> stereo placement anyway. For this one, I am getting them to turn off every
> feed but the keyboard, so I can get that cleanly by itself in case I want to
> place it myself. We will turn the house speakers off or down low so my mikes
> don't get that mooshed in with what they are doing. And we will pay
> particular attention to the humming piano! Maybe it was just the particular
> XLR cable that was on that mike. Can XLRs hum if one of the wires is coming
> loose?
>
> Gary Eickmeier

Lose the drummer with the backwards cap. Otherwise, pretty good!!!

Jack

[Gary Eickmeier]

Well, maybe not so much enjoyment as... panic. I went over there last night
to observe the whole group getting ready for the recording session that I
had all worked out last week. They were changing everything. Adding
instruments, closing the piano lid, drums a lot farther away, everyone on
microphone into church sound system as if for the live performance. Then out
comes a huge plexiglass screen to go around the drums. I've got to
contemplate what to do about mike placement to be able to highlight some
elements while allowing them to balance themselves so that they can hear
each other and try to not let it dissolve into a huge, fat mono mess.

Well, I think the correct philosophy will be to not worry about audiophile
quality of the stereo because all they are going to hear is the words to the
song and the religious moment.

Gary