Filter out noise on AC?

[Jasonst]

Summary: Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out
transient AC noise?

Background:
I am using some audio equipment and computer electronics in my home
recording studio.
Whenever the in room portable AC compressor turns on there is a noise spike
on the AC that causes the electronics to randomly reset to other setting and
also there a loud pop in the audio output.
I put a surge protector extension cord that claimed to also filter noise to
40db up to so may ? khz and plugged the affected electronics into it.
That did cause a great improvement (pop not as loud, but the electronics
will still reset or randomly adust to another setting.) Most annoying when
in the middle of a recording.

Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out the
transient noise? Hardware, computer stores sell surge preventors with some
filtering but nothing more effective then I already bought. I dont need a
surge protector but a very effective noise filter.

I am a electronic engineer very familiar with filters so I understand the
concept but just want to buy something plug and play for a simple solution.

any thoughts appreciated.

thankyou

[Marc Wielage]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:38:17 -0700, Jasonst wrote
(in message <3EXkb.3915$5c2.2603@okepread03>):

> Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out
> transient AC noise?
<--------------------------------snip-------------------------------->

You might try putting the most sensitive equipment on a UPS (uninterruptible
power supply), provided the AC current it puts out is true sine-wave and very
stable.

All the higher end APC UPS-Pro devices will do this. I've used this in a
rack for my equipment in my studio, and it's never failed at filtering out
any surges, clicks, hash, static, noise, and anything else coming into my
building.

--MFW

[Kurt Albershardt]

Jasonst wrote:
>
> Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out the
> transient noise? Hardware, computer stores sell surge preventors with some
> filtering but nothing more effective then I already bought. I dont need a
> surge protector but a very effective noise filter.

Putting a filter on the A/C might work better than putting it on the
DAW. Neither will helop much if there's radiated RF as well as
powerline noise. Do you have access to a UPS? Put the computer on the
UPS, pull the UPS cord and start the A/C. If you still get the noise,
you have an RF problem.




> I am a electronic engineer very familiar with filters so I understand the
> concept but just want to buy something plug and play for a simple solution.

Then you'll understand that properly filtering a 60 Hz powerline will
take a rather large inductor or transformer. The filters in 99+% of
power strips (even the preimum ones) don't have much effect below 100
kHz and their small size has the effect of raising the source impedance
of the powerline, often exacerbating the problem.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <3EXkb.3915$5c2.2603@okepread03>, Jasonst > wrote:
>Summary: Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out
>transient AC noise?

It's easy to filter AC line noise, but the problem is that if there is trash
on the AC line, it usually pollutes the whole power system, which radiates RF.

>Background:
>I am using some audio equipment and computer electronics in my home
>recording studio.
>Whenever the in room portable AC compressor turns on there is a noise spike
>on the AC that causes the electronics to randomly reset to other setting and
>also there a loud pop in the audio output.
>I put a surge protector extension cord that claimed to also filter noise to
>40db up to so may ? khz and plugged the affected electronics into it.
>That did cause a great improvement (pop not as loud, but the electronics
>will still reset or randomly adust to another setting.) Most annoying when
>in the middle of a recording.

You have a grounding problem in your building, almost certainly. Or else
the motor is pulling the power line down too much when it starts, and you
are seeing a voltage sag.

You can do all sorts of things to _hide_ the problem with filters and
regulators, but you'd be better off fixing it.

>I am a electronic engineer very familiar with filters so I understand the
>concept but just want to buy something plug and play for a simple solution.

Then you know that a filter that handles appreciable power is going to have
a huge honking inductor in it. C&H Sales usually has some high grade ones
for surplus, or you can go the ferroresonant transformer route with a big
Sola box.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[anthony.gosnell]

"Jasonst" > wrote
> Whenever the in room portable AC compressor turns on there is a noise
spike
> on the AC that causes the electronics to randomly reset to other setting
and
> also there a loud pop in the audio output.

Do you have three phase power? If so you could put the AC onto
a different phase along with your fridge and any other noisy devices.

--
Anthony Gosnell

to reply remove nospam.

[Ty Ford]

In Article <3EXkb.3915$5c2.2603@okepread03>, "Jasonst" >
wrote:
>Summary: Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out
>transient AC noise?
>
>Background:
>I am using some audio equipment and computer electronics in my home
>recording studio.
>Whenever the in room portable AC compressor turns on there is a noise spike
>on the AC that causes the electronics to randomly reset to other setting and
>also there a loud pop in the audio output.
>I put a surge protector extension cord that claimed to also filter noise to
>40db up to so may ? khz and plugged the affected electronics into it.
>That did cause a great improvement (pop not as loud, but the electronics
>will still reset or randomly adust to another setting.) Most annoying when
>in the middle of a recording.
>
>Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out the
>transient noise? Hardware, computer stores sell surge preventors with some
>filtering but nothing more effective then I already bought. I dont need a
>surge protector but a very effective noise filter.
>
>I am a electronic engineer very familiar with filters so I understand the
>concept but just want to buy something plug and play for a simple solution.
>
>any thoughts appreciated.
>
>thankyou


Not all noise is transmitted via the power line. Some of it is "broadcast"
through the air. Filters may not be able to catch that stuff.

Regards,

Ty Ford

**Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address.
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[P Stamler]

>Do you have three phase power? If so you could put the AC onto
>a different phase along with your fridge and any other noisy devices.

Excellent advice. Meanwhile, if that's not enough or not possible, I've had
good luck with the Monster Cable powerline filters. I mostly use the HT800.

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Tulley]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:38:17 -0700, "Jasonst" >
wrote:

>Summary: Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out
>transient AC noise?
>
>Background:
>I am using some audio equipment and computer electronics in my home
>recording studio.
>Whenever the in room portable AC compressor turns on there is a noise spike
>on the AC that causes the electronics to randomly reset to other setting and
>also there a loud pop in the audio output.
>I put a surge protector extension cord that claimed to also filter noise to
>40db up to so may ? khz and plugged the affected electronics into it.
>That did cause a great improvement (pop not as loud, but the electronics
>will still reset or randomly adust to another setting.) Most annoying when
>in the middle of a recording.

I don't think that a plug-in filter will help, because it isn't a
noise problem. If you were to record what happens to your line voltage
when the A/C compressor kicks in, you would probably find that the
line voltage sags below 95V for several cycles. The power supplies in
your equipment are dropping out of regulation, causing errors or
resets.

You need a fast-acting voltage regulator or on-line UPS to protect
against this. Or, better yet, move the A/C to a circuit on another
phase.

Mike T.

[Jasonst]

thanks...I think your all right.

Ill probably look for a cheap UPS and backup my computer while im at it.

thanks for the help

Where can if find a bargain UPS on order of 800va?

"Jasonst" > wrote in message
news:3EXkb.3915$5c2.2603@okepread03...
> Summary: Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter
out
> transient AC noise?
>
> Background:
> I am using some audio equipment and computer electronics in my home
> recording studio.
> Whenever the in room portable AC compressor turns on there is a noise
spike
> on the AC that causes the electronics to randomly reset to other setting
and
> also there a loud pop in the audio output.
> I put a surge protector extension cord that claimed to also filter noise
to
> 40db up to so may ? khz and plugged the affected electronics into it.
> That did cause a great improvement (pop not as loud, but the electronics
> will still reset or randomly adust to another setting.) Most annoying
when
> in the middle of a recording.
>
> Where online can I buy a simple plug in wall filter to filter out the
> transient noise? Hardware, computer stores sell surge preventors with
some
> filtering but nothing more effective then I already bought. I dont need a
> surge protector but a very effective noise filter.
>
> I am a electronic engineer very familiar with filters so I understand the
> concept but just want to buy something plug and play for a simple
solution.
>
> any thoughts appreciated.
>
> thankyou
>
>

[W. Williams]

"Jasonst" wrote:
> thanks...I think your all right.
>
> Ill probably look for a cheap UPS and backup my computer while im at it.
>
> thanks for the help
>
> Where can if find a bargain UPS on order of 800va?
>

This is not a good idea. Rather spend a little extra and get a decent UPS,
as cheap models can do more harm than good. Most of these are switching
rather than inline, meaning that you are still getting the "dirty" supply
anyway. What you want is a nice pure sine wave. They also have a longish
delay before switching over and this can affect sensitive equipment.

A UPS is a good idea regardless of whether it solves your problem, but get
something decent that supplies your power via the batteries (outputting a
clean sine wave) and has decent protection circuitry and fuses.
Overspeccing on what you think you need is also a good idea. I have seen
several instances where a UPS that started out as sufficient is later
hopelessly overloaded by new equipment that was added subsequently.

W

[Jasonst]

what do you think about the APC Smart UPS 1000va?
thank you

"W. Williams" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jasonst" wrote:
> > thanks...I think your all right.
> >
> > Ill probably look for a cheap UPS and backup my computer while im at it.
> >
> > thanks for the help
> >
> > Where can if find a bargain UPS on order of 800va?
> >
>
> This is not a good idea. Rather spend a little extra and get a decent
UPS,
> as cheap models can do more harm than good. Most of these are switching
> rather than inline, meaning that you are still getting the "dirty" supply
> anyway. What you want is a nice pure sine wave. They also have a longish
> delay before switching over and this can affect sensitive equipment.
>
> A UPS is a good idea regardless of whether it solves your problem, but get
> something decent that supplies your power via the batteries (outputting a
> clean sine wave) and has decent protection circuitry and fuses.
> Overspeccing on what you think you need is also a good idea. I have seen
> several instances where a UPS that started out as sufficient is later
> hopelessly overloaded by new equipment that was added subsequently.
>
> W
>
>

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

> wrote:

> I am using some audio equipment and computer electronics in my home
> recording studio.
> Whenever the in room portable AC compressor turns on there is a noise spike
> on the AC that causes the electronics to randomly reset to other setting and
> also there a loud pop in the audio output.

If your electronics are randomly resetting then you have more than just
a powerline noise problem. You've got to brown out for several cycles
in order for numerous pieces of gear to all reset themselves. Unless
you've got really crappy audio gear, most of it will have fairly large
power supply caps that will carry them through a brief drop.

Like another poster said, the AC's startup surge must be seriously
pulling down your power line for a moment. A pretty long moment too,
I'd guess if it's manifesting itself this way. I can think of a bunch
of different problems that would cause this problem. Maybe there's
something wrong with your air conditioner that's causing it to pull too
much startup current. And obviously there's some impedance in your
power wiring that is causing the voltage drop. This impedance must be
upstream of where the air conditioner's power splits off from your
audio gear's power. So either you have them both on the same mains
circuit, or the problem is happening before the breaker panel.

Go to Radio Shack and buy a plug-in AC voltmeter. It plugs right in to
the wall outlet and monitors voltage. Try plugging it in a few
different places around the house and see how it reacts when the air
conditioner kicks in. See if it's the same all over the house.
You should have an outlet right at the panel. If the voltage there
drops significantly, call the power company and have them fix the
wiring coming into your house. If it doesn't drop there but does drop
everywhere else in the house, call an electrician and have them fix the
wiring inside your house. If it only drops on the circuit the AC is
on, then either move your audio gear to another circuit or else call an
HVAC contractor to come and fix your air conditioner.


ulysses

[Eric K. Weber]

A good suggestion to actually use a meter to check the voltages, preferably
with min / max hold..... Check other outlets in the house as the A/C
switches on...

You may have a more serious electrical hazard which needs to be fixed.....
do some of your incandesant lights dim and others get bright and burn out
frequently? If so you may have a neutral problem either in your fuse box
or on the power companys side.... Hopefully you are not trying to use the
same circuit that feeds the A/C unit??

Rgds:
Eric

[Jasonst]

yes...everything is on the same circuit at the Air Cond. I dont have a
choice there really considering what it would cost to bring another circuit
on the other side of the house where recording studio is. I did a test and
ran an extenion cord across the house and ran the effect unit that way.
There was no problem then with the effects unit. I think the effects unit,
as it runs off a 115/15vac transformer just does not have the dynamic range
to deal with the ACvoltage sag whent he Air cond comes on. Short of a house
new circuit, I think the UPS I got should help a lot. Im gonna run computer
and other sensitive off of it. I got a APC Smart UPS 1000VA. It has a
clean sine wave output. That should be plent off capacity for the computer
and other equipment I have. IN the mean time, my wife is gonna have to deal
the extension cord duct taped to the floor across the house.

thanks for the help!

"Eric K. Weber" > wrote in message
...
> A good suggestion to actually use a meter to check the voltages,
preferably
> with min / max hold..... Check other outlets in the house as the A/C
> switches on...
>
> You may have a more serious electrical hazard which needs to be fixed.....
> do some of your incandesant lights dim and others get bright and burn out
> frequently? If so you may have a neutral problem either in your fuse box
> or on the power companys side.... Hopefully you are not trying to use
the
> same circuit that feeds the A/C unit??
>
> Rgds:
> Eric
>
>

[W. Williams]

"Jasonst" wrote:
> what do you think about the APC Smart UPS 1000va?
> thank you

Hi Jason

I don't have personal experience with this model, but I believe it is a
line-interactive UPS. I have used a few of the APC line-interactive models,
particularly from the Matrix range and found these very effective at dealing
with an inconsistent supply. This range uses galvanic isolation, which
effectively isolates the input from the output. It does not, however,
provide a sine wave output. This is fine for most uses, but could affect
sensitive equipment. There is a white paper on the APC site that explains
the differences between the different UPS systems.

The only way that you will know for sure whether it solves your problem is
to try it. I always ask the dealer whether he will allow me to demo a unit
before I buy to see whether it will suit my requirements. I live in an area
where the power often goes out for anything from a couple of seconds to
about twenty minutes and also varies by up to 20V either way, so a UPS is a
necessity. An overloaded UPS can cause more harm than good and will also
let you down on that one occasion that you actually need it.

I usually hook everything that I plan to run on the UPS and let it run for a
few hours to ensure that it is fully charged. I then try flicking the power
off and on quickly several times while monitoring the output for
fluctuations. I then switch it off and see how long the UPS runs under the
full load. Calculate how long you need and then double it to allow for
future expansion.

I bought a 3kVA unit just less than two years ago to run our web server and
all the equipment in our studio. When I bought it the unit ran for almost
90 minutes fully loaded, at 30% of the maximum recommended load. Now it can
only manage 30 minutes. The batteries are still at nearly 90% efficiency,
but the load is now nearly 60% of the maximum recommended.

The only other advice I have is don't load the UPS with non-critical
equipment (lamps, scanners, printers, etc) and particularly avoid laser
printers.

W

[Scott Dorsey]

Jasonst > wrote:
>yes...everything is on the same circuit at the Air Cond. I dont have a
>choice there really considering what it would cost to bring another circuit
>on the other side of the house where recording studio is.

Depending on what kind of current the AC unit takes, this is almost certainly
a violation of the electrical code part 440-34. And it's certainly a REALLY
bad idea.

I did a test and
>ran an extenion cord across the house and ran the effect unit that way.
>There was no problem then with the effects unit. I think the effects unit,
>as it runs off a 115/15vac transformer just does not have the dynamic range
>to deal with the ACvoltage sag whent he Air cond comes on. Short of a house
>new circuit, I think the UPS I got should help a lot. Im gonna run computer
>and other sensitive off of it. I got a APC Smart UPS 1000VA. It has a
>clean sine wave output. That should be plent off capacity for the computer
>and other equipment I have. IN the mean time, my wife is gonna have to deal
>the extension cord duct taped to the floor across the house.

Just get some Romex and pull a proper line from the panel.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article <TE1mb.12208$5c2.8007@okepread03> writes:

> yes...everything is on the same circuit at the Air Cond. I dont have a
> choice there really considering what it would cost to bring another circuit
> on the other side of the house where recording studio is.

Sure you have another choice - live with the problem. Or you could
move. Unless it's an unusual building, it will cost you about the
price of an effect unit (unless you're in the habit of buying them on
eBay for $25) to get an electrician to run a new circuit to your
studio and that will pay off not only in solving the problem you have
now but in averting problems with new equipment. Just bite the bullet,
even if you're a renter.

> I did a test and
> ran an extenion cord across the house and ran the effect unit that way.
> There was no problem then with the effects unit.

What more proof do you need? Do the right thing.

> I think the effects unit,
> as it runs off a 115/15vac transformer just does not have the dynamic range
> to deal with the ACvoltage sag whent he Air cond comes on. Short of a house
> new circuit, I think the UPS I got should help a lot. Im gonna run computer
> and other sensitive off of it.

Bad analysis. A UPS won't help the problem because it doesn't do
anything until the voltage gets low enough so that it thinks there's a
power outage. A line conditioner that regulates the voltage might
work, but not only do you need to keep the voltage fairly stable, but
you need to filter out the spikes (increases in voltage) that the UPS
will ignore.

> In the mean time, my wife is gonna have to deal
> the extension cord duct taped to the floor across the house.

For almost three years now, I've had a piece of mic cable running from
the room with the computers to the living room so I can listen to
Internet streaming radio programs while I'm on the couch reading the
newspaper. But then I don't have a wife. I could run a permanent cable
but I'm just too damn lazy.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Jasonst]

ok...thanks...good advice...

The UPS i got was was pretty cheap for a 1000va unit....only $55. So not
much $ invested if there is a problem other non sinewave issues. It is used
(obviously for that price) so I know the batteries will not provide full
capacity, but I rarely have power outages (especially when on my computer)
and this is primarily to deal with the my poorly conditioned residence AC
distribution when the Air Cond drags down the voltage at startup.

I used a couple websites to estimate the sizing. I think they are pretty
conservative as is and add 25% margin and on top of that use a .7 power
factor applied...or sized it at 1.4x the wattage plus 25% margin. For the
items I want to put on the unit they recommended about 725VA unit and I got
a 1000va unit.

fer sure I will be putting items on it that need the improved regulation or
backup.

thanks again



"W. Williams" > wrote in message
...
> "Jasonst" wrote:
> > what do you think about the APC Smart UPS 1000va?
> > thank you
>
> Hi Jason
>
> I don't have personal experience with this model, but I believe it is a
> line-interactive UPS. I have used a few of the APC line-interactive
models,
> particularly from the Matrix range and found these very effective at
dealing
> with an inconsistent supply. This range uses galvanic isolation, which
> effectively isolates the input from the output. It does not, however,
> provide a sine wave output. This is fine for most uses, but could affect
> sensitive equipment. There is a white paper on the APC site that explains
> the differences between the different UPS systems.
>
> The only way that you will know for sure whether it solves your problem is
> to try it. I always ask the dealer whether he will allow me to demo a
unit
> before I buy to see whether it will suit my requirements. I live in an
area
> where the power often goes out for anything from a couple of seconds to
> about twenty minutes and also varies by up to 20V either way, so a UPS is
a
> necessity. An overloaded UPS can cause more harm than good and will also
> let you down on that one occasion that you actually need it.
>
> I usually hook everything that I plan to run on the UPS and let it run for
a
> few hours to ensure that it is fully charged. I then try flicking the
power
> off and on quickly several times while monitoring the output for
> fluctuations. I then switch it off and see how long the UPS runs under
the
> full load. Calculate how long you need and then double it to allow for
> future expansion.
>
> I bought a 3kVA unit just less than two years ago to run our web server
and
> all the equipment in our studio. When I bought it the unit ran for almost
> 90 minutes fully loaded, at 30% of the maximum recommended load. Now it
can
> only manage 30 minutes. The batteries are still at nearly 90% efficiency,
> but the load is now nearly 60% of the maximum recommended.
>
> The only other advice I have is don't load the UPS with non-critical
> equipment (lamps, scanners, printers, etc) and particularly avoid laser
> printers.
>
> W
>
>
>

[Jasonst]

Wow....now there is some bogus advice..from both of you........are you for
real?
"Jasonst" > wrote in message
news:TE1mb.12208$5c2.8007@okepread03...
> yes...everything is on the same circuit at the Air Cond. I dont have a
> choice there really considering what it would cost to bring another
circuit
> on the other side of the house where recording studio is. I did a test
and
> ran an extenion cord across the house and ran the effect unit that way.
> There was no problem then with the effects unit. I think the effects
unit,
> as it runs off a 115/15vac transformer just does not have the dynamic
range
> to deal with the ACvoltage sag whent he Air cond comes on. Short of a
house
> new circuit, I think the UPS I got should help a lot. Im gonna run
computer
> and other sensitive off of it. I got a APC Smart UPS 1000VA. It has a
> clean sine wave output. That should be plent off capacity for the
computer
> and other equipment I have. IN the mean time, my wife is gonna have to
deal
> the extension cord duct taped to the floor across the house.
>
> thanks for the help!
>
> "Eric K. Weber" > wrote in message
> ...
> > A good suggestion to actually use a meter to check the voltages,
> preferably
> > with min / max hold..... Check other outlets in the house as the A/C
> > switches on...
> >
> > You may have a more serious electrical hazard which needs to be
fixed.....
> > do some of your incandesant lights dim and others get bright and burn
out
> > frequently? If so you may have a neutral problem either in your fuse
box
> > or on the power companys side.... Hopefully you are not trying to use
> the
> > same circuit that feeds the A/C unit??
> >
> > Rgds:
> > Eric
> >
> >
>
>

[Jasonst]

LOL...now thats funny......running a 20W device off an extension cord is a
electrical code violation. You should write for Lettermen.

FOFL

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Jasonst > wrote:
> >yes...everything is on the same circuit at the Air Cond. I dont have a
> >choice there really considering what it would cost to bring another
circuit
> >on the other side of the house where recording studio is.
>
> Depending on what kind of current the AC unit takes, this is almost
certainly
> a violation of the electrical code part 440-34. And it's certainly a
REALLY
> bad idea.
>
> I did a test and
> >ran an extenion cord across the house and ran the effect unit that way.
> >There was no problem then with the effects unit. I think the effects
unit,
> >as it runs off a 115/15vac transformer just does not have the dynamic
range
> >to deal with the ACvoltage sag whent he Air cond comes on. Short of a
house
> >new circuit, I think the UPS I got should help a lot. Im gonna run
computer
> >and other sensitive off of it. I got a APC Smart UPS 1000VA. It has a
> >clean sine wave output. That should be plent off capacity for the
computer
> >and other equipment I have. IN the mean time, my wife is gonna have to
deal
> >the extension cord duct taped to the floor across the house.
>
> Just get some Romex and pull a proper line from the panel.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Jasonst > wrote:
>LOL...now thats funny......running a 20W device off an extension cord is a
>electrical code violation. You should write for Lettermen.

The cord isn't the violation. The cord might be okay (depends on the numbers..
with a long cord the drop can be considerable). The violation is running the
AC on a circuit that is shared with other loads. Check out the book.

Just get some Romex and do it right.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Jasonst > wrote:

> Wow....now there is some bogus advice..from both of you........are you for
> real?

You think it's a bad idea to actually measure the problem to see where
it's coming from and how bad it is? Or you think it's a bad idea to
have the problem fixed once you find it?
Remember, you came here asking for help with your problem. It's not my
fault your problem is more serious than you realize. You have an
unsafe situation in your house. You need to get it fixed, and a UPS
will neither eliminate the dangerous situation nor eliminate the
brownout condition causing your problem.

Are you familiar with Ohm's Law? E=IR. The voltage drop you're
experiencing is caused by the resistance in your wiring and the current
going through it. This voltage drop and the current cause *power* to
dissipate in the wiring (P=EI). That power is dissipated in the form
of heat. Your problem *is* severe, and it constitutes a real fire
hazard. Get it fixed. It is not at all unusual for houses to burn
down and people to die from exactly this cause. This is why we have
all these building and safety codes.

If you don't believe me, call an electrician and ask them. If you
think I'm so full of **** you don't need to bother getting another
opinion, then why did you ask?

ulysses

> "Jasonst" > wrote in message
> news:TE1mb.12208$5c2.8007@okepread03...
> > yes...everything is on the same circuit at the Air Cond. I dont have a
> > choice there really considering what it would cost to bring another
> circuit
> > on the other side of the house where recording studio is. I did a test
> and
> > ran an extenion cord across the house and ran the effect unit that way.
> > There was no problem then with the effects unit. I think the effects
> unit,
> > as it runs off a 115/15vac transformer just does not have the dynamic
> range
> > to deal with the ACvoltage sag whent he Air cond comes on. Short of a
> house
> > new circuit, I think the UPS I got should help a lot. Im gonna run
> computer
> > and other sensitive off of it. I got a APC Smart UPS 1000VA. It has a
> > clean sine wave output. That should be plent off capacity for the
> computer
> > and other equipment I have. IN the mean time, my wife is gonna have to
> deal
> > the extension cord duct taped to the floor across the house.
> >
> > thanks for the help!
> >
> > "Eric K. Weber" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > A good suggestion to actually use a meter to check the voltages,
> > preferably
> > > with min / max hold..... Check other outlets in the house as the A/C
> > > switches on...
> > >
> > > You may have a more serious electrical hazard which needs to be
> fixed.....
> > > do some of your incandesant lights dim and others get bright and burn
> out
> > > frequently? If so you may have a neutral problem either in your fuse
> box
> > > or on the power companys side.... Hopefully you are not trying to use
> > the
> > > same circuit that feeds the A/C unit??
> > >
> > > Rgds:
> > > Eric
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mike Rivers]

In article <qbimb.14864$5c2.7169@okepread03> writes:

> The UPS i got was was pretty cheap for a 1000va unit....

> I rarely have power outages (especially when on my computer)
> and this is primarily to deal with the my poorly conditioned residence AC
> distribution when the Air Cond drags down the voltage at startup.

Slow down a minute. Is your problem that some of your equipment (like
a computer) quits when the line voltage drops due to the air
conditioner starting? Or is it that you get noise spikes when the air
conditioner starts? If the former, then a UPS will help you.

If you're getting noise pulses (clicks and pops), then it won't help.
This is RF noise generated by the air conditioner and your problem
isn't that you simply have low voltage for a couple of seconds.

Also, a UPS isn't a regulator, it's an emergency backup unit. It isn't
there for the purpose of keeping things running smoothly, it's to keep
things running until you can shut them down or wait out the power
outage if you're sure it's going to be short term.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[S O'Neill]

Jasonst wrote:

> LOL...now thats funny......running a 20W device off an extension cord is a
> electrical code violation.

I'd like to get one of those 20W air conditioners. In fact, the whole
state of California would. Do you mean 20A (big difference)? That's a
violation if it has a normal 15A plug on it. Either way, the fire
marshal will make you take it out.

[Jasonst]

look retard........i ran a guitar effects pedal off of an extension chord to
another outlet/circuit in the house......this to determine if the portable
conditioner in the office where the recording equipment is, was causing the
voltage droop and thus cuasing the effects unit was dropping out. and when
I did that, the effect unit worked fine when the air cond compressor would
turn on and off. So that proves the following:
1) Its not radiated noise
2) it IS a voltage drop issue due to the AC being on the same circuit as all
the office outlets.
3) a UPS will be an excellent device to regulate out the voltage sag to run
the sensitive equipment off of.

thank you for all the help........except for retardo......who doesnt know
his asshole form a hole in the ground.

"S O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
> Jasonst wrote:
>
> > LOL...now thats funny......running a 20W device off an extension cord is
a
> > electrical code violation.
>
> I'd like to get one of those 20W air conditioners. In fact, the whole
> state of California would. Do you mean 20A (big difference)? That's a
> violation if it has a normal 15A plug on it. Either way, the fire
> marshal will make you take it out.
>

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Jasonst wrote:

> thank you for all the help........except for retardo......who doesnt know
> his asshole form a hole in the ground.

It occurs to me that you are probably just such a ****ing genius that
you have no goddmaned business here in the first place. Hopefully you
now realize that fully and will behave accordingly. Whatever problems
you may have will be easily solved by yourself, so save some typing.

--
ha

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Jasonst > wrote:

> 1) Its not radiated noise

right.

> 2) it IS a voltage drop issue due to the AC being on the same circuit as all
> the office outlets.

right.

> 3) a UPS will be an excellent device to regulate out the voltage sag to run
> the sensitive equipment off of.

Wrong. I don't think you understand what a UPS does. It doesn't do
anything until a power outage occurs. A brief voltage sag is unlikely
to be eliminated. There are UPSs you can buy that *always* provide
power from their battery-powered inverter, which would solve your
problem. But they cost a lot more. You mentioned going for a cheap
one, so you will not be getting one of these more unusual,
special-purpose types.

You really do just need to get an electrician to check out your wiring.
You've succesfully narrowed down the problem to a small area, so it's
not such a big deal. I originally assumed you were talking about a
large installed air conditioner, which should be on its own circuit. A
small window conditioner still deserves its own circuit, but the fact
that a smaller unit is causing this problem points an even pointier
finger at your wiring.

> thank you for all the help........except for retardo......who doesnt know
> his asshole form a hole in the ground.

You know, the quality of the help you get is entirely dependent on the
good will you extend toward those people who are donating their spare
time to answer your questions. Be polite, even to the posters whose
answers you don't find value in, and you'll get a much more helpful,
positive response from the rest of us.

ulysses

[Mike Rivers]

In article <WjEmb.14988$5c2.3445@okepread03> writes:

> .......i ran a guitar effects pedal off of an extension chord to
> another outlet/circuit in the house......this to determine if the portable
> conditioner in the office where the recording equipment is, was causing the
> voltage droop and thus cuasing the effects unit was dropping out. and when
> I did that, the effect unit worked fine when the air cond compressor would
> turn on and off. So that proves the following:
> 1) Its not radiated noise

Not necessarily. The noise could be radiated into the power line, and
by the time it goes back to the breaker box and back to the room
through the extension cord, it could be sufficiently filtered so as
not to affect the effect pedal. However, I will concede that effect
pedals aren't very well isolated from power line effects.

> 3) a UPS will be an excellent device to regulate out the voltage sag to run
> the sensitive equipment off of.

No, a UPS DOES NOT REGULATE. A regulator regulates.

While I can see an argument to running the air conditioner off a long
extension cord, I don't see any problem with running a small effect
pedal through one. You won't burn the house down doing that. However
it's a valid point that if there's enough voltage drop in the wiring
to the air conditioner to cause a significant sag (have you ever
actually measured it?) then the wiring really isn't adequate and there
may be a safety risk.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Jasonst]

ahhh...i see you all flunked out of Devry institute of technology. Probably
trouble picking up the resistor color code huh? Maybe you can get a job at
Radio shack....they all seem about 1/2 chromosome short of a full
deck.....you should fit in.


"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1067138608k@trad...
>
> In article <WjEmb.14988$5c2.3445@okepread03> writes:
>
> > .......i ran a guitar effects pedal off of an extension chord to
> > another outlet/circuit in the house......this to determine if the
portable
> > conditioner in the office where the recording equipment is, was causing
the
> > voltage droop and thus cuasing the effects unit was dropping out. and
when
> > I did that, the effect unit worked fine when the air cond compressor
would
> > turn on and off. So that proves the following:
> > 1) Its not radiated noise
>
> Not necessarily. The noise could be radiated into the power line, and
> by the time it goes back to the breaker box and back to the room
> through the extension cord, it could be sufficiently filtered so as
> not to affect the effect pedal. However, I will concede that effect
> pedals aren't very well isolated from power line effects.
>
> > 3) a UPS will be an excellent device to regulate out the voltage sag to
run
> > the sensitive equipment off of.
>
> No, a UPS DOES NOT REGULATE. A regulator regulates.
>
> While I can see an argument to running the air conditioner off a long
> extension cord, I don't see any problem with running a small effect
> pedal through one. You won't burn the house down doing that. However
> it's a valid point that if there's enough voltage drop in the wiring
> to the air conditioner to cause a significant sag (have you ever
> actually measured it?) then the wiring really isn't adequate and there
> may be a safety risk.
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Tracy Wintermute]

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:01:13 -0800, "Jasonst" >
trolled (and I bit) :

>ahhh...i see you all flunked out of Devry institute of technology.

True Story:
I once worked with an honors grad from Devry. The day he was handed
his first paycheck, he opened it, looked it over, and asked me " what
is the difference between 'gross pay' and 'net pay' ?"

I have had the utmost respect for Devry ever since.

Sadly, in this troll's case, a lowly fuse or circuit breaker will
likely prevent natural selection from running its course... but then
again..



====================
Tracy Wintermute

Rushcreek Ranch
====================

[Mike Rivers]

In article <DpXmb.16669$5c2.10350@okepread03> writes:

> ahhh...i see you all flunked out of Devry institute of technology. Probably
> trouble picking up the resistor color code huh? Maybe you can get a job at
> Radio shack....they all seem about 1/2 chromosome short of a full
> deck.....you should fit in.

Uh ... just what is this based on? The fact that I told you to run
your effect box through an extension cord until you could afford to get
your house rewired, but not to run your air conditioner through an
extension cord?

Maybe you should just burn your house down. We'd all be better off for
it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Jasonst]

ahhhhhh Defry institute of technology......splains a lot.
"Tracy Wintermute" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:01:13 -0800, "Jasonst" >
> trolled (and I bit) :
>
> >ahhh...i see you all flunked out of Devry institute of technology.
>
> True Story:
> I once worked with an honors grad from Devry. The day he was handed
> his first paycheck, he opened it, looked it over, and asked me " what
> is the difference between 'gross pay' and 'net pay' ?"
>
> I have had the utmost respect for Devry ever since.
>
> Sadly, in this troll's case, a lowly fuse or circuit breaker will
> likely prevent natural selection from running its course... but then
> again..
>
>
>
> ====================
> Tracy Wintermute
>
> Rushcreek Ranch
> ====================

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Jasonst > wrote:

> ahhh...i see you all flunked out of Devry institute of technology. Probably
> trouble picking up the resistor color code huh? Maybe you can get a job at
> Radio shack....they all seem about 1/2 chromosome short of a full
> deck.....you should fit in.

If we can fit in like your head fits in your ass then we be genius. I
figure you're smart enough not to have had to post here in the first,
second or third place. You just didn't realize how smart you really are.

--
ha

[W. Williams]

"Mike Rivers" wrote:

<snipped>

> Also, a UPS isn't a regulator, it's an emergency backup unit. It isn't
> there for the purpose of keeping things running smoothly, it's to keep
> things running until you can shut them down or wait out the power
> outage if you're sure it's going to be short term.

Mike, that depends on the UPS:
* An online UPS will act as a regulator and they are often used specifically
for this benefit.
* Some line-interactive UPS's use galvanic isolation. This isolates the
input from the output and effectively acts as a regulator. There is a
switching time during which there will be no supply, but this is not usually
more than 6ms, unlike the 50ms or higher that is characteristic for an
off-line UPS.

We have an APC Matrix 3kVA that uses galvanic isolation and it is very
effective as a regulator. It is supposed to provide a sinewave output, but
our experience is that is closer to a triangle.

W

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Mike, that depends on the UPS:
> * An online UPS will act as a regulator and they are often used specifically
> for this benefit.

Of course. It always depends. But the jerk was talking about getting a
"cheap" UPS, and on-line UPSs are not cheap. Sure, you can make your
own power any way you want and be independent of power line
fluctuations. Maybe he'd like to run his effect pedal from a water
wheel in the creek out back. As a rule, the type of UPSs that real
people (as opposed to large industrial installations) purchase pass
the input right on to the output until the battery takes over. Often
they have some EMI filtering for convenience, but that's not
regulation.

> * Some line-interactive UPS's use galvanic isolation.

Again, you're taking my generalization (which seemed fair in this
instance) and telling me about specific cases.

By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?" I've never heard this term.
How does it work? What's involved?

> This isolates the
> input from the output and effectively acts as a regulator.

How does this act as a regulator?

> There is a
> switching time during which there will be no supply, but this is not usually
> more than 6ms, unlike the 50ms or higher that is characteristic for an
> off-line UPS.

There are tap-switching regulating transformers, and generally they
switch in one cycle (16 ms). Sola is probably the
major player. These regulators have several taps on the secondary, and when the voltage at the
selected tap goes out of tolerance, it switches to a different tap.
The voltage "regulates" in steps, but each step will be within the
specified tolerance of the output unless the input gets so high or so
low that the highest or lowest voltage tap won't make the needed
correction.

There's also a ferroresonant regulating transformer. In this type of
regulator, the transformer primary generates a strong enough field to
keep the core saturated over the regulating range of the transformer.
When the core is saturated, that defines the limit to the current its
magnetic field can induce into the secondary. It works very much like
a limiter. As long as the core stays saturated, the output voltage
will remain constant. A capacitor is used to resonate the secondary at
the power line frequency to get the flat topped current waveform back
to something that looks more like a sine wave.

Both of those regulating transformers are pretty expensive unless you
can find a used one. I had a 2 KVA switching regulator (bought it for
$35 at a hamfest) in my remote recording truck, where I could never be
too sure of how good the power for the truck would be. The hardest
it's ever worked was when I was doing a recording in a bar in West
Virginia, and whenever the beer cooler refrigeration compressor
switched on, the line voltage at any outlet I could find, even the
closest one to the main breaker box, dropped down to about 96 volts.
While at home you might switch off the air conditioner during a take,
in West Virginia, you DON'T ask them to turn off the beer cooler for
the night.

> We have an APC Matrix 3kVA that uses galvanic isolation and it is very
> effective as a regulator. It is supposed to provide a sinewave output, but
> our experience is that is closer to a triangle.

Cost $55, right? <g>


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[S O'Neill]

Jasonst wrote:

> look retard........

I'm glad you clarified this. I thought I had just misread a previous post, and
thought you meant your air conditioner.

> turn on and off. So that proves the following:

I wish I could figure out what's wrong in your studio (besides the obvious).
Except for one tonewheel motor (which I know how to fix, so don't bother helping
me), mine works fine; I guess I don't have the experience at creating problems
that you do.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <znr1067263661k@trad>, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
>In article > writes:
>
>> * Some line-interactive UPS's use galvanic isolation.
>
>Again, you're taking my generalization (which seemed fair in this
>instance) and telling me about specific cases.
>
>By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?" I've never heard this term.
>How does it work? What's involved?

It's British for floating the neutral. It's a side effect of having a nice
big isolation transformer.

>> This isolates the
>> input from the output and effectively acts as a regulator.
>
>How does this act as a regulator?

I think he's talking about ferroresonant regulator systems, which give you
the ability to isolate the neutral and give you real regulation, and which
sometimes come in the same box with a UPS.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 27 Oct 2003 10:55:16 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>>By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?" I've never heard this term.
>>How does it work? What's involved?
>
>It's British for floating the neutral. It's a side effect of having a nice
>big isolation transformer.

I've wondered where this term came from. It literally means DC
isolated, but I had some idea of it coming from corrosion of
metal ships, or something equally unlikely. Don't know where
I get some notions.


Chris Hornbeck
new email address

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 27 Oct 2003 10:55:16 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>>By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?" I've never heard this term.
>>How does it work? What's involved?
>
>It's British for floating the neutral. It's a side effect of having a nice
>big isolation transformer.

I've wondered where this term came from. It literally means DC
isolated, but I had some idea of it coming from corrosion of
metal ships, or something equally unlikely. Don't know where
I get some notions.


Chris Hornbeck
new email address

[Rob Reedijk]

Tracy Wintermute > wrote:

> Sadly, in this troll's case, a lowly fuse or circuit breaker will
> likely prevent natural selection from running its course... but then
> again..

Maybe Scott should have suggested what I think he once refered
to as a suicide cord: An extension cord with a male plug at each
end that allows you to jumper power from one circuit to another.

A nasty little thing that's bound to get you into trouble.

Rob R.

[Rob Reedijk]

Tracy Wintermute > wrote:

> Sadly, in this troll's case, a lowly fuse or circuit breaker will
> likely prevent natural selection from running its course... but then
> again..

Maybe Scott should have suggested what I think he once refered
to as a suicide cord: An extension cord with a male plug at each
end that allows you to jumper power from one circuit to another.

A nasty little thing that's bound to get you into trouble.

Rob R.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> >By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?"

> It's British for floating the neutral. It's a side effect of having a nice
> big isolation transformer.

Those Brits have a different name for everything. It's raining today
so I've got to get my boots out of the boot.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> >By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?"

> It's British for floating the neutral. It's a side effect of having a nice
> big isolation transformer.

Those Brits have a different name for everything. It's raining today
so I've got to get my boots out of the boot.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <znr1067277731k@trad>, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
>In article > writes:
>
>> >By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?"
>
>> It's British for floating the neutral. It's a side effect of having a nice
>> big isolation transformer.
>
>Those Brits have a different name for everything. It's raining today
>so I've got to get my boots out of the boot.

I really like "long-tailed pair" for a differential pair. I hope to spread
the use of this phrase in the US also.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <znr1067277731k@trad>, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
>In article > writes:
>
>> >By the way, what's "galvanic isolation?"
>
>> It's British for floating the neutral. It's a side effect of having a nice
>> big isolation transformer.
>
>Those Brits have a different name for everything. It's raining today
>so I've got to get my boots out of the boot.

I really like "long-tailed pair" for a differential pair. I hope to spread
the use of this phrase in the US also.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Glenn Booth]

Hi,
In message <znr1067277731k@trad>, Mike Rivers >
writes

>Those Brits have a different name for everything. It's raining today
>so I've got to get my boots out of the boot.

But when it's warm enough to swim, I get to take my trunks out of the
trunk :-)

--
Regards,
Glenn Booth

[portableac7]

"Jasonst" wrote:
> thanks...I think your all right.
>
> Ill probably look for a cheap UPS and backup my computer while im at it.
>
> thanks for the help
>
> Where can if find a bargain UPS on order of 800va?
>

This is not a good idea. Rather spend a little extra and get a decent UPS,
as cheap models can do more harm than good. Most of these are switching
rather than inline, meaning that you are still getting the "dirty" supply
anyway. What you want is a nice pure sine wave. They also have a longish
delay before switching over and this can affect sensitive equipment.

A UPS is a good idea regardless of whether it solves your problem, but get
something decent that supplies your power via the batteries (outputting a
clean sine wave) and has decent protection circuitry and fuses.
Overspeccing on what you think you need is also a good idea. I have seen
several instances where a UPS that started out as sufficient is later
hopelessly overloaded by new equipment that was added subsequently.

W

Nice idea...thank's a lot