Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver

[apa]

I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that).

Thank you for any advice, Andy

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

"apa" > skrev i en meddelelse
...

> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs
> (gallery / coffee house > size).

New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey.

> It would need to handle full range electronic instruments
> as well as vocals.

No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a
pair of speakers to put on sticks.

> I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy
> with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.

I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the
road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested
either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest
you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you
ask about.

> But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering
> if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
> brands to avoid in the powered PA area.

There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh,
Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff.

> Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not
> an issue

You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue.

> (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
> resonant and I want to avoid that).

The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range.

> Thank you for any advice

You're most welcome, what a nice question.

> Andy

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[apa]

Hello Peter,

Thank you very much for the response. A question regarding EV inline below if you have the time.

On Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20:10 PM UTC-4, Peter Larsen wrote:
> "apa" > skrev i en meddelelse
> ...
>
> > I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs
> > (gallery / coffee house > size).
>
> New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey.
>

So it looks Meyer Sound UPQ 1P is around $1600 / pair?
That puts me pretty firmly in the not rich camp.

I have a pair of passive Peaveys, so maybe I'll just stick with them.


> > It would need to handle full range electronic instruments
> > as well as vocals.
>
> No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a
> pair of speakers to put on sticks.
>
> > I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy
> > with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
>
> I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the
> road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested
> either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest
> you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you
> ask about.
>
> > But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering
> > if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
> > brands to avoid in the powered PA area.
>
> There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh,
> Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff.

The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair.
Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than?

> > Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not
> > an issue
>
> You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue.
>
Right, fair enough.
No pun intended I assume?


> > (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
> > resonant and I want to avoid that).
>
> The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range.
>
I would now have guessed this. Thanks.


> > Thank you for any advice
>
> You're most welcome, what a nice question.
>
> > Andy
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen

Much appreciated, Andy

[hank alrich]

apa > wrote:

> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery /
> coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic
> instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the
> studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
> But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are
> any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered
> PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is
> not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
> resonant and I want to avoid that).
>
> Thank you for any advice, Andy

QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try
those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although
if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using
SRM350's, but not SRM450's.

I don't think a SRM350 would suit you well, though I haven't used or
heard the new 1000 watt model. Mackie obviously felt the pressure there,
with the small amount of power in the previous versions.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Peter Larsen > wrote:

> "apa" > skrev i en meddelelse
> ...
>
> > I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs
> > (gallery / coffee house > size).
>
> New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey.
>
> > It would need to handle full range electronic instruments
> > as well as vocals.
>
> No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a
> pair of speakers to put on sticks.

If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC
K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice
Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but
even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's.

The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South
Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify
what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the
physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in
a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In
the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on
top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what
would be needed.

I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is
open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3,
and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls
feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice.

Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit
apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In
fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent
sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want
quantity.)

> > I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy
> > with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
>
> I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the
> road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested
> either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest
> you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you
> ask about.

Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn
well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly
accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but
it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they
are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass.

> > But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering
> > if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
> > brands to avoid in the powered PA area.
>
> There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh,
> Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff.
>
> > Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not
> > an issue
>
> You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue.

Amen.

> > (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
> > resonant and I want to avoid that).
>
> The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range.

I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and
Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial
applications.

I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run
into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to
judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less
costly line.

http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/

http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/

> > Thank you for any advice
>
> You're most welcome, what a nice question.
>
> > Andy
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen


--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

apa > wrote:

> The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair.
> Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than?

See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money.

http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/

Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio.
We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want
to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[apa]

Thank you Hank. These look great and with your endorsement I'd trust them.
Any reason you went with the K10 over the K12?

Best, Andy

On Monday, October 27, 2014 2:35:41 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote:
> apa > wrote:
>
> > The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair.
> > Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than?
>
> See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money.
>
> http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/
>
> Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio.
> We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want
> to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity.
>
> --
> shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
> HankandShaidriMusic.Com
> YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

"hank alrich" > skrev i en meddelelse
...

> apa > wrote:

>> The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair.
>> Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than?

> See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money.

> http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/

> Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio.
> We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want
> to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity.

60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range, but I like the text about them and
the processing allows pushing them more than one would dare do without it.
And yes, they might fit what the OP asks about, a monolithic "do all" setup,
QSC is not the most visible brand over here so I didn't think of checking
what they actually offer.

On the day job we have some Electro Voice Zx1's - small plastic boxes with
8" and horn, 4 of those do a decent out doors horse show, I'd prefer to have
the matching 12" subs, but the budget had to contain "enough" wireless mics
and that sub was not yet available when we shopped.

Active and passive versions are available, I know the passive ones are
weather resistant, dunno about the active ones, don't want no active
speakers on a lawn anyway. I'm thinking four of those with subs would be a
very adaptable rig for the suggested show size, small coffee house no subs,
large coffee househouse with subs. Deplooying what you need and only that is
a nice concept, and with 6 tops and 4 subs there'd also be boxes for a basic
stage monitor setup.

If you can get weather resistant within "the same budget" as not weather
resistant, then go for it, it increases the usability of the rig and thus
makes it better at making money. At the end of the show just that is the
most important spec.

> shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
> HankandShaidriMusic.Com
> YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

"apa" > skrev i en meddelelse
...

> Thank you Hank. These look great and with your endorsement I'd trust them.
> Any reason you went with the K10 over the K12?

At a guess: vox humana, also why I ended up thinking 8" plus sub(s).

> Best, Andy

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 10/27/2014 3:41 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
> 60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range,

Most people don't really know what they're asking for, hence "full
range." But considering how little below 60 Hz needs reinforcement in a
small club, unless they specialize in showing earthquake movies or bass
solos, subwoofers aren't likely to be necessary. They also aren't easy
to lug around.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[hank alrich]

apa > wrote:

> Thank you Hank. These look great and with your endorsement I'd trust them.
> Any reason you went with the K10 over the K12?
>
> Best, Andy

K10's cost less, and I was budgeting a fine line. It worked out.


> On Monday, October 27, 2014 2:35:41 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote:
> > apa > wrote:
> >
> > > The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair.
> > > Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than?
> >
> > See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money.
> >
> > http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/
> >
> > Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio.
> > We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want
> > to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Sean Conolly]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Larsen > wrote:
>
>> "apa" > skrev i en meddelelse
>> ...
>>
>> > I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs
>> > (gallery / coffee house > size).
>>
>> New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey.
>>
>> > It would need to handle full range electronic instruments
>> > as well as vocals.
>>
>> No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a
>> pair of speakers to put on sticks.
>
> If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC
> K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice
> Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but
> even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's.
>
> The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South
> Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify
> what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the
> physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in
> a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In
> the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on
> top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what
> would be needed.
>
> I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is
> open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3,
> and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls
> feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice.
>
> Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit
> apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In
> fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent
> sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want
> quantity.)
>
>> > I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy
>> > with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
>>
>> I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the
>> road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested
>> either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd
>> suggest
>> you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what
>> you
>> ask about.
>
> Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn
> well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly
> accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but
> it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they
> are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass.
>
>> > But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering
>> > if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
>> > brands to avoid in the powered PA area.
>>
>> There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh,
>> Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff.
>>
>> > Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not
>> > an issue
>>
>> You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue.
>
> Amen.
>
>> > (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
>> > resonant and I want to avoid that).
>>
>> The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable
>> range.
>
> I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and
> Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial
> applications.
>
> I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run
> into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to
> judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less
> costly line.
>
> http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/
>
> http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/
>

FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they
are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into hard
limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected.

I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy
something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF,
such as:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985090-REG/rcf_art_312a_mk3_12_art_3_series.html

Sean

[Scott Dorsey]

Sean Conolly > wrote:
>
>I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy
>something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF,
>such as:
>http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985090-REG/rcf_art_312a_mk3_12_art_3_series.html

The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than
anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk.

I would have recommended the Radians except that they haven't joined the
21st century and still only have unpowered cabinets.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

apa wrote:
> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery
> / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic
> instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in
> the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay
> with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm
> wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
> brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably
> the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the
> lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid
> that).
>
> Thank you for any advice, Andy
>

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/K12

or
http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/SRM450v3

Two price points; I liked the K12 much better.

I bet you can find both at Guitar Center; I'd go demo them.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Sean Conolly wrote:
> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Peter Larsen > wrote:
>>
>>> "apa" > skrev i en meddelelse
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs
>>>> (gallery / coffee house > size).
>>>
>>> New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey.
>>>
>>>> It would need to handle full range electronic instruments
>>>> as well as vocals.
>>>
>>> No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a
>>> pair of speakers to put on sticks.
>>
>> If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC
>> K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice
>> Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but
>> even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's.
>>
>> The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South
>> Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify
>> what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the
>> physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in
>> a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In
>> the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on
>> top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what
>> would be needed.
>>
>> I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is
>> open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3,
>> and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls
>> feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice.
>>
>> Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit
>> apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In
>> fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent
>> sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want
>> quantity.)
>>
>>>> I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy
>>>> with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
>>>
>>> I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the
>>> road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested
>>> either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd
>>> suggest
>>> you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what
>>> you
>>> ask about.
>>
>> Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn
>> well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly
>> accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but
>> it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they
>> are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass.
>>
>>>> But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering
>>>> if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
>>>> brands to avoid in the powered PA area.
>>>
>>> There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh,
>>> Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff.
>>>
>>>> Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not
>>>> an issue
>>>
>>> You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue.
>>
>> Amen.
>>
>>>> (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
>>>> resonant and I want to avoid that).
>>>
>>> The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable
>>> range.
>>
>> I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and
>> Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial
>> applications.
>>
>> I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run
>> into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to
>> judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less
>> costly line.
>>
>> http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/
>>
>> http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/
>>
>
> FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they
> are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into hard
> limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected.
>


Did you have a sub with 'em?

They are class D so, yeah. There's gonna be a hard limiter.

They have "peak" max SPL of 131; take 10 off that for using
the word "peak" and it's not exactly knocking the walls out.

But 120dB @ 1 M should be enough for most club situations
of 5000 to say 8000 sq. feet or so.

> I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy
> something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF,
> such as:
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985090-REG/rcf_art_312a_mk3_12_art_3_series.html
>
> Sean
>
>

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

(hank alrich) wrote:
> apa > wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery /
>> coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic
>> instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the
>> studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
>> But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are
>> any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered
>> PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is
>> not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
>> resonant and I want to avoid that).
>>
>> Thank you for any advice, Andy
>
> QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try
> those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although
> if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using
> SRM350's, but not SRM450's.
>

I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom.

> I don't think a SRM350 would suit you well, though I haven't used or
> heard the new 1000 watt model. Mackie obviously felt the pressure there,
> with the small amount of power in the previous versions.
>

They should consider looking at the dispersion pattern while they're
at it.

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> Sean Conolly > wrote:
> >
> >I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to
> >buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go
> >with RCF, such as:
> >http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985090-REG/rcf_art_312a_mk3_12_art_
> >3_series.html
>
> The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than
> anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk.
>
> I would have recommended the Radians except that they haven't joined the
> 21st century and still only have unpowered cabinets.
> --scott

For two years at the Armadillo Christmas Bazaar for front row audience
fill we have used a pair of small speakers built by a young guy in
Austin, Tyler Fannon, ostensibly wedges built as tightly as possible
around a ten inch Radian driver. These are very small boxes. He used the
cutout that provides a handle for the port, too. You literally could not
build smaller box around that driver.

They sound terrific, and they work so well that we have been able to
turn the mains down just a touch. They are silly powerful. He built them
at the request of an acoustic touring artist who said she wanted the
tiniest good-sounding stage monitors he could come up with, because they
didn't have much room in the road rig, but they were sick and tired of
using what they were finding at venues.

Impressive drivers. Bad ass and good sounding. Not inexpensive.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Sean Conolly > wrote:

> FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they
> are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into hard
> limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected.

If that happens in a coffee house or gallery, something is terrible
wrong at the master fader. ;-)

I like the K's w/smaller woofers better than the one w/ the 12. If I
need loud I won't be looking at any of this stuff.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Les Cargill > wrote:

> (hank alrich) wrote:
> > apa > wrote:
> >
> >> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery /
> >> coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic
> >> instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the
> >> studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
> >> But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are
> >> any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered
> >> PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is
> >> not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
> >> resonant and I want to avoid that).
> >>
> >> Thank you for any advice, Andy
> >
> > QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try
> > those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although
> > if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using
> > SRM350's, but not SRM450's.
> >
>
> I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom.

Yeah, but, IME it doesn't sound as good as the two with smaller woofers.
I'm allowing that the OP's intended usage should not require any
reasonable modern system to be driven into clipping. If I'm wrong, those
are coffee houses and galleries to which I am unaccustomed.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

(hank alrich) wrote:
> Les Cargill > wrote:
>
>> (hank alrich) wrote:
>>> apa > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery /
>>>> coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic
>>>> instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the
>>>> studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
>>>> But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are
>>>> any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered
>>>> PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is
>>>> not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
>>>> resonant and I want to avoid that).
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for any advice, Andy
>>>
>>> QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try
>>> those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although
>>> if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using
>>> SRM350's, but not SRM450's.
>>>
>>
>> I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom.
>
> Yeah, but, IME it doesn't sound as good as the two with smaller woofers.
> I'm allowing that the OP's intended usage should not require any
> reasonable modern system to be driven into clipping. If I'm wrong, those
> are coffee houses and galleries to which I am unaccustomed.
>

Good to know.

I will have to listen to those smaller ones, then. My reaction to the
K12 was just "my god, the midrange works on 'em."



--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Sean Conolly > wrote:
>>
>> I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy
>> something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF,
>> such as:
>> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985090-REG/rcf_art_312a_mk3_12_art_3_series.html
>
> The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than
> anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk.
>

Cool. Thanks, Sean; thanks, Scott. I'd never heard of 'em.

> I would have recommended the Radians except that they haven't joined the
> 21st century and still only have unpowered cabinets.
> --scott
>

--
Les Cargill

[geoff]

On 28/10/2014 9:06 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 10/27/2014 3:41 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
>> 60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range,
>
> Most people don't really know what they're asking for, hence "full
> range." But considering how little below 60 Hz needs reinforcement in a
> small club, unless they specialize in showing earthquake movies or bass
> solos, subwoofers aren't likely to be necessary. They also aren't easy
> to lug around.
>


HK Lucas (various sizes) . Sound good and easy to lug (wheel) around.
Sub and satellites, all powered.

geoff

[apa]

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:34:33 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
> On 28/10/2014 9:06 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
> > On 10/27/2014 3:41 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
> >> 60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range,
> >
> > Most people don't really know what they're asking for, hence "full
> > range." But considering how little below 60 Hz needs reinforcement in a
> > small club, unless they specialize in showing earthquake movies or bass
> > solos, subwoofers aren't likely to be necessary. They also aren't easy
> > to lug around.
> >
>
>
> HK Lucas (various sizes) . Sound good and easy to lug (wheel) around.
> Sub and satellites, all powered.
>
> geoff

Great advice from everyone.
Thank you very much.
-Andy

[Scott Dorsey]

Les Cargill > wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> Sean Conolly > wrote:
>>>
>>> I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy
>>> something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF,
>>> such as:
>>> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985090-REG/rcf_art_312a_mk3_12_art_3_series.html
>>
>> The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than
>> anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk.
>>
>
>Cool. Thanks, Sean; thanks, Scott. I'd never heard of 'em.

Hmm... I was actually thinking of something like the RCF NX12SMA, rather than
the molded cabinet things.

But I'll say that RCF has competent engineering on the whole and if they are
trying to get into the MI market and compete with the Mackie SR I would
definitely give their offerings a try.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 10/28/2014 9:16 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> I'll say that RCF has competent engineering on the whole and if they are
> trying to get into the MI market and compete with the Mackie SR I would
> definitely give their offerings a try.

The original Mackie SR series of speakers were RCF, back when there was
a closer relationship between the two companies. No more, though.
Different drivers, different amplifiers, different cabinets.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Sean Conolly]

"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
...
> Sean Conolly wrote:
>> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Peter Larsen > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "apa" > skrev i en meddelelse
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs
>>>>> (gallery / coffee house > size).
>>>>
>>>> New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey.
>>>>
>>>>> It would need to handle full range electronic instruments
>>>>> as well as vocals.
>>>>
>>>> No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in
>>>> a
>>>> pair of speakers to put on sticks.
>>>
>>> If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC
>>> K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice
>>> Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but
>>> even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's.
>>>
>>> The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South
>>> Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify
>>> what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the
>>> physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in
>>> a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In
>>> the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on
>>> top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what
>>> would be needed.
>>>
>>> I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is
>>> open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3,
>>> and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls
>>> feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice.
>>>
>>> Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit
>>> apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In
>>> fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent
>>> sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want
>>> quantity.)
>>>
>>>>> I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy
>>>>> with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie.
>>>>
>>>> I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the
>>>> road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested
>>>> either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd
>>>> suggest
>>>> you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what
>>>> you
>>>> ask about.
>>>
>>> Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn
>>> well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly
>>> accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but
>>> it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they
>>> are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass.
>>>
>>>>> But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering
>>>>> if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
>>>>> brands to avoid in the powered PA area.
>>>>
>>>> There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh,
>>>> Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff.
>>>>
>>>>> Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not
>>>>> an issue
>>>>
>>>> You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue.
>>>
>>> Amen.
>>>
>>>>> (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly
>>>>> resonant and I want to avoid that).
>>>>
>>>> The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable
>>>> range.
>>>
>>> I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and
>>> Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial
>>> applications.
>>>
>>> I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run
>>> into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to
>>> judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less
>>> costly line.
>>>
>>> http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/
>>>
>>> http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/
>>>
>>
>> FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they
>> are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into
>> hard
>> limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected.
>>
>
>
> Did you have a sub with 'em?
>
> They are class D so, yeah. There's gonna be a hard limiter.
>
> They have "peak" max SPL of 131; take 10 off that for using
> the word "peak" and it's not exactly knocking the walls out.
>
> But 120dB @ 1 M should be enough for most club situations
> of 5000 to say 8000 sq. feet or so.

Yes, we were using the QSC subs. And the levels were a bit more than a
coffee shop :-) My point is that they are not really up to a mid-sized club,
which is what the marketing specs suggest.

I just suspect that I can get equal if not better performance for less with
the RCF, again for a smaller venue.

Sean

[hank alrich]

Les Cargill > wrote:

> (hank alrich) wrote:
> > Les Cargill > wrote:
> >
> >> (hank alrich) wrote:
> >>> apa > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery
> >>>> / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic
> >>>> instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in
> >>>> the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay
> >>>> with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm
> >>>> wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
> >>>> brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably
> >>>> the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the
> >>>> lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid
> >>>> that).
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you for any advice, Andy
> >>>
> >>> QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try
> >>> those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie,
> >>> although if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be
> >>> happy using SRM350's, but not SRM450's.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom.
> >
> > Yeah, but, IME it doesn't sound as good as the two with smaller woofers.
> > I'm allowing that the OP's intended usage should not require any
> > reasonable modern system to be driven into clipping. If I'm wrong, those
> > are coffee houses and galleries to which I am unaccustomed.
> >
>
> Good to know.
>
> I will have to listen to those smaller ones, then. My reaction to the
> K12 was just "my god, the midrange works on 'em."

I think they're a pretty good speaker line for the money, overall, and
that you are right. One thing to consider when looking at the models is
that the horn dispersion patterns are different.

The 8" is 105°, the 10" is 90°, and the 12" is 75°, all of them conical.
The little one works a treat in small rooms.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[geoff]

On 29/10/2014 2:16 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Les Cargill > wrote:
>> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>> Sean Conolly > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy
>>>> something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF,
>>>> such as:
>>>> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985090-REG/rcf_art_312a_mk3_12_art_3_series.html
>>>
>>> The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than
>>> anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk.
>>>
>>
>> Cool. Thanks, Sean; thanks, Scott. I'd never heard of 'em.
>
> Hmm... I was actually thinking of something like the RCF NX12SMA, rather than
> the molded cabinet things.
>
> But I'll say that RCF has competent engineering on the whole and if they are
> trying to get into the MI market and compete with the Mackie SR I would
> definitely give their offerings a try.
> --scott
>


They been there for yonks. At least they *were* there 10 years ago, and
I've got an ART-300A to prove it !

geoff

[[email protected]]

why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive,

I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles?

And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway.

Is that really a good tradeoff?

I'm asking, not arguing...

Mark

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 10/28/2014 5:05 PM, wrote:

> why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive,

Some do, some don't.

> I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a
> bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles?

Most of them use Class D (or above) amplifiers which don't have big
power or output transformers, and offer lots of watts for very few
pounds. The amount of weight added to the weight of the drivers and
cabinet is pretty insignificant.

> And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker
> anyway.

Yup, usually both, but you don't have to run heavy (12 gauge or so)
cables from the power amplifier to the speakers. It's pretty much an
even tradeoff as far as how much copper you need to buy and carry. And
if you'll be setting up in various unknown venues, it's usually easier
to extend power cables than speaker cables if you need to do so.

One important benefit is that the speaker and power amplifier can be
accurately matched to each other. Also, modern powered speakers usually
have some protection so that you can't blow the drivers, and many are
now including highly tweaked and tweakable DSP crossover functions that
get more predictable speaker performance than you can get with a
capacitor to keep the lows out of the tweeter.

But the tradeoff here is that, while the drivers are pretty well
protected from overloads, the power amplifiers, being electronic, are
bound to fail sometime. Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and
are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with
separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier.

Everything is a compromise, but these days, at nearly any given price
point, when you consider the cost of the full system including
packaging, you can usually get better sound from a powered speaker than
a passive speaker and separate power amplifier. And it's a little more
idiot-proof than having separate components.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

wrote:
>
> why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive,
>
> I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a
> bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles?
>

They use switching amps, so they're light. It's an opportunity to
match amps and speakers well. It's fewer signal cables. They're
generally biamped without having to futz too much with a crossover.

People hate wires. Who knew?

> And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker
> anyway.
>

Yep. Big PITA; you kinda need a custom cable run or it gets
ugly.

> Is that really a good tradeoff?
>

It can be. Most of 'em don't sound very good, though.

> I'm asking, not arguing...
>
> Mark
>

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

> wrote:

> why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive,
>
> I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger
> pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles?
>
> And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway.
>
> Is that really a good tradeoff?
>
> I'm asking, not arguing...
>
> Mark

Modern powered PA speakers are using digital amps, and the packages are
surprisingly lightweight, considering. The new 1000W Mackie SRM350
weighs 23 lbs. The QSC K series boxes weigh 27, 32, and 41 lbs. for the
8", 10", and 12" models.

Upscale, up price, and way up quality, a Meyer UPA-1P weighs 77 lbs,
which is about the same as my quarter-century old UPA-1A's, which are
passive.

Amps and drivers can be matched more precisely when the length of the
speaker wire is a known constant in the equations, and the very short
lengths of speaker wire displace a lot of heavy cable needed to reach
passive speakers, especially if we are bi-amping our system.

Yeah, you must run power, and yeah, it's a bit of a PITA, but overall
you wind up hauling less wire, handling fewer packages, and enjoying
better performance more consistently.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[geoff]

On 29/10/2014 10:05 a.m., wrote:
>
> why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive,
>
> I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles?
>
> And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway.
>
> Is that really a good tradeoff?
>
> I'm asking, not arguing...
>
> Mark
>


Yes, a really good trade-off.

No extra amp and cables to forget/worry about etc. And they aren't
actually significantly heavier these days.

I dumped all my passive pa speakers around 10 years ago (now have FBT,
Mackie, RCF, and HK Projector rig).

geoff

[geoff]

On 29/10/2014 11:22 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
..
>
> But the tradeoff here is that, while the drivers are pretty well
> protected from overloads, the power amplifiers, being electronic, are
> bound to fail sometime. Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and
> are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with
> separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier.

But if you have 2 speakers , one will still work.

Conversely a stand-alone (electronic, the same !) amp failure may well
render both channels unusable !

geoff

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 10/29/2014 2:40 AM, geoff wrote:
>> Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and
>> are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with
>> separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier.

> But if you have 2 speakers , one will still work.

Sometimes, but if you use the conventional setup with one speaker at
each side of the stage, where do you put the one speaker that's working?
In the middle, in front of the lead singer?

Of course you can make something work, but if I had the choice of only
one channel driving two speakers or only one channel driving one
speaker, most of the time I'd opt for the two speakers. Placement
usually trumps another 3 dB of SPL.

> Conversely a stand-alone (electronic, the same !) amp failure may well
> render both channels unusable !

Yes, if it's a failure that's common to both channels. But given a
random failure, there's a chance that one channel of the two will work.
Failures are failures. Some are unrecoverable until you fix something,
but others have better work-arounds than others.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>
>why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive,
>
>I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles?

Yes.... and if you have crossovers and racks of amps, it can be a lot more
than one box. Keeping items off the inventory that will get lost in shipment
is a big deal.

On the other hand... if an amp fails on a speaker that is flown, you have to
get the damn thing down to replace it, rather than just replacing the amp
in the rack. With unpowered speakers, you might even have extra amp channels
so you can repatch to a new amp in the event of a failure.

But, these days a lot of cabinets have integrated amplifier/crossover/dsp
for pattern control when the cabinets are linked together into large arrays,
and I grant it's easier to do this with the electronics in the cabinet.

>And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway.

Yes, BUT the AC power cords are often a lot lighter than speaker cables, and
they are more common. The signal cables are normally just XLR. So you do
have more cables to each cabinet, but lighter cable weight.

>Is that really a good tradeoff?

To be honest, I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other and that
you should pick the system that sounds good and not worry about where the
amps are.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich > wrote:
>
>Modern powered PA speakers are using digital amps, and the packages are
>surprisingly lightweight, considering. The new 1000W Mackie SRM350
>weighs 23 lbs. The QSC K series boxes weigh 27, 32, and 41 lbs. for the
>8", 10", and 12" models.

Yeah, but I can buy those same digital amps in racks, and if I do that
the speakers are even more lightweight!

To be honest with a 23 lb speaker that size, I worry a lot about structural
rigidity and keeping resonances down. A little more weight might not be
a bad thing.

>Amps and drivers can be matched more precisely when the length of the
>speaker wire is a known constant in the equations, and the very short
>lengths of speaker wire displace a lot of heavy cable needed to reach
>passive speakers, especially if we are bi-amping our system.

I'll buy that, and it's ALSO possible to do more effective speaker protection
by limiting at the amplifier, if you know exactly what the speaker is and
how it overloads.

>Yeah, you must run power, and yeah, it's a bit of a PITA, but overall
>you wind up hauling less wire, handling fewer packages, and enjoying
>better performance more consistently.

Until an amp fails and someone has to go up on a truss to get the cabinet
down.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Sean Conolly]

> wrote in message
...
>
> why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive,
>
> I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger
> pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles?
>
> And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway.
>
> Is that really a good tradeoff?
>
> I'm asking, not arguing...
>

Consider a situation where you have two mains on sticks, two subs, and four
floor monitors. With conventional amps for the speakers I have a rack with
four power amps to carry and fit on a usually cramped stage.

The powered speakers don't use any more space, but I can ditch the amp rack
entirely, and just have a small rack for effects and gates, etc. Swap the
mixer for a small digital mixer like the QSC and I don't need the effects
rack either. I can get down to a point where I just carry the mixer (on a
little folding TV table) and the speakers I need, and the required cables.
You can buy powered cables now, but they aren't cheap.

The down side is of course that being self-contained if you have a failure
the whole speaker is out of service. Also the electronics have to be
engineered to survive a high vibration environment, in addition to
restricted airflow for cooling. That's part of what you're (or should be)
paying for - it's not just a speaker and an amp, it's the whole system
designed to work well and reliably.

Finally, it's not something to skimp on. I've heard several in the $300
range that sound much worse than a plain passive speaker.

Sean

[Sean Conolly]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Les Cargill > wrote:
>
>> (hank alrich) wrote:
>> > Les Cargill > wrote:
>> >
>> >> (hank alrich) wrote:
>> >>> apa > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs
>> >>>> (gallery
>> >>>> / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic
>> >>>> instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors
>> >>>> in
>> >>>> the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay
>> >>>> with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm
>> >>>> wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or
>> >>>> brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably
>> >>>> the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the
>> >>>> lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid
>> >>>> that).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thank you for any advice, Andy
>> >>>
>> >>> QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try
>> >>> those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie,
>> >>> although if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be
>> >>> happy using SRM350's, but not SRM450's.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom.
>> >
>> > Yeah, but, IME it doesn't sound as good as the two with smaller
>> > woofers.
>> > I'm allowing that the OP's intended usage should not require any
>> > reasonable modern system to be driven into clipping. If I'm wrong,
>> > those
>> > are coffee houses and galleries to which I am unaccustomed.
>> >
>>
>> Good to know.
>>
>> I will have to listen to those smaller ones, then. My reaction to the
>> K12 was just "my god, the midrange works on 'em."
>
> I think they're a pretty good speaker line for the money, overall, and
> that you are right. One thing to consider when looking at the models is
> that the horn dispersion patterns are different.
>
> The 8" is 105°, the 10" is 90°, and the 12" is 75°, all of them conical.
> The little one works a treat in small rooms.


Smaller speakers tend to have a wider midrange dispersion in that critical
area right below the cross-over point, which is a big plus.

Sean

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> hank alrich > wrote:
> >
> >Modern powered PA speakers are using digital amps, and the packages are
> >surprisingly lightweight, considering. The new 1000W Mackie SRM350
> >weighs 23 lbs. The QSC K series boxes weigh 27, 32, and 41 lbs. for the
> >8", 10", and 12" models.
>
> Yeah, but I can buy those same digital amps in racks, and if I do that
> the speakers are even more lightweight!

And you just gave up a seat in the van to a rack, so now we need another
vehicle…

> To be honest with a 23 lb speaker that size, I worry a lot about structural
> rigidity and keeping resonances down. A little more weight might not be
> a bad thing.

I agree, but I accept that lower priced spreads are not Meyer. That
UPA-1P at 77 lbs. is more like it, but I no longer want to lift that
onto a stand by myself. I still have my UPA's, and with the steel
tilting bracket supports I welded up they push 90 lbs. A decade ago I
could lift that up onto a stand. Now, no thanks!

> >Amps and drivers can be matched more precisely when the length of the
> >speaker wire is a known constant in the equations, and the very short
> >lengths of speaker wire displace a lot of heavy cable needed to reach
> >passive speakers, especially if we are bi-amping our system.
>
> I'll buy that, and it's ALSO possible to do more effective speaker protection
> by limiting at the amplifier, if you know exactly what the speaker is and
> how it overloads.

I haven't seen any of these boxes that don't have protective peak
limited as part of the amp package, but those are probably out there,
too, at a lower price.

> >Yeah, you must run power, and yeah, it's a bit of a PITA, but overall
> >you wind up hauling less wire, handling fewer packages, and enjoying
> >better performance more consistently.
>
> Until an amp fails and someone has to go up on a truss to get the cabinet
> down.
> --scott

Yep, no free lunch. Wouldn't be any different if one lost a driver in a
flown cab.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

geoff > wrote:

> On 29/10/2014 11:22 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
> .
> >
> > But the tradeoff here is that, while the drivers are pretty well
> > protected from overloads, the power amplifiers, being electronic, are
> > bound to fail sometime. Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and
> > are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with
> > separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier.
>
> But if you have 2 speakers , one will still work.
>
> Conversely a stand-alone (electronic, the same !) amp failure may well
> render both channels unusable !
>
> geoff

Yep, we gamble when we don't carry spares, but in the cheap trenches,
spares are out of the budget.

I am reminded, however, of AES 1998 in SF, where Meyer had a large booth
demoing many products. What I found most fascinating was a military
environmental test chamber into which you could see, with a bare power
amp in there, getting signal and being driven stoutly feeding speakers,
completely exposed to the "elements" in the chamber. They would swing
that chamber between various _extremes_, I mean Sahara-like one hour,
and the North Pole the next, with Amazon swamp and downpour coming right
along, and then have snow fall all over it, in real time, for the
duration of the show. That amp never even hiccupped.

When people wonder why Meyer costs so much, it's the little things like
that. When they state a device will deliver whatever into such and such,
they mean _continuously_, and not merely for a few hours under favorable
conditions.

I spite of that, if you hit their site to look over the powered boxes,
you will note that they also tout the modularity of their built-in amps,
and the ease of field replacement. They accept that you can do your
best, but you cannot sustain "perfect".

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Sean Conolly > wrote:

> Finally, it's not something to skimp on. I've heard several in the $300
> range that sound much worse than a plain passive speaker.

This. Hear before you buy. Don't toss money at GC of MF based on some
claim in the online store, or from the manufacturers of the really cheap
stuff, either. They cannot afford to be honest there.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Sean Conolly]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Sean Conolly > wrote:
>
>> Finally, it's not something to skimp on. I've heard several in the $300
>> range that sound much worse than a plain passive speaker.
>
> This. Hear before you buy. Don't toss money at GC of MF based on some
> claim in the online store, or from the manufacturers of the really cheap
> stuff, either. They cannot afford to be honest there.

Even better, look at how the speakers are reviewed in the online stores and
then go listen in person. You may find yourself wondering if the reviewers
even have functioning ears.

Sean

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

(hank alrich) wrote:
> geoff > wrote:
>
>> On 29/10/2014 11:22 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> But the tradeoff here is that, while the drivers are pretty well
>>> protected from overloads, the power amplifiers, being electronic, are
>>> bound to fail sometime. Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and
>>> are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with
>>> separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier.
>>
>> But if you have 2 speakers , one will still work.
>>
>> Conversely a stand-alone (electronic, the same !) amp failure may well
>> render both channels unusable !
>>
>> geoff
>
> Yep, we gamble when we don't carry spares, but in the cheap trenches,
> spares are out of the budget.
>
> I am reminded, however, of AES 1998 in SF, where Meyer had a large booth
> demoing many products. What I found most fascinating was a military
> environmental test chamber into which you could see, with a bare power
> amp in there, getting signal and being driven stoutly feeding speakers,
> completely exposed to the "elements" in the chamber. They would swing
> that chamber between various _extremes_, I mean Sahara-like one hour,
> and the North Pole the next, with Amazon swamp and downpour coming right
> along, and then have snow fall all over it, in real time, for the
> duration of the show. That amp never even hiccupped.
>
> When people wonder why Meyer costs so much, it's the little things like
> that. When they state a device will deliver whatever into such and such,
> they mean _continuously_, and not merely for a few hours under favorable
> conditions.
>
> I spite of that, if you hit their site to look over the powered boxes,
> you will note that they also tout the modularity of their built-in amps,
> and the ease of field replacement. They accept that you can do your
> best, but you cannot sustain "perfect".
>

At some point, cartage costs more than what's being carted. There is an
actual "Modern Marvels" from 4-FEB-2011 which details Brad Paisley's
road show's logistics.

I doubt the cost of the mains cabs is much compared to all that, and
with high enough quality and well-enough maintained gear, it
probably has resale after it's fully depreciated.

If you do it right, *equipment is free*. This IRS will let you deduct
every nickel of it, and if you're a properly configured corporation,
that should be pretty close to a 1:1 in taxes.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

(hank alrich) wrote:
> Sean Conolly > wrote:
>
>> Finally, it's not something to skimp on. I've heard several in the $300
>> range that sound much worse than a plain passive speaker.
>
> This. Hear before you buy. Don't toss money at GC of MF based on some
> claim in the online store, or from the manufacturers of the really cheap
> stuff, either. They cannot afford to be honest there.
>


PA from Guitar Center is rarely much good.

If the staff at GC knows you're gigging, you can also sometimes
ask them. It works for them if you remember them and come back to
them. Because they carry so much stuff, it's worth it for you, too.

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Les Cargill > wrote:

> (hank alrich) wrote:
> > Sean Conolly > wrote:
> >
> >> Finally, it's not something to skimp on. I've heard several in the $300
> >> range that sound much worse than a plain passive speaker.
> >
> > This. Hear before you buy. Don't toss money at GC of MF based on some
> > claim in the online store, or from the manufacturers of the really cheap
> > stuff, either. They cannot afford to be honest there.
> >
>
>
> PA from Guitar Center is rarely much good.

An informed purchaser can do okay. The gullible get the ride.

> If the staff at GC knows you're gigging, you can also sometimes
> ask them. It works for them if you remember them and come back to
> them. Because they carry so much stuff, it's worth it for you, too.

Works well. And then the staff turns over.

I have found GC handy several times, mainly because the one in
Northcross Mall in Austin is diagonally across from Go Dance's studio
there.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 10/30/2014 2:30 PM, hank alrich wrote:
> Les Cargill > wrote:
>
>> (hank alrich) wrote:
>>> Sean Conolly > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Finally, it's not something to skimp on. I've heard several in the $300
>>>> range that sound much worse than a plain passive speaker.
>>>
>>> This. Hear before you buy. Don't toss money at GC of MF based on some
>>> claim in the online store, or from the manufacturers of the really cheap
>>> stuff, either. They cannot afford to be honest there.
>>>
>>
>>
>> PA from Guitar Center is rarely much good.
>
> An informed purchaser can do okay. The gullible get the ride.
>
>> If the staff at GC knows you're gigging, you can also sometimes
>> ask them. It works for them if you remember them and come back to
>> them. Because they carry so much stuff, it's worth it for you, too.
>
> Works well. And then the staff turns over.
>
> I have found GC handy several times, mainly because the one in
> Northcross Mall in Austin is diagonally across from Go Dance's studio
> there.
>
From my experience, the basic floor staff has a high turnover
rate, but the department managers and store managers tend
to be fairly stable. Establish a professional reputation with the
senior staff helps a lot with service quality.
Heck, I got invited to a seminar with legendary engineer Eddie
Kramer through my GC , um ...connections. [YMMV]

However, the bottom line (as always) is to do one's homework.

==
Later...
Ron C
--