problems with MIDI hookup

[William Sommerwerck]

Here's where I am at the moment...

I have the M-Audio MidiSport 1x1 attached to a computer running W7 Pro 64 SP1.
I'm using the most-recent version of the M-Audio driver, even though it's not
supposed to be required. A Miracle keyboard is attached to the MidiSport.

The CoolSoft software synthesizer is installed, but doesn't work. To get it to
work, I have to run MIDI-OX, with the MidiSport 1x1 selected as the Input, and
the CoolSoftVirtualMIDISynth selected as the Output. (This is in the "MIDI
Devices" dialog box.)

This works, but I get only one voice. And the latency is unbelievable. It
takes close to a second between pressing a key and getting output from the
computer speakers.

The correct questions seem to be...

>> How do I get rid of MIDI-OX (and, presumably, the latency)?
(For what it's worth, MIDI-OX shows the messages going to and from the
keyboard.)

>> How do I select voices?

Thanks in advance.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Here's where I am at the moment...
>
> I have the M-Audio MidiSport 1x1 attached to a computer running W7 Pro
> 64 SP1. I'm using the most-recent version of the M-Audio driver, even
> though it's not supposed to be required. A Miracle keyboard is attached
> to the MidiSport.
>
> The CoolSoft software synthesizer is installed, but doesn't work.

Does the standard Microsoft softsynth work? Does it work without MIDIOX?

I'm at a disadvantage because I use a ROMpler for live playing and only
play back through softsynths in a DAW.

I did an experiment with N-Track 3.0 and I get third of a second to a
second's latency with the Microsoft softsynth. SFAIK, that's that
softsynth itself.

To get
> it to work, I have to run MIDI-OX, with the MidiSport 1x1 selected as
> the Input, and the CoolSoftVirtualMIDISynth selected as the Output.
> (This is in the "MIDI Devices" dialog box.)
>
> This works, but I get only one voice. And the latency is unbelievable.
> It takes close to a second between pressing a key and getting output
> from the computer speakers.
>
> The correct questions seem to be...
>
>>> How do I get rid of MIDI-OX (and, presumably, the latency)?
> (For what it's worth, MIDI-OX shows the messages going to and from the
> keyboard.)
>
>>> How do I select voices?
>
> Thanks in advance.

Have you tried Reaper instead of MidiOX? It may be fiddly getting
it set up. The forum there is excellent and I've never found
anything it won't do.

I bring up Reaper because it's my cue mixer here at home. The
audio latency is low enough that I can use it for that. That is not
MIDI, though.

But the initial experiment looks pretty bad.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/8/2014 6:41 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
> Have you tried Reaper instead of MidiOX? It may be fiddly getting
> it set up.

MidiOx is a router and test set, not a sequencer. CoolSoft is a
synthesizer that's designed to work with a media player. It expects a
virtual (not a real) MIDI output to feed it. I'm pretty sure that it
doesn't work as a VSTi as you'd use with Reaper. MidiOx serves as the
bridge between William's keyboard and the CoolSoft program by providing
the virtual MIDI output that the synth wants.

When you're playing a MIDI file, you don't care about latency, so maybe
the CoolSoft developers didn't, either. Other than that conjecture, I
have no other idea of why his latency between key press and sound is so
great. Last time I had occasion to measure MIDI latency, I think I got
about 4 milliseconds between the analog sound output of the synth and a
soft synth that came along with my Pro Tools 10 Cheap bundle. I thought
that was pretty darn good, certainly good enough for a hack keyboardist
like me to play in real time.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[William Sommerwerck]

"Les Cargill" wrote in message ...

>> The CoolSoft software synthesizer is installed, but doesn't work.

> Does the standard Microsoft softsynth work? Does it work without MIDI-OX?

Yes, I can choose it from the MIDI-OX Output list, and I get a different
voice.

Part of the problem is that I have //no idea// how to select the software
synthesizer //without// MIDI-OX.


> Have you tried Reaper instead of MidiOX? It may be fiddly getting
> it set up. The forum there is excellent and I've never found
> anything it won't do.

I don't understand why it doesn't work //without// MIDI-OX. You're not
supposed to have to use a diagnostic tool to connect two devices.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

> When you're playing a MIDI file, you don't care about latency, so maybe
> the CoolSoft developers didn't, either. Other than that conjecture, I
> have no other idea of why his latency between key press and sound is so
> great. Last time I had occasion to measure MIDI latency, I think I got
> about 4 milliseconds between the analog sound output of the synth and a
> soft synth that came along with my Pro Tools 10 Cheap bundle. I thought
> that was pretty darn good, certainly good enough for a hack keyboardist
> like me to play in real time.

Let's back up a bit. My <ahem> //assumption// is that you are supposed to be
able to connect a MIDI keyboard and MIDI keyboard to your computer, connect
them in some (unspecified) way without using diagnostic software, and play the
synthesizer with the keyboard, in (essentially) real time. This is what I'm
trying to do.

The issue isn't the latency, so much as it is klutzy setup and the inability
to select voices.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/9/2014 6:22 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Let's back up a bit. My <ahem> //assumption// is that you are supposed
> to be able to connect a MIDI keyboard and MIDI keyboard to your
> computer, connect them in some (unspecified) way without using
> diagnostic software, and play the synthesizer with the keyboard, in
> (essentially) real time. This is what I'm trying to do.

Of course you should be able to do that, but from what I read on the web
site, CoolSoft isn't really designed to do that. Try Kontakt. It has a
stand-alone mode, which is what you need. There's a free demo which
won't let you do a lot, but at least you can verify that what you're
expecting to work actually does:

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-5/

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[William Sommerwerck]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

On 9/9/2014 6:22 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Let's back up a bit. My <ahem> //assumption// is that you are supposed
> to be able to connect a MIDI keyboard and MIDI keyboard to your
> computer, connect them in some (unspecified) way without using
> diagnostic software, and play the synthesizer with the keyboard, in
> (essentially) real time. This is what I'm trying to do.

Of course you should be able to do that, but from what I read on the web
site, CoolSoft isn't really designed to do that. Try Kontakt. It has a
stand-alone mode, which is what you need. There's a free demo which
won't let you do a lot, but at least you can verify that what you're
expecting to work actually does:

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-5

Thanks. I'll give it a look-see.

[Nil[_2_]]

On 08 Sep 2014, "William Sommerwerck" >
wrote in rec.audio.pro:

> The CoolSoft software synthesizer is installed, but doesn't work.
> To get it to work, I have to run MIDI-OX, with the MidiSport 1x1
> selected as the Input, and the CoolSoftVirtualMIDISynth selected
> as the Output. (This is in the "MIDI Devices" dialog box.)

From what I can tell from their web site, the Coolsoft synth is not
meant to be used stand alone. It has no visible MIDI input. It needs to
be used with a MIDI host that will see it as available input. I guess
you've got Midiox set up like a host, but that's not what it was made
for, and may not be able to do what quite what you want. Also, the
Coolsoft synth seems to be made mainly for playback of MIDI files, not
with live performance in mind, so it might not be tuned for low
latency.

I'd say you first need to get a good MIDI host. You might try Reaper,
which is mostly a audio recorder/MIDI sequencer, but should also be a
good MIDI host.

I don't know what your goal is, but I have a feeling that Coolsoft
isn't really the right tool for you.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Nil" wrote in message ...

> I don't know what your goal is, but I have a feeling that
> Coolsoft isn't really the right tool for you.

As it's a MIDI synthesizer, why //shouldn't// it work with a MIDI keyboard?

Regardless, thanks for the suggestion.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/9/2014 12:47 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Nil" wrote in message ...
>> I don't know what your goal is, but I have a feeling that
>> Coolsoft isn't really the right tool for you.
>
> As it's a MIDI synthesizer, why //shouldn't// it work with a MIDI keyboard?

Well, it does, as long as you get MIDI to it in the way that it wants to
receive it, as you've proved with MidiOx. But apparently there's no way
for it to see the USB MIDI interface directly, and that's OK because it
was intended for a computer program to send it data, not a device that
talks to the operating system through the MIDI driver that the keyboard
uses.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Nil[_2_]]

On 09 Sep 2014, "William Sommerwerck" >
wrote in rec.audio.pro:

> "Nil" wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I don't know what your goal is, but I have a feeling that
>> Coolsoft isn't really the right tool for you.
>
> As it's a MIDI synthesizer, why //shouldn't// it work with a MIDI
> keyboard?

Because it's not set up to receive direct MIDI input from a hardware
device. It needs to be attached to a host application. That application
will receive the MIDI input an host application.

Many software synthesizers are like this. Some also include a stand-
alone mode that can be directly controlled by an external MIDI hardware
device, but many do not. Your synth is one of those. You are trying to
use MIDI Ox as the host, but I don't think that is a good choice.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Les Cargill" wrote in message ...
>
>>> The CoolSoft software synthesizer is installed, but doesn't work.
>
>> Does the standard Microsoft softsynth work? Does it work without MIDI-OX?
>
> Yes, I can choose it from the MIDI-OX Output list, and I get a different
> voice.
>
> Part of the problem is that I have //no idea// how to select the
> software synthesizer //without// MIDI-OX.
>
>
>> Have you tried Reaper instead of MidiOX? It may be fiddly getting
>> it set up. The forum there is excellent and I've never found
>> anything it won't do.
>
> I don't understand why it doesn't work //without// MIDI-OX. You're not
> supposed to have to use a diagnostic tool to connect two devices.


Midi-OX is also a MIDI "bridge" -- in the tradition of others
from the past. SFAIK, there ain't one in Windows. IOW, there is
nothing native in Windows which forwards the MIDI messages to the
CoolSoft engine from the MIDI IN port.

They call it a "virtual MIDI cable".

Mike mentioned Kontakt - that may well be a good thing to try.

--
Les Cargill

[jason]

On Tue, 9 Sep 2014 03:18:44 -0700 "William Sommerwerck"
> wrote in article <lumk68$oju$1@dont-
email.me>
>
> "Les Cargill" wrote in message ...
>
> >> The CoolSoft software synthesizer is installed, but doesn't work.
>
> > Does the standard Microsoft softsynth work? Does it work without MIDI-OX?
>
> Yes, I can choose it from the MIDI-OX Output list, and I get a different
> voice.
>
> Part of the problem is that I have //no idea// how to select the software
> synthesizer //without// MIDI-OX.
>
Perhaps I don't understand the problem, but most garden variety sound
cards have MIDI ports - can't you just hook the Miracle kbd to them?

[Nil[_2_]]

On 09 Sep 2014, Jason > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> Perhaps I don't understand the problem, but most garden variety
> sound cards have MIDI ports - can't you just hook the Miracle kbd
> to them?

You don't understand. The problem isn't hooking up the keyboard. The
"problem" (thought it isn't really a problem) is that CoolSoft
VirtualMIDISynth is only a MIDI Out device. That is, it presents itself
to host applications as a possible MIDI destination. The softsynth has
no user-selectable MIDI In - you cannot send the output of the MIDI
keyboard directly to it. Instead, you would send the keyboard to a host
application, and set the output of the host to the softsynth.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Jason" wrote in message
...

> Perhaps I don't understand the problem, but most garden variety sound
> cards have MIDI ports - can't you just hook the Miracle kbd to them?

Excellent question! The ASUS board uses a Realtek chip, and there is no
apparent option for a MIDI connection. (There is no MIDI jack on the back.)

[William Sommerwerck]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...
On 9/9/2014 12:47 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Nil" wrote in message ...

>>> I don't know what your goal is, but I have a feeling that
>>> Coolsoft isn't really the right tool for you.

>> As it's a MIDI synthesizer, why //shouldn't// it work with a MIDI keyboard?

> Well, it does, as long as you get MIDI to it in the way that it wants to
> receive it, as you've proved with MidiOx. But apparently there's no way for
> it to see the USB MIDI interface directly, and that's OK because it was
> intended for a computer program to send it data, not a device that talks to
> the operating system through the MIDI driver that the keyboard uses.

I guess that explains it. "Common sense" takes another major hit! <grin>

[jason]

On 10 Sep 2014 00:59:12 GMT "Nil" > wrote
in article >
>
> On 09 Sep 2014, Jason > wrote in
> rec.audio.pro:
>
> > Perhaps I don't understand the problem, but most garden variety
> > sound cards have MIDI ports - can't you just hook the Miracle kbd
> > to them?
>
> You don't understand.
....
> Instead, you would send the keyboard to a host
> application, and set the output of the host to the softsynth.

I get it. Several machines I've owned had Creative sound cards and they
did have MIDI in/out. I guess that went by the wayside in the era of
mother-board native audio.

[Sean Conolly]

"Nil" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd say you first need to get a good MIDI host. You might try Reaper,
> which is mostly a audio recorder/MIDI sequencer, but should also be a
> good MIDI host.
>
> I don't know what your goal is, but I have a feeling that Coolsoft
> isn't really the right tool for you.

FWIW, I've used Reaper sort of like this, using different VSTi soft syths
and an Akai controller (MIDI over USB). I was able to use the Akia as a
straight keyboard, and also use the knobs as faders for capturing volume
envelopes. That last part worked, but was too awkward to be useful to me.

Sean

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/9/2014 9:47 PM, Jason wrote:
> I get it. Several machines I've owned had Creative sound cards and they
> did have MIDI in/out. I guess that went by the wayside in the era of
> mother-board native audio.

There are still MIDI inputs and outputs, but these days it's common to
use USB to move their data into and out of a computer. That's how you
can have a "USB MIDI keyboard" or an audio interface that connects to
the computer via USB and has 5-pin MIDI IN and OUT connectors on it.

There's a driver that says to the operating system "This USB device
sends and receives MIDI data." The application program reads and records
the incoming MIDI data and sends it out to a device or, in this case,
another program, that makes the noises and sends them through the sound
card to the speakers so you can hear it.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[mark lewis[_2_]]

On Tue, 09 Sep 2014, "William Sommerwerck" wrote to All:

WS> "Jason" wrote in message
WS> ...

J> Perhaps I don't understand the problem, but most garden variety
J> sound cards have MIDI ports - can't you just hook the Miracle kbd
J> to them?

WS> Excellent question! The ASUS board uses a Realtek chip, and there
WS> is no apparent option for a MIDI connection. (There is no MIDI
WS> jack on the back.)

IIRC, the joystick port was used for MIDI back in the day... you used one or the other but both plugged into the same port... is there a joystick port on that ASUS board or is it all USB? which ASUS board is it?

)\/(ark

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[William Sommerwerck]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

> There's a driver that says to the operating system "This USB device
> sends and receives MIDI data." The application program reads and
> records the incoming MIDI data and sends it out to a device or, in this
> case, another program, that makes the noises and sends them through
> the sound card to the speakers so you can hear it.

I have, for the moment, "resolved" the problem. I installed "Piano for
Dummies", and lo and behold, the program recognized everything. I told it to
use the Midisport 1x1 and the CoolSoft synthesizer, and it worked. I could
pick a voice from a long list, and the Miracle Keyboard used it. Both the In
and Out data lights on the Midisport flicker.

You're supposed to be able to have the keyboard play through the computer, but
it doesn't work. Yet.

As I proceed through the course, I will find out whether everything is working
right (such as being able to record and play back your attempts to

By the way, I installed Kontakt and its library -- and have no idea how to use
it.

I appreciate everyone's help.

[William Sommerwerck]

"mark lewis" wrote in message ...

> IIRC, the joystick port was used for MIDI back in the day...
> You used one or the other but both plugged into the same port...

I still have the MediaVision MIDI interface for the joystick port.


> Is there a joystick port on that ASUS board or is it all USB?

It's all USB.


> Which ASUS board is it?

P8Z77-V Deluxe.