Re: Counterfeit wires

[Scott Dorsey]

Jason > wrote:
>Yikes! A friend of mine, a retired EE, has been exchanging email with
>some of us regarding his experience buying wire. He is installing an
>alarm system and had purchased 2x22, 4x22, and a lot of CAT5 ethernet
>cabling only to find that ALL of it was apparently counterfeit. The 2011
>NEC requires that residential wiring, except for coax, be made of copper.
>*ALL* the wire he bought turned out to be copper-plated aluminum. This
>guy is dogged and began serious research only to find that even reputable
>vendors are publishing apologies online about their apparently
>unwittingly selling counterfit wire. I don't know if audio wiring is so
>subject to this, but apparently anything made in China is suspect. Some
>vendors have been resorting to hologram labels to try to prevent this,
>but my friend found apologies online from some US vendors selling cable
>with just such (fake) holograms. Another friend works at Markertek; they
>make custom cables and are mentioned frequently here as a reliable
>source. I asked him to toss me some of the scraps to see if they are
>(unwittingly) selling fake wire too.

I hear about a lot of people getting the aluminum stuff off ebay, but I
have not heard of any legtimate suppliers selling the stuff. Just another
reason to buy from folks like Markertek and Belden and the like.

But even a clean supply chain is not absolute assurance. I got some
counterfeit 2N3055 transistors from a legitimate national supplier. It
turns out they had a customer order transistors, and then return the
fake ones, cancelling the order, and keeping the real ones. Now their
warehouse has some of the fakes and they have to track them all down...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Scott Dorsey > wrote:
> But even a clean supply chain is not absolute assurance. I got some
> counterfeit 2N3055 transistors from a legitimate national supplier. It
> turns out they had a customer order transistors, and then return the
> fake ones, cancelling the order, and keeping the real ones. Now their
> warehouse has some of the fakes and they have to track them all down...

Amazing the lengths some will go to for a few pennies.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[[email protected]]

>The 2011 NEC requires that residential wiring, except for coax, be made of
> copper.

are you sure this code applies to low energy systems like alarms and communications ....

or just electrical power wiring like Romex?

Mark

[jason]

On Tue, 20 May 2014 09:31:56 -0700 (PDT) "
> wrote in article <5e049b86-260a-4ed9-89b6-
>
>
> >The 2011 NEC requires that residential wiring, except for coax, be made of
> > copper.
>
> are you sure this code applies to low energy systems like alarms and communications ....
>
> or just electrical power wiring like Romex?
>
> Mark
>

I'm not sure why copper is so important, but the NEC's worried about fire
retardant (or lack thereof) in the insulation/jacket.

[None]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> Amazing the lengths some will go to for a few pennies.

There's a LOT more than pennies in this.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
None > wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Amazing the lengths some will go to for a few pennies.

> There's a LOT more than pennies in this.

Just how many 2n3055 would a distributor stock? If they got an order for
thousands from a new customer wouldn't it ring alarm bells?

--
*I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Scott Dorsey]

Dave Plowman (News) > wrote:
>In article >,
> None > wrote:
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Amazing the lengths some will go to for a few pennies.
>
>> There's a LOT more than pennies in this.
>
>Just how many 2n3055 would a distributor stock? If they got an order for
>thousands from a new customer wouldn't it ring alarm bells?

Digi-Key has about 3200 of them in stock this morning.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jay Ts[_3_]]

On Tue, 20 May 2014 20:30:26 -0400, Jason wrote:

> On Tue, 20 May 2014 09:31:56 -0700 (PDT) "
> > wrote in article <5e049b86-260a-4ed9-89b6-
> >
>>
>> >The 2011 NEC requires that residential wiring, except for coax, be
>> >made of
>> > copper.
>>
>> are you sure this code applies to low energy systems like alarms and
>> communications ....
>>
>> or just electrical power wiring like Romex?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
> I'm not sure why copper is so important, but the NEC's worried about
> fire retardant (or lack thereof) in the insulation/jacket.

It's not just that. Serious safety (fire hazard) issues can arise when
using aluminum wire to carry 120v/240v power, especially when it's mixed
with copper without using proper methods.

If there is counterfeit wire sold for use as household power wiring that
is made to look like copper but is actually aluminum, I find that pretty
scary.

I don't know if aluminum wire in ethernet cables is a problem, but when
they developed the technology, they called it "ethernet over copper", not
aluminum! :D

Caveat: I'm not an electrician, and I have never read the NEC. ;)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jay Ts > wrote:
> It's not just that. Serious safety (fire hazard) issues can arise when
> using aluminum wire to carry 120v/240v power, especially when it's mixed
> with copper without using proper methods.

Aluminium can be used for power cables - it was available in the UK some
40 years ago and met the relevant spec for domestic use. It was never
popular, though. It did have some disadvantages in practice. It became
available when copper was in short supply and very expensive.

> If there is counterfeit wire sold for use as household power wiring that
> is made to look like copper but is actually aluminum, I find that pretty
> scary.

What is scary is a cable being sold when it doesn't conform to the
appropriate specification for that use. But IMHO that is the
responsibility of the seller. It's hardly rocket science to tell one from
the other.

--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Sean Conolly]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jay Ts > wrote:
>> It's not just that. Serious safety (fire hazard) issues can arise when
>> using aluminum wire to carry 120v/240v power, especially when it's mixed
>> with copper without using proper methods.
>
> Aluminium can be used for power cables - it was available in the UK some
> 40 years ago and met the relevant spec for domestic use. It was never
> popular, though. It did have some disadvantages in practice. It became
> available when copper was in short supply and very expensive.
>

There was a time when aluminum was allowed in residential construction at
least in some states (Florida in the 70's for sure). I don't believe it's
allowed in new residential construction anywhere in the US now, but I
haven't checked.

Sean

[Scott Dorsey]

Sean Conolly > wrote:
>
>There was a time when aluminum was allowed in residential construction at
>least in some states (Florida in the 70's for sure). I don't believe it's
>allowed in new residential construction anywhere in the US now, but I
>haven't checked.

It's still allowed for service entry wiring, just not for anything smaller.
The aluminum power wiring is fine IF you use the correct reducing goo on
all fittings, you use fittings intended for aluminum, you size the cable
appropriately, and you are very careful about installation. The conductors
are brittle and sharp twists and jerks will cause them to crack. This causes
problems that may not show up for a few years until a heavy load is put on.

I doubt the original poster's problem is an electrical service problem,
though. It is likely just to be an ordinary ground loop. Lift the _audio_
grounds on pin 1 coming into the inputs, and try doing the same on the
outputs. Every device needs one and only one connection to the grounding
system, never two, never zero. The PE pin on the power outlet provides one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."