soldering tips

[Nate Najar]

no, the actual hardware....

I have a weller 40 watt. It works well- it might be too hot but I haven't destroyed anything yet and it is efficient.

The tip broke! I've been using the regular pencil tip that came with it. Is that the best tip for making and repairing cables and such or is there some trade secret on something that's better?

thanks!

N

[[email protected]]

The secret is to use an iron that has a feedback controlled temperature.
The fancy ones have a knob that you can set the temp.
Others have a fixed temp that is set by the tip and the temp is usually stamped on the bottom of the tip.
650 to 750 is a good range.

Mark
..

[geoff]

On 29/04/2014 2:21 p.m., wrote:
> The secret is to use an iron that has a feedback controlled temperature.
> The fancy ones have a knob that you can set the temp.
> Others have a fixed temp that is set by the tip and the temp is usually stamped on the bottom of the tip.
> 650 to 750 is a good range.
>
> Mark
> .
>


I forget the code, but I seem to recall "8" is the hottest and "7" is
pretty common.

I find hotter is better than medium, as the solder job gets done more
quickly and less heat is conducted away (over time) to shrivel
insulation, lift pcb tracks, etc.

geoff

[PStamler]

On Monday, April 28, 2014 6:27:39 PM UTC-6, Nate Najar wrote:
> no, the actual hardware....
>
>
>
> I have a weller 40 watt. It works well- it might be too hot but I haven't destroyed anything yet and it is efficient.
>
>
>
> The tip broke! I've been using the regular pencil tip that came with it. Is that the best tip for making and repairing cables and such or is there some trade secret on something that's better?

It's really a matter of personal taste. I've had the best luck with the rounded-chisel tip.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Nate Najar > wrote:
>no, the actual hardware....
>
>I have a weller 40 watt. It works well- it might be too hot but I haven't destroyed anything yet and it is efficient.

Does it have temperature control?

>The tip broke! I've been using the regular pencil tip that came with it. Is that the best tip for making and repairing cables and such or is there some trade secret on something that's better?

Personally I like the pencil tip for most things, but I like a small chisel tip
for XLR connectors because you can put the side of the tip against the
side of the solder cup and get a lot of contact area. The more contact area,
the faster the work heats up and your goal is to heat the work up fast so the
work melts the solder but doesn't melt the insulation.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Sean Conolly > wrote:
>
>Sadly after 15 years I've managed to toast mine and it just stays on
>constantly now. Trying to decide if I should just replace the springy guts
>or buy a new one with a dial.

Often this happens to the WTPC irons from working around strong magnets,
like speakers. If you have to do that, get one with the servo temperature
control. Otherwise getting a new element for the WTPC is pretty cheap.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"geoff" > wrote in message
...
> On 29/04/2014 2:21 p.m., wrote:
>> The secret is to use an iron that has a feedback controlled temperature.
>> The fancy ones have a knob that you can set the temp.
>> Others have a fixed temp that is set by the tip and the temp is usually
>> stamped on the bottom of the tip.
>> 650 to 750 is a good range.

650 deg is too cold for lead free solder.


> I forget the code, but I seem to recall "8" is the hottest and "7" is
> pretty common.

8 is 800degF and 7 is 700degF.

Trevor.

[[email protected]]

Well, in the interest of science, and as a Christian, the secret to using one ot these cheap irons is to have a wet napkin available when you are soldering. The tip of the iron must first be tinned, by heating it to the melting point of the solder, then you should have a Flux, which is usually made of rosin,
When the tip is hot, dip it in the flux, and melt some solder on the tip. This should made it all nice and shiny with the solder. When this tip is shiny , its good for soldering.
For additional soldering, the tip gets too hot, so wipe in on the wet towels until it shines again, and solder
The lack of temperature control, lets the the tinning on the tip to get too hot, and this causes it to oxidize, becoming dark and a poor conductor of heat. The wiping on the wet paper towels removes the oxide, and makes the tip more heat conductive toward melting the solder.
Any piece of copper with the same sizes required, will make a good tip.
I've substituted number 9 copper wire for a tip many times. A snug fit of copper, a filled tip, tinned properly, will make a good soldering tip.
The secret to good soldering is the tinning of the tip of the soldering iron-- it should have a smooth solder, shiny contact area, and the flux must me on the point to be soldered, to remove the air when the molten solder makes contact- it shines-- and the metal to metal is formed. If the shine is not there, a cold solder joint will result, with a future failure. Solder melts at approx 630 deg F, if it goes above that, the surface. gets oxidized and doesn't make good electrical continuity
I was taught to tin a soldering tip , the old gas heated irons, using a brick with a gully gouged in it, then melting the solder into the gully, with flux, and rubbing it all around. The rubbing, scoured the coper surface within the molten pool of solder and flux, and TINNED the iron for good soldering. On todays miniature tip irons, a piece of sandpaper can be used with the rosin-core soldering wire, and give good results
Heat the point needing the solder, FIRST! then apply contact with the solder, until it FLOWS.

[[email protected]]

Rosin Core soldering wire will not require buying solder flux.

[William Sommerwerck]

Excellent run-down of soldering basics.

I came into electronics during the transition from vacuum state to solid
state. As parts got smaller, there was increasing reluctance * to hold the
iron in place until the joint itself got hot enough to melt the solder. I've
always broken that rule, but don't remember ever making a bad joint. If a
joint is clean and bright, it's probably a good joint.

One rule not mentioned is to use a pair of grooved pliers to scrape the
oxidation off resistor and capacitor leads.

* Would someone please turn that into a joke? It's still a bit early for me.

[[email protected]]

Iron won't solder good, aluminum, not at all. Basically, soldering, electronically is copper to copper, ( or silver, gold, zinc, Ha ha). Old radio chassis were galvanized with a zinc coating, but today ???

[[email protected]]

Your right, also, heat conductors can be attached to the contacts or wires of heat sensitive items to protect them.

[[email protected]]

I came into the electronics era from the Galina Crystal era Ha!, thats back around 1930's

[[email protected]]

We'd use an Oatmeal Box to make the inductance, along with a cats whisker galena detector to hear the AM radio stations. The biggest cos was the earphones

[[email protected]]

As your "joke", I was taught to use a dull knife, and scrape the wires, before even making the wire splices, like, the WesternUnion Longtie, WesternUnion
Shortctie, Plain Tee or Tap, Areal Tee or Tap and the Rart Tail Splices. That was when I was in the 7th grade, and I graduated from Northampton HS, PA, in 1944!

[[email protected]]

Ill never forget the decline of the vacuum era, when I made a transistor multivibrator circuit, using a depleted D battery, from my flashlight, and it oscillated for three days !!

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Trevor > wrote:
>"geoff" > wrote in message
...
>> On 29/04/2014 2:21 p.m., wrote:
>>> The secret is to use an iron that has a feedback controlled temperature.
>>> The fancy ones have a knob that you can set the temp.
>>> Others have a fixed temp that is set by the tip and the temp is usually
>>> stamped on the bottom of the tip.
>>> 650 to 750 is a good range.
>
>650 deg is too cold for lead free solder.

This is true, but hopefully nobody is making up new cables with lead-free
solder.

>> I forget the code, but I seem to recall "8" is the hottest and "7" is
>> pretty common.
>
>8 is 800degF and 7 is 700degF.

A lot of the newer lead-free stuff is very very touchy about working
temperature, because the flux burns off at a temperature not much higher
than the solder melts. If you're having to work with that stuff, having
an iron with external control to allow continuous settings can be a help.

Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
> wrote:
>Rosin Core soldering wire will not require buying solder flux.

You can never have too much flux. A little bottle of rosin on the bench
can really help a lot of work, both working on old crusty gear and in doing
tiny SMT stuff.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tom McCreadie]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

>Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.

Folks who sold(i)er on with lead-containing materials are - like sea captains
who go down with their ships - a dying race. :-)
--
Tom McCreadie

"Music is the greatest silent force in the world." - Lionel Richie

[John Williamson]

On 02/05/2014 14:41, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article >, Trevor > wrote:
>> "geoff" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 29/04/2014 2:21 p.m., wrote:
>>>> The secret is to use an iron that has a feedback controlled temperature.
>>>> The fancy ones have a knob that you can set the temp.
>>>> Others have a fixed temp that is set by the tip and the temp is usually
>>>> stamped on the bottom of the tip.
>>>> 650 to 750 is a good range.
>>
>> 650 deg is too cold for lead free solder.
>
> This is true, but hopefully nobody is making up new cables with lead-free
> solder.
>
Have you tried buying anything else lately?

(In the UK, at least)

In Europe as a whole, the ROHS rules mean that (Commercially, anyway)
anyone not using lead free solder in manufacture (or repair of equipment
originally made using lead free solder) is liable to some quite drastic
penalties if caught.

Exceptions are made for things like medical and aviation equipment.

I am husbanding my supplies of real solder very carefully. If I see any
on a shop shelf, I buy it.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
John Williamson > wrote:
> > This is true, but hopefully nobody is making up new cables with
> > lead-free solder.
> >
> Have you tried buying anything else lately?

> (In the UK, at least)

All the major suppliers like CPC etc stock it. But probably not the sheds
or Maplin.

--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> This is true, but hopefully nobody is making up new cables with
> lead-free solder.

Seems to be the only kind available over the counter over here. Recently
bought an extra (partial) roll of real solder privately, reckon it is
contraband by now.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

Tom McCreadie > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>>Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.
>
>Folks who sold(i)er on with lead-containing materials are - like sea captains
>who go down with their ships - a dying race. :-)

Yes, but they have a whole lot fewer failures, especially in the high voltage
high Z world.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Peter Larsen > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> This is true, but hopefully nobody is making up new cables with
>> lead-free solder.
>
>Seems to be the only kind available over the counter over here. Recently
>bought an extra (partial) roll of real solder privately, reckon it is
>contraband by now.

Nahh, the NATO military folks mandate 63/37 still, so do most of the European
telecom folks. I don't see that changing any time soon, as those guys need
stuff to work.

Buerklin certainly stocks 63/37.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Buerklin certainly stocks 63/37.

Thank you!

> --scott

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/2/2014 9:00 AM, wrote:
> I came into the electronics era from the Galina Crystal era Ha!, thats back around 1930's

From your earlier comments, I figured you were a plumber or auto body
repairman. ;)



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[geoff]

On 3/05/2014 2:09 a.m., Tom McCreadie wrote:
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.
>
> Folks who sold(i)er on with lead-containing materials are - like sea captains
> who go down with their ships - a dying race. :-)
>


The ship went down probably because some vital component used crappy
lead-free solder.

geoff

[geoff]

On 3/05/2014 12:22 a.m., wrote:
> Well, in the interest of science, and as a Christian, .....


Well, as an atheist, I don't see WFT that has to do with anything !

geoff

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.

IF you are *only* making your own cables, perhaps, for the rest of us the
choice has long been out of our control.

Trevor.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Trevor > wrote:

> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.

> IF you are *only* making your own cables, perhaps, for the rest of us
> the choice has long been out of our control.

Which country is it impossible to buy leaded multi-core in?

--
*A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Trevor]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Trevor > wrote:
>> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.
>
>> IF you are *only* making your own cables, perhaps, for the rest of us
>> the choice has long been out of our control.
>
> Which country is it impossible to buy leaded multi-core in?

Which country is it possible to buy or sell electronics made with leaded
solder? Aus has certainly followed Europe with ROHS regulations anyway.

Trevor.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Trevor > wrote:
>"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Trevor > wrote:
>>> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > Avoid the lead-free stuff like the plague.
>>
>>> IF you are *only* making your own cables, perhaps, for the rest of us
>>> the choice has long been out of our control.
>>
>> Which country is it impossible to buy leaded multi-core in?
>
>Which country is it possible to buy or sell electronics made with leaded
>solder? Aus has certainly followed Europe with ROHS regulations anyway.

It's interesting here in the US, where RoHS isn't required but where almost
all consumer products are RoHS so they can be sold globally without having to
do dual-production.

Here, there are quite a few computer products that can be ordered non-RoHS
although you have to specify it in advance.

For audio gear, all the mass-produced MI store stuff is RoHS, but a lot of
the smaller production guys have resisted it, especially people doing
anything that requires high voltages and tight spacing. Some of that stuff
still gets exported to Europe as non-RoHS stuff under various exemptions,
other folks will do a special run.

Talk to EveAnna Manley about the headaches she has been through....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 5/5/2014 9:23 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> It's interesting here in the US, where RoHS isn't required but where almost
> all consumer products are RoHS so they can be sold globally without having to
> do dual-production.
>
> Here, there are quite a few computer products that can be ordered non-RoHS
> although you have to specify it in advance.
>
> For audio gear, all the mass-produced MI store stuff is RoHS, but a lot of
> the smaller production guys have resisted it, especially people doing
> anything that requires high voltages and tight spacing. Some of that stuff
> still gets exported to Europe as non-RoHS stuff under various exemptions,
> other folks will do a special run.
>
> Talk to EveAnna Manley about the headaches she has been through....
> --scott

Talk to Mark and Beth McQuilken about the same thing.

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 > wrote:
>On 5/5/2014 9:23 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> It's interesting here in the US, where RoHS isn't required but where almost
>> all consumer products are RoHS so they can be sold globally without having to
>> do dual-production.
>>
>> Here, there are quite a few computer products that can be ordered non-RoHS
>> although you have to specify it in advance.
>>
>> For audio gear, all the mass-produced MI store stuff is RoHS, but a lot of
>> the smaller production guys have resisted it, especially people doing
>> anything that requires high voltages and tight spacing. Some of that stuff
>> still gets exported to Europe as non-RoHS stuff under various exemptions,
>> other folks will do a special run.
>>
>> Talk to EveAnna Manley about the headaches she has been through....
>
>Talk to Mark and Beth McQuilken about the same thing.

They have even worse problems since they do a lot of contract manufacturing
in the same facility.

And the one thing that is worse than RoHS solder is a mixture of RoHS and
leaded solders caused by cross-contamination in a factory that does both.
So you really don't want to be doing both if you can at all avoid it. I
have seen so much of that going on with stuff from China recently.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

On 6/05/2014 12:21 a.m., Trevor wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message

>>
>> Which country is it impossible to buy leaded multi-core in?
>
> Which country is it possible to buy or sell electronics made with leaded
> solder? Aus has certainly followed Europe with ROHS regulations anyway.
>
> Trevor.


If that was meant as an answer, that wasn't the question.

geoff

[Trevor]

"geoff" > wrote in message
...
>>>> IF you are *only* making your own cables, perhaps, for the rest of us
>>>> the choice has long been out of our control.
>
>>> Which country is it impossible to buy leaded multi-core in?
>>
>> Which country is it possible to buy or sell electronics made with leaded
>> solder? Aus has certainly followed Europe with ROHS regulations anyway.
>
> If that was meant as an answer, that wasn't the question.

The question was irrelevant to my original statement.

Trevor.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Trevor > wrote:

> "geoff" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>> IF you are *only* making your own cables, perhaps, for the rest of
> >>>> us the choice has long been out of our control.
> >
> >>> Which country is it impossible to buy leaded multi-core in?
> >>
> >> Which country is it possible to buy or sell electronics made with
> >> leaded solder? Aus has certainly followed Europe with ROHS
> >> regulations anyway.
> >
> > If that was meant as an answer, that wasn't the question.

> The question was irrelevant to my original statement.

It was in context for the thread. Which is about 'home' soldering - not
manufacture. ;-)

Many seem to think it's not possible to buy leaded solder.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Trevor]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Trevor > wrote:
>> "geoff" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>>> IF you are *only* making your own cables, perhaps, for the rest of
>> >>>> us the choice has long been out of our control.
>> >
>> >>> Which country is it impossible to buy leaded multi-core in?
>> >>
>> >> Which country is it possible to buy or sell electronics made with
>> >> leaded solder? Aus has certainly followed Europe with ROHS
>> >> regulations anyway.
>> >
>> > If that was meant as an answer, that wasn't the question.
>
>> The question was irrelevant to my original statement.
>
> It was in context for the thread. Which is about 'home' soldering - not
> manufacture. ;-)
>
> Many seem to think it's not possible to buy leaded solder.


I wouldn't have said : "IF you are only making your own cables, perhaps" if
I thought that, would I.

Trevor.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Trevor > wrote:
> > It was in context for the thread. Which is about 'home' soldering - not
> > manufacture. ;-)
> >
> > Many seem to think it's not possible to buy leaded solder.


> I wouldn't have said : "IF you are only making your own cables, perhaps"
> if I thought that, would I.

I make rather more than just cables using leaded solder. ;-)

--
* I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/5/2014 7:08 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>> The question was irrelevant to my original statement.
>
> It was in context for the thread. Which is about 'home' soldering - not
> manufacture. ;-)
>
> Many seem to think it's not possible to buy leaded solder.

I'm sure there must be a country where leaded electronics-type solder
isn't available but there's no problem ordering it from Digi-Key in the US

Lots of choices here: http://tinyurl.com/ljb38pb

I guess plumbers don't use leaded solder any more, but that's so we
don't drink the lead. But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
it lead-free? Probably not.




--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Mike Rivers > wrote:
> On 5/5/2014 7:08 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> >> The question was irrelevant to my original statement.
> >
> > It was in context for the thread. Which is about 'home' soldering - not
> > manufacture. ;-)
> >
> > Many seem to think it's not possible to buy leaded solder.

> I'm sure there must be a country where leaded electronics-type solder
> isn't available but there's no problem ordering it from Digi-Key in the
> US

> Lots of choices here: http://tinyurl.com/ljb38pb

Yup - same in the UK. But not on the high street, probably.

> I guess plumbers don't use leaded solder any more, but that's so we
> don't drink the lead.

It can still be bought and used on non potable water here. Like the
heating system, etc.

> But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
> it lead-free? Probably not.

That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk since it
can get sanded down.

--
*A hangover is the wrath of grapes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>> But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
>> it lead-free? Probably not.
>
> That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk since it
> can get sanded down.

Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
ultimately find their way to a landfill.



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 5/6/2014 11:31 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>
>>> But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
>>> it lead-free? Probably not.
>>
>> That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk
>> since it
>> can get sanded down.
>
> Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
> ultimately find their way to a landfill.
>
>
I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.

==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

[William Sommerwerck]

"Ron C" wrote in message
...

> I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
> pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
> lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
> offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
> sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.

The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the water
supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is significant. I
would like to see evidence one way or another.

[John Williamson]

On 06/05/2014 17:35, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Ron C" wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
>> pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
>> lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
>> offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
>> sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
>> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
>> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
>> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.
>
> The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the
> water supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is
> significant. I would like to see evidence one way or another.

Compared with what leaks out when the electrolytics corrode, I'd not
reckon it's even in the same league of harmfulness.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Frank Stearns]

"William Sommerwerck" > writes:

>"Ron C" wrote in message
...

>> I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
>> pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
>> lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
>> offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
>> sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
>> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
>> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
>> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.

>The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the water
>supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is significant. I
>would like to see evidence one way or another.

A good suspicion to have. Most land fills these days are lined, so going to
lead-free is rather moot on that point.

What I find silly is that battery production accounts for the overwhelming use of
lead (along with the equally-nasty-to-smelt nickel), while electronics is a small
percentage. But electric cars are environmentally hip, so we ignore the dirty
smelting in those cases. Appears to be another instance of uninformed emotion
trumping rational thought, and in the process causing many unintended consequences,
such a circuit-shorting tin whiskers or poorly seated parts. And from that, we waste
more resources as we replace this crap wholesale with a greater frequency. (I'm just
glad avionics and medical gear are exempt from these absurd rules.)

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

[geoff]

On 7/05/2014 3:31 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>
>>> But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
>>> it lead-free? Probably not.
>>
>> That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk
>> since it
>> can get sanded down.
>
> Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
> ultimately find their way to a landfill.

Thought they'd exclusively use plastic expoxy filler for decades now !

geoff

[geoff]

On 7/05/2014 4:44 a.m., John Williamson wrote:
> On 06/05/2014 17:35, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "Ron C" wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
>>> pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
>>> lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
>>> offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
>>> sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
>>> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
>>> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
>>> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.
>>
>> The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the
>> water supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is
>> significant. I would like to see evidence one way or another.
>
> Compared with what leaks out when the electrolytics corrode, I'd not
> reckon it's even in the same league of harmfulness.
>


Oh it definitely is - look what happened to Rome. Mind you, I heard
(maybe an urban legend) that many water mains in the USA still use lead
piping. If true, that may explain a few things ....

All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics !) is an
enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.

geoff

[John Williamson]

On 06/05/2014 22:07, geoff wrote:
> On 7/05/2014 3:31 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
>> On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>
>>>> But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
>>>> it lead-free? Probably not.
>>>
>>> That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk
>>> since it
>>> can get sanded down.
>>
>> Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
>> ultimately find their way to a landfill.
>
> Thought they'd exclusively use plastic expoxy filler for decades now !
>
Some of the classic car people still use lead loading, and it *is* real
lead. Keeps it authentic and gives a better, more reliable fill than the
epoxy stuff if it's done right. We are, though, talking about a few
dozen cars a year in the UK, using a only a few ounces of lead in most
cases.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[William Sommerwerck]

"geoff" wrote in message
...

> Look what happened to Rome.

Romans supposedly liked to sweeten their wine with sugar of lead -- lead(ii)
acetate. This contributed to lead poisoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate

By the way, lead acetate is the stuff in Grecian Formula and other "comb-in"
hair colorants.


> Mind you, I heard (maybe an urban legend) that many water mains
> in the USA still use lead piping. If true, that may explain a few things...

I don't know if they still are, but as late as the 1920s, lead manufacturers
touted how lead pipes kept the water supply pure. (I'm seen the ads.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2509614/


> All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics!)
> is an enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.

It's not likely to happen -- considering the amount of electronic waste
generated, and the way much is sent to third-world countries for cheap
extraction of gold and (I assume) copper.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...

> What I find silly is that battery production accounts for the
> overwhelming use of lead (along with the equally-nasty-to-
> smelt nickel), while electronics is a small percentage.

But lead batteries are heavily recycled -- not dumped into landfills.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/6/2014 12:26 PM, Ron C wrote:
> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.

This is the argument that the small electronic manufacturers are giving,
but consider how much solder is in a phone compared to a solder-filled
dent in a fender. The solder they use for auto body repair comes in bars
about 1/4" x 1/2" and is 70% lead (30 % tin).

There indeed is lead free body solder now. Why am I not surprised?


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

geoff wrote:
> On 7/05/2014 4:44 a.m., John Williamson wrote:
>> On 06/05/2014 17:35, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>> "Ron C" wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
>>>> pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
>>>> lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
>>>> offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
>>>> sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
>>>> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
>>>> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
>>>> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.
>>>
>>> The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the
>>> water supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is
>>> significant. I would like to see evidence one way or another.
>>
>> Compared with what leaks out when the electrolytics corrode, I'd not
>> reckon it's even in the same league of harmfulness.
>>
>
>
> Oh it definitely is - look what happened to Rome. Mind you, I heard
> (maybe an urban legend) that many water mains in the USA still use lead
> piping. If true, that may explain a few things ....
>

That was not the lead piping. It was lead salts used as a sweetener.

> All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics !) is an
> enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.
>

Nobody wants to pay for that.


> geoff

--
Les Cargill

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Mike Rivers > wrote:
> This is the argument that the small electronic manufacturers are giving,
> but consider how much solder is in a phone compared to a solder-filled
> dent in a fender. The solder they use for auto body repair comes in bars
> about 1/4" x 1/2" and is 70% lead (30 % tin).

I'd be most surprised if any body shop used lead these days to fill a dent
- except where it was used on a classic, etc. Far too expensive.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[geoff]

On 7/05/2014 10:53 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 5/6/2014 12:26 PM, Ron C wrote:
>> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
>> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
>> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.
>
> This is the argument that the small electronic manufacturers are giving,
> but consider how much solder is in a phone compared to a solder-filled
> dent in a fender. The solder they use for auto body repair comes in bars
> about 1/4" x 1/2" and is 70% lead (30 % tin).
>
> There indeed is lead free body solder now. Why am I not surprised?

I'm sure the amount of (potential) lead in solder would be a zillion
times the amount of lead used in rare automotive repairs.


geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:
...
>
>> I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
>> pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
>> lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
>> offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
>> sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
>> I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
>> solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
>> I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.
>
>The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the water
>supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is significant. I
>would like to see evidence one way or another.

I have no doubt that this does happen, and it's probably an issue with
discarded electronic equipment in landfills.

But if anything, the RoHS rules have increased the amount of electronic
equipment being discarded, which does not seem like an improvement from an
ecological perspective to me, even if lead itself might be reduced.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...
>
>> What I find silly is that battery production accounts for the
>> overwhelming use of lead (along with the equally-nasty-to-
>> smelt nickel), while electronics is a small percentage.
>
>But lead batteries are heavily recycled -- not dumped into landfills.

They're recycled in REALLY SCARY facilities in Tijuana.... the landfill
might even be an improvement...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
...
>> All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics !) is an
>> enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.
>>
>
> Nobody wants to pay for that.

And yet a huge proportion of e-waste here is recycled, the money made in
precious elements recovered paying for it. In fact it costs a not so small
*fortune* to dump non e-waste at our local tip, and *nothing* to recycle
e-waste!

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"John Williamson" > wrote in message
...
> Some of the classic car people still use lead loading, and it *is* real
> lead. Keeps it authentic and gives a better, more reliable fill than the
> epoxy stuff if it's done right. We are, though, talking about a few dozen
> cars a year in the UK, using a only a few ounces of lead in most cases.

Right, anyone that fussy wants the *absolute minimum* of ANY filler to be
used in the repairs!

Trevor

[John Williamson]

On 08/05/2014 08:32, Trevor wrote:
> "John Williamson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Some of the classic car people still use lead loading, and it *is* real
>> lead. Keeps it authentic and gives a better, more reliable fill than the
>> epoxy stuff if it's done right. We are, though, talking about a few dozen
>> cars a year in the UK, using a only a few ounces of lead in most cases.
>
> Right, anyone that fussy wants the *absolute minimum* of ANY filler to be
> used in the repairs!
>
Yup, it's mainly used to fill the seams between panels, which are
normally hand beaten from flat steel sheet.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.