What do you think of this DIY Reflexion filter design?

[[email protected]]

What do you think of this DIY Reflexion filter design?

http://youtu.be/Q_JK3VlMCLs

The short version is he makes 4 panels which have these layers in this order:

-Stiff felt
-dowel rod for air gap
-aluminum foil - supposed to absorb/block low freq
-cotton balls
-wool khaki felt
-Soft felt wrapped and glued around previous layers - this is the layer that faces the mic

All mounted with velcro to a sheet of Lincane perforated aluminum.

How would you expect this to perform compared to an SE Electronics Reflexion filter which it's supposed to emulate? I see that the actual SE Electronics unit has the backing layers as continuous pieces across the whole width, rather than all incorporated into individual panels. Also the SEE unit has an additional layer of perforated plastic.

Do you have a DIY design you like and know works? It's my understanding an overly simple one like just a layer of black A/C insulater foam over bent paint screens which are common online isn't adequate because it doesn't do anything about low frequencies.

What about A/C insulator foam over a layer of rigid fiberglass?

Thanks.

[Ethan Winer[_5_]]

That's a pretty lame design. A vocal "filter" should not have any reflective surfaces such as wood or metal. What you want is material that absorbs fully, such as rigid fiberglass or good quality acoustic foam (not the cheap stuff). It also needs to be larger than the sE model or what's shown in this video. If you want to mimic a commercial product, you'll do much better to emulate the RealTraps Portable Vocal Booth:

http://www.realtraps.com/p_pvb.htm

This is a pair of 2x2 foot panels, which is a much more effective size.

--Ethan

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>
>How would you expect this to perform compared to an SE Electronics Reflexio=
>n filter which it's supposed to emulate? I see that the actual SE Electroni=
>cs unit has the backing layers as continuous pieces across the whole width,=
> rather than all incorporated into individual panels. Also the SEE unit has=
> an additional layer of perforated plastic.

Considering that the Reflexion filter really doesn't work worth a damn, I
wouldn't imagine copies to work very well either.

Something like that is only effective at very high frequencies where the
pad itself is larger than a quarter-wave. Below that, it doesn't do much,
and it's down at the lower frequencies where the microphone isn't directional
that the real problems lie.

Fix the room.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:29:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>What do you think of this DIY Reflexion filter design?
>
>http://youtu.be/Q_JK3VlMCLs
>
>The short version is he makes 4 panels which have these layers in this order:
>
>-Stiff felt
>-dowel rod for air gap
>-aluminum foil - supposed to absorb/block low freq
>-cotton balls
>-wool khaki felt
>-Soft felt wrapped and glued around previous layers - this is the layer that faces the mic
>
>All mounted with velcro to a sheet of Lincane perforated aluminum.
>
>How would you expect this to perform compared to an SE Electronics Reflexion filter which it's supposed to emulate? I see that the actual SE Electronics unit has the backing layers as continuous pieces across the whole width, rather than all incorporated into individual panels. Also the SEE unit has an additional layer of perforated plastic.
>
>Do you have a DIY design you like and know works? It's my understanding an overly simple one like just a layer of black A/C insulater foam over bent paint screens which are common online isn't adequate because it doesn't do anything about low frequencies.
>
>What about A/C insulator foam over a layer of rigid fiberglass?
>
>Thanks.

Ethan will give you vastly better info than I can, but that curve is
the very last thing you want. There will be some residual,
frequency-dependent reflections, and that curve will be a perfect
focussing mirror. Very bad news. If you have to make your own, a pair
of flat panels angled behind the mic are the way to do it.

d

[geoff]

On 28/03/2014 4:29 a.m., wrote:
> What do you think of this DIY Reflexion filter design?
>
> http://youtu.be/Q_JK3VlMCLs
>
> The short version is he makes 4 panels which have these layers in this order:
>
> -Stiff felt
> -dowel rod for air gap
> -aluminum foil - supposed to absorb/block low freq
> -cotton balls
> -wool khaki felt
> -Soft felt wrapped and glued around previous layers - this is the layer that faces the mic
>
> All mounted with velcro to a sheet of Lincane perforated aluminum.
>
> How would you expect this to perform compared to an SE Electronics Reflexion filter which it's supposed to emulate? I see that the actual SE Electronics unit has the backing layers as continuous pieces across the whole width, rather than all incorporated into individual panels. Also the SEE unit has an additional layer of perforated plastic.
>
> Do you have a DIY design you like and know works? It's my understanding an overly simple one like just a layer of black A/C insulater foam over bent paint screens which are common online isn't adequate because it doesn't do anything about low frequencies.
>
> What about A/C insulator foam over a layer of rigid fiberglass?
>
> Thanks.
>

Reflexxion type 'filters' don't give me a stiffy cos I tend to use
ardiod mics for vocals. Aas do most I believe. So I don't see the
point. Or hear it.


geoff

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:39:57 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> Considering that the Reflexion filter really doesn't work worth a damn, I
> wouldn't imagine copies to work very well either.


Interesting. You feel this guy James Ishmaev-Young from SE Electronics is full of it? I.e. "Why ours works and others don't".

http://youtu.be/hOcg_EYCnIo

[hank alrich]

> wrote:

> On Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:39:57 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >
> > Considering that the Reflexion filter really doesn't work worth a damn, I
> > wouldn't imagine copies to work very well either.
>
>
> Interesting. You feel this guy James Ishmaev-Young from SE Electronics is
> full of it? I.e. "Why ours works and others don't".
>
> http://youtu.be/hOcg_EYCnIo

Meanwhile, over at PSW Terry Manning and others will suggest all such
filters alter the sound and the solution is to learn how to sing. Any
one of those cats has a production history that leaves JIY in the
playground. Did you expect a man selling his product to say why it
doesn't work?

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[geoff]

On 28/03/2014 9:18 a.m., wrote:
> On Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:39:57 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> Considering that the Reflexion filter really doesn't work worth a damn, I
>> wouldn't imagine copies to work very well either.
>
>
> Interesting. You feel this guy James Ishmaev-Young from SE Electronics is full of it? I.e. "Why ours works and others don't".
>
> http://youtu.be/hOcg_EYCnIo
>


I would guess he's trying to sell products.

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>On Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:39:57 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> Considering that the Reflexion filter really doesn't work worth a damn, I
>> wouldn't imagine copies to work very well either.
>
>Interesting. You feel this guy James Ishmaev-Young from SE Electronics is full of it? I.e. "Why ours works and others don't".

He's in the marketing department. It's his JOB to be full of it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ethan Winer[_5_]]

On Friday, March 28, 2014 9:15:29 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> He's in the marketing department. It's his JOB to be full of it.

Yes, and I can confirm that he is indeed full of it. Not to turn this into a marketing pitch, but this video lets you hear the difference between the sE RF and the RealTraps PVB:

http://www.realtraps.com/video_pvb-doug.htm

--Ethan

[Scott Dorsey]

Ethan Winer > wrote:
>On Friday, March 28, 2014 9:15:29 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> He's in the marketing department. It's his JOB to be full of it.
>
>Yes, and I can confirm that he is indeed full of it. Not to turn this into a marketing pitch, but this video lets you hear the difference between the sE RF and the RealTraps PVB:
>
>http://www.realtraps.com/video_pvb-doug.htm

The PVB is about as small as it can be and still do some good.... but
listening to that video, it's really only working to maybe an octave lower
than the Reflexion filter (which would make sense if it's twice as big), and
I'd say that still isn't low enough to be a major help.

Trade that KLM mike in for a KMS105 with a much tighter pattern and you'll
find the differences reduced even more....

Just fix the room, okay?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 28, 2014 1:49:32 PM UTC-4, Ethan Winer wrote:

> Yes, and I can confirm that he is indeed full of it. Not to turn this into a marketing pitch, but this video lets you hear the difference between the sE RF and the RealTraps PVB:
>
>
>
> http://www.realtraps.com/video_pvb-doug.htm


Interesting. I notice he's positioned very high in relation to the SE Reflexion filter, wondering if his mouth was 5" or so lower so that he was speaking more right into the center of it as he is with the RealTraps unit if it would make a difference.

The overall timbre of his voice is very different with the RT vs the SE unit.

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>On Friday, March 28, 2014 1:49:32 PM UTC-4, Ethan Winer wrote:
>
>> http://www.realtraps.com/video_pvb-doug.htm
>
>Interesting. I notice he's positioned very high in relation to the SE Reflexion filter, wondering if his mouth was 5" or so lower so that he was speaking more right into the center of it as he is with the RealTraps unit if it would make a difference.

Probably not much... the voice isn't really all that directional... listen to
someone speaking outside where there are no room reflections and you can hear
them pretty well even behind them.

>The overall timbre of his voice is very different with the RT vs the SE unit.

And that's the important thing: what you're hearing are the room irregularities
being smoothed down another octave.... but they still need to be dealt with
at least two more octaves down for a good vocal sound.

But: notice this was done with a microphone that has a pretty sloppy pattern.
Try the same experiment with a KMS105 which has a more controlled pattern and
you won't notice quite as much difference. In fact, I would say that if you
are stuck having to work in a crappy room that you're better off spending your
money on a microphone with a tighter pattern than anything else at first.
Or maybe even a Coles Lip Mike.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ethan Winer[_5_]]

On Friday, March 28, 2014 2:19:26 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The PVB is about as small as it can be and still do some good.

Yes, though it's much larger than the sE thingie. It's also absorbent, which is why it colors the sound less than sE's reflective surface. Again, not to spam the group, we have a larger version called the Quiet Zone:

http://www.realtraps.com/quietzone_mariel.jpg

We had four Quiet Zone booths at last year's AES show in New York City, placed around the show floor as cell phone privacy stations. They were a big hit!

http://www.realtraps.com/quietzone_cpps.jpg

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:21:47 PM UTC-4, Ethan Winer wrote:

> http://www.realtraps.com/quietzone_cpps.jpg


Okay, what you need is an enclosed model that the singer just wears with a harness.

;)