Best Way to get an Overall Recording of a Jazz band?

[Paul[_13_]]

It will be drums, bass, keys, guitar, vocals, and sax.

I suggested line-outs from the bassist and the keys, but
they just want a good overall band recording. I was thinking
an X-Y stereo pair over the drums, and a couple of other
strategically placed mics, specifically one for the sax.

Any advice from you pros out there who know better than me?

[John Williamson]

On 03/03/2014 22:10, Paul wrote:
> It will be drums, bass, keys, guitar, vocals, and sax.
>
> I suggested line-outs from the bassist and the keys, but
> they just want a good overall band recording. I was thinking
> an X-Y stereo pair over the drums, and a couple of other
> strategically placed mics, specifically one for the sax.
>
> Any advice from you pros out there who know better than me?

Depends on the room and how much control you want at mix time.

You may just get away with a mid-side or X-Y setup, if the band are well
balanced and in a nice room.

If possible, use a mic and DI on the bass, and choose one or the other,
as some basses sound better mic'd and others need the clarity of DI.
Same for the keys. Throw away the track you don't like or which doesn't
fit the sound you want.

I'd also put a separate mic on the bass drum just in case, even if I
didn't end up using the track.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Paul > wrote:
>It will be drums, bass, keys, guitar, vocals, and sax.
>
>I suggested line-outs from the bassist and the keys, but
>they just want a good overall band recording. I was thinking
>an X-Y stereo pair over the drums, and a couple of other
>strategically placed mics, specifically one for the sax.
>
>Any advice from you pros out there who know better than me?

Is there a PA? What is the PA doing? What is in the PA? What is the room
like? How many channels do you have available?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul[_13_]]

On 3/3/2014 4:31 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article >, Paul > wrote:
>> It will be drums, bass, keys, guitar, vocals, and sax.
>>
>> I suggested line-outs from the bassist and the keys, but
>> they just want a good overall band recording. I was thinking
>> an X-Y stereo pair over the drums, and a couple of other
>> strategically placed mics, specifically one for the sax.
>>
>> Any advice from you pros out there who know better than me?
>
> Is there a PA? What is the PA doing? What is in the PA? What is the room
> like? How many channels do you have available?
> --scott
>

No real PA. Keys and bassist have small amps, so maybe there won't
be line outs. Vocalist also singing through small amp.

Sort of a high ceiling restaurant/bar. Tile floors? Or perhaps
linoleum.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Paul wrote:

>> Is there a PA? What is the PA doing? What is in the PA? What is
>> the room like? How many channels do you have available?

>> --scott

> No real PA. Keys and bassist have small amps, so maybe there won't
> be line outs.

Good, then that error is avoided.

> Vocalist also singing through small amp.

Mostly bad since it may not sound very good. Does it have an insert where
you can get the mic signal without having to either split the mic or
double-mic?

> Sort of a high ceiling restaurant/bar. Tile floors? Or perhaps
> linoleum.

Will there be audience or is this off-hours?

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Paul > wrote:
>
> No real PA. Keys and bassist have small amps, so maybe there won't
>be line outs. Vocalist also singing through small amp.
>
> Sort of a high ceiling restaurant/bar. Tile floors? Or perhaps
>linoleum.

If this is not a live performance, set up a single mike pair in a place
where it sounds good. Put a spot on the vocalist, maybe one on a soloist.
Move the pair until there is a good balance between instruments (and expect
the vocals to be off in the main pair). Stick a finger in one ear, move
your head around listening. In mixing, use the main pair, bring the spots
up as needed. Fiddle with time shift on the vocal spot to reduce the
comb filtering but expect the vocals are always going to sound a little odd
because of the amp.

If this is a live performance in that kind of environment, the noise floor
is going to be annoyingly high, and you will find yourself having to just
spot the crap out of everything to keep the audience noise down. The room
is apt to be highly reflective which isn't going to help matters. Again
use the main pair in a place that sounds good but you won't be able to mix
starting with the main pair and bringing spots in to fill, you're going to
have to mix from the bottom up starting with vocals or a soloist and put
the mix together mostly from the spots.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul[_13_]]

On 3/3/2014 9:24 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:> Paul wrote:
>
>>> Is there a PA? What is the PA doing? What is in the PA? What is
>>> the room like? How many channels do you have available?
>
>>> --scott
>
>> No real PA. Keys and bassist have small amps, so maybe there won't
>> be line outs.
>
> Good, then that error is avoided.
>

Well, that's debatable depending on the situation, but in this
case they did have lineouts, and I used them for bass and keys.

>> Vocalist also singing through small amp.
>
> Mostly bad since it may not sound very good. Does it have an insert where
> you can get the mic signal without having to either split the mic or
> double-mic?

I was mistaken, he had a PA, but the outputs were only
RCA, and I didn't bring any RCA cables. Next time.


>
>> Sort of a high ceiling restaurant/bar. Tile floors? Or perhaps
>> linoleum.
>
> Will there be audience or is this off-hours?
>

There was an audience. Tile and wood floor.

Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....

Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
first hour.

:/

[PStamler]

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
> Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget

> the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the

> CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....
>
>
>
> Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
> first hour.

On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.

Peace,
Paul (the other one)

[hank alrich]

PStamler > wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
> > Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
>
> > the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
>
> > CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....
> >
> >
> >
> > Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
> > first hour.
>
> On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.

√ 1.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[jason]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:07:03 -0600 "hank alrich" > wrote
in article >
>
> PStamler > wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
> > > Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
> >
> > > the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
> >
> > > CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
> > > first hour.
> >
> > On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.
>
> v 1.

+2.... I did the same thing last week - forgot a patch cord to attach
the backup recorder. The Radio Shack next door to the performance site
saved my bacon - for a price. Ditsy audio cables used to cost $4 or so at
RS; now they're double that :-(

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Paul wrote:

> On 3/3/2014 9:24 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:> Paul wrote:

>>>> Is there a PA? What is the PA doing? What is in the PA? What is
>>>> the room like? How many channels do you have available?

>>>> --scott
>>> No real PA. Keys and bassist have small amps, so maybe there
>>> won't be line outs.

>> Good, then that error is avoided.

> Well, that's debatable depending on the situation, but in this
> case they did have lineouts, and I used them for bass and keys.

This is where the differences begin recording and pa start getting big,
recording comes with an imaging requirement and line-outs come with zero
perspective information and 100 percent direct sound.

>>> Vocalist also singing through small amp.

>> Mostly bad since it may not sound very good. Does it have an insert
>> where you can get the mic signal without having to either split the
>> mic or double-mic?

> I was mistaken, he had a PA, but the outputs were only
> RCA, and I didn't bring any RCA cables. Next time.

Always bring a mic splitter, take care if you have phantom on all mic
inputs, not all thingies with mic inputs like seeing 48 volts on input
coupling capacitors, they oughta be dimensioned for it but may not so be and
may fail.

The olde style double miking has advantages, especially that you can use the
pa microphone to guarantee you sensible mic distance either by taping the
mics wisely together or when mounting on a stereo bar.

>>> Sort of a high ceiling restaurant/bar. Tile floors? Or perhaps
>>> linoleum.

>> Will there be audience or is this off-hours?

> There was an audience. Tile and wood floor.

Audience is mostly good, it does good things to reverberant rooms, but it
can be noisy, otoh you are recording a bar event.

> Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
> the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
> CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....

I'm impressed by your daring do, dedicated recording devices are in my
opinion more likely to be reliable recording devices. It is not just the
recording that is at stake ...

> Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
> first hour.

Always, always, always be there at least two hours before showtime even if
you are just putting up a pair on a stick. It is preferable to be in the
room when the musicians arrive.

> :/

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

hank alrich wrote:

> PStamler > wrote:

>> On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
>>> Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget

>>> the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the

>>> CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....

>>> Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
>>> first hour.

>> On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.

> ? 1.

It is when you have to go back for the harddisk recorder you harvest the
wisdom of being early on site. Glad I had an assistant with me that day that
could cover it up by setting up so that the ensemble was not distracted by
it.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Paul[_13_]]

On 3/5/2014 1:42 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:

>> Well, that's debatable depending on the situation, but in this
>> case they did have lineouts, and I used them for bass and keys.
>
> This is where the differences begin recording and pa start getting big,
> recording comes with an imaging requirement and line-outs come with zero
> perspective information and 100 percent direct sound.
>

I'm finding that there is enough room reverb information on the
other mics, so that when mixed with the 100% direct sound, I can
get a natural sounding mix that has clear and distinct bass and keys.

Some people prefer miking bass cabs...


>> I was mistaken, he had a PA, but the outputs were only
>> RCA, and I didn't bring any RCA cables. Next time.
>
> Always bring a mic splitter, take care if you have phantom on all mic
> inputs, not all thingies with mic inputs like seeing 48 volts on input
> coupling capacitors, they oughta be dimensioned for it but may not so be and
> may fail.
>
> The olde style double miking has advantages, especially that you can use the
> pa microphone to guarantee you sensible mic distance either by taping the
> mics wisely together or when mounting on a stereo bar.
>

That would be good if you wanted to avoid bad PA
pre-amps. What do you think about this cheap Rolls unit:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolls-MS20c-Mic-Splitter-Combiner-Isolator-MS-20C-/121137430640?pt=US_Other_Pro_Audio&hash=item1c345a8070

Good enough?

[Frank Stearns]

Jason > writes:

>On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:07:03 -0600 "hank alrich" > wrote
>in article >
>>
>> PStamler > wrote:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
>> > > Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
>> >
>> > > the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
>> >
>> > > CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
>> > > first hour.
>> >
>> > On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.
>>
>> v 1.

>+2.... I did the same thing last week - forgot a patch cord to attach
>the backup recorder. The Radio Shack next door to the performance site

+3, and...

"Negative" checks are also useful. I have a comprehensive system to make what needs
to go out the door goes out the door, but then as a last-minute check I'll look at
the main storage areas one last time. Is anything left in stores that should NOT be
there, but rather be part of the kit?

This helps when the kit varies from 2 to 24 trecks, with or without some sort of
interfacing with a PA company, cable plant required for the venue, etc.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 12:36:08 -0600, Frank Stearns
> wrote:

>Jason > writes:
>
>>On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:07:03 -0600 "hank alrich" > wrote
>>in article >
>>>
>>> PStamler > wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
>>> > > Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
>>> >
>>> > > the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
>>> >
>>> > > CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
>>> > > first hour.
>>> >
>>> > On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.
>>>
>>> v 1.
>
>>+2.... I did the same thing last week - forgot a patch cord to attach
>>the backup recorder. The Radio Shack next door to the performance site
>
>+3, and...
>
>"Negative" checks are also useful. I have a comprehensive system to make what needs
>to go out the door goes out the door, but then as a last-minute check I'll look at
>the main storage areas one last time. Is anything left in stores that should NOT be
>there, but rather be part of the kit?
>
>This helps when the kit varies from 2 to 24 trecks, with or without some sort of
>interfacing with a PA company, cable plant required for the venue, etc.
>
>Frank
>Mobile Audio

My method, if I know what I am going to be recording (lots of repeat
work) is to do a complete setup in the spare room, then break it down
and put it in the van. Then I add my standard box of "spares of
everything".

d

[Scott Dorsey]

This fall I checked everything off the checklist, got to the event, and
found "blue tub of tape" was a tub of 1/4" tape and not 1" tape...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
>
> This fall I checked everything off the checklist, got to the event, and
> found "blue tub of tape" was a tub of 1/4" tape and not 1" tape...
> --scott

I needed a little greater length of XLR after I put the microphone stand up
on stage, so I reached into my trusty case and pulled out the one that I
just bought. Perfect - except that they are tied into a tight bundle with
these little nylon ties that can only be cut with a good scissors. I had no
razor blade, no scissors, no nail cutter, nothing. I ended up going into the
audience and asking the ladies who has a scissors in your purse. Found one.
Still wasn't easy.

There is also the SDHC cards, which I record on, but which sometimes run
out. So you reach into your bag and pull one out and learn just what it
takes to get one of those out of its packaging. Now I pre-cut them so that
they stay in the package but can be pulled out easily.

Gary Eickmeier

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Paul wrote:

> On 3/5/2014 1:42 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:

>> The olde style double miking has advantages, especially that you can
>> use the pa microphone to guarantee you sensible mic distance either
>> by taping the mics wisely together or when mounting on a stereo bar.

> That would be good if you wanted to avoid bad PA
> pre-amps. What do you think about this cheap Rolls unit:

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolls-MS20c-Mic-Splitter-Combiner-Isolator-MS-20C-/121137430640?pt=US_Other_Pro_Audio&hash=item1c345a8070

> Good enough?

I don't know it. I bought Thomann's cheapest a couple of years ago. It
stopped humming when I discarded the incredible small unscreened transformer
inside it and made it a passive Y-split in a box. I couldn't build a neat
box cheaper and bought another that it hasn't yet been relevant to modify
because I haven't had any use for it. I'd probably go for a pair of
Behringer passive DI's if I really needed them.

Double mikings advantages are avoiding the cheap pa mic and staying totally
unconnected to "all the stuff" on stage. Its disadvantage is that it looks
and is messy.

Mostly my recordings are of unammplified events. A line from the pa output
helped well at a "jazz type" event, a tango orchestra, combining it with a
pair of overhead 4006's resulted in a surprisingly good recording. What made
the recording was the diplomatic effort that resulted in pushing the pa
loudspeakers back to physical alignment with the backline, it also cleaned
the room sound up. Timing is important!

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Frank Stearns wrote:

>>>> On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.

>>> v 1.

>> +2.... I did the same thing last week - forgot a patch cord to
>> attach the backup recorder. The Radio Shack next door to the
>> performance site

> +3, and...

> "Negative" checks are also useful. I have a comprehensive system to
> make what needs to go out the door goes out the door, but then as a
> last-minute check I'll look at the main storage areas one last time.
> Is anything left in stores that should NOT be there, but rather be
> part of the kit?

And how mote the actual event differ from the described event. Once upon a
time for a small Messiah I ended up using *all* extra spare thingies tossed
into one of the suitcases on my way out of the door because some cables the
other guy on the ad hoc team for that recording had had problems soldering
.... bridging inserts for a mic channel are difficult. What I really did
wrong was to accept using half my HD24 rig, ie. the soundcraft mixer and
then two R44's instead of the HD24. We ended up connecting the mics directly
to the R44's and just using the Soundcraft as monitor-mixer - this was what
following the flow allowed me to have cables enough for - but got the job
done and ended up with a very good Messiah.

> This helps when the kit varies from 2 to 24 trecks, with or without
> some sort of interfacing with a PA company, cable plant required for
> the venue, etc.

Yes.

> Frank
> Mobile Audio

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Don Pearce wrote:

> My method, if I know what I am going to be recording (lots of repeat
> work) is to do a complete setup in the spare room, then break it down
> and put it in the van. Then I add my standard box of "spares of
> everything".

There is no good replacement for the full scale pre-setup test and on the
occasion when it shows that a setup that should'ave worked does not and
never will you will be very happy that it was done.

> d

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

Frank Stearns > wrote:

> Jason > writes:
>
> >On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:07:03 -0600 "hank alrich" > wrote
> >in article >
> >>
> >> PStamler > wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
> >> > > Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
> >> >
> >> > > the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
> >> >
> >> > > CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
> >> > > first hour.
> >> >
> >> > On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.
> >>
> >> v 1.
>
> >+2.... I did the same thing last week - forgot a patch cord to attach
> >the backup recorder. The Radio Shack next door to the performance site
>
> +3, and...
>
> "Negative" checks are also useful. I have a comprehensive system to make
> what needs to go out the door goes out the door, but then as a last-minute
> check I'll look at the main storage areas one last time. Is anything left
> in stores that should NOT be there, but rather be part of the kit?
>
> This helps when the kit varies from 2 to 24 trecks, with or without some
> sort of interfacing with a PA company, cable plant required for the venue,
> etc.

I've started taking an empty plastic crate which I have dubbed the "post
mortem box". If anything is found to be faulty it goes straight into
the post mortem box in as complete a condition as possible (power and
signal leads still attached), so that I can see what needs repairing as
soon as I get back home.

Too many times I have chucked a piece of kit back in its box with an
elastic band around it to warn me that it needs repair, only to find it
complete with elastic band the next time I go to use it.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Scott Dorsey]

Peter Larsen > wrote:
>I don't know it. I bought Thomann's cheapest a couple of years ago. It
>stopped humming when I discarded the incredible small unscreened transformer
>inside it and made it a passive Y-split in a box. I couldn't build a neat
>box cheaper and bought another that it hasn't yet been relevant to modify
>because I haven't had any use for it. I'd probably go for a pair of
>Behringer passive DI's if I really needed them.

Splitters with one isolated output and one direct output made with cheap
transformers usually wind up with the isolated output sounding lousy and
the direct output sounding great, usually (if with a high-Z primary) have
minimal effect on microphone loading, and usually result in fights between
the record crew and the PA crew about who gets what output.

>Double mikings advantages are avoiding the cheap pa mic and staying totally
>unconnected to "all the stuff" on stage. Its disadvantage is that it looks
>and is messy.

Sometimes the PA folks are very happy to use your better microphone.
Sometimes they are not. I'm happy to double mike in that case (and sometimes
I am going to want to put spots up that the PA folks don't have).

The problem with double miking is that the two mike heads are never quite
in the same place, and each mike is affecting the pattern of the other
slightly.

This can actually be an advantage for p-popping vocalists... stick the
recording microphone six inches back from the PA mike.

>Mostly my recordings are of unammplified events. A line from the pa output
>helped well at a "jazz type" event, a tango orchestra, combining it with a
>pair of overhead 4006's resulted in a surprisingly good recording. What made
>the recording was the diplomatic effort that resulted in pushing the pa
>loudspeakers back to physical alignment with the backline, it also cleaned
>the room sound up. Timing is important!

You can fix that to a great extent in post by just delaying the PA feed to
match the stage mikes. In the analogue world this was a real pain, but
in the digital world it's fairly easy if you have enough tracks to record
everything separately.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Peter Larsen > wrote:

> The problem with double miking is that the two mike heads are never
> quite
> in the same place, and each mike is affecting the pattern of the other
> slightly.

> This can actually be an advantage for p-popping vocalists... stick the
> recording microphone six inches back from the PA mike.

Amen!

>> Mostly my recordings are of unammplified events. A line from the pa
>> output helped well at a "jazz type" event, a tango orchestra,
>> combining it with a pair of overhead 4006's resulted in a
>> surprisingly good recording. What made the recording was the
>> diplomatic effort that resulted in pushing the pa loudspeakers back
>> to physical alignment with the backline, it also cleaned the room
>> sound up. Timing is important!

> You can fix that to a great extent in post by just delaying the PA
> feed to match the stage mikes. In the analogue world this was a real
> pain, but
> in the digital world it's fairly easy if you have enough tracks to
> record everything separately.

Having an overhead pair of 4006's - fixed mounted for the duration of a
festival - necessitated getting the pa later into them than the direct
sound. It also made the PA efficient as side-fill so that the (strange, but
I was happy to have one less problem) lack of stage monitors was only a
virtue and not a problem.

In the mix of overhead pair + pa-mono I delayed the pa sound an additional
22 milliseconds because that sounded right and got praise from musicians as
well as pa-supplier afterwards. The pair being optimally placed for the
steinway didn't hurt, a good piano sound is a good alibi for any recording.
A very well playing ensemble also helps, those are always strangely easier
to record.

> --scott

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[S. King]

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:08:09 -0500, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> This fall I checked everything off the checklist, got to the event, and
>> found "blue tub of tape" was a tub of 1/4" tape and not 1" tape...
>> --scott
>
> I needed a little greater length of XLR after I put the microphone stand
> up on stage, so I reached into my trusty case and pulled out the one
> that I just bought. Perfect - except that they are tied into a tight
> bundle with these little nylon ties that can only be cut with a good
> scissors. I had no razor blade, no scissors, no nail cutter, nothing. I
> ended up going into the audience and asking the ladies who has a
> scissors in your purse. Found one. Still wasn't easy.
>
> There is also the SDHC cards, which I record on, but which sometimes run
> out. So you reach into your bag and pull one out and learn just what it
> takes to get one of those out of its packaging. Now I pre-cut them so
> that they stay in the package but can be pulled out easily.
>
> Gary Eickmeier

Add Swiss Army Knife (with scissors) to your check list.

Steve

[hank alrich]

S. King > wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:08:09 -0500, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
> > "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> This fall I checked everything off the checklist, got to the event, and
> >> found "blue tub of tape" was a tub of 1/4" tape and not 1" tape...
> >> --scott
> >
> > I needed a little greater length of XLR after I put the microphone stand
> > up on stage, so I reached into my trusty case and pulled out the one
> > that I just bought. Perfect - except that they are tied into a tight
> > bundle with these little nylon ties that can only be cut with a good
> > scissors. I had no razor blade, no scissors, no nail cutter, nothing. I
> > ended up going into the audience and asking the ladies who has a
> > scissors in your purse. Found one. Still wasn't easy.
> >
> > There is also the SDHC cards, which I record on, but which sometimes run
> > out. So you reach into your bag and pull one out and learn just what it
> > takes to get one of those out of its packaging. Now I pre-cut them so
> > that they stay in the package but can be pulled out easily.
> >
> > Gary Eickmeier
>
> Add Swiss Army Knife (with scissors) to your check list.
>
> Steve

√ 4.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Paul[_13_]]

On 3/6/2014 7:02 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Peter Larsen > wrote:
>> I don't know it. I bought Thomann's cheapest a couple of years ago. It
>> stopped humming when I discarded the incredible small unscreened transformer
>> inside it and made it a passive Y-split in a box. I couldn't build a neat
>> box cheaper and bought another that it hasn't yet been relevant to modify
>> because I haven't had any use for it. I'd probably go for a pair of
>> Behringer passive DI's if I really needed them.
>
> Splitters with one isolated output and one direct output made with cheap
> transformers usually wind up with the isolated output sounding lousy and
> the direct output sounding great, usually (if with a high-Z primary) have
> minimal effect on microphone loading, and usually result in fights between
> the record crew and the PA crew about who gets what output.
>

Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
to both outputs?


>> Double mikings advantages are avoiding the cheap pa mic and staying totally
>> unconnected to "all the stuff" on stage. Its disadvantage is that it looks
>> and is messy.
>
> Sometimes the PA folks are very happy to use your better microphone.
> Sometimes they are not. I'm happy to double mike in that case (and sometimes
> I am going to want to put spots up that the PA folks don't have).
>
> The problem with double miking is that the two mike heads are never quite
> in the same place, and each mike is affecting the pattern of the other
> slightly.
>
> This can actually be an advantage for p-popping vocalists... stick the
> recording microphone six inches back from the PA mike.
>

I would imagine double miking also avoids the excess feedback you
might get with a sensitive vocal condenser mic through the PA.

BTW, although I've only listened through my headphones, so far it
seems my AT4047 did an excellent job of capturing the sax player.

Also, I had an X-Y pair of Lineaudio CM3s over the drums:

http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html

They don't sound like they are over-hyped on the high-end at all.
Very smooth cymbal capture, and no snare dynamic was needed. Beta 52A
on the bass drum.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
> Frank Stearns > wrote:
>
>> Jason > writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:07:03 -0600 "hank alrich" > wrote
>>> in article >
>>>>
>>>> PStamler > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:43:31 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
>>>>>> Uhhh....if you bring your headphones, don't forget
>>>>>
>>>>>> the 1/8th to 1/4" adaptor, and please bring the
>>>>>
>>>>>> CORRECT AC adaptor for the laptop you will be using....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Damn embarrassing to have to drive back home and miss the
>>>>>> first hour.
>>>>>
>>>>> On remote gigs, checklists are your friends.
>>>>
>>>> v 1.
>>
>>> +2.... I did the same thing last week - forgot a patch cord to attach
>>> the backup recorder. The Radio Shack next door to the performance site
>>
>> +3, and...
>>
>> "Negative" checks are also useful. I have a comprehensive system to make
>> what needs to go out the door goes out the door, but then as a last-minute
>> check I'll look at the main storage areas one last time. Is anything left
>> in stores that should NOT be there, but rather be part of the kit?
>>
>> This helps when the kit varies from 2 to 24 trecks, with or without some
>> sort of interfacing with a PA company, cable plant required for the venue,
>> etc.
>
> I've started taking an empty plastic crate which I have dubbed the "post
> mortem box". If anything is found to be faulty it goes straight into
> the post mortem box in as complete a condition as possible (power and
> signal leads still attached), so that I can see what needs repairing as
> soon as I get back home.
>
> Too many times I have chucked a piece of kit back in its box with an
> elastic band around it to warn me that it needs repair, only to find it
> complete with elastic band the next time I go to use it.
>
>

I have had reasonable success managing cables by tying a knot a certain
way in them. I suppose that could extend to cables attached to a box.

If I did this for a living, I would not be above keeping red toe-tags
for broken things. "But it's hard when you're under pressure" - that's
when you have to *slow down*, and measure thrice instead of twice...

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/6/2014 1:48 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
> I have had reasonable success managing cables by tying a knot a certain
> way in them. I suppose that could extend to cables attached to a box.

I had a friend who worked with a "major" band at one time. Whenever he
ran across a bad cable, he'd immediately take his knife out of his
pocket and cut the connector off one end. That made certain that nobody
used it until it was fixed or given a proper burial.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/6/2014 1:11 PM, Paul wrote:

> Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
> to both outputs?

No. Splitter, by nature, are not cheap.



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Paul[_13_]]

On 3/6/2014 6:27 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 3/6/2014 1:11 PM, Paul wrote:
>
> > Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
> > to both outputs?
>
> No. Splitter, by nature, are not cheap.
>

Then the cheapEST, but still good, splitter?

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 3/6/2014 1:11 PM, Paul wrote:
>
> > Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
> > to both outputs?
>
> No. Splitter, by nature, are not cheap.
>
>
>

Is the Whirlwind offering useless? It does not appear
to be transformer isolated.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/352811-REG/Whirlwind_SB12P_SB12P_12_Input.html

--
Les Cargill

[[email protected]]

Unless the recording gear and pa gear are connected to the same ground, i'm gonna bet that you NEED transformer coupled galvanic isolation to avoid ground loop problems.

Mark

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Paul wrote:

> Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
> to both outputs?

The Y, only usable if galvanic separation of circuits is not required. If
galvanic separation is - I have tried electrocution by danish standard mains
power from arm to arm, my threshold for galvanic separation is low - then
something like this comes to mind:

http://www.thomann.de/dk/palmer_prmms_microsplitter.htm

There are no cheap solutions using transformers that are worth going for and
if you need it then it is realistic to assume needing to split more than one
mic. I have a Palmer computer-isolation transformer-box and it is not
obviously audible so I expect this product to be of similar quality. The
rack design is a bit silly tho, I had preferred a box to put next to the
cable drum, junction box, pa ad-converter, whatever on stage, but for a
system that wants to be able to delivcer splits the rack box can be
obviously relevant.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

wrote:
> Unless the recording gear and pa gear are connected to the same
> ground, i'm gonna bet that you NEED transformer coupled galvanic
> isolation to avoid ground loop problems.
>
> Mark
>

That is what I am thinking.

--
Les Cargill

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Paul > wrote:
>On 3/6/2014 7:02 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Peter Larsen > wrote:
>> Splitters with one isolated output and one direct output made with cheap
>> transformers usually wind up with the isolated output sounding lousy and
>> the direct output sounding great, usually (if with a high-Z primary) have
>> minimal effect on microphone loading, and usually result in fights between
>> the record crew and the PA crew about who gets what output.
>
> Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
>to both outputs?

Not really, and you're always going to have some sacrifice. My suggestion
for a first splitter would be to get one of the models that uses the Jensen
bridging transformers. The isolated output is still not as clean as the
direct out, but it's fine for PA stuff. However, the guy with the direct out
is supplying the phantom power if needed.

The dual-secondary splitters provide two outputs with the same degradation
to them, and that reduces the arguments a lot. However, the splitter now
needs to be powered because the splitter is providing the phantom power.

If you arrange things well, though, you won't need a lot of channels of
splitter. I think you're better off having a couple really good splitters
than a rack full of lousy ones.

All the ones I have ever used were custom jobs. I know Whirlwind and Masque
Sound and Rapco will make them for you if you aren't up to doing it yourself.

>> This can actually be an advantage for p-popping vocalists... stick the
>> recording microphone six inches back from the PA mike.
>>
>
> I would imagine double miking also avoids the excess feedback you
>might get with a sensitive vocal condenser mic through the PA.

Feedback is caused by leakage from the mains and monitors, through the room,
into the stage mikes.

For live recording, you want the stage mike feeds to be as clean as possible,
with as little leakage as possible. And you want that leakage to be as flat
and neutral as possible. So in fact what you want for recording spots and
for PA in most cases is very much the same.

The tighter the pattern the better for both applications, and the flatter
off-axis the better.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Les Cargill > wrote:
wrote:
>> Unless the recording gear and pa gear are connected to the same
>> ground, i'm gonna bet that you NEED transformer coupled galvanic
>> isolation to avoid ground loop problems.
>
>That is what I am thinking.

65 volts AC measured between the PA system ground and the truck ground at
the 9:30 club.

Box of UTC G-series transformers, wired 600 ohm primary to two 600 ohm
secondaries.

No audible hum.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul[_13_]]

On 3/7/2014 6:54 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

>> Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
>> to both outputs?
>
> Not really, and you're always going to have some sacrifice. My suggestion
> for a first splitter would be to get one of the models that uses the Jensen
> bridging transformers. The isolated output is still not as clean as the
> direct out, but it's fine for PA stuff. However, the guy with the direct out
> is supplying the phantom power if needed.
>

Looks like they have dual Faraday cages for high isolation, and
good CMRR:

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/mbc.pdf

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an005.pdf

Looks not to hard to build, but getting older makes you lazy:


http://catalog.adwarvideo.com/avcat/ctl3502/index.cfm?manufacturer=wireworks&product=tsbd



> The dual-secondary splitters provide two outputs with the same degradation
> to them, and that reduces the arguments a lot. However, the splitter now
> needs to be powered because the splitter is providing the phantom power.
>
> If you arrange things well, though, you won't need a lot of channels of
> splitter. I think you're better off having a couple really good splitters
> than a rack full of lousy ones.
>
> All the ones I have ever used were custom jobs. I know Whirlwind and Masque
> Sound and Rapco will make them for you if you aren't up to doing it yourself.
>
>>> This can actually be an advantage for p-popping vocalists... stick the
>>> recording microphone six inches back from the PA mike.
>>>
>>
>> I would imagine double miking also avoids the excess feedback you
>> might get with a sensitive vocal condenser mic through the PA.
>
> Feedback is caused by leakage from the mains and monitors, through the room,
> into the stage mikes.
>
> For live recording, you want the stage mike feeds to be as clean as possible,
> with as little leakage as possible. And you want that leakage to be as flat
> and neutral as possible. So in fact what you want for recording spots and
> for PA in most cases is very much the same.
>
> The tighter the pattern the better for both applications, and the flatter
> off-axis the better.
> --scott
>

Do you sometimes use a sensitive condenser mic (to record) with
a dynamic mic (to PA), when double miking, or does that end up making
the mics too far apart? When you say "double miking", I'm thinking of
the two mics you see taped together on all those live concert films.
But they don't necessarily have to be that close to each other, right?

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> On 3/6/2014 1:11 PM, Paul wrote:
>
> > Can you recommend a cheap mic splitter that still has good signals
> > to both outputs?
>
> No. Splitter, by nature, are not cheap.

IME this is one of those cases of "Cheap or good? Pick one…"

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> On 3/6/2014 1:48 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
> > I have had reasonable success managing cables by tying a knot a certain
> > way in them. I suppose that could extend to cables attached to a box.
>
> I had a friend who worked with a "major" band at one time. Whenever he
> ran across a bad cable, he'd immediately take his knife out of his
> pocket and cut the connector off one end. That made certain that nobody
> used it until it was fixed or given a proper burial.

Yep, I was going to suggest that. It works perfectly until you learn
that the problem wasn't with the cable you just cut the end off of! That
said, I've done it, very rarely with regret.


--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Paul > wrote:
>On 3/7/2014 6:54 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> Feedback is caused by leakage from the mains and monitors, through the room,
>> into the stage mikes.
>>
>> For live recording, you want the stage mike feeds to be as clean as possible,
>> with as little leakage as possible. And you want that leakage to be as flat
>> and neutral as possible. So in fact what you want for recording spots and
>> for PA in most cases is very much the same.
>>
>> The tighter the pattern the better for both applications, and the flatter
>> off-axis the better.
>
> Do you sometimes use a sensitive condenser mic (to record) with
>a dynamic mic (to PA), when double miking, or does that end up making
>the mics too far apart? When you say "double miking", I'm thinking of
>the two mics you see taped together on all those live concert films.

More often I'll tend to put up a good dynamic mike like a Sennheiser 441
if I want to pull the microphone back. Sometimes I'll use an RE-20 both
for the tight pattern and because it has a uniform sound for people who
can't stay consistently on-mike.

Forget about sensitivity, it is meaningless. You care about pattern and
leakage.

>But they don't necessarily have to be that close to each other, right?

Depends on the instrument. In the case of a cello, where I'd want to
mike it is very different than where the PA guy wants to mike it. He
is doing everything to avoid stage leakage and I can pull back a little.
In the case of vocals, often they need to be that close because they
are comparatively quiet and the stage sound is very high.

Getting clean vocals is absolutely paramount for music that is built
around vocals.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> Forget about sensitivity, it is meaningless. You care about pattern and
> leakage.

This is an extremely important point, and one not realized by a huge
percentage of live sound operators.

In the big equation, it is not the sensitivty of the mic alone that
affects outcome. It is the human sensitivty and intelligence applied _to
gain staging_ that matters.

Hot mic? Lower preamp gain.

It is a very simple concept, little understood.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic