Accordion internal microphone?

[Gareth Magennis]

Hi,

someone has asked me to provide a small microphone that he will fit inside
of an accordion.

He has, for decades, been using an old WEM Custom Accordion Mic, which looks
like it uses an electret condensor capsule. It has a 9v powered plastic box
with jack in and out. This mic appears to be dead.

Anyway, wouldn't electret condensors distort so close to what must be a
pretty loud sound source? (inside the accordion)



I'm a bit loathe to do this as I haven't really got a clue what to look for,
but thought I might gain some useful knowledge / do's and don'ts by posting
here.


Cheers,


Gareth.

[Scott Dorsey]

Gareth Magennis > wrote:
>
>someone has asked me to provide a small microphone that he will fit inside
>of an accordion.
>
>He has, for decades, been using an old WEM Custom Accordion Mic, which looks
>like it uses an electret condensor capsule. It has a 9v powered plastic box
>with jack in and out. This mic appears to be dead.
>
>Anyway, wouldn't electret condensors distort so close to what must be a
>pretty loud sound source? (inside the accordion)

Probably, but that's secondary to the whole issue of the sound inside the
accordion being nothing like the sound outside.

Just fix the one he's got, which is probably a generic Panasonic omni capsule
anyway. (Yes, it IS possible to set an electret up to give it a lot headroom
but the original one probably didn't). If it's not a broken wire, it's
probably the capsule since there probably isn't much else there.

>I'm a bit loathe to do this as I haven't really got a clue what to look for,
>but thought I might gain some useful knowledge / do's and don'ts by posting
>here.

Stick an SM-11 in there! It's mellow-sounding. Not realistic sounding, mind
you, but if he liked the electret....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

Why should the mic have to be inside the accordion? Why not just attach a
small condenser capsule somewhere, then apply strain relief to the cable.
(You'd have to do the latter, anyway.)

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> Why should the mic have to be inside the accordion? Why not just
> attach a small condenser capsule somewhere, then apply strain relief
> to the cable. (You'd have to do the latter, anyway.)

Sound comes out all over the contraption.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:38:06 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>someone has asked me to provide a small microphone that he will fit inside
>of an accordion.
>
>He has, for decades, been using an old WEM Custom Accordion Mic, which looks
>like it uses an electret condensor capsule. It has a 9v powered plastic box
>with jack in and out. This mic appears to be dead.
>
>Anyway, wouldn't electret condensors distort so close to what must be a
>pretty loud sound source? (inside the accordion)
>
>
>
>I'm a bit loathe to do this as I haven't really got a clue what to look for,
>but thought I might gain some useful knowledge / do's and don'ts by posting
>here.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Gareth.
>

An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!

Sorry, but I can't stand the things.

d

[John Williamson]

On 31/01/2014 18:59, Don Pearce wrote:
> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
>
> Sorry, but I can't stand the things.
>
Having had the "pleasure" of producing a CD for an accordion band, I
agree with you.

Mind you, they sold 500 copies in a year to people who had *already*
heard them play...


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Nate Najar]

On Friday, January 31, 2014 10:28:20 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:


>
>
>
> Probably, but that's secondary to the whole issue of the sound inside the
>
> accordion being nothing like the sound outside.
>
>

could the sound of the inside be an improvement?

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

John Williamson wrote:

> On 31/01/2014 18:59, Don Pearce wrote:
>> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!

>> Sorry, but I can't stand the things.

> Having had the "pleasure" of producing a CD for an accordion band, I
> agree with you.

> Mind you, they sold 500 copies in a year to people who had *already*
> heard them play...

I have recorded two very good duos, one being viola and accordion and the
other two accordions. Both are very well sounding. As with harp: do not get
too close, the accordion similarly pretends to be closer to the mic pair
than they are.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Don Pearce wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:38:06 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> > wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> someone has asked me to provide a small microphone that he will fit inside
>> of an accordion.
>>
>> He has, for decades, been using an old WEM Custom Accordion Mic, which looks
>> like it uses an electret condensor capsule. It has a 9v powered plastic box
>> with jack in and out. This mic appears to be dead.
>>
>> Anyway, wouldn't electret condensors distort so close to what must be a
>> pretty loud sound source? (inside the accordion)
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm a bit loathe to do this as I haven't really got a clue what to look for,
>> but thought I might gain some useful knowledge / do's and don'ts by posting
>> here.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> Gareth.
>>
>
> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
>
> Sorry, but I can't stand the things.
>
> d
>


Yes, but you have to have *something* to plug into the
"accordion" input on your Ampeg amp!

And you sound like somebody who needs to become familiar
with Flaco Jiminez. It's not *all* "Lady of Spain".

--
Les Cargill ( who has used the accordion patches on
is ROMpler only sparingly )

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Peter Larsen wrote:
> John Williamson wrote:
>
>> On 31/01/2014 18:59, Don Pearce wrote:
>>> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
>
>>> Sorry, but I can't stand the things.
>
>> Having had the "pleasure" of producing a CD for an accordion band, I
>> agree with you.
>
>> Mind you, they sold 500 copies in a year to people who had *already*
>> heard them play...
>
> I have recorded two very good duos, one being viola and accordion and the
> other two accordions. Both are very well sounding. As with harp:

Does that mean harmonica or large thing with strings and pedals? I would
think a good room extremely important for the latter kind.

Saying "harp" in the same context with "accordion" makes me think
"harmonica", but "harp" is a very American-slang thing; not sure if
it made it across the Atlantic.


> do not get
> too close, the accordion similarly pretends to be closer to the mic pair
> than they are.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
>
>
--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/31/2014 4:54 PM, Nate Najar wrote:

> could the sound of the inside be an improvement?

It's like an electric guitar. It doesn't sound like a guitar but we know
the sound. An accordion with a mic inside doesn't sound like an
accordion, but it's a sound that accordion players and fans know.

Marc Savoy, master builder of Cajun accordions, mounted an SM-57 capsule
on a bracket and attached it to the treble side of the accordion. Most
players plugged that into a guitar amplifier, and the sound of the Cajun
accordion was new again. I'm not sure if that's still the traditional
setup, but that's what you'd see on the accordions in French Louisiana
25 years ago.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Les Cargill wrote:

> Peter Larsen wrote:

>> I have recorded two very good duos, one being viola and accordion
>> and the other two accordions. Both are very well sounding. As with
>> harp:

> Does that mean harmonica or large thing with strings and pedals? I
> would think a good room extremely important for the latter kind.

Just as when recording a harp, yes the Harpo instrument, you should not get
too close to accordion because of the way it projects it sound. I had one in
a single pair recording - in line with the ensemble - and it stood out as if
2 meters in front of it. Next time I encountered one I miked it at 5 feet so
as to have something to add reverb to, classical "few microphones"
oratorium, ie. pair for choir behind orchestra, similar pair on orchestra,
one for vox and one for harp.

> Saying "harp" in the same context with "accordion" makes me think
> "harmonica", but "harp" is a very American-slang thing; not sure if
> it made it across the Atlantic.

Must be a transmutation via jew harp, ie. cowboys calling it a harp if it is
held in front of the mouth and kinda blown into.

Viola and accordion strongly recommended for ensemble playing, their sounds
merge very well and it becomes one instrument with a wider sonic range and
some of the time you can't really make out which instrument plays which
parts. The repertoire is however smallish so arrangers skills are likely to
be useful.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Peter Larsen wrote:

> Les Cargill wrote:

>> Peter Larsen wrote:

>>> I have recorded two very good duos, one being viola and accordion
>>> and the other two accordions. Both are very well sounding. As with
>>> harp:

>> Does that mean harmonica or large thing with strings and pedals? I
>> would think a good room extremely important for the latter kind.

> Just as when recording a harp, yes the Harpo instrument, you should
> not get too close to accordion because of the way it projects it
> sound. I had one in a single pair recording - in line with the
> ensemble - and it stood out as if 2 meters in front of it. Next time
> I encountered one I miked it at 5 feet so as to have something to add
> reverb to, classical "few microphones" oratorium, ie. pair for choir
> behind orchestra, similar pair on orchestra, one for vox and one for
> harp.

"one" equals harp.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:01:39 -0600, Les Cargill
> wrote:

>Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:38:06 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> someone has asked me to provide a small microphone that he will fit inside
>>> of an accordion.
>>>
>>> He has, for decades, been using an old WEM Custom Accordion Mic, which looks
>>> like it uses an electret condensor capsule. It has a 9v powered plastic box
>>> with jack in and out. This mic appears to be dead.
>>>
>>> Anyway, wouldn't electret condensors distort so close to what must be a
>>> pretty loud sound source? (inside the accordion)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm a bit loathe to do this as I haven't really got a clue what to look for,
>>> but thought I might gain some useful knowledge / do's and don'ts by posting
>>> here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>> Gareth.
>>>
>>
>> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
>>
>> Sorry, but I can't stand the things.
>>
>> d
>>
>
>
>Yes, but you have to have *something* to plug into the
>"accordion" input on your Ampeg amp!
>
>And you sound like somebody who needs to become familiar
>with Flaco Jiminez. It's not *all* "Lady of Spain".

I am familiar. I actually own a Bandoneon, which I have been known to
play for Tango dancers.

Still loathe accordions though. I particularly hate the "breathing"
cadence that players adopt - all the stresses on the wrong beats.

d

[hank alrich]

Les Cargill > wrote:

> Don Pearce wrote:
> > On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:38:06 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> someone has asked me to provide a small microphone that he will fit
> >> inside of an accordion.
> >>
> >> He has, for decades, been using an old WEM Custom Accordion Mic, which
> >> looks like it uses an electret condensor capsule. It has a 9v powered
> >> plastic box with jack in and out. This mic appears to be dead.
> >>
> >> Anyway, wouldn't electret condensors distort so close to what must be a
> >> pretty loud sound source? (inside the accordion)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm a bit loathe to do this as I haven't really got a clue what to look
> >> for, but thought I might gain some useful knowledge / do's and don'ts
> >> by posting here.
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >>
> >> Gareth.
> >>
> >
> > An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
> >
> > Sorry, but I can't stand the things.
> >
> > d
> >
>
>
> Yes, but you have to have *something* to plug into the
> "accordion" input on your Ampeg amp!
>
> And you sound like somebody who needs to become familiar
> with Flaco Jiminez. It's not *all* "Lady of Spain".

Roger that!

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[polymod]

"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
k...
> Les Cargill wrote:

> Just as when recording a harp, yes the Harpo instrument, you should not
> get too close to accordion because of the way it projects it sound.

Don't forget the added "key noise" which sounds like an old manual
typewriter.
I would think the farther away the mic is the better. Like the next county.

I know. I played classical accordion for 15 years.

Poly

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Peter Larsen wrote:
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>> Peter Larsen wrote:
>
>>> I have recorded two very good duos, one being viola and accordion
>>> and the other two accordions. Both are very well sounding. As with
>>> harp:
>
>> Does that mean harmonica or large thing with strings and pedals? I
>> would think a good room extremely important for the latter kind.
>
> Just as when recording a harp, yes the Harpo instrument, you should not get
> too close to accordion because of the way it projects it sound. I had one in
> a single pair recording - in line with the ensemble - and it stood out as if
> 2 meters in front of it. Next time I encountered one I miked it at 5 feet so
> as to have something to add reverb to, classical "few microphones"
> oratorium, ie. pair for choir behind orchestra, similar pair on orchestra,
> one for vox and one for harp.
>

Massive bleed, then? Probably a good opportunity for tuning
the stereo image.

>> Saying "harp" in the same context with "accordion" makes me think
>> "harmonica", but "harp" is a very American-slang thing; not sure if
>> it made it across the Atlantic.
>
> Must be a transmutation via jew harp, ie. cowboys calling it a harp if it is
> held in front of the mouth and kinda blown into.
>


I think it's a corruption of "blues harp", which may be a corruption of
that twanger thing "jaw harp". Maybe somebody was trying to de-anti-
Semite-ize "jew harp"; I dunno.

"Jaw harp" made sense to me because you're using the jaw as part of
the resonant chamber for the thing.

> Viola and accordion strongly recommended for ensemble playing, their sounds
> merge very well and it becomes one instrument with a wider sonic range and
> some of the time you can't really make out which instrument plays which
> parts. The repertoire is however smallish so arrangers skills are likely to
> be useful.

It's a common enough combination in Cajun music.

>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
>
>

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Don Pearce wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:01:39 -0600, Les Cargill
> > wrote:
>
>> Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 13:38:06 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> someone has asked me to provide a small microphone that he will fit inside
>>>> of an accordion.
>>>>
>>>> He has, for decades, been using an old WEM Custom Accordion Mic, which looks
>>>> like it uses an electret condensor capsule. It has a 9v powered plastic box
>>>> with jack in and out. This mic appears to be dead.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, wouldn't electret condensors distort so close to what must be a
>>>> pretty loud sound source? (inside the accordion)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm a bit loathe to do this as I haven't really got a clue what to look for,
>>>> but thought I might gain some useful knowledge / do's and don'ts by posting
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gareth.
>>>>
>>>
>>> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I can't stand the things.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, but you have to have *something* to plug into the
>> "accordion" input on your Ampeg amp!
>>
>> And you sound like somebody who needs to become familiar
>> with Flaco Jiminez. It's not *all* "Lady of Spain".
>
> I am familiar. I actually own a Bandoneon, which I have been known to
> play for Tango dancers.
>

My bad then. Tango is some of the best humans have ever concocted, IMO.

> Still loathe accordions though. I particularly hate the "breathing"
> cadence that players adopt - all the stresses on the wrong beats.
>

Yeah.

> d
>
--
Les Cargill

[gareth magennis]

"polymod" wrote in message ...


"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
k...
> Les Cargill wrote:

> Just as when recording a harp, yes the Harpo instrument, you should not
> get too close to accordion because of the way it projects it sound.

Don't forget the added "key noise" which sounds like an old manual
typewriter.
I would think the farther away the mic is the better. Like the next county.

I know. I played classical accordion for 15 years.

Poly




The owner of this accordion has now added another electret condenser mic
somewhere in the bellows to attempt to reduce this key noise, which
apparently he found rather annoying too.
I'm to attempt to connect it to his old WEM pre-amp, so I'm told.

The original WEM mic used 3 lines, and the WEM box has a TRS with 4.5v on
the ring, so I presume it wasn't an electret, but a consdenser with separate
power supply pin.
This had been replaced at some point by a 2-terminal mic utilising just 2
lines, so presumably this is an electret, and was working fine with the WEM
box til it broke.

The accordion is from this company, but I don't know which model. It has had
a MIDI factory retrofit.
http://www.themusicroom-online.co.uk/popup_image.php/pID/5168?mrSid=45b729786ca7cb0a108e307557013d15


Cheers,

Gareth.


Cheers,

Gareth.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/1/2014 1:19 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
> The original WEM mic used 3 lines, and the WEM box has a TRS with 4.5v
> on the ring, so I presume it wasn't an electret, but a consdenser with
> separate power supply pin.
> This had been replaced at some point by a 2-terminal mic utilising just
> 2 lines, so presumably this is an electret, and was working fine with
> the WEM box til it broke.

It's probably an electret but even electrets need need an impedance
converter and that's what the power is for. I guess the original mic
used a separate pin for power. They way that "plug-in power" that you
find on phones and tiny recorders uses capacitors to keep DC off the
audio and just runs the DC over the mic cable between the conductor and
shield.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/31/2014 1:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!

Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People play "Lady of Spain."


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Les Cargill wrote:

>> Viola and accordion strongly recommended for ensemble playing, their
>> sounds merge very well and it becomes one instrument with a wider
>> sonic range and some of the time you can't really make out which
>> instrument plays which parts. The repertoire is however smallish so
>> arrangers skills are likely to be useful.

> It's a common enough combination in Cajun music.

Viola, not violin/fiddle

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

Probably commenting on what polymod wrote, his post didn't make it until it
got quoted.

> "polymod" wrote in message ...

> "Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
> k...
>> Les Cargill wrote:

>> Just as when recording a harp, yes the Harpo instrument, you should
>> not get too close to accordion because of the way it projects it
>> sound.

> Don't forget the added "key noise" which sounds like an old manual
> typewriter.
> I would think the farther away the mic is the better. Like the next
> county.

> I know. I played classical accordion for 15 years.

Actually when I recorded an accordion duo they asked me to pull further back
than I wanted to be, shouldn't have let them listen on the site because
things like that work quite differnently on loudspeakers than on headphones
.... O;-) ... anway the key noise is there, it is a part of the instrument,
just as finger noise is a part of the guitar and air noise is a part of the
church organ.

> Poly

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

polymod > wrote:
>"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
k...
>> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>> Just as when recording a harp, yes the Harpo instrument, you should not
>> get too close to accordion because of the way it projects it sound.
>
>Don't forget the added "key noise" which sounds like an old manual
>typewriter.
>I would think the farther away the mic is the better. Like the next county.
>
>I know. I played classical accordion for 15 years.

The folks who like the internal microphones mostly like them because of
the very high gain before feedback and the fact that they can move around
without worrying about where the mikes are. But I have also heard folks
say they like them because they don't pick up the key noise.

My inclination is to put one or two 644s up, a few feet away, and unless the
stage levels are insanely high I have always found that to sound better.
Still, some folks want the internal mikes.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Gareth Magennis > wrote:
>I'm to attempt to connect it to his old WEM pre-amp, so I'm told.
>
>The original WEM mic used 3 lines, and the WEM box has a TRS with 4.5v on
>the ring, so I presume it wasn't an electret, but a consdenser with separate
>power supply pin.
>This had been replaced at some point by a 2-terminal mic utilising just 2
>lines, so presumably this is an electret, and was working fine with the WEM
>box til it broke.

The original was an electret... if it were externally polarized you'd see
a 50-volt or even higher supply.

Try a 2.2K resistor from the power pin to the electret capsule, then a
10uF cap from the electret capsule to the signal output.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[S. King]

On Sat, 01 Feb 2014 18:47:59 -0500, Mike Rivers wrote:

> On 2/1/2014 1:19 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
>> The original WEM mic used 3 lines, and the WEM box has a TRS with 4.5v
>> on the ring, so I presume it wasn't an electret, but a consdenser with
>> separate power supply pin.
>> This had been replaced at some point by a 2-terminal mic utilising just
>> 2 lines, so presumably this is an electret, and was working fine with
>> the WEM box til it broke.
>
> It's probably an electret but even electrets need need an impedance
> converter and that's what the power is for. I guess the original mic
> used a separate pin for power. They way that "plug-in power" that you
> find on phones and tiny recorders uses capacitors to keep DC off the
> audio and just runs the DC over the mic cable between the conductor and
> shield.

Here's some information that might help you with hooking up electret
mics. Google "smkitta5_td.pdf" for Lectrosonics info. Also a Google of 2
wire and 3 wire electret microphone schematic will bring you a bunch of
information that might help get a working mic in the accordian.

Steve King

[gareth magennis]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...

Gareth Magennis > wrote:
>I'm to attempt to connect it to his old WEM pre-amp, so I'm told.
>
>The original WEM mic used 3 lines, and the WEM box has a TRS with 4.5v on
>the ring, so I presume it wasn't an electret, but a consdenser with
>separate
>power supply pin.
>This had been replaced at some point by a 2-terminal mic utilising just 2
>lines, so presumably this is an electret, and was working fine with the WEM
>box til it broke.

The original was an electret... if it were externally polarized you'd see
a 50-volt or even higher supply.

Try a 2.2K resistor from the power pin to the electret capsule, then a
10uF cap from the electret capsule to the signal output.
--scott



Thanks Scott.

I've been getting confused with understanding that an electret mic does not
require a power supply, but many (most, all?) electret capsules contain a
FET, which does.


Cheers,

Gareth.

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> On 1/31/2014 1:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> > An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
>
> Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People play "Lady of Spain."

That's good!

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[polymod]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
> On 1/31/2014 1:59 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> An accordion with a broken mic.... a man can dream!
>
> Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People play "Lady of Spain."

+1 LOL!
I have to remember that one for my accordion playing friends....

Poly

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce > wrote:
>>
>>And you sound like somebody who needs to become familiar
>>with Flaco Jiminez. It's not *all* "Lady of Spain".
>
>I am familiar. I actually own a Bandoneon, which I have been known to
>play for Tango dancers.
>
>Still loathe accordions though. I particularly hate the "breathing"
>cadence that players adopt - all the stresses on the wrong beats.

Accordion players get blamed in general for a lot of faults which are
Lawrence Welk's fault.

I had these guys on my stage at a festival last fall and they were great fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6koYTp1azs

Try to ignore the fake reverb and the failing camera tubes...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."