Mains/signal combo cables - inherently fragile ?

[geoff]

I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
multiple breaks in the signal wires.

My guess is either:

A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or

B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
radius of the bend.

Thoughts ?

geoff

[John Williamson]

On 03/01/2014 05:40, geoff wrote:
> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
> sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
> multiple breaks in the signal wires.
>
> My guess is either:
>
> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>
> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
> part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
> radius of the bend.
>
They are also probably illegal for use in the UK, as you are not allowed
to combine mains power and signal wires in the same cable, or, for fixed
installations in the same conduit.

But, I'd say that option B might apply.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[geoff]

On 3/01/2014 9:50 p.m., John Williamson wrote:
> On 03/01/2014 05:40, geoff wrote:
>> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
>> sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
>> multiple breaks in the signal wires.
>>
>> My guess is either:
>>
>> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>>
>> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
>> part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
>> radius of the bend.
>>
> They are also probably illegal for use in the UK, as you are not allowed
> to combine mains power and signal wires in the same cable, or, for fixed
> installations in the same conduit.
>
> But, I'd say that option B might apply.
>
>


They are actually two separate (independantly compliant) cables with an
extra outer sheath binding them together. So possibly becomes a 'gray
area'.

geoff

[John Williamson]

On 03/01/2014 10:11, geoff wrote:
> On 3/01/2014 9:50 p.m., John Williamson wrote:
>> On 03/01/2014 05:40, geoff wrote:
>>> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
>>> sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
>>> multiple breaks in the signal wires.
>>>
>>> My guess is either:
>>>
>>> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>>>
>>> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
>>> part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
>>> radius of the bend.
>>>
>> They are also probably illegal for use in the UK, as you are not allowed
>> to combine mains power and signal wires in the same cable, or, for fixed
>> installations in the same conduit.
>>
>> But, I'd say that option B might apply.
>>
>>
>
>
> They are actually two separate (independantly compliant) cables with an
> extra outer sheath binding them together. So possibly becomes a 'gray
> area'.
>
They both need to be insulated to the higher standard to be legal. And
all the guys in the USA are wondering what we're on about....


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/3/2014 12:40 AM, geoff wrote:
> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
> sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
> multiple breaks in the signal wires.
>
> My guess is either:
> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile

From your description of the construction, there doesn't seem to be
anything inherently wrong. What's the history? When someone says
"acquired" it often means "was given" or "got for a great price on
eBay." Is it possible that the cables were seriously abused before you
acquired them?

It sounds like these may have been home made. Is the signal cable
multiconductor? Could it be solid wire? Or too small to withstand the
rigors of live sound?

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff > wrote:
>I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
>sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
>multiple breaks in the signal wires.
>
>My guess is either:
>
>A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>
>B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
>part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
>radius of the bend.
>
>Thoughts ?

What kind of cable is it? Stranded or solid? Foil or braid shield? It may
be intended for installed use and just not able to handle being rolled and
unrolled all the time.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

On 4/01/2014 1:47 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 1/3/2014 12:40 AM, geoff wrote:
>> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
>> sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
>> multiple breaks in the signal wires.
>>
>> My guess is either:
>> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile
>
> From your description of the construction, there doesn't seem to be
> anything inherently wrong. What's the history? When someone says
> "acquired" it often means "was given" or "got for a great price on
> eBay." Is it possible that the cables were seriously abused before you
> acquired them?
>
> It sounds like these may have been home made. Is the signal cable
> multiconductor? Could it be solid wire? Or too small to withstand the
> rigors of live sound?
>

Not home-mde.

Purchased bundled with some CV subs. May have been wound too tight a
radius at some point, but were looked pretty new. Could be LEEM brand ,
or generic OEM that LEEM use.

There seem to be clean fractures every 3 or 4 metres, in the signal
wires, at separate points for the hot and cold.

Thinking about it, if you bend such a cable, if the cable on the outer
radius is held firm by the sheath and the inner-radius cable is
heavier/stronger - it should actually put a stretching stress on the
outer cable - maybe a problem as signal wires weaker weaker...


geoff

[geoff]

On 4/01/2014 3:21 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
> geoff > wrote:
>> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
>> sheathed together with a mains power cable. They have all developed
>> multiple breaks in the signal wires.
>>
>> My guess is either:
>>
>> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>>
>> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
>> part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
>> radius of the bend.
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>
> What kind of cable is it? Stranded or solid? Foil or braid shield? It may
> be intended for installed use and just not able to handle being rolled and
> unrolled all the time.
> --scott
>

Stranded. The signal wires insulation seems quite stiff though. Similar
(if not same) are sold as if for portble use:

I guess it is this stuff:
http://www.promusicaustralia.com/guitar/leemimages/AIEC_CABLES_AUDIO_POWRD.JPG

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"geoff"

>I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable sheathed
>together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple breaks
>in the signal wires.
>
> My guess is either:
>
> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>
> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
> part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
> radius of the bend.


** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859

Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.

Last for yonks.



..... Phil

[geoff]

On 4/01/2014 3:09 p.m., Phil Allison wrote:
> "geoff"
>
>> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable sheathed
>> together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple breaks
>> in the signal wires.
>>
>> My guess is either:
>>
>> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>>
>> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
>> part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
>> radius of the bend.
>
>
> ** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859
>
> Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.
>
> Last for yonks.
>
>
>
> .... Phil


Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).

Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
dissected, or needed to.

geoff

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"geoff"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>> "geoff"
>>
>>> I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable
>>> sheathed
>>> together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple
>>> breaks
>>> in the signal wires.
>>>
>>> My guess is either:
>>>
>>> A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
>>>
>>> B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
>>> part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
>>> radius of the bend.
>>
>>
>> ** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859
>>
>> Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.
>>
>> Last for yonks.
>>
>
> Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).


** So you were trolling us as usual.


> Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal,


** Got SFA to do with your ****ing stupid troll.

FOAD **** head.






as the mains wires
> aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
> dissected, or needed to.
>
> geoff
>

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff > wrote:
>
>Purchased bundled with some CV subs. May have been wound too tight a
>radius at some point, but were looked pretty new. Could be LEEM brand ,
>or generic OEM that LEEM use.
>
>There seem to be clean fractures every 3 or 4 metres, in the signal
>wires, at separate points for the hot and cold.

This sounds like crap cable to me. This is the sort of thing that you
get using solid core cable for field use, etc.

>Thinking about it, if you bend such a cable, if the cable on the outer
>radius is held firm by the sheath and the inner-radius cable is
>heavier/stronger - it should actually put a stretching stress on the
>outer cable - maybe a problem as signal wires weaker weaker...

Right, and if cable is well-designed, there is some expansion ability
because the individual strands can twist and untwist a bit, and the
copper is low oxygen stuff that has been soft drawn and is somewhat
elastic.

I think you are the victim of crappy Chinese manufacture. I'd try
and contact the manufacturer and just see if they know about it.
They probably do.

You could also contact Steve Lampen at Belden. He won't be able to do
anything about it but it would give him a good laugh. He loves that stuff.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Lord Valve]

Phil Allison wrote:

> "geoff"
>
> >I acquired 4 of these that have a screened balanced signal cable sheathed
> >together with a mains power cable. They have all developed multiple breaks
> >in the signal wires.
> >
> > My guess is either:
> >
> > A - It's a crap brand (no-name) of cable, or
> >
> > B - That this type of cable is inherently fragile, with the signal cable
> > part being unduly stressed when the cable bends with it on the outer
> > radius of the bend.
>
> ** Ever see an old "Leslie" cabinet cable ??
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-9-pin-Leslie-Tone-Cabinet-30-ft-connecting-cable-to-organ-footpedal-/310831828771#ht_226wt_859
>
> Mains power, balanced audio and motor speed switching all in one.
>
> Last for yonks.
>
> .... Phil

....

Not only that, for a 122 being operated with a console
that had no internal HV supply (as many of the early ones
did not) there were two lines for balanced audio (upon which
a DC voltage was impressed to control a tube which fired
the tremolo relay), two for AC mains, one for ground, and
one for B+! So you have signal, ground, motor control,
AC mains, and high voltage all in the same cable. I've
seen them used on the road for *decades* before failure.

Lord Valve
Tech/Organist

[geoff]

On 6/01/2014 12:10 a.m., Phil Allison wrote:

>>>
>>
>> Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
>
>
> ** So you were trolling us as usual.

Que ?

>
>
>> Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal,
> ** Got SFA to do with your ****ing stupid troll.
>
> FOAD **** head.
>

Overdue time to take your meds again Phil.

geoff

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"geoff"
<
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
>>
>>
>> ** So you were trolling us as usual.
>
> Que ?
>

** Stop snipping and READ you own question - fool.

[hank alrich]

geoff > wrote:

> Overdue time to take your meds again Phil.

I dont think there's a pill for PMS yet.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[geoff]

On 6/01/2014 12:04 a.m., geoff wrote:

>
> Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
>
> Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
> aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
> dissected, or needed to.

OK, think I've solved it wrt my existing cables.

Both the 9-wire and 5-wire Leslie cable are much stiffer than my LEEM(?)
'active speaker' ones. They coil OK, at a radius of around 0.5m but will
not naturally bend tighter than that.

The 'active speaker' combo cable is far more flexible - even floppy -
and can bend at a radius of a few inches without force. However in some
orientations this stretches any cable on the outside of the radius, and
if it's the signal cable the force is amplified by the fulcrum provided
by the firmer power cable on the 'inside.

Whether or not this is a specific weakness of this brand, I do not know,
and don't really fancy spending hundreds of dollars on another brand
(Proel is available) to find out. Or it could even be the same OEM junk ...

geoff

[geoff]

On 7/01/2014 9:10 a.m., geoff wrote:
> On 6/01/2014 12:04 a.m., geoff wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
>>
>> Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
>> aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
>> dissected, or needed to.
>
> OK, think I've solved it wrt my existing cables.
>
> Both the 9-wire and 5-wire Leslie cable are much stiffer than my LEEM(?)
> 'active speaker' ones. They coil OK, at a radius of around 0.5m but will
> not naturally bend tighter than that.
>
> The 'active speaker' combo cable is far more flexible - even floppy -
> and can bend at a radius of a few inches without force. However in some
> orientations this stretches any cable on the outside of the radius, and
> if it's the signal cable the force is amplified by the fulcrum provided
> by the firmer power cable on the 'inside.
>
> Whether or not this is a specific weakness of this brand, I do not know,
> and don't really fancy spending hundreds of dollars on another brand
> (Proel is available) to find out. Or it could even be the same OEM junk
> ...
>
> geoff
>

So it seems that thanks to our resident psycho ****ting all over my
thread I'll just have to take a punt on investing in a similar cable of
alternative brand ;-(

geoff

[hank alrich]

geoff > wrote:

> On 7/01/2014 9:10 a.m., geoff wrote:
> > On 6/01/2014 12:04 a.m., geoff wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Yeah - I've got Leslie cables for my Leslie ( and PR40).
> >>
> >> Oddly, the Leslie cables possibly aren't legal, as the mains wires
> >> aren't separately sheathed/insulated wrt the signal ones. Maybe - I have
> >> dissected, or needed to.
> >
> > OK, think I've solved it wrt my existing cables.
> >
> > Both the 9-wire and 5-wire Leslie cable are much stiffer than my LEEM(?)
> > 'active speaker' ones. They coil OK, at a radius of around 0.5m but will
> > not naturally bend tighter than that.
> >
> > The 'active speaker' combo cable is far more flexible - even floppy -
> > and can bend at a radius of a few inches without force. However in some
> > orientations this stretches any cable on the outside of the radius, and
> > if it's the signal cable the force is amplified by the fulcrum provided
> > by the firmer power cable on the 'inside.
> >
> > Whether or not this is a specific weakness of this brand, I do not know,
> > and don't really fancy spending hundreds of dollars on another brand
> > (Proel is available) to find out. Or it could even be the same OEM junk
> > ...
> >
> > geoff
> >
>
> So it seems that thanks to our resident psycho ****ting all over my
> thread I'll just have to take a punt on investing in a similar cable of
> alternative brand ;-(
>
> geoff

√

whew

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[nickbatz]

I saw this and for a minute thought it was the famous J-Con connector from an AES Show a few - quite a few - years ago: 1/4" TRS to 120V.

J-Con stood for Jesus Chris of Nazareth, whom you'd be very likely to meet.

[hank alrich]

nickbatz > wrote:

> I saw this and for a minute thought it was the famous J-Con connector from
> an AES Show a few - quite a few - years ago: 1/4" TRS to 120V.
>
> J-Con stood for Jesus Chris of Nazareth, whom you'd be very likely to
> meet.

Thank you, Nick. <g>

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic