help me with speakers

[Nate Najar]

I mean the drivers themselves.

I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker is intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range" model meaning it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust the tweeter. For many uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself is really nicely made and very durable, but for acoustic guitar, my main use, it doesn't sound very good. It sounds excellent with archtop guitar, which is its intended use. I don't want to mention the brand because I don't want to put any negative words about them on the internet.

This cab has a 10" woofer (presumably an eminence delta lite) and a tweeter, connected to an L pad. I need to take it apart and see what the tweeter is- it looks like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg

So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is boomy.. This is with an acoustic guitar. Who makes good third party drivers and what would I want to achieve a reasonable full range reproduction? I want smooth, clean sound. I don't need to push too much air, it is for modest volume levels. Any thoughts? Abandon the tweeter and put in a dual concentric? something else?

thanks!

N

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Nate Najar wrote:

> I mean the drivers themselves.

Beyma if it has to be new. Warning: all suggestions spec based.

> I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker
> is intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range"
> model meaning it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust
> the tweeter. For many uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself
> is really nicely made and very durable, but for acoustic guitar, my
> main use, it doesn't sound very good. It sounds excellent with
> archtop guitar, which is its intended use. I don't want to mention
> the brand because I don't want to put any negative words about them
> on the internet.

It does its job, fine. Looks neat too.

> This cab has a 10" woofer (presumably an eminence delta lite) and a
> tweeter, connected to an L pad. I need to take it apart and see what
> the tweeter is- it looks like this:

> https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg
>
> So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is
> boomy. This is with an acoustic guitar.

I think it is a piezo unit. A possibly useful candidate is:

http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/CP16.pdf

or

http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/CP12N.pdf

Dispersion pattern is a bit narrow ... but probably like what's there
already and frequency response looks fair.

> Who makes good third party
> drivers and what would I want to achieve a reasonable full range
> reproduction? I want smooth, clean sound. I don't need to push too
> much air, it is for modest volume levels. Any thoughts? Abandon the
> tweeter and put in a dual concentric? something else?

Look inside the box, perhaps it just needs a bit of acoustilux or similar
damping material to fix the midrange ....

However it may be that it doesn't quite reach all the way up to the treble
unit. There is not a lot of front panel real estate, otherwise I'd suggest a

http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/SMC8060.pdf

but I don't think there's room for it, and it is possibly the smallest
footprint something that will x-over at 2500 Hz.

A possibly suitable coax:

http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/10XC25E.pdf

NOTE: frequency response graphs seem to be without attenuation of the treble
unit. NOTE2: I see no x-over specs in the specsheet, so it probably needs an
external x-over. 6 kHZ comes to mind

> thanks!

Try looking at present box innards first, I think you will find that there
is no damping material and that the midrange improves by adding some. If
loudspeaker units beyond just the treble need replacement then perhaps it is
better to sell it like it is and start from scratch.

> N

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Nate Najar]

On Monday, December 30, 2013 7:18:13 PM UTC-5, Peter Larsen wrote:
> Nate Najar wrote:
>
>
>
> > I mean the drivers themselves.
>
>
>
> Beyma if it has to be new. Warning: all suggestions spec based.
>
>
>
> > I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker
>
> > is intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range"
>
> > model meaning it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust
>
> > the tweeter. For many uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself
>
> > is really nicely made and very durable, but for acoustic guitar, my
>
> > main use, it doesn't sound very good. It sounds excellent with
>
> > archtop guitar, which is its intended use. I don't want to mention
>
> > the brand because I don't want to put any negative words about them
>
> > on the internet.
>
>
>
> It does its job, fine. Looks neat too.
>
>
>
> > This cab has a 10" woofer (presumably an eminence delta lite) and a
>
> > tweeter, connected to an L pad. I need to take it apart and see what
>
> > the tweeter is- it looks like this:
>
>
>
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg
>
> >
>
> > So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is
>
> > boomy. This is with an acoustic guitar.
>
>
>
> I think it is a piezo unit. A possibly useful candidate is:
>
>
>
> http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/CP16.pdf
>
>
>
> or
>
>
>
> http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/CP12N.pdf
>
>
>
> Dispersion pattern is a bit narrow ... but probably like what's there
>
> already and frequency response looks fair.
>
>
>
> > Who makes good third party
>
> > drivers and what would I want to achieve a reasonable full range
>
> > reproduction? I want smooth, clean sound. I don't need to push too
>
> > much air, it is for modest volume levels. Any thoughts? Abandon the
>
> > tweeter and put in a dual concentric? something else?
>
>
>
> Look inside the box, perhaps it just needs a bit of acoustilux or similar
>
> damping material to fix the midrange ....
>
>
>
> However it may be that it doesn't quite reach all the way up to the treble
>
> unit. There is not a lot of front panel real estate, otherwise I'd suggest a
>
>
>
> http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/SMC8060.pdf
>
>
>
> but I don't think there's room for it, and it is possibly the smallest
>
> footprint something that will x-over at 2500 Hz.
>
>
>
> A possibly suitable coax:
>
>
>
> http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/10XC25E.pdf
>
>
>
> NOTE: frequency response graphs seem to be without attenuation of the treble
>
> unit. NOTE2: I see no x-over specs in the specsheet, so it probably needs an
>
> external x-over. 6 kHZ comes to mind
>
>
>
> > thanks!
>
>
>
> Try looking at present box innards first, I think you will find that there
>
> is no damping material and that the midrange improves by adding some. If
>
> loudspeaker units beyond just the treble need replacement then perhaps it is
>
> better to sell it like it is and start from scratch.
>
>
>
> > N
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> Peter Larsen

Peter,

That's so helpful thanks.

US Speaker has a beyma crossover intended for use with this coax driver you mentioned. It crosses over at 1.8k. It seems that a coax and the crossover might be the smartest solution- one quick change and there you are. I could just disconnect the l-pad and existing tweeter but leave them in place..

Since the cab sits on the floor right behind me, a coax might be the way to go.

N

[Neil Gould]

Hi Nate,

Nate Najar wrote:
> I mean the drivers themselves.
>
> I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker
> is intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range"
> model meaning it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust
> the tweeter. For many uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself
> is really nicely made and very durable, but for acoustic guitar, my
> main use, it doesn't sound very good. It sounds excellent with
> archtop guitar, which is its intended use. I don't want to mention
> the brand because I don't want to put any negative words about them
> on the internet.
>
> This cab has a 10" woofer (presumably an eminence delta lite) and a
> tweeter, connected to an L pad. I need to take it apart and see what
> the tweeter is- it looks like this:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg
>
> So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is
> boomy. This is with an acoustic guitar. Who makes good third party
> drivers and what would I want to achieve a reasonable full range
> reproduction? I want smooth, clean sound. I don't need to push too
> much air, it is for modest volume levels. Any thoughts? Abandon the
> tweeter and put in a dual concentric? something else?
>
From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the tweeter (I
agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not optimal for your
acoustic guitar. I can't tell from the picture what the settings on the
L-pad are... is it a sweep or a switch? Is there a crossover in the box, or
is the tweeter wired in parallel with the 10" with the L-pad in-line (I'd
think not, but there's only one way to know for sure)?

I'd guess that the immediately audible difference between an electric
archtop and an acoustic guitar would be their response in the hi-mid and hf
ranges. Rather than start with a hardware change, I'd use a parametric EQ to
determine what really needs to be done to the sound to make it better. In
fact, an EQ could solve your problem, since it might allow you to roll off
the tweeter and boost the hi-mid range when using your acoustic.
--
best regards,

Neil

[PStamler]

Yeah, almost certainly a piezo. In my experience these *always* sound harsh, high-distortion and peaky. Often they're used with no crossover at all, which makes them sound even worse.

I don't know the sensitivity of this particulae woofer, but if it's anywhere close to 95dB-SPL/2.8V, you might try one of the horn-loaded tweeters from Vifa, crossing over at about 2800Hz. Use a steep crossover -- 24dB/octave would probably be best -- and maybe hang a Zobel network on the woofer.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Peter Larsen > wrote:
>Nate Najar wrote:
>
>> I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker
>> is intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range"
>> model meaning it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust
>> the tweeter. For many uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself
>> is really nicely made and very durable, but for acoustic guitar, my
>> main use, it doesn't sound very good. It sounds excellent with
>> archtop guitar, which is its intended use. I don't want to mention
>> the brand because I don't want to put any negative words about them
>> on the internet.
>
>It does its job, fine. Looks neat too.

Okay, my first comment here is that this is probably intended to flatter
the sound of the instrument rather than being flat. If you want a flat
and accurate device, you may have to do some cabinet reinforcement as well.

>A possibly suitable coax:
>
>http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/10XC25E.pdf

I agree that a good way to start would be to put a coaxial driver in, if
only because so much of the engineering has already been done for you and
there is less to screw up.

The Beyma is an excellent driver, although I will say that you can get a
Radian driver that is also a very good performer (maybe a little harsher on
top) for considerably less.

>Try looking at present box innards first, I think you will find that there
>is no damping material and that the midrange improves by adding some. If
>loudspeaker units beyond just the treble need replacement then perhaps it is
>better to sell it like it is and start from scratch.

My inclination is to do just that, because you can spend a lot of money
and time fiddling with speakers and never get them right. On the other hand,
if you are looking for a recreational activity, fiddling with speakers could
be a good one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Nate Najar wrote:
> I mean the drivers themselves.
>
> I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker
> is intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range"
> model meaning it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust
> the tweeter. For many uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself
> is really nicely made and very durable, but for acoustic guitar, my
> main use, it doesn't sound very good. It sounds excellent with
> archtop guitar, which is its intended use. I don't want to mention
> the brand because I don't want to put any negative words about them
> on the internet.
>
> This cab has a 10" woofer (presumably an eminence delta lite) and a
> tweeter, connected to an L pad. I need to take it apart and see what
> the tweeter is- it looks like this:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg
>
> So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is
> boomy. This is with an acoustic guitar. Who makes good third party
> drivers and what would I want to achieve a reasonable full range
> reproduction? I want smooth, clean sound. I don't need to push too
> much air, it is for modest volume levels. Any thoughts? Abandon the
> tweeter and put in a dual concentric? something else?
>
> thanks!
>
> N
>

An Eminence Delta Lite is good to about 4k. What happens when you crank
the l-pad all the way down?


--
Les Cargill

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Les Cargill wrote:

> An Eminence Delta Lite is good to about 4k.

No. "Good" is not applicable if implying "high fidelity", but may however be
applicable for electric guitar. See:

http://www.eminence.com/pdf/DeltaliteII_2510.pdf

Requires _steep_ x-over at 600 Hz or drastic eq in x-over. Somehow I don't
really really think it is present in the construction asked about.

Perhaps it is best to sell the box as it is for what it is good for and
build a new one with dimensions 3 to 5 to 8, it looks too "squarish" for my
liking and that could be part of the cause for perceived midrange problems
on acoustic guitar.

> What happens when you
> crank the l-pad all the way down?

It quite possibly gets worse because the upper midrange peak looms then
looms higher above the landscape.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Peter Larsen wrote:
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>> An Eminence Delta Lite is good to about 4k.
>
> No. "Good" is not applicable if implying "high fidelity", but may however be
> applicable for electric guitar. See:
>
> http://www.eminence.com/pdf/DeltaliteII_2510.pdf
>


Ooof. Yowch. Great find, Peter.

I have some 15" non-neo Deltas and figured they were about
the same response curve*. The 15" are pretty smooth, and 10" are
usually a little easier to make linear than 15".

*the old "assume" thing strikes again...

So my bad. That is a big ole hump. You really need to get rid
of that hump in the enclosure design, and that might get ugly.

> Requires _steep_ x-over at 600 Hz or drastic eq in x-over. Somehow I don't
> really really think it is present in the construction asked about.
>
> Perhaps it is best to sell the box as it is for what it is good for and
> build a new one with dimensions 3 to 5 to 8, it looks too "squarish" for my
> liking and that could be part of the cause for perceived midrange problems
> on acoustic guitar.
>
>> What happens when you
>> crank the l-pad all the way down?
>
> It quite possibly gets worse because the upper midrange peak looms then
> looms higher above the landscape.
>

Yeah, I could definitely see that.

> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
>
>
--
Les Cargill

[gregz]

"Peter Larsen" > wrote:
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>> An Eminence Delta Lite is good to about 4k.
>
> No. "Good" is not applicable if implying "high fidelity", but may however be
> applicable for electric guitar. See:
>
> http://www.eminence.com/pdf/DeltaliteII_2510.pdf
>
> Requires _steep_ x-over at 600 Hz or drastic eq in x-over. Somehow I don't
> really really think it is present in the construction asked about.
>
> Perhaps it is best to sell the box as it is for what it is good for and
> build a new one with dimensions 3 to 5 to 8, it looks too "squarish" for my
> liking and that could be part of the cause for perceived midrange problems
> on acoustic guitar.
>
>> What happens when you
>> crank the l-pad all the way down?
>
> It quite possibly gets worse because the upper midrange peak looms then
> looms higher above the landscape.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen

Your creating things for guitar, while going against good design. Anything
goes. The driver should be no higher than 1 kHz normally to avoid beaming.
I'd try the box with tweeter disconnected. No other funny business on
driver.

Greg

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

gregz wrote:

> "Peter Larsen" > wrote:

> Your creating things for guitar, while going against good design.
> Anything goes.

Acoustic guitar which is to sound like acoustic guitar. You are right Greg,
and the box is known good for "archtop guitar", whatever that is, but not
for acoustic guitar.

> The driver should be no higher than 1 kHz normally to
> avoid beaming. I'd try the box with tweeter disconnected. No other
> funny business on driver.

The best PA for classical acoustic that I have heard was what the OP is
used to use for ensemble: a pair of Tannoy coaxials. This here thread is
about a single loudspeaker for classical guitar to sound like classical
guitar.

I think this thread here is worth reading in this context .... Harvey Gerst
could be right, the original D123 is a nice loudspeaker and could project
just right in a reverberant room, but one wouldn't know until the OP had
tried it. This because of the point you make but don't say you make: it is
about how pickup and loudspeaker combines.

See this 2004 thread that a search engine came up with for me when I asked
it about K120 soundalikes:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10456-JBL-D120-reproductions

> Greg

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[hank alrich]

Nate Najar > wrote:

> I mean the drivers themselves.
>
> I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker is
> intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range" model
> meaning it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust the tweeter.
> For many uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself is really nicely
> made and very durable, but for acoustic guitar, my main use, it doesn't
> sound very good. It sounds excellent with archtop guitar, which is its
> intended use. I don't want to mention the brand because I don't want to
> put any negative words about them on the internet.
>
> This cab has a 10" woofer (presumably an eminence delta lite) and a
> tweeter, connected to an L pad. I need to take it apart and see what the
> tweeter is- it looks like this:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg
>
> So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is
> boomy. This is with an acoustic guitar. Who makes good third party
> drivers and what would I want to achieve a reasonable full range
> reproduction? I want smooth, clean sound. I don't need to push too much
> air, it is for modest volume levels. Any thoughts? Abandon the tweeter
> and put in a dual concentric? something else?
>
> thanks!
>
> N

Have you tried a QSC K8?

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Neil Gould > wrote:

> From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the tweeter (I
> agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not optimal for your
> acoustic guitar.

Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?

Crudely stated, but not kidding. Maybe Nate's cab needs a crossover and
decent tweeter?

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

hank alrich wrote:

> Neil Gould > wrote:

>> From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the
>> tweeter (I agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not
>> optimal for your acoustic guitar.

> Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
> sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?

An acoustic lens helps by smearing the resonant output in time because of
the multiple paths. It is still added white noise instead of treble, but in
a more credible way. Combine that with a 50 Ohm resistor in series with the
piezo and an 8 Ohm parallel with the lot, in series with that a 2 microfarad
cap and it gets tolerable, a suitable coil in series gets the upper peak in
line. Feel free to ask for a component value, but I don't know it, I took a
small x-over coil and unwound some of it. Worked well in a voight horn with
freebie 9710's from a dumpster. The 8 ohms in parallel was just to make it
easy to make a x-over, they don't do anything for the performance, the 50
Ohm resistor in series are crucial.

Various variations on the 1970-80 piezo models are now available,
applicability of the above unknown.

> Crudely stated, but not kidding. Maybe Nate's cab needs a crossover
> and decent tweeter?

There is not a whole lot of real estate on the front panel and it needs
something that can x-over at 4 kHz or perhaps even 2k5, the Beyma version of
the 075 comes to mind but Beyma says 5 kHz or higher. It is not a bad box
per se, it just isn't made for acoustic guitar that should sound like
acoustic guitar.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/1/2014 3:19 AM, hank alrich wrote:
> Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
> sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?

Ah, for the good old days when sound guys used to steal the piezo
transducers from overhead traffic detectors.

I was running sound at a folk festival in Norfolk VA in the early 1970s,
and the speakers that the sound company brought sounded just horrid on
the high end. That's what they were using for tweeters in their home
built cabinets. When I asked what was wrong, the guy from the sound
company said "You're just not used to hearing high end. It sounds fine."
It didn't, but then I realized that I had to yell at him before he
could understand me.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich > wrote:
>Neil Gould > wrote:
>
>> From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the tweeter (I
>> agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not optimal for your
>> acoustic guitar.
>
>Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
>sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?

The Dhalquist DQ10 got remarkably good sound out of a piezo tweeter, but
it also wasn't anything like the the ordinary Motorola ones. And also..
it still was a little peaky.

>Crudely stated, but not kidding. Maybe Nate's cab needs a crossover and
>decent tweeter?

Yes, it certainly does. But what ELSE does it need? My sneaking suspicion
is that the harder you look, the more things you'll find need replacing, and
after a while you'll have replaced everything...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Neil Gould]

hank alrich wrote:
> Neil Gould > wrote:
>
>> From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the
>> tweeter (I agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not
>> optimal for your acoustic guitar.
>
> Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
> sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?
>
Not that I've heard... ;-)

> Crudely stated, but not kidding. Maybe Nate's cab needs a crossover
> and decent tweeter?
>
For acoustic guitar, a good 10" speaker without a tweeter can sound very
nice. But, since such things are a matter of taste, it depends on what Nate
wants to hear out of his acoustic.
--
best regards,

Neil

[William Sommerwerck]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...

> The Dhalquist DQ 10 got remarkably good sound out of a piezo tweeter,
> but it also wasn't anything like the the ordinary Motorola ones. And it
> still was a little peaky.

Not to mention the fact that it came in above 10kHz, if I recall correctly.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
>I was running sound at a folk festival in Norfolk VA in the early 1970s,
>and the speakers that the sound company brought sounded just horrid on
>the high end. That's what they were using for tweeters in their home
>built cabinets. When I asked what was wrong, the guy from the sound
>company said "You're just not used to hearing high end. It sounds fine."
> It didn't, but then I realized that I had to yell at him before he
>could understand me.

Was the sound company's name an acronym beginning with the letter A? If so,
they are still around and they were still using pieces of that horrible
system as late as 1995 for concerts in Town Point Park.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nate Najar]

you guys are consistently so helpful and educational.

It sounds like the best scenario is to either try a coax driver OR abandon the whole thing. On a time/cost basis it's probably better to leave it alone. It isn't a critical situation, I don't really use the cab much but it is a nicely made, durable box so I thought if I could improve the usage it would be useful. Then again, those tannoy coax PA speakers are starting to show up used here and there, I could just stick this back in storage and pick up another of them. They sound so good it's ridiculous. Of course they're also why I really dislike conventional MI products now. once you know what good is, anything less is, well, less!

Still, this discussion has enlightened me in many areas. And I appreciate it!

N

[John Williamson]

On 01/01/2014 18:34, Nate Najar wrote:
> you guys are consistently so helpful and educational.
>
> It sounds like the best scenario is to either try a coax driver OR abandon the whole thing. On a time/cost basis it's probably better to leave it alone. It isn't a critical situation, I don't really use the cab much but it is a nicely made, durable box so I thought if I could improve the usage it would be useful. Then again, those tannoy coax PA speakers are starting to show up used here and there, I could just stick this back in storage and pick up another of them. They sound so good it's ridiculous. Of course they're also why I really dislike conventional MI products now. once you know what good is, anything less is, well, less!
>
> Still, this discussion has enlightened me in many areas. And I appreciate it!
>
> N
>
I think the problem you have is that the requirements of a speaker to
make an electric (Archtop?) guitar are greatly different to those
required for a good reproduction of an acoustic guitar.

For the latter, linearity and low distortion is good, whereas for the
former, things like controlled breakup of the speaker cone and some
types of distortion in the amplifier are essential.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[geoff]

On 1/01/2014 7:26 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:

>
> I agree that a good way to start would be to put a coaxial driver in, if
> only because so much of the engineering has already been done for you and
> there is less to screw up.

Funny you should say that. I have a 10" Tannoy hifi driver lying around
that I have been considering building a portable 'acoustic' amp combo
box to house, just so it's not wasted.

Actually I have two of them (the problem is a 1.5dB mismatch in tweeter
sensitivity), but two coaxial drivers/tweeters in one box would create
more problems than any benefit I guess....

There is a project start in the latest Silicon Chip (oz electronics
hobby mag) for a portable amp such as this (complete with battery
management circuitry, if required), which will eventually have pcbs etc
available as a kitset. Can't be bothered to start from scratch myself -
still have my stage monitor x4 project I started 4 years ago, to finish !

geoff

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
>>> From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the tweeter
>>> (I
>>> agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not optimal for your
>>> acoustic guitar.
>>
>>Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
>>sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?
>
> The Dhalquist DQ10 got remarkably good sound out of a piezo tweeter, but
> it also wasn't anything like the the ordinary Motorola ones. And also..
> it still was a little peaky.
>
>>Crudely stated, but not kidding. Maybe Nate's cab needs a crossover and
>>decent tweeter?
>
> Yes, it certainly does. But what ELSE does it need? My sneaking
> suspicion
> is that the harder you look, the more things you'll find need replacing,
> and
> after a while you'll have replaced everything...


Right, I cant imagine (or heard) anything that uses piezo tweeters where
that would not be the case. As soon as I see a piezo I know that price was a
far bigger consideration for the system as a whole than performance, and
immediately look elsewhere.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
...
> For acoustic guitar, a good 10" speaker without a tweeter can sound very
> nice.

Depends heavily on the 10" driver. Something like the old JBL E110 could do
a fair job, some others are lucky to go past 2kHz.

Trevor.

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff > wrote:
>On 1/01/2014 7:26 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>>
>> I agree that a good way to start would be to put a coaxial driver in, if
>> only because so much of the engineering has already been done for you and
>> there is less to screw up.
>
>Funny you should say that. I have a 10" Tannoy hifi driver lying around
>that I have been considering building a portable 'acoustic' amp combo
>box to house, just so it's not wasted.

Some of the older dual-concentric Tannoy drivers are worth a lot of money
on the used market... put them up on Ebay and see what happens.

The newer ones tend to be less fragile, but the older ones are still pretty
rugged.

>Actually I have two of them (the problem is a 1.5dB mismatch in tweeter
>sensitivity), but two coaxial drivers/tweeters in one box would create
>more problems than any benefit I guess....

It would, indeed. BUT, Tannoy may have rediaphragm kits for them, depending
on how old they are.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Neil Gould > wrote:
>Trevor wrote:
>> "Neil Gould" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> For acoustic guitar, a good 10" speaker without a tweeter can sound
>>> very nice.
>>
>> Depends heavily on the 10" driver. Something like the old JBL E110
>> could do a fair job, some others are lucky to go past 2kHz.
>>
>MI speakers are typically better than that. I have no problem getting beyond
>2kHz with the 12" speakers in any of my MI amps, and not all of them are
>top-end EVs or JBLs. The 10" MI speakers that I've used easily equal the top
>end of the 12"s while falling short of the low end, so the overall rendition
>of an acoustic guitar may be more than acceptable to the OP.

Unfortunately those speakers may have good response at 2 Khz on-axis, but
get 15 degrees off the center and it's not so good, even when whizzer cone
technology is being employed. This is actually an advantage for some
instrument applications, but not so great for filling a large room with
uniform sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Neil Gould]

Trevor wrote:
> "Neil Gould" > wrote in message
> ...
>> For acoustic guitar, a good 10" speaker without a tweeter can sound
>> very nice.
>
> Depends heavily on the 10" driver. Something like the old JBL E110
> could do a fair job, some others are lucky to go past 2kHz.
>
MI speakers are typically better than that. I have no problem getting beyond
2kHz with the 12" speakers in any of my MI amps, and not all of them are
top-end EVs or JBLs. The 10" MI speakers that I've used easily equal the top
end of the 12"s while falling short of the low end, so the overall rendition
of an acoustic guitar may be more than acceptable to the OP.
--
best regards,

Neil

[Neil Gould]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Neil Gould > wrote:
>> Trevor wrote:
>>> "Neil Gould" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> For acoustic guitar, a good 10" speaker without a tweeter can
>>>> sound very nice.
>>>
>>> Depends heavily on the 10" driver. Something like the old JBL E110
>>> could do a fair job, some others are lucky to go past 2kHz.
>>>
>> MI speakers are typically better than that. I have no problem
>> getting beyond 2kHz with the 12" speakers in any of my MI amps, and
>> not all of them are top-end EVs or JBLs. The 10" MI speakers that
>> I've used easily equal the top end of the 12"s while falling short
>> of the low end, so the overall rendition of an acoustic guitar may
>> be more than acceptable to the OP.
>
> Unfortunately those speakers may have good response at 2 Khz on-axis,
> but get 15 degrees off the center and it's not so good, even when
> whizzer cone technology is being employed. This is actually an
> advantage for some instrument applications, but not so great for
> filling a large room with uniform sound.
>
There is a difference between music generation and music reproduction. I
wouldn't recommend a Marshall stack as a replacement for anyone's hi fi
setup even though one can get better than a 2k response at a volume level
where being off-axis may actually be preferable. ;-)

Nate wanted something that sounded good when amplifying his acoustic guitar.
There are a number of MI amps with 10" speakers that will do a good job of
that, some specifically made for amplifying acoustic guitar. So, it may be
that his current box could be made suitable with minimal effort and cost.
--
best regards,

Neil

[geoff]

On 3/01/2014 4:01 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
..
>
> Some of the older dual-concentric Tannoy drivers are worth a lot of money
> on the used market... put them up on Ebay and see what happens.

Naa - these are recent ones (2-3 years).

geoff

[Chuck[_10_]]

On 1 Jan 2014 08:14:59 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>hank alrich > wrote:
>>Neil Gould > wrote:
>>
>>> From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the tweeter (I
>>> agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not optimal for your
>>> acoustic guitar.
>>
>>Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
>>sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?
>
>The Dhalquist DQ10 got remarkably good sound out of a piezo tweeter, but
>it also wasn't anything like the the ordinary Motorola ones. And also..
>it still was a little peaky.
>
>>Crudely stated, but not kidding. Maybe Nate's cab needs a crossover and
>>decent tweeter?
>
>Yes, it certainly does. But what ELSE does it need? My sneaking suspicion
>is that the harder you look, the more things you'll find need replacing, and
>after a while you'll have replaced everything...
>--scott


The piezo tweeter was crossed over at a much higher frequency than
usual . (Above 10khz) Unlike other speakers with piezos back then,
the tweeter was really crossed over. (There was an 8 ohm resistor
across the tweeter along with a bipolar cap in series with it.) This
eliminated the splatter sound caused by lower frequencies reaching the
tweeter. Chuck

[Chuck[_10_]]

On 1 Jan 2014 08:14:59 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>hank alrich > wrote:
>>Neil Gould > wrote:
>>
>>> From your description, it seems that the crossover point for the tweeter (I
>>> agree with Pete that it looks like a Piezo) is not optimal for your
>>> acoustic guitar.
>>
>>Has any outfit but Meyer Sound Labs ever offered something piezo that
>>sounded other than akin to fried cat ****?
>
>The Dhalquist DQ10 got remarkably good sound out of a piezo tweeter, but
>it also wasn't anything like the the ordinary Motorola ones. And also..
>it still was a little peaky.
>
>>Crudely stated, but not kidding. Maybe Nate's cab needs a crossover and
>>decent tweeter?
>
>Yes, it certainly does. But what ELSE does it need? My sneaking suspicion
>is that the harder you look, the more things you'll find need replacing, and
>after a while you'll have replaced everything...
>--scott


The tweeter was crossed over at above 10 khz, unlike other piezo
tweeters of the time which weren't crossed over at all, or, if they
had a series capacitor with the tweeter, the manufactures left out the
8 ohm resistor across the tweeter. The diminuation of lower
frequencies to the tweeter eliminated the infamous piezo tweeter
splatter. Chuck

[gareth magennis]

"Nate Najar" wrote in message
...

I mean the drivers themselves.

I have a speaker cabinet made by a small, 2 man shop. This speaker is
intended as an instrument speaker. It is an "expended range" model meaning
it has a woofer and a tweeter with an L-pad to adjust the tweeter. For many
uses it sounds just fine. The cabinet itself is really nicely made and very
durable, but for acoustic guitar, my main use, it doesn't sound very good.
It sounds excellent with archtop guitar, which is its intended use. I don't
want to mention the brand because I don't want to put any negative words
about them on the internet.

This cab has a 10" woofer (presumably an eminence delta lite) and a tweeter,
connected to an L pad. I need to take it apart and see what the tweeter is-
it looks like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg

So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is boomy.
This is with an acoustic guitar. Who makes good third party drivers and
what would I want to achieve a reasonable full range reproduction? I want
smooth, clean sound. I don't need to push too much air, it is for modest
volume levels. Any thoughts? Abandon the tweeter and put in a dual
concentric? something else?

thanks!





That's not a Piezo, its an Eminence APT80.


http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=EMIAPT80&gclid=CJOUzoH9prwCFQ3ItAod5VwAuA




Gareth.

[gareth magennis]

> > the tweeter is- it looks like this:
>
>
>
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/boqiy6l5v1wj5c8/RS-10ER.jpg
>
> >
>
> > So the hi end is very crispy, harsh and distorted and the midrange is
>
> > boomy. This is with an acoustic guitar.
>
>
>
> I think it is a piezo unit.





That is not a Piezo, it is an Eminence APT80.


http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=EMIAPT80&gclid=CJOUzoH9prwCFQ3ItAod5VwAuA



Gareth.

[gareth magennis]

Double post.

Again.



My God, Windows Live Mail is just crap.


Gareth.

[Scott Dorsey]

Chuck > wrote:
>
>The piezo tweeter was crossed over at a much higher frequency than
>usual . (Above 10khz) Unlike other speakers with piezos back then,
>the tweeter was really crossed over. (There was an 8 ohm resistor
>across the tweeter along with a bipolar cap in series with it.) This
>eliminated the splatter sound caused by lower frequencies reaching the
>tweeter. Chuck

There's a voice from the past. Welcome back!
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."