Old faithful

[[email protected]]

In these times of turmoil in much of society one can always count on a
source of sanity and continued sound, yup; a pun, information. Check out
this page and find in it the inner confidence that something remains the
same:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-transform-bose-wave-radio

[Walt]

On 10/14/2013 6:01 PM, wrote:
> In these times of turmoil in much of society one can always count on a
> source of sanity and continued sound, yup; a pun, information. Check out
> this page and find in it the inner confidence that something remains the
> same:
>
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-transform-bose-wave-radio
>

Are you sure that's not The Onion?



--
//Walt

[[email protected]]

>On 10/14/2013 6:01 PM, wrote:
>> In these times of turmoil in much of society one can always count on a
>> source of sanity and continued sound, yup; a pun, information. Check out
>> this page and find in it the inner confidence that something remains the
>> same:
>>
>> http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-transform-bose-wave-radio
>>
>
>Are you sure that's not The Onion?
>
>--
>//Walt

Yuh, who woulda thunk. But that is only an interesting tidbit. The real
comfort comes from seeing what they do to that gear in the article. Its a
kind of before and after test. Pure stereophile at its best. It makes one
all warm and fuzzy inside.

[Greg Wormald]

In article >,
wrote:

> http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-
> transform-bose-wave-radio

Hmmm,

Linn has maintained for many years that *any* unpowered speakers in the
room has an effect on the sound--usually negative. Although I suppose if
the unpowered speakers were better than the powered ones the effect
could be positive.

If those little, cheap speakers ($1200 worth!) helped the Bose, what
would that say about the powered speakers on the Bose? And what would
$1200 worth of powered speakers do?

Greg

[news]

> wrote in message
...
> >On 10/14/2013 6:01 PM, wrote:
>>> In these times of turmoil in much of society one can always count on a
>>> source of sanity and continued sound, yup; a pun, information. Check
>>> out
>>> this page and find in it the inner confidence that something remains the
>>> same:
>>>
>>> http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-transform-bose-wave-radio
>>>
>>
>>Are you sure that's not The Onion?
>>
>>--
>>//Walt
>
> Yuh, who woulda thunk. But that is only an interesting tidbit. The real
> comfort comes from seeing what they do to that gear in the article. Its a
> kind of before and after test. Pure stereophile at its best. It makes
> one
> all warm and fuzzy inside.

So what happens if you put them around in a concert hall?

Gary Eickmeier

[Walt]

On 10/16/2013 6:10 AM, Greg Wormald wrote:
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-
>> transform-bose-wave-radio
>
> Hmmm,
>
> Linn has maintained for many years that *any* unpowered speakers in the
> room has an effect on the sound--usually negative.

And there's a lot to that. An unpowered speaker is a passive radiator
that will vibrate in response to the sound field and re-radiate acoustic
energy thereby changing how things sound. It's just like the
sympathetic strings on a sitar or a hardanger fiddle.

Whether the effect is "better" or not is a matter of taste, but in
general engineers do not design speakers to be played in a room with
some unknown passive radiator so the smart way to bet is that it's not
an improvement.


At your typical big-box retail showroom where you might have 100 or more
passive radiators it's impossible to tell what a speaker might actually
sound like. Speakers that are bass deficient will be helped along by
all the passive radiators and resonating cabinets, while those with a
'proper' amount of bass will tend to sound muddy. I have a suspicion
that manufacturers of 'budget' systems take this into account at the
design phase.



> Although I suppose if
> the unpowered speakers were better than the powered ones the effect
> could be positive.

Yeah, but in that case it would probably sound even better if the good
ones were powered and the lousy ones binned.



--
//Walt

[Bob Lombard[_3_]]

On 10/16/2013 1:24 PM, ScottW wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:58:25 AM UTC-7, Walt wrote:
>> On 10/16/2013 6:10 AM, Greg Wormald wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And there's a lot to that. An unpowered speaker is a passive radiator
>> that will vibrate in response to the sound field and re-radiate acoustic
>> energy thereby changing how things sound. It's just like the
>> sympathetic strings on a sitar or a hardanger fiddle.
> I would really like see a report that shows this vibration is of sufficient energy to actually produce an audible sound at the listening position.
>
> And what is the reason that a "powered" speaker won't vibrate as well?
> What about other drivers in a multi-driver system? Aren't they stimulated to vibrate as well?
>
> Frankly...you might be able to get a little resonance...but if it's undamped to the point of producing audible sound from the sound field of another speaker...that speakers going to be a mess when powered.
>
> ScottW
>
>
I actually get the opposite impression - that the unpowered speaker
absorbs some of the sound energy. Maybe returns a lower energy wave out
of phase; cancelling? But then what do I know?

bl

[Scott[_6_]]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:58:25 AM UTC-7, Walt wrote:
> On 10/16/2013 6:10 AM, Greg Wormald wrote:
>
> > In article >,
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-
>
> >> transform-bose-wave-radio
>
> >
>
> > Hmmm,
>
> >
>
> > Linn has maintained for many years that *any* unpowered speakers in the
>
> > room has an effect on the sound--usually negative.
>
>
>
> And there's a lot to that. An unpowered speaker is a passive radiator
>
> that will vibrate in response to the sound field and re-radiate acoustic
>
> energy thereby changing how things sound. It's just like the
>
> sympathetic strings on a sitar or a hardanger fiddle.
>
>
>
> Whether the effect is "better" or not is a matter of taste, but in
>
> general engineers do not design speakers to be played in a room with
>
> some unknown passive radiator so the smart way to bet is that it's not
>
> an improvement.
>
>
>
>
>
> At your typical big-box retail showroom where you might have 100 or more
>
> passive radiators it's impossible to tell what a speaker might actually
>
> sound like. Speakers that are bass deficient will be helped along by
>
> all the passive radiators and resonating cabinets, while those with a
>
> 'proper' amount of bass will tend to sound muddy. I have a suspicion
>
> that manufacturers of 'budget' systems take this into account at the
>
> design phase.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Although I suppose if
>
> > the unpowered speakers were better than the powered ones the effect
>
> > could be positive.
>
>
>
> Yeah, but in that case it would probably sound even better if the good
>
> ones were powered and the lousy ones binned.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> //Walt

Everything in a room affects the acoustics of the room. Speakers in the room actually don't have a particularly big effect. If the drivers are absorbing acoustic energy it's probably a good thing if it's audible at all.

[Walt]

On 10/16/2013 1:24 PM, ScottW wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:58:25 AM UTC-7, Walt wrote:

>> And there's a lot to that. An unpowered speaker is a passive radiator
>> that will vibrate in response to the sound field and re-radiate acoustic
>> energy thereby changing how things sound. It's just like the
>> sympathetic strings on a sitar or a hardanger fiddle.
>
> I would really like see a report that shows this vibration is of sufficient energy to actually produce an audible sound at the listening position.

>
> And what is the reason that a "powered" speaker won't vibrate as well?
> What about other drivers in a multi-driver system? Aren't they stimulated to vibrate as well?
>
> Frankly...you might be able to get a little resonance...but if it's undamped to the point of producing audible sound from the sound field of another speaker...that speakers going to be a mess when powered.

Unfortunately, I am unaware of any technical study that quantitatively
demonstrates this. But a speaker cabinet is basically a resonating
chamber and will vibrate sympathetically. The question is whether the
effect is strong enough to be noticeable. For a single pair of unpowered
extraneous speakers, maybe not. For a wall full of them, most likely.

And if the unpowered speakers are one of those highly resonant "one note
bass" monstrosities one pair is likely to be enough. Agree with your
comment about them being "a mess" when powered up. (c:

By way of analogy, if you play, say, a snare drum in a room with a piano
in it, the sound will be colored by the vibrations from the piano. If
someone presses down on the loud pedal, you will definitely hear the
effect. Why would speakers be immune from this basic physical phenomenon?

--
//Walt

[Walt]

On 10/16/2013 9:25 AM, news wrote:

>
> So what happens if you put them around in a concert hall?

People steal them. Those little aluminum discs are worth fifty bucks a pop!

//Walt

[Bill Taylor[_3_]]

On 16 Oct 2013 19:35:23 GMT, Walt > wrote:

>On 10/16/2013 1:24 PM, ScottW wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:58:25 AM UTC-7, Walt wrote:
>
>>> And there's a lot to that. An unpowered speaker is a passive radiator
>>> that will vibrate in response to the sound field and re-radiate acoustic
>>> energy thereby changing how things sound. It's just like the
>>> sympathetic strings on a sitar or a hardanger fiddle.
>>
>> I would really like see a report that shows this vibration is of sufficient energy to actually produce an audible sound at the listening position.
>
>>
>> And what is the reason that a "powered" speaker won't vibrate as well?
>> What about other drivers in a multi-driver system? Aren't they stimulated to vibrate as well?
>>
>> Frankly...you might be able to get a little resonance...but if it's undamped to the point of producing audible sound from the sound field of another speaker...that speakers going to be a mess when powered.
>
>Unfortunately, I am unaware of any technical study that quantitatively
>demonstrates this. But a speaker cabinet is basically a resonating
>chamber and will vibrate sympathetically. The question is whether the
>effect is strong enough to be noticeable. For a single pair of unpowered
>extraneous speakers, maybe not. For a wall full of them, most likely.
>
>And if the unpowered speakers are one of those highly resonant "one note
>bass" monstrosities one pair is likely to be enough. Agree with your
>comment about them being "a mess" when powered up. (c:
>
>By way of analogy, if you play, say, a snare drum in a room with a piano
>in it, the sound will be colored by the vibrations from the piano. If
>someone presses down on the loud pedal, you will definitely hear the
>effect. Why would speakers be immune from this basic physical phenomenon?

A piano has hundreds of undamped resonators (strings) that are easy to
excite.

A (decent) loudspeaker has one or two low q resonances at low
frequencies that are hard to excite. A loudspeaker has much the same
effect on acoustics as the same size box without drive units.

A certain Scottish manufacturer came up with this nonsense to justify
single speaker demos so you couldn't directly compare the competition
and hear just how bad their speakers were.

[news]

"Walt" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/16/2013 9:25 AM, news wrote:
>
>>
>> So what happens if you put them around in a concert hall?
>
> People steal them. Those little aluminum discs are worth fifty bucks a
> pop!

Not to me they're not!

Gary Eickmeier

[Arny Krueger[_5_]]

"Greg Wormald" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-
>> transform-bose-wave-radio
>
> Hmmm,
>
> Linn has maintained for many years that *any* unpowered speakers in the
> room has an effect on the sound--usually negative. Although I suppose if
> the unpowered speakers were better than the powered ones the effect
> could be positive.

Linn's claims of this nature have been put to the blind test and found a bit
lacking:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

"
The day began with two brief tests of the Tiefenbrun claim that undriven
transducers (digital alarm watches, telephones, headphones, or other
loudspeakers) in the same room audibly degrade the sound quality - a claim
which forms the rationale behind their "single speaker" demonstration
demand. Firstly, a digital alarm watch with piezoelectric "beeper" was held
about 500 mm behind Tiefenbrun's head while he listened to the loudspeaker
reproduction from his stereo seat on the couch, with the watch either fully
exposed or clasped firmly between the palms of my hands. We were assured
that the latter artifice would muffle any deleterious effects. This was thus
a single-blind test: The testee did not know the covered/uncovered status of
the watch at each trial, but the tester did know. A random series of 20
trials was conducted while Remington cued up the turntable (playing a female
vocalist) on each occasion, as he did throughout the day. Tiefenbrun's
result: 10 correct responses in 20 trials, an outcome which shows no ability
to discriminate between the two situations.
The second test, also single-blind, used a Linn "Kan" loudspeaker as the
undriven transducer. Again the female vocalist was used as source material.
The loudspeaker lay on the thickly-carpeted floor behind the listening
couch. It was placed either on its side (the "uncovered" condition) or on
its face (the "covered" condition) according to a random series of choices.
Ten trials were conducted during which Tiefenbrun achieved a score of 5
correct out of 10. Again, this demonstrates no discrimination ability beyond
what one would expect purely on the basis of chance.

"



Key phrases: "demonstrates no discrimination ability beyond what one would
expect purely on the basis of chance."


> If those little, cheap speakers ($1200 worth!) helped the Bose, what
> would that say about the powered speakers on the Bose? And what would
> $1200 worth of powered speakers do?

Look like expectation bias generators to me! ;-)