My Adventure in Videoing a Band

[Gary Eickmeier]

Imagine the hapless videographer trying to tape a band during a dance.

The sound needs to be good because it was the band that hired us for a demo
of what they can do. The visual problems are obvious, needing to see above
the heads of the dancers so I can see the band on stage. Less obvious is the
lighting, which there was little of, and it was mostly backlighing.

But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound, and have
recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified bands, but I have been
around the block recording audio.

The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up front to get
the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain when the big
stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near where I would like to
be. In my experience what this does is cause the AGC to go nuts from the
bass frequencies because all of the speakers are facing away from the
recorder, and the bass is most of what it hears, and all I get is whump
whump whump. So that is out, and I place the recorder back further where it
is safe, but that ends up in the same spot as the video camera, which is
high up on a tripod about 40 ft back.

No way to hang the recorder from the ceiling, without a 30 ft stepladder
(and a volunteer).

Only other aid will be the sound board recorder, Tascam DR-07 with line
input set to AGC. HOWEVER, this concept depends heavily on the sound mixer
doing his thing right so that I get at least an approximation of all of the
instruments. On first testing, it seems that I am missing some of them,
because they have their own amp and speaker right next to them and don't
need to go into the board. I mention to the sound guy (just one of the
musicians) that the kick drum is WHACKing its authority a little too loudly,
and that is all I am hearing right now. He knocks it down a little. A
listener guy stands out in front of the speakers to tell the band how they
sound, and he says fine, but again it is hard to tell where the various
sounds are coming from. Some are from the speaker system and some are not.
Ah well, I have my camera sound from out front if nothing else works.

So back in the studio I download all tracks, the video camera track, the
Zoom, and the sound board. I sync them up and give a listen to who is doing
what to who. The video sound is all floompy and not real distinct. The sound
board is thin but has most of the instruments and does pick up the two
vocalists very distinctly, so all is not lost.

I adjust the gains to the various tracks and balance the vocalists with the
bass of the video track and it seems to come together on my modest video
monitoring speakers to a point where I won't be embarrassed to call the
client in for a look see.

The lack of control in a live situation is very frustrating. Both the
lighting and the sound, the obvious important elements in a VIDEO of a BAND
performing were completely out of my intimate control to the point that I
might reconsider taking on such a thing in the future without some sort of
pre-arrangement.

You have any similar tales? Live amplified band recording has to be the most
difficult job anywhere.

Gary Eickmeier

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/2/2013 11:16 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> You have any similar tales? Live amplified band recording has to be the most
> difficult job anywhere.

You really need to make an independent recording mix, and you will
almost certainly need to put up some mics on the amplifiers and maybe a
DI for the bass that don't get used in the house or monitors.

One of those new fangled digity-tall consoles mated with a computer is
ideal for this as long as you have enough channels to cover both the
house engineer's mics and your auxiliary mics. You can record everything
that comes out of a mic on its own track and the mix it when you get home.

Next best is to do a live mix (which will include your auxiliary mics)
using auxiliary sends to the recorder. Unless you have stereo aux sends
(not very common in budget priced analog mixers, but often availabie in
cheap digital mixers if you push the right buttons) you'll have to
settle for a mono mix, but there's no harm in that.

Or you can just hang a stereo mic where you get a good room sound and pray.

At least you recognized the shortcomings, but getting around them isn't
always simple or cheap.

--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[John Williamson]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up front to get
> the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain when the big
> stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near where I would like to
> be. In my experience what this does is cause the AGC to go nuts from the
> bass frequencies because all of the speakers are facing away from the
> recorder, and the bass is most of what it hears, and all I get is whump
> whump whump. So that is out, and I place the recorder back further where it
> is safe, but that ends up in the same spot as the video camera, which is
> high up on a tripod about 40 ft back.
>
Set the H2 to a conservative fixed gain setting, and use the built in
limiter. You could also try hanging the H2 above the stage, if you can
find a sensible spot during your sound check.

> You have any similar tales? Live amplified band recording has to be the most
> difficult job anywhere.
>
Which I why I use a portable multitrack recorder and mic everything up
myself, using, if permitted, splitters on the vocal mics. A Zoom R24
will give you 8 mic capable tracks with 6 phantom power points, and can
be slaved to another R24 or R16 to give 16 available tracks. The preamps
aren't the best, but the results are surprisingly good on the choir and
60s band that I've used it on so far.

Quality or convenience?
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Gary Eickmeier]

John Williamson wrote:
> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up front
>> to get the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain
>> when the big stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near
>> where I would like to be. In my experience what this does is cause
>> the AGC to go nuts from the bass frequencies because all of the
>> speakers are facing away from the recorder, and the bass is most of
>> what it hears, and all I get is whump whump whump. So that is out,
>> and I place the recorder back further where it is safe, but that
>> ends up in the same spot as the video camera, which is high up on a
>> tripod about 40 ft back.
> Set the H2 to a conservative fixed gain setting, and use the built in
> limiter. You could also try hanging the H2 above the stage, if you can
> find a sensible spot during your sound check.
>
>> You have any similar tales? Live amplified band recording has to be
>> the most difficult job anywhere.
>>
> Which I why I use a portable multitrack recorder and mic everything up
> myself, using, if permitted, splitters on the vocal mics. A Zoom R24
> will give you 8 mic capable tracks with 6 phantom power points, and
> can be slaved to another R24 or R16 to give 16 available tracks. The
> preamps aren't the best, but the results are surprisingly good on the
> choir and 60s band that I've used it on so far.
>
> Quality or convenience?

Thanks to you both. I know that if it were a sound recording gig the
professional way would be to bring my own multi-mikes and see if I can place
them without getting in the way if they still need their own amplified
system. But this was just a video shoot and I didn't want to get in their
way or interfere when they were setting up.

I do have a Zoom R16 that can do 8 channels at once, two of them powered. I
have but three good microphones, and a few cheap Sony lavalier mikes that
would work with a job like this. If I could get up there and hang a stereo
pair, that would be lovely, but I don't know how they do it without a fire
department lift.

I wonder if you could use whatever mikes they do have set up for their
sound, then add as many of your own to that going to your own recorder along
with the board mix - if you had enough line, wouldn't get in the way, and
knew where everyone was going to stand!

This was certainly not a high enough paying job for all that, but I suppose
the really correct way would be to have a real recording engineer with
proper equipment and knowledge work along with you. I would also bring a
couple of spot lights that I could supplement the available light with, if I
could concentrate on the video side. For this job I used the main camera on
tripod catching everything that happened, plus a roving camera that could
catch angles and close-ups. And some fancy moving camera stuff.

Gary Eickmeier

[PStamler]

On Monday, September 2, 2013 10:16:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> You have any similar tales? Live amplified band recording has to be the most
> difficult job anywhere.

It is difficult, for many of the reasons you discovered in your baptism by fire. If it's any comfort, live opera is worse, because you have to place your mics out of sight of the audience.

You said, "But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound, and have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified bands, but I have been
around the block recording audio."

That means you haven't been around the block; you've just walked in front of a few buildings. You're discovering a whole 'nother level of complexity.

And, by the way, if you're recording things with the AGC turned on, you're going to get crappy recordings. Every time.

Peace,
Paul

[[email protected]]

> And, by the way, if you're recording things with the AGC turned on, you're going to get crappy recordings. Every time.
>
>
I will add this...
don't even try to do a live mix for recording unless you have high isolation head phones or a separated room. Your best bet is to multi-track as many separate tracks as you can manage and mix them back home. Make sure you get good recordings of the vocals and one or two tracks for audience room sound comes in handy too.
Mark

[Gary Eickmeier]

PStamler wrote:
> On Monday, September 2, 2013 10:16:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>


> You said, "But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I
> KNOW sound, and have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not
> amplified bands, but I have been
> around the block recording audio."

Tongue in cheek.

>
> That means you haven't been around the block; you've just walked in
> front of a few buildings. You're discovering a whole 'nother level of
> complexity.

Yes!

> And, by the way, if you're recording things with the AGC turned on,
> you're going to get crappy recordings. Every time.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

Wel-l-l-l - my excuse is that there is hardly any sound check, I can't
depend on their levels staying the same, and when doing a video shoot I
can't monitor the gain on my remote recorders. The AGC on the Zoom and also
on the Tascam are very gentle on their action, and never record too high,
usually a little lower than expected. For my jobs, better to get acceptable,
workable audio than leave it to chance. I HAVE obtained some excellent
recordings this way. Except when some moron seated near the recorder does
some POP clapping instead of normal applause.

Gary Eickmeier

[PStamler]

On Monday, September 2, 2013 9:43:03 PM UTC-5, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> PStamler wrote:
>
> > On Monday, September 2, 2013 10:16:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> > You said, "But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I
>
> > KNOW sound, and have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not
>
> > amplified bands, but I have been
>
> > around the block recording audio."
>
>
>
> Tongue in cheek.
>
>
>
> >
>
> > That means you haven't been around the block; you've just walked in
>
> > front of a few buildings. You're discovering a whole 'nother level of
>
> > complexity.
>
>
>
> Yes!
>
>
>
> > And, by the way, if you're recording things with the AGC turned on,
>
> > you're going to get crappy recordings. Every time.
>
> >
>
> > Peace,
>
> > Paul
>
>
>
> Wel-l-l-l - my excuse is that there is hardly any sound check, I can't
>
> depend on their levels staying the same, and when doing a video shoot I
>
> can't monitor the gain on my remote recorders.

As another poster remarked, this gig needs 2 people -- one on camera, one recording audio onto multitrack (without AGC) to mix down later.

Peace,
Paul

[John Williamson]

PStamler wrote:
> And, by the way, if you're recording things with the AGC turned on, you're going to get crappy recordings. Every time.
>
+1.
The H2 has a very versatile system for setting levels, ranging from
simple preset gain adjustment to AGC to a nice limiter/ compressor. Just
don't try adjusting or moving it while it's recording anything that's
wanted as they are *very* sensitive to contact and stand-borne noise.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/2/2013 3:54 PM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> I wonder if you could use whatever mikes they do have set up for their
> sound, then add as many of your own to that going to your own recorder along
> with the board mix - if you had enough line, wouldn't get in the way, and
> knew where everyone was going to stand!

Sure. This is done all the time. The best way to do this is to split the
mics at the stage and do a separate mix from the PA. But if you can get
a reasonable mix from the PA that's missing a few things, you can add
that in to a stereo mix through a mixer of your own.

Yes, it's always better to have enough money in the budget to pay for
whatever you need, whether it's more gear or a more experienced recordist.


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Gary Eickmeier]

John Williamson wrote:
> PStamler wrote:
>> And, by the way, if you're recording things with the AGC turned on,
>> you're going to get crappy recordings. Every time.
> +1.
> The H2 has a very versatile system for setting levels, ranging from
> simple preset gain adjustment to AGC to a nice limiter/ compressor.
> Just don't try adjusting or moving it while it's recording anything
> that's wanted as they are *very* sensitive to contact and stand-borne
> noise.

You said an earful! I put one on the stage one fine time, on its mike stand,
and the footfalls and thumping around were horrendous! I couldn't believe
it. No more on the same stage as the performers!

Gary Eickmeier

[Gary Eickmeier]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:
> Imagine the hapless videographer trying to tape a band during a dance.

Well, the crazy thing turned out great! The board feed was what saved it.
Actually, if you think about it, that should be the best source for a live
recording. Their mikes that they are playing to are the first source of the
sound that they want us to hear. Of course, this applies only if they are
feeding all instruments to the board. And I don't think it was a stereo
mix - they have neither the time nor the patience for that.

What we need to do is mike the event for them, and then let them have the
feed for their PA system, not the other way around. That way we could do a
multichannel recording or a live mix in stereo. I don't have a mixer big
enough, nor enough mikes, but just thinking the job through.

Gary Eickmeier

[James Perrett]

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 03:06:14 +0100, Gary Eickmeier
> wrote:

> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>> Imagine the hapless videographer trying to tape a band during a dance.
>
> Well, the crazy thing turned out great! The board feed was what saved it.

In my experience, a stereo mix from the mixing desk and a pair of well
sited mics will give surprisingly good results. You would need the mics
anyway to give you the audience applause and ambience between songs but
they also pick up anything that was too loud to go through the PA during
the songs too.

One other compromise if you are limited to a certain number of tracks is
to use sub-groups on the mixing desk and record each subgroup on a
separate track.

James.

--
http://www.jrpmusic.net

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier > wrote:

> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up front to get
> the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain when the big
> stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near where I would like to
> be. In my experience what this does is cause the AGC to go nuts from the
> bass frequencies because all of the speakers are facing away from the
> recorder, and the bass is most of what it hears, and all I get is whump
> whump whump.

That's what you get for setting levels where you did. In 24 bit mode
there is substantial headroom at hand.

You should never be triggering that AGC circuit, and in fact, it should
be disabled in preference settings.

AGC is post conversion. Hence, excessive SPL + unfortunately high input
sensitivity settings = compressed garbage.

> But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound, and >
> have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified bands, but I have
> been around the block recording audio.

Hype, brother. You are a beginner, filled with theoretical concepts,
outputting long posts about what went wrong, again. Accept this and
learning begins. The biggest guru of all is humility.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Gary Eickmeier]

Jeff Henig wrote:
> This:
>
> hank alrich > wrote:
>>
>> The biggest guru of all is humility.
>
> +1
>
> One of the most profound statements you've ever made--and you've made
> a few profound ones.

Yes, well, he could exercise a little of his own advice by reading the whole
thread and learning about sarcasm. The main giveaway in my paragraph that he
is taking me to task on is the "er." That is the equivalent of "LOL," which
is an indication of a tongue in cheek statement.

I do NOT lack humility - in fact, I am the most humble person on the planet.

Gary Eickmeier

[Gary Eickmeier]

Jeff Henig wrote:
> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote:
>
>> I do NOT lack humility - in fact, I am the most humble person on the
>> planet.
>>
>> Gary Eickmeier
>
> LOL
>
> Nice.

He GOT it! He GOT it...

Didn't he?

Gary

[PStamler]

On Saturday, September 7, 2013 7:43:22 PM UTC-5, Jeff Henig wrote:

> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in Exodus
>
> that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made it so funny
>
> was that Moses is the author of that book. Pretty sure he was jabbing at
>
> himself and having a giggle at his own expense.

Most Bible scholars believe that it was not written by Moses, but by people living after his time and edited together by a single person, usually called the "redactor". There are disagreements about which parts were written by whom, and who the redactor was.

Check out the book "Who Wrote the Bible?" It's a good read.

The "most humble man" line is still a good joke.

Peace,
Paul

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 19:51:30 -0700 (PDT), PStamler >
wrote:

>On Saturday, September 7, 2013 7:43:22 PM UTC-5, Jeff Henig wrote:
>
>> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in Exodus
>>
>> that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made it so funny
>>
>> was that Moses is the author of that book. Pretty sure he was jabbing at
>>
>> himself and having a giggle at his own expense.
>
>Most Bible scholars believe that it was not written by Moses, but by people living after his time and edited together by a single person, usually called the "redactor". There are disagreements about which parts were written by whom, and who the redactor was.
>
>Check out the book "Who Wrote the Bible?" It's a good read.
>
>The "most humble man" line is still a good joke.
>

It's a bit like learned sages arguing over what colour dresses fairies
wear. Amusing but more revealing of them than the subject.

d

[Trevor]

"Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
...
> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in Exodus
> that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made it so funny
> was that Moses is the author of that book.

The Bible was not written by it's characters. Hell we don't know how many of
them even existed, let alone whether they could read or write!

Trevor.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 17:23:56 +1000, "Trevor" > wrote:

>
>"Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
...
>> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in Exodus
>> that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made it so funny
>> was that Moses is the author of that book.
>
>The Bible was not written by it's characters. Hell we don't know how many of
>them even existed, let alone whether they could read or write!
>
Assume none of them as a good starting point. Add them in as you find
actual evidence. So far we have a few Romans and the odd Egyptian.

d

[Gary Eickmeier]

Don Pearce wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 17:23:56 +1000, "Trevor" > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in
>>> Exodus that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made
>>> it so funny was that Moses is the author of that book.
>>
>> The Bible was not written by it's characters. Hell we don't know how
>> many of them even existed, let alone whether they could read or
>> write!
>>
> Assume none of them as a good starting point. Add them in as you find
> actual evidence. So far we have a few Romans and the odd Egyptian.

This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.

Gary Eickmeier

[PStamler]

On Sunday, September 8, 2013 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, Jeff Henig wrote:
> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote:
>
> > Don Pearce wrote:
>
> >> On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 17:23:56 +1000, "Trevor" > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> "Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
>
> >>> ...
>
> >>>> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in
>
> >>>> Exodus that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made
>
> >>>> it so funny was that Moses is the author of that book.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> The Bible was not written by it's characters. Hell we don't know how
>
> >>> many of them even existed, let alone whether they could read or
>
> >>> write!
>
> >>>
>
> >> Assume none of them as a good starting point. Add them in as you find
>
> >> actual evidence. So far we have a few Romans and the odd Egyptian.
>
> >
>
> > This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>
> > reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.
>
> >
>
> > Gary Eickmeier
>
>
>
> That's actually my bad. I forgot that nothing that casually references any
>
> fragment of religion can be mentioned in this group without it becoming a
>
> landing ramp for atheist soapboxes.


Mine wasn't meant as an atheist soapbox. I was raised an atheist, but underwent a conversion experience and now consider myself an agnostic.

Peace,
Paul

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 19:20:09 +0000 (UTC), Jeff Henig
> wrote:

>"Gary Eickmeier" > wrote:
>> Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 17:23:56 +1000, "Trevor" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in
>>>>> Exodus that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made
>>>>> it so funny was that Moses is the author of that book.
>>>>
>>>> The Bible was not written by it's characters. Hell we don't know how
>>>> many of them even existed, let alone whether they could read or
>>>> write!
>>>>
>>> Assume none of them as a good starting point. Add them in as you find
>>> actual evidence. So far we have a few Romans and the odd Egyptian.
>>
>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.
>>
>> Gary Eickmeier
>
>That's actually my bad. I forgot that nothing that casually references any
>fragment of religion can be mentioned in this group without it becoming a
>landing ramp for atheist soapboxes.
>
>I mean, seriously, people. Give it a rest. It was meant to be funny. It
>wasn't meant to be a friggin' scholarly talking point.

Yes, we understand. Only people who believe in the supernatural are
permitted to voice their views here. Anyone else is on a soapbox. We
get it.

d

[Scott Dorsey]

>"Gary Eickmeier" > wrote:
>>
>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.

There is a bluegrass song about this!

>That's actually my bad. I forgot that nothing that casually references any
>fragment of religion can be mentioned in this group without it becoming a
>landing ramp for atheist soapboxes.

Or even worse, clawhammer banjo players.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Gary Eickmeier]

Jeff Henig wrote:
> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote:
>> Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 17:23:56 +1000, "Trevor" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading
>>>>> in Exodus that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What
>>>>> made it so funny was that Moses is the author of that book.
>>>>
>>>> The Bible was not written by it's characters. Hell we don't know
>>>> how many of them even existed, let alone whether they could read or
>>>> write!
>>>>
>>> Assume none of them as a good starting point. Add them in as you
>>> find actual evidence. So far we have a few Romans and the odd
>>> Egyptian.
>>
>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.
>>
>> Gary Eickmeier
>
> That's actually my bad. I forgot that nothing that casually
> references any fragment of religion can be mentioned in this group
> without it becoming a landing ramp for atheist soapboxes.
>
> I mean, seriously, people. Give it a rest. It was meant to be funny.
> It wasn't meant to be a friggin' scholarly talking point.

Ronald Reagan: "Excuse me Mr. Speaker but I PAID for this microphone!"

Gary Eickmeier: "Excuse me Mr. Henig, but this is MY thread!"

Lighten up.

G

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

PStamler > wrote:
> On Sunday, September 8, 2013 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, Jeff Henig wrote:
>> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote:
>>
>>> Don Pearce wrote:
>>
>>>> On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 17:23:56 +1000, "Trevor" > wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> "Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
>>
>>>>> ...
>>
>>>>>> One of the funnier moments I ever had in Bible class was reading in
>>
>>>>>> Exodus that Moses was the most humble man who ever lived. What made
>>
>>>>>> it so funny was that Moses is the author of that book.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> The Bible was not written by it's characters. Hell we don't know how
>>
>>>>> many of them even existed, let alone whether they could read or
>>
>>>>> write!
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>> Assume none of them as a good starting point. Add them in as you find
>>
>>>> actual evidence. So far we have a few Romans and the odd Egyptian.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>>
>>> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Gary Eickmeier
>>
>>
>>
>> That's actually my bad. I forgot that nothing that casually references any
>>
>> fragment of religion can be mentioned in this group without it becoming a
>>
>> landing ramp for atheist soapboxes.
>
>
> Mine wasn't meant as an atheist soapbox. I was raised an atheist, but
> underwent a conversion experience and now consider myself an agnostic.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

Perhaps you'll be reincarnated and come back as a mild Anglican :-)

[Trevor]

"Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
...
> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.

Do you count the snake?

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
...
> The truly funny thing here is that some of those commenting on this would
> have left it alone if I made a reference to, say Hitchhikers' Guide To The
> Universe, and said Mr. Adams made a funny statement.

No, I would have said it was "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy", much funnier
than the Bible and possibly more factual :-)

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
...
> "Trevor" > wrote:
>> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>>> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.
>>
>> Do you count the snake?
>>
>
> You do if you're not going wireless.

Nah, use 6 cats (cat 6) instead :-)

Trevor.

[Gary Eickmeier]

Trevor wrote:
> "Jeff Henig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Trevor" > wrote:
>>> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how
>>>> many reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.
>>>
>>> Do you count the snake?
>>>
>>
>> You do if you're not going wireless.
>
> Nah, use 6 cats (cat 6) instead :-)
>
> Trevor.

Anyway, the client liked the video but he was more concerned about his
band's performance than the lighting or sound. Some of them were a little
off....

Gary Eickmeier

[Arny Krueger[_5_]]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Gary Eickmeier > wrote:
>
>> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up front to
>> get
>> the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain when the big
>> stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near where I would like
>> to
>> be. In my experience what this does is cause the AGC to go nuts from the
>> bass frequencies because all of the speakers are facing away from the
>> recorder, and the bass is most of what it hears, and all I get is whump
>> whump whump.
>
> That's what you get for setting levels where you did. In 24 bit mode
> there is substantial headroom at hand.
>
> You should never be triggering that AGC circuit, and in fact, it should
> be disabled in preference settings.
>
> AGC is post conversion. Hence, excessive SPL + unfortunately high input
> sensitivity settings = compressed garbage.
>
>> But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound, and >
>> have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified bands, but I have
>> been around the block recording audio.
>
> Hype, brother. You are a beginner, filled with theoretical concepts,
> outputting long posts about what went wrong, again. Accept this and
> learning begins. The biggest guru of all is humility.

Well said.

I admit it, I've been lectured more than once about out-smarting myself. ;-)

Ideally theory and practice are taught together in synch. Often way too
much theory gets learned first.

[PStamler]

As my Spiritual Master said, "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

Peace,
Paul

[Tobiah]

n indication of a tongue in cheek statement.
>
> I do NOT lack humility - in fact, I am the most humble person on the planet.
>
> Gary Eickmeier
>
>


I'm so humble I have a room just to hold the humble awards I've been
given. I always take guests to that room first to impress them.

Tobiah

[John Williamson]

Tobiah wrote:
> n indication of a tongue in cheek statement.
>>
>> I do NOT lack humility - in fact, I am the most humble person on the
>> planet.
>>
>> Gary Eickmeier
>>
>>
>
>
> I'm so humble I have a room just to hold the humble awards I've been
> given. I always take guests to that room first to impress them.
>
Ah, so you too have a downstairs toilet. :-)
(That's a bathroom if you're American.)

Yes, I know it's an old joke....
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Gary Eickmeier]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gary Eickmeier > wrote:
>>
>>> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up
>>> front to get
>>> the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain when
>>> the big stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near where
>>> I would like to
>>> be. In my experience what this does is cause the AGC to go nuts
>>> from the bass frequencies because all of the speakers are facing
>>> away from the recorder, and the bass is most of what it hears, and
>>> all I get is whump whump whump.
>>
>> That's what you get for setting levels where you did. In 24 bit mode
>> there is substantial headroom at hand.
>>
>> You should never be triggering that AGC circuit, and in fact, it
>> should be disabled in preference settings.
>>
>> AGC is post conversion. Hence, excessive SPL + unfortunately high
>> input sensitivity settings = compressed garbage.
>>
>>> But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound,
>>> and > have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified
>>> bands, but I have been around the block recording audio.
>>
>> Hype, brother. You are a beginner, filled with theoretical concepts,
>> outputting long posts about what went wrong, again. Accept this and
>> learning begins. The biggest guru of all is humility.
>
> Well said.
>
> I admit it, I've been lectured more than once about out-smarting
> myself. ;-)
> Ideally theory and practice are taught together in synch. Often way
> too much theory gets learned first.

Hi Arn - if you will read the whole thread, you might see that it was said
in jest.

Gary

[Arny Krueger[_5_]]

"Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
...
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Gary Eickmeier > wrote:
>>>
>>>> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up
>>>> front to get
>>>> the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain when
>>>> the big stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near where
>>>> I would like to
>>>> be. In my experience what this does is cause the AGC to go nuts
>>>> from the bass frequencies because all of the speakers are facing
>>>> away from the recorder, and the bass is most of what it hears, and
>>>> all I get is whump whump whump.
>>>
>>> That's what you get for setting levels where you did. In 24 bit mode
>>> there is substantial headroom at hand.
>>>
>>> You should never be triggering that AGC circuit, and in fact, it
>>> should be disabled in preference settings.
>>>
>>> AGC is post conversion. Hence, excessive SPL + unfortunately high
>>> input sensitivity settings = compressed garbage.
>>>
>>>> But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound,
>>>> and > have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified
>>>> bands, but I have been around the block recording audio.
>>>
>>> Hype, brother. You are a beginner, filled with theoretical concepts,
>>> outputting long posts about what went wrong, again. Accept this and
>>> learning begins. The biggest guru of all is humility.
>>
>> Well said.
>>
>> I admit it, I've been lectured more than once about out-smarting
>> myself. ;-)
>> Ideally theory and practice are taught together in synch. Often way
>> too much theory gets learned first.
>
> Hi Arn - if you will read the whole thread, you might see that it was said
> in jest.

In humor there is often truth, and you can quote me about that! ;-)

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger > wrote:

> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> Gary Eickmeier > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up
> >>>> front to get
> >>>> the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain when
> >>>> the big stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near where
> >>>> I would like to
> >>>> be. In my experience what this does is cause the AGC to go nuts
> >>>> from the bass frequencies because all of the speakers are facing
> >>>> away from the recorder, and the bass is most of what it hears, and
> >>>> all I get is whump whump whump.
> >>>
> >>> That's what you get for setting levels where you did. In 24 bit mode
> >>> there is substantial headroom at hand.
> >>>
> >>> You should never be triggering that AGC circuit, and in fact, it
> >>> should be disabled in preference settings.
> >>>
> >>> AGC is post conversion. Hence, excessive SPL + unfortunately high
> >>> input sensitivity settings = compressed garbage.
> >>>
> >>>> But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound,
> >>>> and > have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified
> >>>> bands, but I have been around the block recording audio.
> >>>
> >>> Hype, brother. You are a beginner, filled with theoretical concepts,
> >>> outputting long posts about what went wrong, again. Accept this and
> >>> learning begins. The biggest guru of all is humility.
> >>
> >> Well said.
> >>
> >> I admit it, I've been lectured more than once about out-smarting
> >> myself. ;-)
> >> Ideally theory and practice are taught together in synch. Often way
> >> too much theory gets learned first.
> >
> > Hi Arn - if you will read the whole thread, you might see that it was said
> > in jest.
>
> In humor there is often truth, and you can quote me about that! ;-)

+1 !

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> John Williamson wrote:
>> PStamler wrote:

>>> And, by the way, if you're recording things with the AGC turned on,
>>> you're going to get crappy recordings. Every time.

>> +1.
>> The H2 has a very versatile system for setting levels, ranging from
>> simple preset gain adjustment to AGC to a nice limiter/ compressor.
>> Just don't try adjusting or moving it while it's recording anything
>> that's wanted as they are *very* sensitive to contact and stand-borne
>> noise.

> You said an earful! I put one on the stage one fine time, on its mike
> stand, and the footfalls and thumping around were horrendous! I
> couldn't believe it. No more on the same stage as the performers!

Wrong contraption then. Also fixing thumps in post is simple, as long as it
reminds of anything that could happen on vinyl a vinyl-treatment plugin in
fix single click mode does wonders.

> Gary Eickmeier


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>> Imagine the hapless videographer trying to tape a band during a
>> dance.

> Well, the crazy thing turned out great! The board feed was what saved
> it. Actually, if you think about it, that should be the best source
> for a live recording.

No, the above stage mikes is.

> Their mikes that they are playing to are the
> first source of the sound that they want us to hear. Of course, this
> applies only if they are feeding all instruments to the board. And I
> don't think it was a stereo mix - they have neither the time nor the
> patience for that.

It doesn't take time to turn pan pots, it is about a stable image in the
room, but a wee bit of stereo can be done.

> What we need to do is mike the event for them,

No. The audience pays for the show and you do NOT want to be responsible for
causing feedback.

> and then let them have
> the feed for their PA system, not the other way around.

No, here is why: there will still be a show without a recording, but there
will not be a recording without a show.

> That way we
> could do a multichannel recording or a live mix in stereo.

Splitbox solves that. About now I reckon it has one CAT5E for FOH, one for
monitorland and one for you, in the old days it was a lot of iron. No matter
how, galvanic separation of systems is generally preferable. The best
sounding is a passive split, but not usbable for a 3 way splitting, I reckon
some still like the iron concept over the active concepts (analog or
digital) due to its vices being more pleasing to the ear.

> I don't
> have a mixer big enough, nor enough mikes, but just thinking the job
> through.

You need to be a skilled PA operator to mic up a live stage for PA.

> Gary Eickmeier

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Trevor wrote:

> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
> ...

>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.

> Do you count the snake?

Of course, there wouldn't be a show without it.

> Trevor.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> Imagine the hapless videographer trying to tape a band during a dance.

Ah yes. Will turn any remaining hair grey fast.

> The sound needs to be good because it was the band that hired us for
> a demo of what they can do. The visual problems are obvious, needing
> to see above the heads of the dancers so I can see the band on stage.
> Less obvious is the lighting, which there was little of, and it was
> mostly backlighing.

> But the sound - er, good thing they hired me, because I KNOW sound,
> and have recorded a lot of bands. Well, maybe not amplified bands,
> but I have been around the block recording audio.

Sorry for being late in the thread, but been busy. It is many years ago I
thought I knew sound and I still get surprised by it. Learn from the great
musicians, be humble and easy to work with and know when, and only when, to
wear the primadonna manners, use them with great caution.

> The first problem is my main concept of placing my Zoom H2n up front
> to get the good, close sound that I am used to goes down the drain
> when the big stage monitors and PA speakers are placed right near
> where I would like to be.

So, you don't know sound. With that settled lets move on to getting a usable
recording. For an amplified event the minimum requirement is a stereo pair
above the stage getting some direct sound and a stereo output from the pa.
Smile to the PA operator and get just a wee bit of stereo spread in the mix,
but mono will do if it has to. You stereo image is from the pair, I had
great results using a pair of 4006's that hang totally wrong for the event
because the band was under them, it seems to be the right strategy. El
Cheapo Beringese measurement mics will also do, provided they do not clip.

> In my experience what this does is cause
> the AGC to go nuts from the bass frequencies because all of the

When you start to know sound - some day, I'm not there yet - you will have
forgotten what AGC is, so to be a good pretender: forget AGC. Yes, it is
probably there in your video camera and leave it on, it will save the day on
mayoral speeches that occur to way off of the main pair.

> speakers are facing away from the recorder, and the bass is most of
> what it hears, and all I get is whump whump whump. So that is out,
> and I place the recorder back further where it is safe, but that ends
> up in the same spot as the video camera, which is high up on a tripod
> about 40 ft back.

At least makes timing simpler ...

> No way to hang the recorder from the ceiling, without a 30 ft
> stepladder (and a volunteer).

Not a problem, if you have a choice, and you do _not_ always have one, the
mics goes above the stage if omni or so close in front of it if directional
that you record the direct sound mixed with the stage monitor output, it is
the Methode Dorsey as you will know from reading his posts.

> Only other aid will be the sound board recorder, Tascam DR-07 with
> line input set to AGC.

To solve what problem in a 24 bit world? - it is a ****poor **** concept to
use AGC *because* it preempts whatever dynamic range modification you may
want to undertake in post. You do not need to make a perfect recording, but
you DO need to make one that can be fixed in post.

> HOWEVER, this concept depends heavily on the
> sound mixer doing his thing right so that I get at least an
> approximation of all of the instruments.

You got that wrong, your main sound image comes from the main pair.

> On first testing, it seems
> that I am missing some of them, because they have their own amp and
> speaker right next to them and don't need to go into the board.

Yerp, this is why your aim is to record the stage sound as is, it is likely
ok for the musicians and thus also likely ok as canvas.

> I
> mention to the sound guy (just one of the musicians) that the kick
> drum is WHACKing its authority a little too loudly, and that is all I
> am hearing right now.

That is what the multiband compressor in post is for. Read Mezz Mezzrows
auto-biography of a dope peddler and you will find a description in it what
bass sounds are for at a live event. Do not ask them to change the sound mix
for your benefit, there is a paying audience and having happy musicians and
event staff does more to make it a good recording than being in the way more
than unavoidable.

> [snip]

> So back in the studio I download all tracks, the video camera track,
> the Zoom, and the sound board. I sync them up and give a listen to
> who is doing what to who. The video sound is all floompy and not real
> distinct. The sound board is thin but has most of the instruments and
> does pick up the two vocalists very distinctly, so all is not lost.

What you hear in the hall is a combination of stage sound and pa sound, this
is why you need to record both. Remember you can not add clarity and the
direct sound from the instruments is way better than anything from the pa
mix no matter how good the system is and how skilled the operator is.

> I adjust the gains to the various tracks and balance the vocalists
> with the bass of the video track and it seems to come together on my
> modest video monitoring speakers to a point where I won't be
> embarrassed to call the client in for a look see.

You MUST have some subs, preferably stereophonic, it is required to be able
to hear bass range oddities.

> The lack of control in a live situation is very frustrating. Both the
> lighting and the sound, the obvious important elements in a VIDEO of
> a BAND performing were completely out of my intimate control to the
> point that I might reconsider taking on such a thing in the future
> without some sort of pre-arrangement.

You're not a live sound recordist then, it is about giving leeway to the
unexpected. I made a sound + video of a performance in a parking basement
with marginal and weird lighting matching the acoustics and I am quite
optimistic about the outcome because it is intended to be weird.

> You have any similar tales? Live amplified band recording has to be
> the most difficult job anywhere.

Yes, generally you should do it Wally Heider style, but Methode Dorsey
worked like a charm when it tried it on two recordings in 2012. Getting the
track timing right is however critical and having the MONO plugin sure helps
whenever you have microphones that are bass wavelengths, or large fractions
thereof, apart.

And what John Williamson said, and what James Perret said.

> Gary Eickmeier

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 08:28:19 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
> wrote:

>Trevor wrote:
>
>> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>>> This could turn into a long sidebar, but I just want to know how many
>>> reporters were there when Adam and Eve were created.
>
>> Do you count the snake?
>
>Of course, there wouldn't be a show without it.
>

They needed a snake? How many mikes did they have for gossake?

d

[Trevor]

> Don Pearce > wrote:
> They needed a snake? How many mikes did they have for gossake?

They didn't "need" one, turns out they would have been better off without
it! :-)

Trevor.

[hank alrich]

Peter Larsen > wrote:

> The audience pays for the show and you do NOT want to be responsible for
> causing feedback.


> No, here is why: there will still be a show without a recording, but there
> will not be a recording without a show.


> You need to be a skilled PA operator to mic up a live stage for PA.

Live recording and sound reinforcement trifecta triumph right there.

So much of this is about the obvious: if you're the recordist, it isn't
about _you_. Get over yourself.

If you've little SR experience, isn't it obvious that you will most
likely do a **** job of mixing a live show? One's ego may lead one to
think there's little to it. One show filled with ****ups will teach
otherwise. Do it that a dive bar where the patrons already don't give a
crap.

Bringing what one thinks are a bunch of "creative" ideas to well
established practices, absent extensive experience, leads audients to
want for their money back.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic