Phasing issue?

[Brian Janus]

Hello,
I've been mixing a song recently, and am running into a problem. The
song starts with an acoustic guitar and vocals for 4bars, then the
band kicks in drums,bass,electric guitar, and fender rhodes, and a
second "double tracked" vocal. The doubled vocal follows the lead but
does do some beautiful harmonies that add a great texture. But, when
it kicks in after the 4 bars the whole volume of the vocals the main
included gets sucked down ..it's uncompressed so I'm wondering if it
was a phasing issue? It should be stated that I'm not the most
experienced engineer and would sound silly if I pretended to be, but
I've heard phase issues described and this may be the case with the
vocals?.. this would be a guess.Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Brian

[Ty Ford]

In Article >,
(Brian Janus) wrote:
>Hello,
>I've been mixing a song recently, and am running into a problem. The
>song starts with an acoustic guitar and vocals for 4bars, then the
>band kicks in drums,bass,electric guitar, and fender rhodes, and a
>second "double tracked" vocal. The doubled vocal follows the lead but
>does do some beautiful harmonies that add a great texture. But, when
>it kicks in after the 4 bars the whole volume of the vocals the main
>included gets sucked down ..it's uncompressed so I'm wondering if it
>was a phasing issue? It should be stated that I'm not the most
>experienced engineer and would sound silly if I pretended to be, but
>I've heard phase issues described and this may be the case with the
>vocals?.. this would be a guess.Any help would be appreciated.
>Thanks,
>Brian


Hi Brian,

You say, when it kicks in after the 4 bars the vocals get sucked down. Could
it be that the vocal don't really change, but the instruments overwhelm the
vocals?

Try soloing the vocals. If they don't drop out after 4 bars, they're fine.
If they do, and you're using some sort of DAW, check to be sure the gain on
the vocal tracks hasn't been inadvertantly reduced at that point.

If it hasn't, go back to square one and begin remixing. (Most of us have
been there...done that..and learned a lot from it.) I often mix vocals first
then bring up the instrumentals to complement the vocals as needed.

There's only so much space on the frequency spectrum and only so much gain.
Clobbering vocals is easy to do.

Regards,

Ty Ford

**Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address.
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Ty Ford]

In Article >,
(Brian Janus) wrote:
>Hello,
>I've been mixing a song recently, and am running into a problem. The
>song starts with an acoustic guitar and vocals for 4bars, then the
>band kicks in drums,bass,electric guitar, and fender rhodes, and a
>second "double tracked" vocal. The doubled vocal follows the lead but
>does do some beautiful harmonies that add a great texture. But, when
>it kicks in after the 4 bars the whole volume of the vocals the main
>included gets sucked down ..it's uncompressed so I'm wondering if it
>was a phasing issue? It should be stated that I'm not the most
>experienced engineer and would sound silly if I pretended to be, but
>I've heard phase issues described and this may be the case with the
>vocals?.. this would be a guess.Any help would be appreciated.
>Thanks,
>Brian


Hi Brian,

You say, when it kicks in after the 4 bars the vocals get sucked down. Could
it be that the vocal don't really change, but the instruments overwhelm the
vocals?

Try soloing the vocals. If they don't drop out after 4 bars, they're fine.
If they do, and you're using some sort of DAW, check to be sure the gain on
the vocal tracks hasn't been inadvertantly reduced at that point.

If it hasn't, go back to square one and begin remixing. (Most of us have
been there...done that..and learned a lot from it.) I often mix vocals first
then bring up the instrumentals to complement the vocals as needed.

There's only so much space on the frequency spectrum and only so much gain.
Clobbering vocals is easy to do.

Regards,

Ty Ford

**Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address.
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[ScotFraser]

<< But, when
it kicks in after the 4 bars the whole volume of the vocals the main
included gets sucked down ..it's uncompressed so I'm wondering if it
was a phasing issue? >>

Nothing you've described shows anything being out of phase here. Is there a
compressor across the mix buss?


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< But, when
it kicks in after the 4 bars the whole volume of the vocals the main
included gets sucked down ..it's uncompressed so I'm wondering if it
was a phasing issue? >>

Nothing you've described shows anything being out of phase here. Is there a
compressor across the mix buss?


Scott Fraser

[Brian Janus]

There is no compression on the mix bus just a slight 4:1 on the bass
guitar..it's a very Neil Young type "everyone knows .." type song
tracked live vocal overdubbed. Ty I will solo those vocals and check
it out that's an obvious thing that I've overlooked so thanks...
Something that I just thought of that may have something to do with it
is that it was originally tracked on an otari mx5050 1/2" biased for
499..But I transferred it to DA-38's and did the transfer off of a
tsr-8 biased for 456 so when the reels we're playing on the tsr-8 the
levels were way up..did a straight transfer(rca-rca) to the DA38 and
the levels we're fine on the 38 but I'm wondering ,and this would just
be speculation would this just be a case of tape saturation would that
create the compression? I really do dig the sound on the tranfer and I
dig the 38's transport...I will solo the vocs and if not a "suck down"
if worst comes to worst I can ride the fader a little. I do love that
record the Neil Young rec w/crazy horse and am using it as a rough
blueprint, in regards to the use of "space" if that makes sense..again
thanks for the help, it really is unbelievable to be talking to guys
with the credits and experience of you all.
Appreciate it,
Brian



(ScotFraser) wrote in message >...
> << But, when
> it kicks in after the 4 bars the whole volume of the vocals the main
> included gets sucked down ..it's uncompressed so I'm wondering if it
> was a phasing issue? >>
>
> Nothing you've described shows anything being out of phase here. Is there a
> compressor across the mix buss?
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[Brian Janus]

There is no compression on the mix bus just a slight 4:1 on the bass
guitar..it's a very Neil Young type "everyone knows .." type song
tracked live vocal overdubbed. Ty I will solo those vocals and check
it out that's an obvious thing that I've overlooked so thanks...
Something that I just thought of that may have something to do with it
is that it was originally tracked on an otari mx5050 1/2" biased for
499..But I transferred it to DA-38's and did the transfer off of a
tsr-8 biased for 456 so when the reels we're playing on the tsr-8 the
levels were way up..did a straight transfer(rca-rca) to the DA38 and
the levels we're fine on the 38 but I'm wondering ,and this would just
be speculation would this just be a case of tape saturation would that
create the compression? I really do dig the sound on the tranfer and I
dig the 38's transport...I will solo the vocs and if not a "suck down"
if worst comes to worst I can ride the fader a little. I do love that
record the Neil Young rec w/crazy horse and am using it as a rough
blueprint, in regards to the use of "space" if that makes sense..again
thanks for the help, it really is unbelievable to be talking to guys
with the credits and experience of you all.
Appreciate it,
Brian



(ScotFraser) wrote in message >...
> << But, when
> it kicks in after the 4 bars the whole volume of the vocals the main
> included gets sucked down ..it's uncompressed so I'm wondering if it
> was a phasing issue? >>
>
> Nothing you've described shows anything being out of phase here. Is there a
> compressor across the mix buss?
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< There is no compression on the mix bus >>

Then maybe it's just a matter of the vocals being overwhelmed when the band
comes in. You are going from a cappella to a full band mix at that point, so a
big boost in vocal level would be in order to bridge the transition.


Scott Fraser