Do all guitar tube preamps sound like this? Help!!

[me]

I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...

I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
recently. My new setup is

Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
Genz Benz 2x12 cab
Shure Sm57, Beta57a

I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.

I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on (to
then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and A
to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds like
the note is enveloped by
this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit this
(happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
on the
preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed that
it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.

Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I am
dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.

thanks,

brian
www.guitar-dreams.com

[Animix]

Well,

I don't know anything about Hafler, VHT or Carvin. I do know that parking an
SM57 in front of a Demeter (or Fender, Mesa, Marshall) tube guitar rig and
running the mic cable into a Demeter tube mic preamp sounds pretty nice to
my ears, though I often prefer using a solid state preamp on large
overdriven tube guitar rigs


"me" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.
>
> I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on
(to
> then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
> neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
> or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
> because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and
A
> to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
> rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds
like
> the note is enveloped by
> this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit
this
> (happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
> on the
> preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed
that
> it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
> if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
> sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.
>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I
am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
> www.guitar-dreams.com
>
>
>
>
>

[Animix]

Well,

I don't know anything about Hafler, VHT or Carvin. I do know that parking an
SM57 in front of a Demeter (or Fender, Mesa, Marshall) tube guitar rig and
running the mic cable into a Demeter tube mic preamp sounds pretty nice to
my ears, though I often prefer using a solid state preamp on large
overdriven tube guitar rigs


"me" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.
>
> I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on
(to
> then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
> neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
> or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
> because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and
A
> to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
> rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds
like
> the note is enveloped by
> this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit
this
> (happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
> on the
> preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed
that
> it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
> if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
> sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.
>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I
am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
> www.guitar-dreams.com
>
>
>
>
>

[John Washburn]

"me" wrote:
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.

<snip happens>

>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I
am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.


I can't comment on any of the specific gear you're using, but most
satisfying electric guitar tones involve tube amps.

There's a lot of different approaches to amplifier topology, some of which
will be better suited to what you're trying to do than others.

You might do well to listen to variety of amps. A music store is a good
place to start. Go (during off hours if possible--weekday mornings are good)
and just play through different amps so you start to put together a
reference in your head of how different amps sound.

Good luck!

-jw

[John Washburn]

"me" wrote:
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.

<snip happens>

>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I
am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.


I can't comment on any of the specific gear you're using, but most
satisfying electric guitar tones involve tube amps.

There's a lot of different approaches to amplifier topology, some of which
will be better suited to what you're trying to do than others.

You might do well to listen to variety of amps. A music store is a good
place to start. Go (during off hours if possible--weekday mornings are good)
and just play through different amps so you start to put together a
reference in your head of how different amps sound.

Good luck!

-jw

[PhilW]

Depends what tone you're looking for, but in general tube preamps are very
overrated. Classic rock tones come from overdriven power tubes, and preamps
make a contribution to that, but it's the power tubes that count. If you
have an example of tone (some artist or band) that would at least be a
starting point.

See if any of this rings true for you:
http://www.amptone.com


---
"me" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.
>
> I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on
(to
> then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
> neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
> or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
> because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and
A
> to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
> rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds
like
> the note is enveloped by
> this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit
this
> (happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
> on the
> preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed
that
> it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
> if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
> sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.
>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I
am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
> www.guitar-dreams.com
>
>
>
>
>

[PhilW]

Depends what tone you're looking for, but in general tube preamps are very
overrated. Classic rock tones come from overdriven power tubes, and preamps
make a contribution to that, but it's the power tubes that count. If you
have an example of tone (some artist or band) that would at least be a
starting point.

See if any of this rings true for you:
http://www.amptone.com


---
"me" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.
>
> I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on
(to
> then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
> neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
> or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
> because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and
A
> to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
> rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds
like
> the note is enveloped by
> this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit
this
> (happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
> on the
> preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed
that
> it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
> if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
> sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.
>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I
am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
> www.guitar-dreams.com
>
>
>
>
>

[Edvard Puskaric]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:07:38 -0700, "PhilW" >
wrote:

>Depends what tone you're looking for, but in general tube preamps are very
>overrated. Classic rock tones come from overdriven power tubes, and preamps
>make a contribution to that, but it's the power tubes that count. If you
>have an example of tone (some artist or band) that would at least be a
>starting point.
>
>See if any of this rings true for you:
>http://www.amptone.com

It all matters: player, guitar, pickup, strings, cord, stomp boxes,
preamp, power amp, output transformer, speakers, cabinet design.

What's surprising is how many times tube amps get the credit for solid
state setups. Sure that looks like a marshall rig, but God only knows
what's stuffed into the thing.

Ed

[Edvard Puskaric]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:07:38 -0700, "PhilW" >
wrote:

>Depends what tone you're looking for, but in general tube preamps are very
>overrated. Classic rock tones come from overdriven power tubes, and preamps
>make a contribution to that, but it's the power tubes that count. If you
>have an example of tone (some artist or band) that would at least be a
>starting point.
>
>See if any of this rings true for you:
>http://www.amptone.com

It all matters: player, guitar, pickup, strings, cord, stomp boxes,
preamp, power amp, output transformer, speakers, cabinet design.

What's surprising is how many times tube amps get the credit for solid
state setups. Sure that looks like a marshall rig, but God only knows
what's stuffed into the thing.

Ed

[am]

Try turning the volume up to 11. <G>

[am]

Try turning the volume up to 11. <G>

[ScotFraser]

<< I read somewhere about a band that had some dummy Marshal cabs. The backs
opened up and they were used to store cables and microphones and stuff. >>

Decades ago I worked on a video for a Bay area band called Y & T. I went to
their gig afterward & they had a solid wall of Marshall 4X12 cabs stacked 3
high across the entire width of the stage. At the set change I noticed the
stage hands unloading these things, carrying one cabinet in each hand. All but
a few were dummies.


Scott Fraser

[Jonathan Roberts]

> Whenever I switch to the neck humbucker ... it sounds, to my ears, awful. ...
> the note is enveloped by this loose, bassy, boominess.

Try cranking the height of the pickup down, and moving the pole-pieces
up. If that weakens the treble strings too much just crank down the bass
string side (note in photos of Peter Green's Les Paul, years ago [of
course] the bass side of the pickup is almost under the guitar's surface
-- and he got one of the best tones I've ever heard out of that guitar).

--
in days somehow distracted / in nights of troubled sleep
these memories long suppressed emerge / too difficult to keep
To reach me reverse: moc(dot)xobop(at)ggestran

[Garthrr]

>> Whenever I switch to the neck humbucker ... it sounds, to my ears, awful....

>> the note is enveloped by this loose, bassy, boominess.

Its sounds like you may have a lot of bass dialed in on the amp. This might be
ok if you are playing through the bridge pickup but a setting that works for
that pickup may well not work for the other. Dont expect to be able to get the
best tone on either pickup without having to change the amp settings when you
change pickups. Of course on a gig thats not practical but in recording its
often necessary.

Also, make sure that the bridge pickup is at least as close to the strings as
the neck pickup. The area of the strings above the neck pickup is putting out a
lot more magnetic flux than the area above the bridge pickup. Most sets of
pickups are wound in such a way as to offset this discrepency but its not
always enough to match them.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

[Mike]

"me" > wrote in message >...
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.
>
> I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on (to
> then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
> neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
> or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
> because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and A
> to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
> rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds like
> the note is enveloped by
> this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit this
> (happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
> on the
> preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed that
> it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
> if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
> sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.
>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
> www.guitar-dreams.com


Solid State amps tend to even every thing out. Some might say smooth.
Others might say flat. I think with a tube amp you will notice more
anomalies of your guitar and playing. That's it's advantage and
disadvantage. Greater detail, but less masking of waffling of strings
and so forth.

but all in all that can be greatly influenced by the mic and the
position. That waffling nasty string sound I think is in the low mids.
Try backing hte mic off a bit. Try putting it out to the edge of the
cone. Etc.

You can also try putting a compressor inline of the guitar or after
the microphone and see if it helps some of the peaks of those lower
waffling tones.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

[Mike]

"me" > wrote in message >...
> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.
>
> I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on (to
> then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
> neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
> or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
> because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and A
> to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
> rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds like
> the note is enveloped by
> this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit this
> (happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
> on the
> preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed that
> it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
> if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
> sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.
>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
> www.guitar-dreams.com

Looking at your post again I wonder if it is a matter of needing
different strings. I can't imagine all those preamp gutar combos would
sound so bad.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

[Joe Pacheco]

(Garthrr) wrote in message >...
> >> Whenever I switch to the neck humbucker ... it sounds, to my ears, awful....
>
> >> the note is enveloped by this loose, bassy, boominess.
>
> Its sounds like you may have a lot of bass dialed in on the amp. This might be
> ok if you are playing through the bridge pickup but a setting that works for
> that pickup may well not work for the other. Dont expect to be able to get the
> best tone on either pickup without having to change the amp settings when you
> change pickups. Of course on a gig thats not practical but in recording its
> often necessary.
>
> Also, make sure that the bridge pickup is at least as close to the strings as
> the neck pickup. The area of the strings above the neck pickup is putting out a
> lot more magnetic flux than the area above the bridge pickup. Most sets of
> pickups are wound in such a way as to offset this discrepency but its not
> always enough to match them.
>
> Garth~
>
>
> "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney

Not familiar with your amps, but if it has a tube rectifier, it may be
worthwile experimenting with a few different makes. The effect your
describing is exactly what my 59 bassman does to different degrees
with various rectifiers. I am currently using a NOS philips tube which
helps with the bite and definition.

[Off Hugo]

So, if you had a setup you liked and worked well for you, why don't
you just go back to it?

If it's gone....shame on you.

So then, try all of the things mentioned here and a few
others....lower pickup height, try parallel switching, try different
tubes and possibly 12au7 or 12at7 in place of 12ax7 tubes in your
preamp. Try a solid state rectifier in place of a tube rectifier, if
that's what you have.

Very generally speaking, I think both the Hafler and the Carvin are
big furry sounding preamps. You should try the VHT preamp...the clean
and crunch channels are very tight and focused.

Overall, it seems like a lot of twiddling to try to immitate the sound
of something you already had......and quite expensive too.....like a
copy of an original that is way more expensive and doesn't sound as
good. Doesn't something seem a bit odd here?

Reminds me of when a friend bought one of the first digital boxes for
about a grand and exclaimed he finally was almost able to get the
sound of my analog delay.....a $75 box.

Um.....hello..........

> I don't have a clip to post, but let me try to explain in words...
>
> I have been playing solid state for around 15 years. It was all I knew til
> recently. My new setup is
>
> Hafler Triple Giant Tube Preamp
> VHT 2/50/2 Tube Poweramp
> Genz Benz 2x12 cab
> Shure Sm57, Beta57a
>
> I also have a Carvin Quad X Tube Preamp.
>
> I am trying to record very high quality tracks for a cd I am working on (to
> then be sent to a mix engineer). Here is the thing. Whenever I switch to
> neck humbucker (on my Carvin DC127
> or my Ibanez 540S), it sounds, to my ears, aweful. I don't know if this is
> because my ears are so used to solid state. In any case, on the low E (and A
> to lesser extent and D to still a lesser extent), the notes sound so
> rubbery, especially around 12th fret. There is no definition. It sounds like
> the note is enveloped by
> this loose, bassy, boominess. Both the Carvin and Triple Giant exhibit this
> (happens with both guitars also). Even if I turn down the bass all the way
> on the
> preamps (as well as the depth on the poweramp) I hear it. I confirmed that
> it is not the cabinet or anything that followssuch as mic or mic pre (i.e.
> if I run the Triple Giant to a cab simulator I hear the same thing). This
> sound is being generated by the guitar preamps, I am quite sure.
>
> Is this simply a quality of tube amps? Does it have to do with volume? I am
> dying here. And if I back off on the gain it sounds even worse.
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
> www.guitar-dreams.com