High power guitar amps are a dead issue

[[email protected]]

No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs
more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have
and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

>

> No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp.


** Shame how many of the are on sale and selling well.

300 watt Ampeg SVTs are still popular with bass players.


> No metal band runs
> more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have


** Still need some real ones to make that special noise and fill huge
stadiums.

But the reality is, the vast majority of Marshall stacks are sitting in the
bed rooms and garages of wannabes and near geriatric weekend warriors.



.... Phil

[[email protected]]

On Jan 29, 8:49*pm, "Phil Allison" > wrote:
> >
>
> > No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp.
>
> ** Shame how many of the are on sale and selling well.
>
> * * 300 watt Ampeg SVTs are still popular with bass players.
>
> > No metal band runs
> > more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have
>
> ** Still need some real ones to make that special noise and fill huge
> stadiums.
>
> But the reality is, the vast majority of Marshall stacks are sitting in the
> bed rooms and garages of wannabes and near geriatric weekend warriors.
>
> ... * Phil

Bass players buy bigger amplifiers but bass needs bigger ones and the
amplifier per se is less a part of the "sound", they don't want power
distortion, so want larger amplifiers. Guitar players in rock want
power stage distortion, and to achieve it with big amps they need to
run them very loud. Too loud. So bass players can use headroom, which
is a defecit with guitar.

There are some types of guitar playing where they want clean, usually
they run solid state simply as it is cheaper per watt. Less
maintenance more durable etc.

50-100 watt amps sell very well. Bigger tube amps are rare except the
Ampeg SVT for bass. Stones and Southern boogie influenced/admiring/
imitating bassists buy 'em.

Aside from Dumble clones even the "boutique" builders are going with
6V6 or EL84 based amps more and more.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

>
"Phil Allison"

> But the reality is, the vast majority of Marshall stacks are sitting in
> the
> bed rooms and garages of wannabes and near geriatric weekend warriors.
>
Aside from Dumble clones even the "boutique" builders are going with
6V6 or EL84 based amps more and more.


** So called "boutique" amp makers sell almost entirely to bedroom ******s.

95% of all electric guitars are sold to novices and teenage boys.

SS amps massively outsell tube models in terms of numbers.

Vox tube amps are all made in China and Marshall now have 50W and 100 W tube
heads assembled in Vietnam.

There is a vast second hand market in tube amps and electric guitars - way
bigger than the new market.

Working musicians tend to play ( and collect) old guitars and old tube
mps - cos they think it looks cool.

There is little sanity in any of this.



.... Phil

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
> No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs
> more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have
> and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them.

Hmm. Sales of high-power amps are strong.

Perhaps its a need to compensate for quality
with quantity:-))

But the Pignose 7 which has been around for years
has the reputation of a small amp with a huge
sound with a carefully placed mic. It weighs
only 2 kilos. One sees it often in studios.

http://www.mveducation.com/invt/36613/

Iain

[Lord Valve]

wrote:

> No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs
> more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have
> and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them.

Define "high power."

LV

[[email protected]]

On Jan 31, 11:14*am, Lord Valve > wrote:
> wrote:
> > *No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs
> > more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have
> > and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them.
>
> Define "high power."
>
> LV

Certainly more than 50 to 100 watts-and the growth has been in 5 to
25-30 watt amps mostly.

The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts-it will put
out quite a bit more if the signal level in is high enough. A lot of
AC15 and AC30 clones are being built.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

>

The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts


** False on both counts.

In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.

Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at
<10% THD.

The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.




.... Phil

[flipper]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:04:56 +1100, "Phil Allison" >
wrote:

>
>
>
>The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>
>
>** False on both counts.
>
>In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.
>
>Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at
><10% THD.
>
>The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.

Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A?

The AC30 OPT is 4k, exactly half the typical 'datasheet' 8k for a pair
running Class AB, or B, at 17 Watts (not counting OPT losses).

http://www.aikenamps.com/VoxAC30classA_2.html


>... Phil
>

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"flipper = ****ing IDIOT "


>
>>
>>The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>>
>>
>>** False on both counts.
>>
>>In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.
>>
>>Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load
>>at
>><10% THD.
>>
>>The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.
>
> Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A?


** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead.

ARSEHOLE !!


.... Phil

[flipper]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:00:39 +1100, "Phil Allison" >
wrote:

>
>"flipper = ****ing IDIOT "
>
>
>
>>>
>>>The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>>>
>>>
>>>** False on both counts.
>>>
>>>In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.
>>>
>>>Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load
>>>at
>>><10% THD.
>>>
>>>The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.
>>
>> Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A?
>
>
>** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead.

You first.

> ARSEHOLE !!
>
>
>... Phil
>

[Patrick Turner]

On Feb 1, 4:04*pm, "Phil Allison" > wrote:
> >
>
> The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>
> ** False on both counts.
>
> In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.
>
> Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at
> <10% THD.
>
> The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.
>
> ... *Phil

Depends on exactly what speakers are used with Vox 30 type amps.

Pentode class A efficiency is about 40%, so that if you get 30Watts of
class A PO, then there must be 75Watts of input power, and this
remains constant between idle and clipping, so that each of 4 tubes
tube must have 18.75 Watts of anode Pda even at idle. Clearly this is
not the case with Vox AC30, and last time I fixed on I recall each
tube laboured hard at 15W Pda when the EL84 specs recommend 12Watts,
and sensible hi-fi makers used Pda = 10W per EL84. 30W of pure class A
was not to be had from a quad. Baird hi-fi amps managed 60W class AB1
from a six pack though.

So Vox AC30 give 20W maybe, with a bitta class AB shoved on top, fine,
near enough, and who gives a **** when they are pushed into class C
when over driven on each loud note and chord?.

Usually, 10 watts of pure class A was regarded as max from a pair of
EL84, so 20 Watts class A from a quad.

Whenever some idiot talks about muso amps and class A PO, usually most
of what they say about anything is uneducated crap. Duzzen Madder, its
muso spiel, be happy, don't worry, just smile and don't bother
disagreeing.

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

On Feb 1, 6:00*pm, "Phil Allison" > wrote:
> "flipper = *****ing IDIOT "
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >>The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>
> >>** False on both counts.
>
> >>In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way..
>
> >>Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load
> >>at
> >><10% THD.
>
> >>The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.
>
> > Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A?
>
> ** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead.
>
> * * ARSEHOLE *!!
>
> ... *Phil- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Flipper is the man who has decreed that he is, like the Popes before
him, Infallible, and that it is impossible for him to type anything
that is a mistake, shortsighted, economic with truth etc.
Nevertheless, he questions 30W class A validity from 4 EL84 like I do.
Fact is that EL84 have a quite "gooey" overload character - soft
clipping - as has been claimed about various amps, ie, there is
compression of the signal before sudden sharp clipping. Ya gotta
accept AC30 does have a tolerable overdrive sound, much lerved by
lotsa musos. Driven into deep clipping, power becomes class C, beyound
initial 20W classA, then 30W mild class AB, then class B then class C
with coupling caps retaining a high negative biasing charge due to
grid current. I've had guys complain about Vox AC30 clones being a bit
useless to record with because they tended to "paralyse" so easy. But
levels used were either too high or two low, and low levels below
clipping seemed like using a very sick amp, no gutz&bang, so there
they were complaining about their amps in my workshop. I can't please
everyone all the time.

Patrick Turner.

[flipper]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 05:11:56 -0800 (PST), Patrick Turner
> wrote:

>On Feb 1, 6:00*pm, "Phil Allison" > wrote:
>> "flipper = *****ing IDIOT "
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>> >>The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>>
>> >>** False on both counts.
>>
>> >>In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.
>>
>> >>Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load
>> >>at
>> >><10% THD.
>>
>> >>The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.
>>
>> > Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A?
>>
>> ** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead.
>>
>> * * ARSEHOLE *!!
>>
>> ... *Phil- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Flipper is the man who has decreed that he is, like the Popes before
>him, Infallible, and that it is impossible for him to type anything
>that is a mistake, shortsighted, economic with truth etc.

As usual, Pope Turner projects his own self aggrandizing fantasies
onto others.

>Nevertheless, he questions 30W class A validity from 4 EL84 like I do.
>Fact is that EL84 have a quite "gooey" overload character - soft
>clipping - as has been claimed about various amps, ie, there is
>compression of the signal before sudden sharp clipping. Ya gotta
>accept AC30 does have a tolerable overdrive sound, much lerved by
>lotsa musos. Driven into deep clipping, power becomes class C, beyound
>initial 20W classA, then 30W mild class AB, then class B then class C
>with coupling caps retaining a high negative biasing charge due to
>grid current. I've had guys complain about Vox AC30 clones being a bit
>useless to record with because they tended to "paralyse" so easy. But
>levels used were either too high or two low, and low levels below
>clipping seemed like using a very sick amp, no gutz&bang, so there
>they were complaining about their amps in my workshop. I can't please
>everyone all the time.
>
>Patrick Turner.

[Lord Valve]

wrote:

> On Jan 31, 11:14 am, Lord Valve > wrote:
> > wrote:
> > > No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs
> > > more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have
> > > and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them.
> >
> > Define "high power."
> >
> > LV
>
> Certainly more than 50 to 100 watts-and the growth has been in 5 to
> 25-30 watt amps mostly.

Very few tube guitar amps over 100 watts output were ever produced.

The Marshall Major, the Ampeg V-9 (lead guitar version
of the SVT) and the Hiwatt DR-201 come to mind, but
none have been produced for quite a while now. Fender
made the horrid-sounding Super Twin (180 watts claimed;
could do maybe 130 with new tubes and high line voltage)
and the even more horrid-sounding PS-300. Amps
in the 50-100 watt range are still in production and still
quite popular.

> The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts-it will put
> out quite a bit more if the signal level in is high enough.

You can argue with Phil about that one.

It's Class A until you run it hard. Good luck getting
"quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s,
though.

> A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built.

The Chinese ones are ****.


Lord Valve
Expert (******s are encouraged to whine about it)

[flipper]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:47:50 -0700, Lord Valve
> wrote:

wrote:
>
>> On Jan 31, 11:14 am, Lord Valve > wrote:
>> > wrote:
>> > > No one needs them anymore: you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs
>> > > more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have
>> > > and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them.
>> >
>> > Define "high power."
>> >
>> > LV
>>
>> Certainly more than 50 to 100 watts-and the growth has been in 5 to
>> 25-30 watt amps mostly.
>
>Very few tube guitar amps over 100 watts output were ever produced.
>
>The Marshall Major, the Ampeg V-9 (lead guitar version
>of the SVT) and the Hiwatt DR-201 come to mind, but
>none have been produced for quite a while now. Fender
>made the horrid-sounding Super Twin (180 watts claimed;
>could do maybe 130 with new tubes and high line voltage)
>and the even more horrid-sounding PS-300. Amps
>in the 50-100 watt range are still in production and still
>quite popular.
>
>> The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts-it will put
>> out quite a bit more if the signal level in is high enough.
>
>You can argue with Phil about that one.
>
>It's Class A until you run it hard.

I understand what you're saying but it might be confusing to those who
don't. You can run any Class AB amp at lower Po so the tubes stay out
of cutoff but that doesn't turn the amp, itself, into a Class A
amplifier. It's still a Class AB amp.

The AC30 can do a bit more before cutoff because they're running the
tubes hot at 15 Watt vs the manufacturer's Class AB "Typical
Operation" of 11 Watt (Design-Center 12 Watt, Design-Maximum 13.2
Watt).

> Good luck getting
>"quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s,
>though.

Maybe if you square wave it.


>> A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built.
>
>The Chinese ones are ****.
>
>
>Lord Valve
>Expert (******s are encouraged to whine about it)
>
>
>

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:55:47 -0600, flipper > wrote:

>> Good luck getting
>>"quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s,
>>though.
>
>Maybe if you square wave it.

Pretty much exactly what you do with a cranked guitar.

d

[flipper]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:07:00 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:55:47 -0600, flipper > wrote:
>
>>> Good luck getting
>>>"quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s,
>>>though.
>>
>>Maybe if you square wave it.
>
>Pretty much exactly what you do with a cranked guitar.
>
>d

True, and is why I mentioned it because rruston didn't say what he
meant by "quite a bit more."

Of course, it could also be one of those esoteric "sounds as loud as"
kind of things since, without even considering speaker SPL, 50 Watt vs
30 Watt is only a bit over 2 dB and indiscernible to casual
observation. Sneak the volume knob up a notch and who would notice if
it clipped a smidgen more on the attack peaks?

[It's that Guy again...]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:47:50 -0700, Lord Valve
> wrote:

>It's Class A until you run it hard. Good luck getting
>"quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s,
>though.

When it comes to Class-A, I remember what Mr. Nelson Pass
said, as I always found him to be the god of Class-A. I can't
find the exact quotes, but here's a bit of it IMMSMW:

Single Ended A amps (tube or SS) will run A till the circuit
involved (tube/transistor/trans/line/caps/etc) cut out. Then
it will go out of the specs stated, even distort like crazy,
or catch fire. Or just stop. Push-Pull will do the same till
it reaches that point, then go into AB, if the circuit will
allow it, all the way up to whatever class you want to name.

I believe Mr. Pass said this is true for any PP 'A' amp made..

The AC30 IS a PP amp, and IMHO, after 20 or so watts, goes
into AB till about 28, if you are lucky, Just because it is cathode
biased does NOT make it a REAL 'A' amp. Those who know,
pull the single cap/resistor and replace it with separate ones
for each tube, and add a separate heater tranz. That helps a bit.

...of course, you have to do some math here...

Now..if anyone here wants to call Mr. Pass a ******..

If needed, I can find the article, yet he has his own forum
and answers quite often. One amazing guy, he knows Class-A.

>> A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built.

>The Chinese ones are ****.

When I worked for the VOX folks here (Pr1mo) AC30's were made
by Custom Sound in the UK. The tubes were crap, but they were
UK AC30s. The **** made in China might as well be B-52 level
puke, yet sells for danger $. Vox of today is a complete joke, IMHO.

JJTj





*> SENT FROM CELL PHONE DECK# 864378HS <*
*> NO REPLY MODE GIGANEWS T4DSQ-OfK9 <*

[[email protected]]

On Jan 31, 11:04*pm, "Phil Allison" > wrote:
> >
>
> The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>
> ** False on both counts.
>
> In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.
>
> Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at
> <10% THD.
>
> The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.
>
> ... *Phil

If you weren't spastic or autistic, or whatever term is in for lady
parts betwixt the legs in your end of planet, Phil, you'd know "not 30
watts" could mean one of two things. I have seen a stock example
plugged into US mains voltage on the 115 vac setting put almost 45
watts into a load resistor at around seven percent THD. The filter
caps would have blown if they were original at this input voltage and
the heaters were obviously glowing at a higher color temperature than
is quite right. At bogey line voltage a good AC30 is probably a 35 to
40 watt amp all considered. But it is not Class A at that point
either. This is a lot to do why people perceive it as a really loud 30
watt amp. It's more, also the original drivers are rather more
efficient than the heavy duty ones in Fenders that Leo had to put in
to make them Dick Dale proof. Hank Marvin never abused an amp like
Dale did!

[[email protected]]

>
> > Certainly more than 50 to 100 watts-and the growth has been in 5 to
> > 25-30 watt amps mostly.
>
> Very few tube guitar amps over 100 watts output were ever produced.
>
> The Marshall Major, the Ampeg V-9 (lead guitar version
> of the SVT) and the Hiwatt DR-201 come to mind, but
> none have been produced for quite a while now. Fender
> made the horrid-sounding Super Twin (180 watts claimed;
> could do maybe 130 with new tubes and high line voltage)
> and the even more horrid-sounding PS-300. *Amps
> in the 50-100 watt range are still in production and still
> quite popular.

The 4 tube silverface ultralinear Twin Reverb is the quintessential
country and casuals gig amp. I don't keep up with what Fender makes
now. I recall they were rated at 135 watts. Mesa Boogie made a lot of
4 tube Mark IIB and Mark IIIs: I never worked on them very much.
>
> > The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts-it will put
> > out quite a bit more if the signal level in is high enough.
>
> You can argue with Phil about that one.
>
> It's Class A until you run it hard. *Good luck getting
> "quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s,
> though.

If you have the drive it will. Especially if line voltage is a little
high. It's class A power point depends entirely on the tubes that are
in it and the cathode resistor. But for a resistor trimmed for bogey
quiescent current and four halfway matched tubes, I'm going to put a
SWAG of around 25 watts? Be easy enough to measure if i had an AC30 or
accurate clone.
>
> > A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built.
>
> The Chinese ones are ****.
Yes but what about Ceriatone? I'd be tempted if shipping weren't a
high hard one.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

If you have the drive it will. Especially if line voltage is a little
high. It's class A power point depends entirely on the tubes that are
in it and the cathode resistor. But for a resistor trimmed for bogey
quiescent current and four halfway matched tubes, I'm going to put a
SWAG of around 25 watts? Be easy enough to measure if i had an AC30 or
accurate clone.


** With the installed speakers and a music signal, the AC30 stays in class A
up to the clipping point.

What happens with a dummy load resistor is not relevant.



> The Chinese ones are ****.
> Yes but what about Ceriatone?


** Full of bugs and design flaws.

Perfect for bedroom ******s.


..... Phil

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

>
>
> The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts
>
> ** False on both counts.
>
> In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.
>
> Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load
> at
> <10% THD.
>
> The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks.


If you weren't spastic or autistic, or whatever term is in for lady
parts betwixt the legs in your end of planet, Phil, you'd know "not 30
watts" could mean one of two things.


** You are all sweetness and charm, aren't you ?

Charm the flies right of a turd - a scumbag like you would !!!

BTW:

Anyone alive who can read can see you posted a false quote so you could
bull**** even harder.

FOAD - you pathetic mother ****er.


..... Phil