Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
Domain measurement systems for market.

The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
Hachette Publications property stickers on them.

Hachette Filipacchi Media U.S magazine operations, like Ziff Davis, and
indeed Stereo Review, are regrettably no more. We obtained these units from
Hachette as surplus items right before they moved their offices in
Manhattan.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachette_Filipacchi_Media_U.S. ,
Hachette's US magazine operations were sold off in May, 2010.

The condition of the equipment is excellent. All of the tests I've run
worked the first time. We have them fully operational and attached to
computers running Windows XP. We believe that we have drivers and I/O cards
that will work with even later versions of Windows. The units are a tiny bit
out of calibration. We intend to run 100% of the diagnostics and have them
entirely nominal before sale.

While not SOTA in terms of distortion residuals, AP S1 systems are still
valuable tools for many current applications due to their excellent
interfaces, good performance, and programmability. We intend to sell them as
turnkey systems - unbox what we send you, plug it in, and go!

If you are interested in purchasing this equipment, please contact me at
arnyk at comcast dot net.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"Arny Krueger"
>
> I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
> Domain measurement systems for market.
>
> The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
> Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
> Hachette Publications property stickers on them.


** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?

Anyhow - here's a pic of one:

http://www.nessales.com/ebay/13318/Audio%20Precision%20System%20One%20Optical%20IO%20 Pic%20(0).JPG


.... Phil

[recursor]

On 12/30/2011 11:21 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
> "Arny Krueger"
>>
>> I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
>> Domain measurement systems for market.
>>
>> The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
>> Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
>> Hachette Publications property stickers on them.
>
>
> ** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?
>
Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
don't you know anything?

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"recursor"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>> "Arny Krueger"
>>>
>>> I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
>>> Domain measurement systems for market.
>>>
>>> The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
>>> Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
>>> Hachette Publications property stickers on them.
>>
>>
>> ** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?
>>
> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh, don't
> you know anything?


** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger prints
that made the difference.

Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.



..... Phil

[Alan[_5_]]

In message >, recursor
> wrote
>>
>Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...

but only when used with Russ Andrews cables.
--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[recursor]

On 12/31/2011 10:43 AM, Alan wrote:
> In message >, recursor
> > wrote
>>>
>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...
>
> but only when used with Russ Andrews cables.

Funny you should say that as the little beauties below have been reduced
to *only* £1503 and they feature that well known technical enhancement
of orthogonal braid. I've just ordered half a dozen of them, they'll go
well with the Hachette Publications property stickers...in fact **** it,
they won't just go well, they were made for each other.
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY

[Alan[_5_]]

In message >, recursor
> wrote

>http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&p
>f_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY


Check out the Deep Cryo Treatment link on that page :)
--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[recursor]

On 12/31/2011 01:47 PM, Alan wrote:
> In message >, recursor
> > wrote
>
>> http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&p
>> f_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>
>
> Check out the Deep Cryo Treatment link on that page :)

LMAO
"Russ’s thoughts in previous issues of our Connected magazine, you’ll
know that he advocates the freezing of CDs to improve their sound quality"

It seems you can fool some of the [rich] people enough of the time to
make a good living selling ********.

[Woody[_5_]]

"recursor" > wrote in message
o.uk...
> On 12/31/2011 01:47 PM, Alan wrote:
>> In message
>> >, recursor
>> > wrote
>>
>>> http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&p
>>> f_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>>
>>
>> Check out the Deep Cryo Treatment link on that page :)
>
> LMAO
> "Russ’s thoughts in previous issues of our Connected magazine,
> you’ll know that he advocates the freezing of CDs to improve
> their sound quality"
>
> It seems you can fool some of the [rich] people enough of the
> time to make a good living selling ********.



I saw a couple in Comet yesterday buying a 1m HDMI cable for £45.
You should have heard the drivel the 'knowledgeable' salesperson
was spouting.

The damage that such people can do to the TV industry is........
well, words fail me. Mind you if they are daft enough to spend so
much (and it was by no means the cheapest) rather than £4.99 at
B&Q then they deserve it.



--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:44:17 -0000, "Woody"
> wrote:

>I saw a couple in Comet yesterday buying a 1m HDMI cable for £45.
>You should have heard the drivel the 'knowledgeable' salesperson
>was spouting.
>
>The damage that such people can do to the TV industry is........
>well, words fail me. Mind you if they are daft enough to spend so
>much (and it was by no means the cheapest) rather than £4.99 at
>B&Q then they deserve it.
>

I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of months ago.
The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay that much. He asked
what I would give, and I held out a fiver. He was perfectly happy with
the trade. I should have offered a quid.

d

[John Williamson]

Don Pearce wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:44:17 -0000, "Woody"
> > wrote:
>
>> I saw a couple in Comet yesterday buying a 1m HDMI cable for £45.
>> You should have heard the drivel the 'knowledgeable' salesperson
>> was spouting.
>>
>> The damage that such people can do to the TV industry is........
>> well, words fail me. Mind you if they are daft enough to spend so
>> much (and it was by no means the cheapest) rather than £4.99 at
>> B&Q then they deserve it.
>>
>
> I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of months ago.
> The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay that much. He asked
> what I would give, and I held out a fiver. He was perfectly happy with
> the trade. I should have offered a quid.
>
He'd still be mnaking a profit, too, more than likely.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Phil Allison wrote:

>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
>> don't you know anything?

> ** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger
> prints that made the difference.

There quite possibly is some extra market value because of it. However

> Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.

For audiophile grade measurements use them with this:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY

mains cable. Many banks ask you to pay for having money stored in their
system and this mains cable will remedy that problem and thus really be a
saving.

O;-)

> .... Phil

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[William Sommerwerck]

> I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of
> months ago. The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay
> that much. He asked what I would give, and I held out a fiver.
> He was perfectly happy with the trade. I should have offered a quid.

My Pioneer Elite Kuro sits some distance from the player. I needed a 20'
HDMI cable. I bought MCM's house-brand cable for about $15. It works
perfectly, as far as I can tell.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 07:47:44 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
> wrote:

>> I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of
>> months ago. The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay
>> that much. He asked what I would give, and I held out a fiver.
>> He was perfectly happy with the trade. I should have offered a quid.
>
>My Pioneer Elite Kuro sits some distance from the player. I needed a 20'
>HDMI cable. I bought MCM's house-brand cable for about $15. It works
>perfectly, as far as I can tell.
>

I'm sure you'd know instantly if it wasn't working properly.

I wish they would redesign HDMI, though. It suffers from precisely the
same defect as SCART - the cable is too thick and springy, and the
flimsy connector has no detent. Rubbish piece of design.

d

[William Sommerwerck]

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...

> I wish they would redesign HDMI, though. It suffers from precisely the
> same defect as SCART -- the cable is too thick and springy, and the
> flimsy connector has no detent. Rubbish piece of design.

Some are made of limper cable. Not surprisingly, given the thickness, longer
cables tend to be limper, regardless of the material.

I like the lack of a detent. You pull on the cable, and it simply falls out.
You can't cause the display (or other device) to slide or fall over.

[David Looser]

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
>
> I wish they would redesign HDMI, though. It suffers from precisely the
> same defect as SCART - the cable is too thick and springy, and the
> flimsy connector has no detent. Rubbish piece of design.
>
I entirely agree. I wish they'd retained the vastly superior DVI connector
for HDMI, but I guess its that little bit more expensive.

I don't have any confidence in the long-term reliability of the HDMI
connector and the PCB mounted sockets will be almost impossible to replace.
So I predict that plenty of otherwise perfectly servicable bits of kit will
be scrapped just because the HDMI connectors no longer make good reliable
contact.

David.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

David Looser wrote:

> I don't have any confidence in the long-term reliability of the HDMI
> connector and the PCB mounted sockets will be almost impossible to
> replace. So I predict that plenty of otherwise perfectly servicable
> bits of kit will be scrapped just because the HDMI connectors no
> longer make good reliable contact.

I found some specs for harddisk interface cables, the IDE version is
designed for 5000 operations, the SATA version for 50. Divide by 10 since it
is salesmans claims and you get an intense wish of not removing and
replugging a harddisk cable unless you absolutely MUST.

My reason for the googling for this info was my having to discard a brand
new disk because of a clumsy hand move inside the box breaking the plug on
the disk. Fortunately the disk was empty.

> David

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[recursor]

On 12/31/2011 04:57 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
> David Looser wrote:
>
>> I don't have any confidence in the long-term reliability of the HDMI
>> connector and the PCB mounted sockets will be almost impossible to
>> replace. So I predict that plenty of otherwise perfectly servicable
>> bits of kit will be scrapped just because the HDMI connectors no
>> longer make good reliable contact.
>
> I found some specs for harddisk interface cables, the IDE version is
> designed for 5000 operations, the SATA version for 50. Divide by 10 since it
> is salesmans claims and you get an intense wish of not removing and
> replugging a harddisk cable unless you absolutely MUST.
>
> My reason for the googling for this info was my having to discard a brand
> new disk because of a clumsy hand move inside the box breaking the plug on
> the disk. Fortunately the disk was empty.
>
Decent latching SATA cables are ok, unfortunately a lot of the ones
supplied with mobos or ready built boxes are of the cheap non-latching
variety and some of these are hardly good for one insertion/removal cycle.

[John Robertson]

Peter Larsen wrote:
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
>>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
>>> don't you know anything?
>
>> ** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger
>> prints that made the difference.
>
> There quite possibly is some extra market value because of it. However
>
>> Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.
>
> For audiophile grade measurements use them with this:
>
> http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>
> mains cable. Many banks ask you to pay for having money stored in their
> system and this mains cable will remedy that problem and thus really be a
> saving.
>
> O;-)
>
>> .... Phil
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
>
>

How do they deal with the mains conductors back to the community
step-down transformer?

I suspect there is money to be mined in fixing the power input to the
high-end fools that buy these power cords.

"What if I can’t remove my mains lead? Cut off the mains cable about 3
inches (7.5cm) from where it enters your equipment and wire on a male
IEC plug as shown. " ROTFLMAO!

For further amusement read the Burn-In extra (only £15) feature because
otherwise you may have to wait over 500 hours to hear any difference
with your new power cord or silver RCA cords!

Fuses 13A made to BS-1362 standards (required by law in the UK for mains
fuses)...reading the notes about these £15.75 (pack of five) fuses that
everyone else sells for £1.25 (pack of four).

---------------------(quote)------------------------
You may notice that we cover the screw on some of our mains cables with
a 'Warranty - Void if Removed' sticker. This is to discourage people
from tampering with the cable in the plug. It's very difficult to work
with and we had a number of instances where people had tried to
de-solder their cables from the plug, ended up with a terrible mess and
sent it back to us to sort out. If you need to reterminate your cables,
we only charge a nominal retermination fee and you keep your warranty.

We appreciate, however that you need to destroy this label when you
replace the fuse with our new Russ Andrews fuses. You will not void your
warranty if you simply replace the fuse. Russ Andrews fuses are supplied
with 'Fitted with Russ Andrews Fuse' stickers to fit over the existing
warranty label. If you replace the fuse and then stick the new label
over the old warranty label, we'll know that you've simply replaced the
fuse if you return the cable for upgrade or repair in the future. It's
also a useful way for you to know which cables you've upgraded with a
better fuse!
------------------------(end quote)---------------

(shaking head sadly)

I'm obviously in the wrong end of things - I offer tech tips to save
people money and to try and teach them how to maintain their toys.

John ;-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[recursor]

On 12/31/2011 06:41 PM, John Robertson wrote:
> Peter Larsen wrote:
>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>>>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
>>>> don't you know anything?
>>
>>> ** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger
>>> prints that made the difference.
>>
>> There quite possibly is some extra market value because of it. However
>>
>>> Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.
>>
>> For audiophile grade measurements use them with this:
>>
>> http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>>
>>
>> mains cable. Many banks ask you to pay for having money stored in
>> their system and this mains cable will remedy that problem and thus
>> really be a saving.
>>
>> O;-)
>>
>>> .... Phil
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Peter Larsen
>>
>>
>>
>
> How do they deal with the mains conductors back to the community
> step-down transformer?
>
> I suspect there is money to be mined in fixing the power input to the
> high-end fools that buy these power cords.
>
> "What if I can’t remove my mains lead? Cut off the mains cable about 3
> inches (7.5cm) from where it enters your equipment and wire on a male
> IEC plug as shown. " ROTFLMAO!
>
> For further amusement read the Burn-In extra (only £15) feature because
> otherwise you may have to wait over 500 hours to hear any difference
> with your new power cord or silver RCA cords!
>
> Fuses 13A made to BS-1362 standards (required by law in the UK for mains
> fuses)...reading the notes about these £15.75 (pack of five) fuses that
> everyone else sells for £1.25 (pack of four).
>
> ---------------------(quote)------------------------
> You may notice that we cover the screw on some of our mains cables with
> a 'Warranty - Void if Removed' sticker. This is to discourage people
> from tampering with the cable in the plug. It's very difficult to work
> with and we had a number of instances where people had tried to
> de-solder their cables from the plug, ended up with a terrible mess and
> sent it back to us to sort out. If you need to reterminate your cables,
> we only charge a nominal retermination fee and you keep your warranty.
>
> We appreciate, however that you need to destroy this label when you
> replace the fuse with our new Russ Andrews fuses. You will not void your
> warranty if you simply replace the fuse. Russ Andrews fuses are supplied
> with 'Fitted with Russ Andrews Fuse' stickers to fit over the existing
> warranty label. If you replace the fuse and then stick the new label
> over the old warranty label, we'll know that you've simply replaced the
> fuse if you return the cable for upgrade or repair in the future. It's
> also a useful way for you to know which cables you've upgraded with a
> better fuse!
> ------------------------(end quote)---------------
>
> (shaking head sadly)
>
> I'm obviously in the wrong end of things - I offer tech tips to save
> people money and to try and teach them how to maintain their toys.
>

That's why you live in a hovel and Russ Andrews lives in a mansion. :)

[John Robertson]

recursor wrote:
> On 12/31/2011 06:41 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>> Peter Larsen wrote:
>>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
>>>>> don't you know anything?
>>>
>>>> ** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger
>>>> prints that made the difference.
>>>
>>> There quite possibly is some extra market value because of it. However
>>>
>>>> Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.
>>>
>>> For audiophile grade measurements use them with this:
>>>
>>> http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> mains cable. Many banks ask you to pay for having money stored in
>>> their system and this mains cable will remedy that problem and thus
>>> really be a saving.
>>>
>>> O;-)
>>>
>>>> .... Phil
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Peter Larsen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How do they deal with the mains conductors back to the community
>> step-down transformer?
>>
>> I suspect there is money to be mined in fixing the power input to the
>> high-end fools that buy these power cords.
>>
>> "What if I can’t remove my mains lead? Cut off the mains cable about 3
>> inches (7.5cm) from where it enters your equipment and wire on a male
>> IEC plug as shown. " ROTFLMAO!
>>
>> For further amusement read the Burn-In extra (only £15) feature because
>> otherwise you may have to wait over 500 hours to hear any difference
>> with your new power cord or silver RCA cords!
>>
>> Fuses 13A made to BS-1362 standards (required by law in the UK for mains
>> fuses)...reading the notes about these £15.75 (pack of five) fuses that
>> everyone else sells for £1.25 (pack of four).
>>
>> ---------------------(quote)------------------------
>> You may notice that we cover the screw on some of our mains cables with
>> a 'Warranty - Void if Removed' sticker. This is to discourage people
>> from tampering with the cable in the plug. It's very difficult to work
>> with and we had a number of instances where people had tried to
>> de-solder their cables from the plug, ended up with a terrible mess and
>> sent it back to us to sort out. If you need to reterminate your cables,
>> we only charge a nominal retermination fee and you keep your warranty.
>>
>> We appreciate, however that you need to destroy this label when you
>> replace the fuse with our new Russ Andrews fuses. You will not void your
>> warranty if you simply replace the fuse. Russ Andrews fuses are supplied
>> with 'Fitted with Russ Andrews Fuse' stickers to fit over the existing
>> warranty label. If you replace the fuse and then stick the new label
>> over the old warranty label, we'll know that you've simply replaced the
>> fuse if you return the cable for upgrade or repair in the future. It's
>> also a useful way for you to know which cables you've upgraded with a
>> better fuse!
>> ------------------------(end quote)---------------
>>
>> (shaking head sadly)
>>
>> I'm obviously in the wrong end of things - I offer tech tips to save
>> people money and to try and teach them how to maintain their toys.
>>
>
> That's why you live in a hovel and Russ Andrews lives in a mansion. :)

I can't believe the stuff he puts on his site...

"Upgrade your NAD or Marantz amplifier links

If your integrated amp has separate pre- and power sections connected by
brass or gold plated links between the RCA sockets (eg. NAD and Marantz
amplifiers), improve its performance by upgrading the links.

Our Amp Jumpers made with KIMBER Timbre interconnect are perfect!"

So Marantz doesn't know that silver is a better conductor than gold
jumpers? What is wrong with their engineers? They obviously need to
talkto Russ about improving their amps, get rid of those lousy gold
plated jacks and replace them with silver...now and then you can pull
out the silver polish to deal with the minor nuisance of oxidization
(which, oddly enough, doesn't happen with gold connectors). I couldn't
find the special silver polish though on the site. Must be there
somewhere @ £astronomical. After all non-audiofool silver polish
wouldn't be good enough for these plugs!

Well, time to get to the real world...now where did I put it?

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[recursor]

On 12/31/2011 08:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
> recursor wrote:
>> On 12/31/2011 06:41 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>>> Peter Larsen wrote:
>>>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
>>>>>> don't you know anything?
>>>>
>>>>> ** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger
>>>>> prints that made the difference.
>>>>
>>>> There quite possibly is some extra market value because of it. However
>>>>
>>>>> Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.
>>>>
>>>> For audiophile grade measurements use them with this:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> mains cable. Many banks ask you to pay for having money stored in
>>>> their system and this mains cable will remedy that problem and thus
>>>> really be a saving.
>>>>
>>>> O;-)
>>>>
>>>>> .... Phil
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>>
>>>> Peter Larsen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How do they deal with the mains conductors back to the community
>>> step-down transformer?
>>>
>>> I suspect there is money to be mined in fixing the power input to the
>>> high-end fools that buy these power cords.
>>>
>>> "What if I can’t remove my mains lead? Cut off the mains cable about 3
>>> inches (7.5cm) from where it enters your equipment and wire on a male
>>> IEC plug as shown. " ROTFLMAO!
>>>
>>> For further amusement read the Burn-In extra (only £15) feature because
>>> otherwise you may have to wait over 500 hours to hear any difference
>>> with your new power cord or silver RCA cords!
>>>
>>> Fuses 13A made to BS-1362 standards (required by law in the UK for mains
>>> fuses)...reading the notes about these £15.75 (pack of five) fuses that
>>> everyone else sells for £1.25 (pack of four).
>>>
>>> ---------------------(quote)------------------------
>>> You may notice that we cover the screw on some of our mains cables with
>>> a 'Warranty - Void if Removed' sticker. This is to discourage people
>>> from tampering with the cable in the plug. It's very difficult to work
>>> with and we had a number of instances where people had tried to
>>> de-solder their cables from the plug, ended up with a terrible mess and
>>> sent it back to us to sort out. If you need to reterminate your cables,
>>> we only charge a nominal retermination fee and you keep your warranty.
>>>
>>> We appreciate, however that you need to destroy this label when you
>>> replace the fuse with our new Russ Andrews fuses. You will not void your
>>> warranty if you simply replace the fuse. Russ Andrews fuses are supplied
>>> with 'Fitted with Russ Andrews Fuse' stickers to fit over the existing
>>> warranty label. If you replace the fuse and then stick the new label
>>> over the old warranty label, we'll know that you've simply replaced the
>>> fuse if you return the cable for upgrade or repair in the future. It's
>>> also a useful way for you to know which cables you've upgraded with a
>>> better fuse!
>>> ------------------------(end quote)---------------
>>>
>>> (shaking head sadly)
>>>
>>> I'm obviously in the wrong end of things - I offer tech tips to save
>>> people money and to try and teach them how to maintain their toys.
>>>
>>
>> That's why you live in a hovel and Russ Andrews lives in a mansion. :)
>
> I can't believe the stuff he puts on his site...
>
> "Upgrade your NAD or Marantz amplifier links
>
> If your integrated amp has separate pre- and power sections connected by
> brass or gold plated links between the RCA sockets (eg. NAD and Marantz
> amplifiers), improve its performance by upgrading the links.
>
> Our Amp Jumpers made with KIMBER Timbre interconnect are perfect!"
>
> So Marantz doesn't know that silver is a better conductor than gold
> jumpers? What is wrong with their engineers? They obviously need to
> talkto Russ about improving their amps, get rid of those lousy gold
> plated jacks and replace them with silver...now and then you can pull
> out the silver polish to deal with the minor nuisance of oxidization
> (which, oddly enough, doesn't happen with gold connectors). I couldn't
> find the special silver polish though on the site. Must be there
> somewhere @ £astronomical. After all non-audiofool silver polish
> wouldn't be good enough for these plugs!
>
> Well, time to get to the real world...now where did I put it?
>
It probably slipped down the back of the sofa. Still if nothing else
Russ has disproved the idea that all the rich are somehow *clever* and
*deserve* their wealth.

[Michael A. Terrell]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> > I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of
> > months ago. The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay
> > that much. He asked what I would give, and I held out a fiver.
> > He was perfectly happy with the trade. I should have offered a quid.
>
> My Pioneer Elite Kuro sits some distance from the player. I needed a 20'
> HDMI cable. I bought MCM's house-brand cable for about $15. It works
> perfectly, as far as I can tell.


I bought a 10' HDMI cable for $3.49 US on Ebay, delivered to move the
Sat receiver in my dad & step mom's bedroom. He was afraid that he or
my step mom would knock it, or the TV off of the chest of drawers. He
was skeptical because the local stores wanted $45 but when I stopped by
to install it, it worked perfectly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270822459001


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Alan wrote:
>
> In message >, recursor
> > wrote
>
> >http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&p
> >f_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>
> Check out the Deep Cryo Treatment link on that page :)


Another 'Snow Job'?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[David Looser]

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>> I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of
>> months ago. The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay
>> that much. He asked what I would give, and I held out a fiver.
>> He was perfectly happy with the trade. I should have offered a quid.
>
> My Pioneer Elite Kuro sits some distance from the player. I needed a 20'
> HDMI cable. I bought MCM's house-brand cable for about $15. It works
> perfectly, as far as I can tell.
>
>

I needed to run an HDMI connection from one room to another, so I bought a
couple of passive HDMI wallplates that simply break-out the HDMI pins to a
couple of IDC blocks which are then interconnected with two runs of Cat5
cable. With a run a about 15m between the wallplates this works flawlessly
with 1080p video.

David.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Phil Allison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Arny Krueger"
>>
>> I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
>> Domain measurement systems for market.
>>
>> The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
>> Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
>> Hachette Publications property stickers on them.
>
>
> ** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?
>
> Anyhow - here's a pic of one:
>
> http://www.nessales.com/ebay/13318/Audio%20Precision%20System%20One%20Optical%20IO%20 Pic%20(0).JPG
>

That looks very much like one of the two units I have been working with. It
is the later model with optical digital I/O. The earlier version is
coax-based and used RCA jacks.

[[email protected]]

The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
frequencies.

In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

[Richard Tobin]

In article >,
> wrote:

>If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
>outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

-- Richard

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

>

> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.


** Only if we were serious AUDIOPHOOLs - that is.

Home hi-fi installations can suffer from earth loop hum and transformer
radiated hum fields - neither of which is fixed by using "balanced power".



.... Phil

[Eiron[_2_]]

On 03/01/2012 00:50, wrote:
> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
> least the dumbest I have ever run into.

From what I've seen, they are the best and safest standards of any country.
Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver into an outlet.

What's your problem with it? And how many of your American plugs are
hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and intermittent connections?

--
Eiron.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Eiron" > wrote in message
...
: On 03/01/2012 00:50, wrote:
: > The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet,
or at
: > least the dumbest I have ever run into.
:
: From what I've seen, they are the best and safest standards of
any country.
: Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver into
an outlet.

A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to
these plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"

A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I like
that..."

A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt
daddy, why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what ever
else is on the circuit) stopped working?"

:
: What's your problem with it? And how many of your American
plugs are
: hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and intermittent
connections?
:

Indeed, the North America attitude to electrical hardware is a
farce (only of the reasons why they are still plagued by high
numbers of electrical fires), but then so is the UK's BS* 1363
standard for plug/sockets, only in the UK -and those countries
that have copied the UK- is the final circuit protection so
designed that it is easy (for the end user) to defeat it either
through ignorance or wilful tampering, thus a device requiring
protection at 3 or 5 amps co so easily end up being actually
protected at 13 amps - or 30 amps in the case of wilful
tampering...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[David Looser]

> wrote in message
...
> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
> least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
> are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
> frequencies.
>
> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard in
this regard. The standard of electrical installations I've seen in the US
are far worse than those normally encountered here. And the high-powered
audio equipment I've seen in the US runs off 120V thus supplies requiring
heavy-guage mains flex. Definitely no improvement on what we have here!

David.

[David Looser]

"Jerry" > wrote

> : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver into
> an outlet.
>
> A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to
> these plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
>
> A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I like
> that..."
>
> A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt
> daddy, why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what ever
> else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
>
UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?
> :
> : What's your problem with it? And how many of your American
> plugs are
> : hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and intermittent
> connections?
> :
>
> Indeed, the North America attitude to electrical hardware is a
> farce

Agreed.

> (only of the reasons why they are still plagued by high
> numbers of electrical fires), but then so is the UK's BS* 1363
> standard for plug/sockets, only in the UK -and those countries
> that have copied the UK- is the final circuit protection so
> designed that it is easy (for the end user) to defeat it either
> through ignorance or wilful tampering, thus a device requiring
> protection at 3 or 5 amps co so easily end up being actually
> protected at 13 amps - or 30 amps in the case of wilful
> tampering...
> --

Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any worse here than
in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets? I was amazed to find in a modern
house in Italy that I stayed in this summer that all the sockets
(unshuttered and each rated at 10A with fuseless plugs) on each floor were
supplied from a single 25A MCB. How is that safer than the situation here?

David.

[Eiron[_2_]]

On 03/01/2012 10:39, David Looser wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
>> least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
>> are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
>> frequencies.
>>
>> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
>> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
>> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
>> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
>> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.
>
> A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
> just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
> audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard in
> this regard.

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

--
Eiron.

[John Williamson]

Eiron wrote:
> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>
http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html

Problem solved. HTH

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Eiron[_2_]]

On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
> Eiron wrote:
>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>
> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>
>
> Problem solved. HTH

Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

--
Eiron.

[David Looser]

"Eiron" > wrote in message
...
>
> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

I'm not sure it is so dumb
There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was
that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these
new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits
(230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.
>
> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>
I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there
was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

David.

[John Williamson]

Eiron wrote:
> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
>> Eiron wrote:
>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>>
>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Problem solved. HTH
>
> Still not in production?
> Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
>
Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm

Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" > wrote
:
: > : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver
into
: > an outlet.
: >
: > A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to
: > these plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
: >
: > A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I
like
: > that..."
: >
: > A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt
: > daddy, why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
ever
: > else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
: >
: UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?

Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as
can happen, and thus that nice 'safe' electrical outlet becomes
(unknowingly) totally unprotected from such intrusion... Did you
actually bother to read what I said?

: > :
: > : What's your problem with it? And how many of your American
: > plugs are
: > : hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and
intermittent
: > connections?
: > :
: >
: > Indeed, the North America attitude to electrical hardware is
a
: > farce
:
: Agreed.
:
: > (only of the reasons why they are still plagued by high
: > numbers of electrical fires), but then so is the UK's BS*
1363
: > standard for plug/sockets, only in the UK -and those
countries
: > that have copied the UK- is the final circuit protection so
: > designed that it is easy (for the end user) to defeat it
either
: > through ignorance or wilful tampering, thus a device
requiring
: > protection at 3 or 5 amps co so easily end up being actually
: > protected at 13 amps - or 30 amps in the case of wilful
: > tampering...
:
: Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any
worse here than
: in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets? I was amazed to
find in a modern
: house in Italy that I stayed in this summer that all the
sockets
: (unshuttered and each rated at 10A with fuseless plugs) on each
floor were
: supplied from a single 25A MCB. How is that safer than the
situation here?
:

But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be
protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person
using the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
3A. Again I suspect that you didn't actually read (and
understand) what I said...

[Andy Burns]

John Williamson wrote:

> Eiron wrote:
>
>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>
> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>
> Problem solved. HTH

I doubt that design will ever fly ...

I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
retractable ...

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> Eiron wrote:
> > On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
> >> Eiron wrote:
> >>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> >>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
> >>>
> >> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Problem solved. HTH
> >
> > Still not in production?
> > Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
> > Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
> >
> Or this:-
>
> http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
>

404 Not Found

Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
you ...?

--

Terry

[Andy Burns]

Eiron wrote:

> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
>
>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>
> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

I think that sums it up, nice idea but ...

[John Williamson]

Terry Casey wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>> Eiron wrote:
>>> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
>>>> Eiron wrote:
>>>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>>>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Problem solved. HTH
>>> Still not in production?
>>> Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
>>> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
>>>
>> Or this:-
>>
>> http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
>>
>
> 404 Not Found
>
> Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
> you ...?
>
Go to:-
http://www.slimplug.com/

And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"John Williamson" > wrote in
message ...
: Eiron wrote:
: > On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
: >> Eiron wrote:
: >>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid
criticism.
: >>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
: >>>
: >>
http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >> Problem solved. HTH
: >
: > Still not in production?
: > Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
: > Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
: >
: Or this:-
:
: http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
:
: Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.
:

Why not use a flat two pin "Euro plug" and travel converter, yes
I know that the travel converter is not exactly flat but it's
slimmer than the UK's BS 1363 plug.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:

> There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened
> was that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But
> these new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these
> new limits (230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.

The proposed 230v +/- 10% never happened and isn't likely to. The
current tolerance is 230v -6% +10% (216 to 253v)

> German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
> socket here,

A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Eiron wrote:
>
> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
different systems) remained.

Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s.

Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used
in both places had a switch on the back.

The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the
old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in
the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250)

There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there
could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently
hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all.
:-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

David Looser wrote:

> I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there
> was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
> that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
> German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
> socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
the outlet.

Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
in the center and below them like this:

O O
O

The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
first.

For "double insulated" devices that do not come with a ground pin, the standard
EU 2 pin plug fits fine.

There is no reason that the outlets could not be sold with shutters and or
fuses, or the fuse holders built into the plug body.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

[Graham.]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:43:43 +0000, John Williamson
> wrote:

>Terry Casey wrote:
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>> Eiron wrote:
>>>> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
>>>>> Eiron wrote:
>>>>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>>>>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Problem solved. HTH
>>>> Still not in production?
>>>> Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
>>>> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
>>>>
>>> Or this:-
>>>
>>> http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
>>>
>>
>> 404 Not Found
>>
>> Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
>> you ...?
>>
>Go to:-
>http://www.slimplug.com/
>
>And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

It's not odd, it ends in html not htm.
I am less confident about posting this to five groups, let's see.


--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
: The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled
to London
: in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical
systems in use
: in various parts of the city. By that time they had been
standardized to
: 240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different
ones for
: different systems) remained.

Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
(certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

I suppose that some building with their own (derived/generated)
power supplies might have had (still have) 'odd' systems to suit
their own needs, an exception rather than the rule.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Eiron[_2_]]

On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Williamson wrote:
>
>> Eiron wrote:
>>
>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>>
>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>>
>>
>> Problem solved. HTH
>
> I doubt that design will ever fly ...
>
> I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
> retractable ...
>
> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-)

--
Eiron.

[Andy Burns]

Eiron wrote:

> On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html
>
> That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
> non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
> you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-)

Bit more info on their website, turn your speakers off for the video
though ...

http://www.thinplug.com/thinplug/thinplug_video/1

[Davey]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:59:03 +0000 (UTC)
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" > wrote:

> David Looser wrote:
>
> > I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago
> > there was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug &
> > socket, an attempt that failed because of the NIH
> > (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the German 'Shucko'
> > socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here,
> > but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)
>
> Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all
> the way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent
> spring in the outlet.
>
> Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round
> pins like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
> ground pin in the center and below them like this:
>
> O O
> O
>
> The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes
> contact first.
>
Why have the ground pin below the power pins? If anything falls on a
partially inserted plug, then it will hit the power pins and produce a
short, whereas if the ground pin was on top, it would be the one
that was hit, and would be safer. It might even just bounce off with no
sound and light effects.
During my time in the US, I saw both methods used indiscriminately,
although the way you show was, oddly, the official one.
--
Davey.

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Jerry wrote:

>
> Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
> (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
> before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
> thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
> sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old ones.

By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

> wrote in message
...
> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
> least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
> are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
> frequencies.
>
> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

Some modern power amps will produce appreciably more power when fed 240 as
opposed to 120. It's all about what you can pass through a 20 amp fuse. That
all said, this would be more important on the test bench amplifying test
tones, as opposed to in the listening room amplifying music due to the
dynamic and multitone nature of music.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
>> least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
>> are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
>> frequencies.
>>
>> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
>> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
>> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
>> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
>> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.
>
> A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
> just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
> audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard
> in this regard. The standard of electrical installations I've seen in the
> US are far worse than those normally encountered here. And the
> high-powered audio equipment I've seen in the US runs off 120V thus
> supplies requiring heavy-guage mains flex. Definitely no improvement on
> what we have here!

All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in Germany,
I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in, due to the ease
with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch the contacts.

[Jim Lesurf[_2_]]

In article >, Jerry
> wrote:

> "David Looser" > wrote in message
> ...
> : "Jerry" > wrote
> :
> : > : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver
> into
> : > an outlet.
> : >
> : > A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to these
> : > plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
> : >
> : > A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I
> like
> : > that..."
> : >
> : > A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt daddy,
> : > why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
> ever
> : > else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
> : >
> : UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?

> Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as can
> happen,

Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it? I can't
recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket fail open on
any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they fail?

> : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any
> worse here than
> : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?

> But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be
> protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person using
> the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct 3A.

How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using fuse wire (of
any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for decades. is that
what you are referring to? Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
being a significant problem?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, John Williamson
> writes:
>Eiron wrote:
>> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
>>> Eiron wrote:
>>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_Sy
>>>stem.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Problem solved. HTH
>> Still not in production?
>> Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
>> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

I think this design has been given a very hard time. The criticisms may
be valid, but let them try to sort out the problems, rather than being
nasty about the idea. I think there's an awful lot of
NIH/I-wish-I'd-thought-of-that in the criticisms.
>>
>Or this:-
>
>http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
>
>Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.
>
I have two, and they work well. (Still bulkier than the above though.)
I'm still a bit puzzled, however, that they were allowed to sell them
with a two-pin (actually socket) to three adapter.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, David Looser
> writes:
>"Eiron" > wrote in message
...
[]
>There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was
>that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these
>new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits
>(230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.
>>
>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>
>I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there

It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it, yes - and
also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely available
are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_ get in
BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it - is too high for most
electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are fused actually
gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings are so
high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead (or power
cord, as it's called in US) itself.

>was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
>that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
>German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
>socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

I feel the same, but I suspect it's because it's what I grew up with (in
British army quarters in Germany, which used German fixtures and
fittings). [i]
>
>David.
>
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Jim Lesurf" > wrote in message
...
: In article >, Jerry
: > wrote:
:
: > "David Looser" > wrote in message
: > ...
: > : "Jerry" > wrote
: > :
: > : > : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a
screwdriver
: > into
: > : > an outlet.
: > : >
: > : > A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things
in to these
: > : > plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
: > : >
: > : > A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that
I
: > like
: > : > that..."
: > : >
: > : > A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That
hurt daddy,
: > : > why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
: > ever
: > : > else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
: > : >
: > : UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?
:
: > Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter
fails, as can
: > happen,
:
: Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?
I can't

Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!


: recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket
fail open on
: any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they
fail?

None, just personal experience of having to change such sockets,
either fixed or trailing (the same safety concerns exist with
both).

:
: > : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are
any
: > worse here than
: > : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?
:
: > But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
actually be
: > protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
person using
: > the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
3A.
:
: How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using
fuse wire (of
: any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
decades. is that
: what you are referring to?

No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same diameter as
the BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot
can do it, they probably will, I have seen many silly things done
to BS1363 plugs that I have rarely seen/heard happening to a
fuse/breaker panel because even such idiots tend to draw the line
if they need to get more than a (pen-)knife from the kitchen
draw.

Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
: being a significant problem?
:

Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all (non
wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has to
now come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse? Clue, it
wasn't for the purchasers convenience...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message .uk>, Dave
Liquorice > writes:
>On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:
[]
>> German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
>> socket here,
>
>A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.
>
Yes, but it somehow _feels_ smaller.

It also - one of the major disadvantages of the common forms of the
BS1363 one, and for some reason rarely mentioned in discussions like
these - doesn't naturally settle, when unplugged, into a form that's
hazardous to bare feet (-:! [The Schuko _is_ available with side cable
entry, but even those ones don't tend to lie pins up.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson > writes:
[]
>Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
>way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
>the outlet.

Hmm, I don't remember seeing the spring ever bent (it's quite a
substantial piece of metal), though I can see it _could_ happen,
especially with abuse.

As for which connects first, I can't say for sure, but I used to find
the sockets - in which the whole socket is recessed - far more
reassuring than the British flush ones, in which one could touch the
pins; OK, the British one was redesigned such that the pins have to be
shrouded, but that happened much later, and I can certainly remember
when unshrouded was the norm (sometime in the 1970s?). [The shrouding
must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see earlier
comments about the ratings being far more than required for most
appliances anyway, (b) I was once told that it is the contact area
rather than the cross-sectional which is likely to be a problem.
(Thinking about the wire attached, that's probably true.)]
>
>Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
>like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
>in the center and below them like this:
>
> O O
> O
>
>The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
>first.
[]
I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

[Jerry[_5_]]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" > wrote in
message ...

[re the BS 1363 plug ]
<snip>
: must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see
earlier
: comments about the ratings being far more than required for
most
: appliances anyway,

But the contact pins are not really over size, remember that
their maximum current rating has to be 30A, not 13A.

: >
: >Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two
round pins
: >like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
ground pin
: >in the center and below them like this:
: >
: > O O
: > O
: >
: >The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin
makes contact
: >first.
: []
: I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as
the
: "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is
actually a
: socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to
plug in
: a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

Yes, but just think about some idiot terminating the wires in the
wall plate incorrectly...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[J G Miller]

On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

> I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
> "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
> socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
> a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

<http://www.marque-nf.COM/>

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

[John Williamson]

J G Miller wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:
>
>> I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
>> "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
>> socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
>> a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!
>
> As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
> is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)
>
> <http://www.marque-nf.COM/>
>
> It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.
>
> This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
> and also Belgium and the Netherlands.
>
> Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
> earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
> enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
> states.
>
> And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
> something different completely.

So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
which wire is live.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Scott[_9_]]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:09:01 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller >
wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:
>
>> I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
>> "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
>> socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
>> a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

But no fuse. I like the idea of putting the fuse in the plug so if
one appliance fails you don't 'fuse' the whole circuit (though with
RCDs I'm not sure that still applies).
>
>As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
>is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)
>
> <http://www.marque-nf.COM/>
>
>It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.
>
>This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
>and also Belgium and the Netherlands.
>
>Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
>earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
>enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
>states.
>
>And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
>something different completely.

[Max Demian]

"Eiron" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:
>> John Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> Eiron wrote:
>>>
>>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>>>
>>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Problem solved. HTH
>>
>> I doubt that design will ever fly ...
>>
>> I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
>> retractable ...
>>
>> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html
>
> That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
> non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
> you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-)

If it breaks off inside the socket you will just have to use the same socket
all the time.

--
Max Demian

[Max Demian]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" > wrote in message
...
> Jerry wrote:
>> Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
>> (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
>> before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
>> thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
>> sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?
>
> That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old
> ones.
>
> By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
> in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

That was so Curry's could charge you an extra £1 for the plug. Or drag the
equipment round to Woolworth's and get one for 50p.

--
Max Demian

[The Other Mike]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
>
>If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
>electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
>amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
>flywheel.

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.


--

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, John Williamson
> writes:
[]
>So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
>plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
>which wire is live.
>
That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most
(all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
dangerous to me.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson > writes:
>Eiron wrote:
>>
>> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
>> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
>> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
>> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!
>
>No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
>continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
>was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

(Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
mains.)
>
>The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
>in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
>in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
>240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
>different systems) remained.

Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
for some decades by then.

There _had_ been assorted sized plugs with three (round) pins, but the
different sizes were purely for current (2A - rare, mainly in shop
windows - for lighting, and 5, 10, and 15A for other appliances), they
all ran on 240/50.

As for bulbs, the four main types - large and small bayonet, and large
and small Edison screw - had all been on 240/50 since well before 1970.
Large bayonet was almost universal anyway; large Edison screw being the
norm in most of western Europe. The bayonet fitting - especially with
Bakelite and even most later thermosetting plastics - tends to become
brittle and bits break off with the continuous heat produced by a
lightbulb; nevertheless, it is still the overwhelmingly commonest
fitting.
>
>Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s.
>
>Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used
>in both places had a switch on the back.

Or a tapping you moved (on a transformer, or dropper resistor, though
those were declining).
>
>The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the
>old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in
>the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250)
>
>There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there
>could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently
>hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all.
>:-)
>
>Geoff.
>
Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
interconnectors are actually at DC (and I believe longer cables, such as
those to Scandinavia if there are any, are too); there are rectification
plants, I think one being in or near Hawkinge. (Not sure how they
convert it back to AC.) [I've also been told that, despite the public
being told it is bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different
times as we take our main meals at different times, in practice it has
never operated in the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction,
other than for test purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Arny Krueger > wrote:
> All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in
> Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in,
> due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch
> the contacts.

That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of their length -
only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket outlets
have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent your fingers
slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
> interconnectors are actually at DC

Correct.

> [I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is
> bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take
> our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in
> the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test
> purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]

Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure
over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental
interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just
burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few
days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke
power...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[J G Miller]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC
> (and I believe longer cables, such as those to Scandinavia
> if there are any, are too)

Here is a useful map of HVDC interconnections.

<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/HVDC_Europe_annotated.svg>

RED existing

GREEN under construction

BLUE tentative, plans provisional

Scotland could be linked to Iceland!

[Dave Platt]

>>If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
>>electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
>>amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
>>flywheel.

>Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.

.... with a turntable plinth made of neutronium... properly flinched,
of course.

--
Dave Platt > AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

[David Looser]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> > writes:
>>Eiron wrote:
>>>
>>> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
>>> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
>>> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
>>> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!
>>
>>No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
>>continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
>>was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.
>
> (Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
> 50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
> mains.)
>>

Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French
had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war,
famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration.
After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an
819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on
625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ).

In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still
at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V
but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz.

David.

[David Looser]

"Jerry" > wrote
>
> Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
> BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
> sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
> supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
> manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
>

And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you might have hoped
to acquire!

David.

[David Looser]

"John Williamson" > wrote
>
> So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian plug
> will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know which
> wire is live.
>

I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A plug has 3
thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided by the pins,
so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the weight of the
flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern) installation I saw
large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or circuit breaker
of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.

David.

[David Looser]

"The Other Mike" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>>
>>If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
>>electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
>>amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
>>flywheel.
>

In the 1920s and 1930s many "audiophiles" did indeed run their amplifiers
and radio receivers on lead-acid batteries as it was believed to be
impossible to make mains operated equipment totally hum-free (of course
those who lived in rural areas often didn't have the choice).

The original Western Electric cinema sound equipment used lead-acid
batteries for the exciter lamp and the early stages of the amplifier. Dual
batteries were provided so that one set could be on charge whilst the other
was in use.

David.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" > wrote
: >
: > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
UK's
: > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types
of
: > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
: > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents
to
: > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
: >
:
: And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
might have hoped
: to acquire!
:

Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in
gratuitous effect?
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
: I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
plug has 3
: thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
by the pins,
: so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
weight of the
: flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
installation I saw
: large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
circuit breaker
: of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
:

But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
practises?

Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
something unsafe. As long as the rating of the socket or
conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
conductor used in these Italian instillations...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jim Lesurf[_2_]]

In article >, Jerry
> wrote:

> "Jim Lesurf" > wrote in message
> ...
> : In article >, Jerry
> : > wrote:

[Snip]

> :
> : Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?


> Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's BS1363
> plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of sockets,

So no stats on either.


> : > But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
> actually be
> : > protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
> person using
> : > the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
> 3A.
> :
> : How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using
> fuse wire (of
> : any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
> decades. is that
> : what you are referring to?

> No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same diameter as the
> BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot can do it,
> they probably will,

Again, not really comparative stats.

> Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
> : being a significant problem?
> :

> Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all (non
> wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has to now
> come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse?

Why do you thing that asking a question is a substitute for having the
relevant statistical data to compare the outcomes for different systems? If
the UK system "wasn't for consumer convenience" then your implication is
that is was for some other reason - e.g. safety. Hence arguing against your
earlier implication that shuttering hasn't any value.

I appreciate you have loads of opinions. But I was asking if you had any
reliable stats.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> "J. P. Gilliver (John)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In message >, Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> > > writes:
> >>Eiron wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
> >>> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
> >>> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
> >>> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!
> >>
> >>No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
> >>continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
> >>was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.
> >
> > (Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
> > 50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
> > mains.)
> >>
>
> Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French
> had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war,
> famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration.
> After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an
> 819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on
> 625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ).
>
> In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still
> at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V
> but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz.
>

In Italy, in 1964, a friend found that his electric razor wouldn't work,
so he switched it to 110V. Problem solved!

When he finished shaving, he complained his razor seemed to be getting
unusually hot. I looked up at the nearest light bulb and noted that it
said 130V!

--

Terry

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Arny Krueger > wrote:
: > All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's
stay in
: > Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged
anything in,
: > due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug
and touch
: > the contacts.
:
: That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
their length -
: only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket
outlets
: have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent
your fingers
: slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.
:

Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs
having finger stops whilst un-switched sockets are actually very
common than Mr Plowman suggests, especially in 'to a price' built
housing, such as local authority, starter and MOD stock or were
the idea is to discourage disconnection of the appliances, such
as fridges, freezers or VCRs etc.

So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
in existence and use.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Terry Casey]

In article .uk>,
says...
>
> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>
> > Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
> > interconnectors are actually at DC
>
> Correct.
>
> > [I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is
> > bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take
> > our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in
> > the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test
> > purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]
>
> Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure
> over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental
> interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just
> burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few
> days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke
> power...

Yes. A consequence of Merkel's knee-jerk reaction to the Japanese
tsunami by shutting down the nuclear plant and getting caught with her
knickers down when the lack of wind stopped all the windmills. I think
it was the first time that the UK had been a net exporter of
electricity.

Take a look here:

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Look at the graph for November (bottom right).

I wonder how Germany will fare if we get a repeat performance but with
much lower temperatures all over Europe so that all other countries need
all of their energy to supply their own needs?

--

Terry

[JW]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:27:13 +0000 The Other Mike
> wrote in Message id:
>:

>On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC),
>(Richard Tobin) wrote:
>>
>>If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
>>electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
>>amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
>>flywheel.
>
>Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.

How about carving a flywheel from a black hole?
(Getting it rotating may be problematic, though...)

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Jerry" > wrote in message
...
:
<snip>
:
: Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
: electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
: experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
: late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs

Oops, late '70s/early 80s...

[Jerry[_5_]]

"brightside S9" > wrote in message
...
: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:41:21 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller
>
: wrote:
:
<snip>
: >
: >Scotland could be linked to Iceland!
:
: Getting ready for independance don't you know.
:

That figures, two economic basket cases...

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> In message >, Geoffrey S.
> Mendelson > writes:
> >
> >The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
> >in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
> >in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
> >240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
> >different systems) remained.
>
> Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
> before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
> for some decades by then.
>

I remember a major upgrade taking place in West Ham to upgrade the
distribution network from 215V AC to the standard 240V while I was at
school there in the late 50s.

Nearby Ilford still had 200V DC, a hangover from when Ilford town
council generated 600V DC for its tramways and obviously found it
convenient to stick to DC for domestic supplies.

When it was converted to 240V AC I do not know but there was no evidence
of anything remotely DC connected when I moved there in the early 70s.

--

Terry

[David Looser]

"Jerry" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Looser" > wrote in message
> ...
> : "Jerry" > wrote
> : >
> : > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
> UK's
> : > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types
> of
> : > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
> : > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents
> to
> : > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
> : >
> :
> : And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
> might have hoped
> : to acquire!
> :
>
> Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in
> gratuitous effect?
> --

You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it that you
have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up children, and
that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a subject in
giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.

David.

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> John Williamson wrote:
>
> > Eiron wrote:
> >
> >> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> >> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
> >>
> > http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
> >
> > Problem solved. HTH
>
> I doubt that design will ever fly ...
>
> I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
> retractable ...
>
> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

A bit late in the day, perhaps, with so many laptops now using earthed
'clover leaf' connectors?

I must admit I much prefer the figure-of-eight connector. By the time
you take the much smaller cross section of the cable into consideration,
it makes the whole thing much more compact.

Also, I have an even more compact cable fitted with a 2-pin Euro plug
for continental excursions ...

--

Terry

[recursor]

On 01/03/2012 04:04 PM, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>
> Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?

Every time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> Terry Casey wrote:
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >> Eiron wrote:
> >>> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
> >>>> Eiron wrote:
> >>>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> >>>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
> >>>>>
> >>>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Problem solved. HTH
> >>> Still not in production?
> >>> Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
> >>> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
> >>>
> >> Or this:-
> >>
> >> http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
> >>
> >
> > 404 Not Found
> >
> > Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
> > you ...?
> >
> Go to:-
> http://www.slimplug.com/
>
> And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

Funny that it has a metal earth pin but is only available with a figure-
of-eight connector/cable - see my comments about this up-thread.

I note that a cloverleaf adaptor is mentioned on the site but no details
are available, including how to buy it!

Can a 2-pin to 3-pin adaptor be legal?

On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?

Incidentally, since the move from 2 to 3-pin laptop PSUs, has anybody
else noticed that the pound shops seem to be awash with figure-of-eight
mains leads these days ...?

--

Terry

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> In message >, John Williamson
> > writes:
> []
> >So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
> >plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
> >which wire is live.
> >
> That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most
> (all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
> switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
> dangerous to me.

That's because the Shuko plug is also non polarised, whereas the French
variant is.

--

Terry

[David Looser]

"Jerry" > wrote
>
> Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
> electrical installations

Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I know is that
after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
(My emphasis).

David.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" > wrote in message
: ...
: >
: > "David Looser" > wrote in message
: > ...
: > : "Jerry" > wrote
: > : >
: > : > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
: > UK's
: > : > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other
types
: > of
: > : > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst
being
: > : > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK
parents
: > to
: > : > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
: > : >
: > :
: > : And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
: > might have hoped
: > : to acquire!
: > :
: >
: > Care to explain why you think that, or are you more
interested in
: > gratuitous effect?
:
: You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it
that you
: have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up
children, and
: that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a
subject in
: giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.
:

Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
up YOUR kids!

As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
parenting skills Mr Looser...

[David Looser]

"Jerry" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Looser" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
> : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
> plug has 3
> : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
> by the pins,
> : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
> weight of the
> : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
> installation I saw
> : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
> circuit breaker
> : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
> :
>
> But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
> out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
> large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
> increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
> (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket for the Italian
plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly good. Also the
Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a matter of
luck. Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.

I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad thing just
because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat it. The
overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than 13A, I don't
accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is somehow
cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results in an
increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired with 3A cable
in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your notion that
safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will ignore them.
>
> Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
> electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
> dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
> the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
> practises?

I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety, which is true.
I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an Italian
installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.
>
> Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
> something unsafe.

A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that BS1363 plugs
are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the fuse!

> As long as the rating of the socket or
> conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
> that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
> conductor used in these Italian instillations...
> --

I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what it was. But I
do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected to those
plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to handle up to
25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a flex of that
cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or less. OK, I
accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now that new
appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a less than
perfect safety system is better than no system at all.

David.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" > wrote
: >
: > Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
: > electrical installations
:
: Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I
know is that
: after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
: (My emphasis).
:

Actually re-reading Arny's original comment (and the context),
it's about as clear as mud as to which electrical system he was
referring to! Besides I was replying to Mr Plowman's comments
(and inaccuracies) about the UK so there, so less of the "you"
please. :~P

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
> number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
> in existence and use.

Yes pet. I forgot you live in a hovel.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[David Looser]

"Jerry" > wrote
> :
>
> Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
> up YOUR kids!
>
> As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
> reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
> parenting skills Mr Looser...
>

You really are a contemptible piece of work aren't you Jerry? Even if I
wasn't already aware of your ignorance about children from coming across you
in other forums, your earlier statement would be enough to tell me that you
have no knowledge of the subject. For your information, Jerry, its very
small children, those too young to understand the concept of danger or to be
taught not to poke things into sockets, yet who are intensely curious and
mobile who are in danger from unshuttered sockets.

David.


>

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
David Looser > wrote:
> > Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
> > electrical installations

> Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I know is that
> after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
> (My emphasis).

That'll teach me to post after midnight. ;-) Sorry to Arny.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" > wrote in message
: ...
: >
: > "David Looser" > wrote in message
: > ...
: >
: > <snip>
: > : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The
10A
: > plug has 3
: > : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that
provided
: > by the pins,
: > : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
: > weight of the
: > : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
: > installation I saw
: > : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
: > circuit breaker
: > : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
: > :
: >
: > But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK
bridging
: > out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to
string a
: > large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that
has
: > increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
: > (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and
kitchens).
:
: Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket
for the Italian
: plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly
good.

On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for
the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the
terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is
less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead
is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either
plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur
it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead
out of the socket from a distance.

Also the
: Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a
matter of
: luck.

Not relevant on anything that doesn't have a single pole switch,
and surely a BS1363 plug with a figure 8 style lead is as bad,
more so because the user might be unaware of the risk of pole
reversibility? Even then, nothing to stop someone reversing the
polarity in the plug due to transposing the +/- cables. Or, and
quite possible since the EU wide harmonisation of wiring colours,
transposing the conductors at the socket.

Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
: BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.

Funny that, I have such an older un-sleeved plug sitting on my
desk ATM, as I said elsewhere, there must be many millions of
such plugs still in existence and otherwise serviceable... It's
only been comparatively recently that people have been discarding
appliances still with the plug attached, the most common reason
being that it has a moulded on plug, but then these dire
contraptions have caused their own safety problems to those who
have been lulled into this fails sense of electrical safety.

:
: I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad
thing just
: because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat
it. The
: overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than
13A, I don't
: accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is
somehow
: cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

If an idiot can defeat the safety device that has been place
there so that idiots are safer then the safety measure has by
definition failed! But heck, if you're right then, judging by the
majority of countries (even just within the EU), the UK has been
totally OTT with its own electrical safety. You have made my
point for me!...

:
: As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results
in an
: increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired
with 3A cable
: in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your
notion that
: safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will
ignore them.

Actually I had not given Part P much thought before it was
imminent and could see the intent behind it, only then, whilst in
conversation with a couple of registered electricians (thus would
get Part P registration) that Part P came up and *they* expressed
doubts over the regs effects and the likely hood of the scenario
was put to me - OK so 3A flex might be unlikely but still
possible. Also IIRC the same sorts of doubts,about Part P's
actual effect on hazardous area safety, were expressed on the
uk.d-i-y group.

: >
: > Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
: > electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
: > dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference
for
: > the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
: > practises?
:
: I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety,
which is true.
: I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an
Italian
: installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.

Well yes, to the point of being bleedingly obvious, and a UK
installation would fail a Italian or USA electrical safety check,
different strokes for different folks and all that!

: >
: > Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense)
make
: > something unsafe.
:
: A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that
BS1363 plugs
: are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the
fuse!

I'm saying *anything* can and will be unsafe if miss used,
attempting to make something 'idiot proof' (which the vast
majority of the UK's domestic electrical regulation, such as
BS1363, attempts to do), does is induce complacency amongst those
most at risk.

:
: > As long as the rating of the socket or
: > conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I
note
: > that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
: > conductor used in these Italian instillations...
: > --
:
: I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what
it was.

So it could have actually been as great or greater than the
underlaying instalation, thus your pouint was what, exactly?

But I
: do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected
to those
: plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to
handle up to
: 25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a
flex of that
: cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or
less. OK, I
: accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now
that new
: appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a
less than
: perfect safety system is better than no system at all.
:

So, given an identical appliance with a 0.5 sqmm flex/lead/power
cord -call it what you like- lets get what you're saying
straight; so there *is a problem in Italy * because it is
protected by a 25A MCB, but there /is no problem in the UK/ even
though (without any idiots intervention, as set out by myself
above) if a fault occoured it would be protected by a 30A MCB due
to the vagaries of slow-blow BS1362 fuses? Yeah, that's
logical...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
>
> Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
> electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
> experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
> late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs
> having finger stops whilst un-switched sockets are actually very
> common than Mr Plowman suggests, especially in 'to a price' built
> housing, such as local authority, starter and MOD stock or were
> the idea is to discourage disconnection of the appliances, such
> as fridges, freezers or VCRs etc.
>

My personal preference is for unswitched sockets but I'm obviously in a
minority as, when I wanted some 13A twin outlets last year, ass of the
unswitched one were (considerably) more expensive than the switched
variety. This seems to suggest that 'built to a price' installations
include switches ...

> So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
> number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
> in existence and use.

I wonder how many are still in use, though? I do have quite a stock of
plugs with unsleeved pins that have been recovered from old equipment (I
also have a 'new' (well, they were when I got them many moons ago) stock
of the sleeved variety.

As all new stuff comes with sleeved plugs pre-fitted, how often does the
average user fit a 13A plug these days?

Without checking every appliance to be sure, I can't think of a single
item in this house that might have an unsleeved plug ...

--

Terry

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Terry Casey > wrote:
> My personal preference is for unswitched sockets but I'm obviously in a
> minority as, when I wanted some 13A twin outlets last year, ass of the
> unswitched one were (considerably) more expensive than the switched
> variety. This seems to suggest that 'built to a price' installations
> include switches ...

Yes. The supplier I use doesn't even list unswitched 13 amp in their
budget ranges. But I was never a fan of them anyway. I've not known a
switch on a socket to fail, so I'd guess it's pretty rare.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...

> In article >,
> Arny Krueger > wrote:
>> All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in
>> Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in,
>> due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch
>> the contacts.

> That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of their length -
> only the end part makes contact.

I know the German plugs were made that way It is good to know that the UK
plugs are made in a similar way.

We still have all-brass pins here in the US.

> And in any case most UK socket outlets
> have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent your fingers
> slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.

This is what I am talking about:

http://powercord-supplier.en.hisupplier.com/product-746829-Japan-AC-power-cable-with-pse-approval-Rating-7A-125V.html

"Japan AC power cable with pse approval/Rating:7A 125V"

Only the ca.-1960 USA version lacked the upper part of the molded grip and
the strain relief.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
> "Jerry" > wrote
>>
>> Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
>> electrical installations

> Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I know is that
> after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
> (My emphasis).


I'm glad someone was reading! ;-)

I have negligible experience with UK electrical appliances. I spent maybe 3
days in the UK back in the late 1980s, and that was that. Seems like a
pleasant enough place.

I spent a year in Germany in the late 1960s as a guest of Uncle Sam.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:03:30 -0000, Terry Casey wrote:

> I wonder how Germany will fare if we get a repeat performance but with
> much lower temperatures all over Europe so that all other countries need
> all of their energy to supply their own needs?

Quite, there does seem to be a great reliance on the "market
supplying" both for power and food. Don't worry if we need more X we
can buy it from the market. That's fine provided the market has any X
to sell... Power and food are finite but "the market" doesn't take
those physical limits into consideration.

As for Mrs Merkel with her knickers down <shudder>.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:29:30 +0000, Scott wrote:

> But no fuse. I like the idea of putting the fuse in the plug so if
> one appliance fails you don't 'fuse' the whole circuit (though with
> RCDs I'm not sure that still applies).

Remember that ring mains are UK thing. The european way is for
radials so "fusing the whole circuit" doesn't have quite the same
effect. Also the fuse is to protect the wiring or appliance cable not
the appliance itself.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:29:53 -0000, "Jerry"
> wrote:

>But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
>out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
>large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
>increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
>(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

**** off, Jerry.
Go and play with the buses.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" > wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" > wrote
: > :
: >
: > Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of
bringing
: > up YOUR kids!
: >
: > As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
: > reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
: > parenting skills Mr Looser...
: >
:
: You really are a contemptible piece of work aren't you Jerry?

Oh so Mr Looser likes to dish the insults but doesn't like them
dished in return...

Even if I
: wasn't already aware of your ignorance about children from
coming across you
: in other forums, your earlier statement would be enough to tell
me that you
: have no knowledge of the subject. For your information, Jerry,
its very

You know only what you *think* you know about me, just as I do of
you.

: small children, those too young to understand the concept of
danger or to be
: taught not to poke things into sockets, yet who are intensely
curious and
: mobile who are in danger from unshuttered sockets.
:

That is were parental supervision comes in surely, and unlike you
(obviously) I do have knowledge as to how southern European
families raise their kids compared to those in the UK,
un-shuttered power sockets and all. The way you talk down the
safety of such sockets anyone would think that most of the world
was in danger of dying out due to infant and child mortality rate
due to electrocution...

[Jim Lesurf[_2_]]

In article >, Terry
Casey > wrote:


> I remember a major upgrade taking place in West Ham to upgrade the
> distribution network from 215V AC to the standard 240V while I was at
> school there in the late 50s.

That is interesting for me as I lived in Stratford at the time and I do
recall some kind of change being made to the electrical power. But it was
so long ago that I'd forgotten the details.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
: > number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still
be
: > in existence and use.
:
: Yes pet. I forgot you live in a hovel.
:

Whilst you are a left-wing "Toff", and wrong, so no surprise that
you chose to resort to insults rather than debate the facts...

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Terry Casey" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
: My personal preference is for unswitched sockets but I'm
obviously in a
: minority as, when I wanted some 13A twin outlets last year, ass
of the
: unswitched one were (considerably) more expensive than the
switched
: variety. This seems to suggest that 'built to a price'
installations
: include switches ...
:

Depends on who is buying and from where, I doubt you were wanting
to buy a few thousand direct from MK or who ever, IYSWIM.

[Java Jive]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:09:53 -0000, "David Looser"
> wrote:
>
> I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad thing just
> because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat it. The
> overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than 13A, I don't
> accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is somehow
> cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

Exactly. You can cater for a fool, but there is nothing you can do
about a damned fool.

> I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what it was. But I
> do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected to those
> plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to handle up to
> 25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a flex of that
> cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or less. OK, I
> accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now that new
> appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a less than
> perfect safety system is better than no system at all.

Yes, entirely agreed.
--
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

[Woody[_5_]]

Two points:

Part P was brought in supposedly to stop people doing dangerous
domestic rewiring causing death. The most recent records
available before Part P came in (2007 and 2005 IMSMC) showed that
in that year four people had died and twenty had received
significant electric shocks as a result of unsafe domestice
wiring alterations. If ever there was an instance of jobs for the
boys this must be it.

The other issue is that continental electricians don't seem to
have any concept of live and neutral. BS4343 outlets are very
clearly marked L and N on both plug or socket but my experience
(caravanning, mainly in France) is that more are reverse wired
than correctly wired. Perhaps it is because (from what I have
seen) most Euro MCB's are dual pole and will break both both
conductors under fault conditions (remember most Euro wiring is
radial) so polarity at the point of delivery is largely academic.
I purchased a 10A two-pole MCB (LeGrand) for my caravan in a
French DIY shed for less than a 6A single pole from a UK
wholesaler. Is there any wonder we have to take more steps in our
protection chain than they do?



--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article
>,
: Terry Casey > wrote:
: > My personal preference is for unswitched sockets but I'm
obviously in a
: > minority as, when I wanted some 13A twin outlets last year,
ass of the
: > unswitched one were (considerably) more expensive than the
switched
: > variety. This seems to suggest that 'built to a price'
installations
: > include switches ...
:
: Yes. The supplier I use doesn't even list unswitched 13 amp in
their
: budget ranges. But I was never a fan of them anyway. I've not
known a
: switch on a socket to fail, so I'd guess it's pretty rare.
:

Nothing to do with a switch failing, it's either bulk order price
or a wish to prevent accidental disconnection - for example, a
freezer. I detest so called skilled electricians installing
switched outlets in the backs of cupboards for such appliances,
if they must bodge then at least fit a an unswitched outlet.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
: "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
: ...
:
<snip>
:
: > That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
their length -
: > only the end part makes contact.
:
: I know the German plugs were made that way It is good to know
that the UK
: plugs are made in a similar way.
:
: We still have all-brass pins here in the US.

Any idea what the figures, due to such plug/sockets, are for
shock or electrocution in the USA?

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Jim Lesurf" > wrote in message
...
: In article >, Jerry
: > wrote:
:
: > "Jim Lesurf" > wrote in message
: > ...
: > : In article >, Jerry
: > : > wrote:
:
: [Snip]
:
: > :
: > : Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does
it?
:
:
: > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
UK's BS1363
: > plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets,
:
: So no stats on either.
:

Indeed, just like everyone else...

:
: > : > But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
: > actually be
: > : > protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
: > person using
: > : > the appliance believes that it is protected at the
correct
: > 3A.
: > :
: > : How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone
using
: > fuse wire (of
: > : any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
: > decades. is that
: > : what you are referring to?
:
: > No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same
diameter as the
: > BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot
can do it,
: > they probably will,
:
: Again, not really comparative stats.

Indeed, just like everyone else...

:
: > Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
: > : being a significant problem?
: > :
:
: > Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all
(non
: > wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has
to now
: > come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse?
:
: Why do you thing that asking a question is a substitute for
having the
: relevant statistical data to compare the outcomes for different
systems? If
: the UK system "wasn't for consumer convenience" then your
implication is
: that is was for some other reason - e.g. safety. Hence arguing
against your
: earlier implication that shuttering hasn't any value.

The problem was the number of *incorrectly wired* plugs being
used, even by people who either should have known better or who
should have been trained, nothing what so ever to do with the
shuttering on the sockets.

:
: I appreciate you have loads of opinions. But I was asking if
you had any
: reliable stats.
:

Much like you and everyone else then, so please, no more of your
sycophantic bull**** then, unless you care to quote and cite some
hard facts...

[Jerry[_5_]]

> wrote in message
...

<snip>
:
: **** off, Jerry.
: Go and play with the buses.

Just back from school Grimly, does your mummy know that you are
playing with daddies computer...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> Nothing to do with a switch failing, it's either bulk order price
> or a wish to prevent accidental disconnection - for example, a
> freezer. I detest so called skilled electricians installing
> switched outlets in the backs of cupboards for such appliances,
> if they must bodge then at least fit a an unswitched outlet.

If the switch doesn't fail why does it matter if an inaccessible one is
switched or non switched?

--
*Modulation in all things *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > Nothing to do with a switch failing, it's either bulk order
price
: > or a wish to prevent accidental disconnection - for example,
a
: > freezer. I detest so called skilled electricians installing
: > switched outlets in the backs of cupboards for such
appliances,
: > if they must bodge then at least fit a an unswitched outlet.
:
: If the switch doesn't fail why does it matter if an
inaccessible one is
: switched or non switched?
:

Because it can get accidentally switched off due to stuff being
moved or pushed to the back of the cupboard!

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Jerry" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
> : "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> : ...
> :
> <snip>
> :
> : > That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
> their length -
> : > only the end part makes contact.
> :
> : I know the German plugs were made that way It is good to know
> that the UK
> : plugs are made in a similar way.
> :
> : We still have all-brass pins here in the US.
>
> Any idea what the figures, due to such plug/sockets, are for
> shock or electrocution in the USA?

No such detailed stats, but US consumer deaths due to electrical appliances
are on the order of 1 per 500,000 persons per year. UK numbers appear to be
more like 1 per 2 million persons per year.

[Roderick Stewart[_2_]]

In article >, Terry
Casey wrote:
> On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
> fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?

Because if they supplied them with anything else in the UK, you'd need to
buy an adaptor as well.

Rod
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

[John Williamson]

Roderick Stewart wrote:
> In article >, Terry
> Casey wrote:
>> On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
>> fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?
>
> Because if they supplied them with anything else in the UK, you'd need to
> buy an adaptor as well.
>
You mean like the lead that connects the three pin, 13A plug and
terminates in the two pin figure of eight socket used by 80% of the
laptop supplies in this room? I've got Euro leads for them, too, so I
don't need to use adaptors when I'm travelling.

The other two are wallwart supplies which plug into the wall and output
the right voltage for the computer.

I suspect there's been change in in legislation in at least one country
where the laptops are sold, ands it's cheaper to change the design on
all the units than make a different one for the offending country or
countries.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
>
> We still have all-brass pins here in the US.
>

Given the thickness (or should that be thinness) of the blades, is there
an alternative?

Reducing the size of the blade to allow for a sleeve would probably
weaken it too much and I doubt the sockets would accept thicker blades.

--

Terry

[Terry Casey]

In article n.co.uk>,
says...
>
> In article >, Terry
> Casey wrote:
> > On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
> > fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?
>
> Because if they supplied them with anything else in the UK, you'd need to
> buy an adaptor as well.
>

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that it is no
longer legal in the UK to supply equipment with twin flex (and matching
2-pole connector)?

--

Terry

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Terry Casey" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>>
>> We still have all-brass pins here in the US.

> Given the thickness (or should that be thinness) of the blades, is there
> an alternative?

Good question.

> Reducing the size of the blade to allow for a sleeve would probably
> weaken it too much

Brass isn't the strongest stuff in the world. For low current apps (less
than a few amps) a proportionately stronger material like spring steel
could be used for the insulated section.

> and I doubt the sockets would accept thicker blades.

You've got that right!

[Andy Champ[_2_]]

On 04/01/2012 13:14, Jerry wrote:
> On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
> insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for
> the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the
> terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is
> less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
> other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead
> is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either
> plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur
> it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead
> out of the socket from a distance.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=easy+plug&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9928575363582767211&sa=X&ei=orsET_7YK4uyhAeioZjKAQ&ved=0CEkQ8wIwBg

AKA

http://tinyurl.com/6wpkcts

Andy

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Andy Champ" > wrote in message
. uk...
: On 04/01/2012 13:14, Jerry wrote:
: > On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
: > insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially
for
: > the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of
the
: > terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say)
there is
: > less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
: > other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the
lead
: > is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in
either
: > plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution
occur
: > it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance
lead
: > out of the socket from a distance.
:
:
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=easy+plug&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9928575363582767211&sa=X&ei=orsET_7YK4uyhAeioZjKAQ&ved=0CEkQ8wIwBg
:

URL relates to a "Thermoplasic moulding 13 AMP Fused Easy pull
handle BS 1363 IP20 Rated Grip for easy removal of plug from
socket"

....and?........

That's product is great for someone with a problem with their
finger-grip, it does nothing to help those with muscular
problems, nor does it provide a solution to the other two issues
I mentioned relating to flex damage from being strained and
emergency disconnection (although if the flex was cable tied to
the handle...).
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> On 04/01/2012 13:14, Jerry wrote:
> > On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
> > insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for
> > the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the
> > terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is
> > less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
> > other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead
> > is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either
> > plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur
> > it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead
> > out of the socket from a distance.
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=easy+plug&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9928575363582767211&sa=X&ei=orsET_7YK4uyhAeioZjKAQ&ved=0CEkQ8wIwBg
>
> AKA
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6wpkcts
>
> Andy

Google doesn't help with short links, does it?

I got it down to this, but that's the best I can do ...!

http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?gl=uk&hl=en&cid=
9928575363582767211&q=easy%20plug

I must have got it confused though because I assume '&cid' means
customer ID and they didn't spot that the request came from someone
else!

--

Terry

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 21:22:30 -0000, Terry Casey
> wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>>
>> On 04/01/2012 13:14, Jerry wrote:
>> > On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
>> > insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for
>> > the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the
>> > terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is
>> > less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
>> > other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead
>> > is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either
>> > plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur
>> > it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead
>> > out of the socket from a distance.
>>
>> http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=easy+plug&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9928575363582767211&sa=X&ei=orsET_7YK4uyhAeioZjKAQ&ved=0CEkQ8wIwBg
>>
>> AKA
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/6wpkcts
>>
>> Andy
>
>Google doesn't help with short links, does it?
>
>I got it down to this, but that's the best I can do ...!
>
>http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?gl=uk&hl=en&cid=
>9928575363582767211&q=easy%20plug
>
>I must have got it confused though because I assume '&cid' means
>customer ID and they didn't spot that the request came from someone
>else!

Wow, those prices aren't pretty. I believe these things are available
on a sort of prescription basis for the elderly and people with
arthritis.

d

[David Looser]

"Woody" > wrote
>
> The other issue is that continental electricians don't seem to have any
> concept of live and neutral. BS4343 outlets are very clearly marked L and
> N on both plug or socket but my experience (caravanning, mainly in France)
> is that more are reverse wired than correctly wired. Perhaps it is because
> (from what I have seen) most Euro MCB's are dual pole and will break both
> both conductors under fault conditions (remember most Euro wiring is
> radial)

Not sure I see the relevance of radial circuits to two-pole MCBs. Fusing in
the UK used to be two-pole many years ago, but neutral fusing was dropped
because it was possible for the neutral fuse only to fail, leaving the
circuit inoperative yet still live. Whilst obviously with MCBs it would be
possible to return to two-pole isolation I'm not sure that I see the
benefit. Nor, presumably, do the committee who write BS7671.

> so polarity at the point of delivery is largely academic.

I disagree. In my view polarity at the point of delivery can be important
(depending on appliance) regardless of the number of poles in the MCB.

> I purchased a 10A two-pole MCB (LeGrand) for my caravan in a French DIY
> shed for less than a 6A single pole from a UK wholesaler.

Single-pole MCBs to BS7671 (any current rating) cost around £2-£3, how much
less than that was this LeGrand 2-pole job?

Is there any wonder we have to take more steps in our
> protection chain than they do?
>
What do mean by "more steps" and what has that to do with the price of MCBs?

David.

[Andy Burns]

Terry Casey wrote:

> Andy Burns > says...
>
>> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html
>
> A bit late in the day, perhaps, with so many laptops now using earthed
> 'clover leaf' connectors?
>
> I must admit I much prefer the figure-of-eight connector.

The mains charger that was supplied with my Dell laptop had a
cloverleaf, but I purchased the Dell travel charger which is 1) much
smaller and lighter, 2) can run from 12V or 110-240V and 3) uses a
figure-of-8 connector.

£15 quid is a bit steep, but I picked up one anyway, works nicely, I
think I will end up discarding the retracting reel, it adds too much bulk.

[Paul Ratcliffe]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 18:42:22 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)
> wrote:

>>I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there
>
> It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it, yes - and
> also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely available
> are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_ get in
> BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it

Huh? RS have 1,2,3,5,7,10,13 readily available. This is not what
I'd call "half having to hunt for".

> - is too high for most
> electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are fused actually
> gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings are so
> high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead (or power
> cord, as it's called in US) itself.

The fuse is only *designed* to protect the mains lead, not the device to
which the lead is connected. That's what the device's internal fuse is for.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> Because it can get accidentally switched off due to stuff being
> moved or pushed to the back of the cupboard!

You keep your fridge in a cupboard?

Stick some gaffer tape over the switch.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Roderick Stewart[_2_]]

In article >, Terry Casey
wrote:
> > > On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
> > > fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?
> >
> > Because if they supplied them with anything else in the UK, you'd need to
> > buy an adaptor as well.
> >
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that it is no
> longer legal in the UK to supply equipment with twin flex (and matching
> 2-pole connector)?

I wasn't implying anything at all about what's legal, because I don't know, but
I do know that if you want to plug an electrical appliance into a wall socket
in the UK, it needs to have a 3 pin UK plug on it. Therefore if they put any
other kind of plug on it, you'd have to use an adaptor.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:51:51 -0000, Terry Casey
> wrote:

>In article n.co.uk>,
says...
>>
>> In article >, Terry
>> Casey wrote:
>> > On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
>> > fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?
>>
>> Because if they supplied them with anything else in the UK, you'd need to
>> buy an adaptor as well.
>>
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that it is no
>longer legal in the UK to supply equipment with twin flex (and matching
>2-pole connector)?

Nothing to do with legality, just practicability. If you want to sell
goods in the UK market, it is a pretty good idea to supply them with a
UK mains plug. Adaptors are for when you travel, not at home. One
current exception is mains-powered shavers (only a few left now), that
use a two-pin plug specifically designed for an isolated bathroom
connector.

A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring has in
one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin socket.

d

[André Coutanche]

Don Pearce wrote:

> A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring has in
> one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin socket.

The Landmark Trust still use these extensively, including in newly restored
properties. They're on the lighting circuit, I was told.

André Coutanche

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Roderick Stewart" >
wrote in message
.myzen.co.uk...
: In article
>, Terry
Casey
: wrote:
: > > > On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started
supplying their
: > > > fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?
: > >
: > > Because if they supplied them with anything else in the UK,
you'd need to
: > > buy an adaptor as well.
: > >
: >
: > I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that it
is no
: > longer legal in the UK to supply equipment with twin flex
(and matching
: > 2-pole connector)?
:
: I wasn't implying anything at all about what's legal, because I
don't know, but
: I do know that if you want to plug an electrical appliance into
a wall socket
: in the UK, it needs to have a 3 pin UK plug on it. Therefore if
they put any
: other kind of plug on it, you'd have to use an adaptor.
:

Except Terry was talking about the *female* plug on the end of
the power lead that is inserted into the PSU... The plug that is
inserted into the wall socket, AIUI, those have and will always
be local to the official area of sale - otherwise, in your own
words, an adapter would be required. Duh! :~)
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:51:51 -0000, Terry Casey
: > wrote:
:
<snip>
:
: Nothing to do with legality, just practicability. If you want
to sell
: goods in the UK market, it is a pretty good idea to supply them
with a
: UK mains plug. Adaptors are for when you travel, not at home.
One
: current exception is mains-powered shavers (only a few left
now), that
: use a two-pin plug specifically designed for an isolated
bathroom
: connector.

Not sure what Terry means by "Mains Powered" (only 240v ?), there
seems to be quite a few "mains powered" razors still being sold,
many do have rechargeable batteries but still come with a two pin
power lead for use in UK isolated shaver outlets to allow for
recharging. In fact IIRC MK actually make, for the *UK market*
two pin shaver outlets /without/ a isolating transformer for
fitting into non-hazardous areas such as bedrooms and dressing
rooms.

:
: A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring
has in
: one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin
socket.
:

....and very useful they are too, allowing for remote operation of
non fixed lighting.
Their 15A round pin cousins are still legal too, of course they
have to be installed on radial circuits, one such use is on
emersion heaters were the control switch is remote from the water
tanks location, thus enabling a definite DP isolation to be
achieved when servicing/repair is required.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Paul Ratcliffe" > wrote in
message ...
: On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 18:42:22 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)
: > wrote:
:
: >>I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some
years ago there
: >
: > It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it,
yes - and
: > also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely
available
: > are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_
get in
: > BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it
:
: Huh? RS have 1,2,3,5,7,10,13 readily available. This is not
what
: I'd call "half having to hunt for".

Except that if you said "RS" to most of the UK's population they
would either look back blankly or think of a Ford motor car that
was popular in the 1970s and '80s. Again Mr Ratcliffe shows that
he lives only in a bubble of techo-babble speak...

:
: > - is too high for most
: > electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are
fused actually
: > gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings
are so
: > high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead
(or power
: > cord, as it's called in US) itself.
:
: The fuse is only *designed* to protect the mains lead, not the
device to
: which the lead is connected. That's what the device's internal
fuse is for.

Assuming it has one, most domestic appliances don't. Again Mr
Ratcliffe shows that he lives only in a bubble of techo-babble
speak...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > Because it can get accidentally switched off due to stuff
being
: > moved or pushed to the back of the cupboard!
:
: You keep your fridge in a cupboard?

Err, news:alt.troll is that away Mr Plowman ===>

But heck, you have kitchen cupboards that you don't put anything
in?!

:
: Stick some gaffer tape over the switch.
:

Oh right, so your solution is a bodge on a bodge, rather than
doing the job right first time?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Don Pearce > wrote:
> A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring has in
> one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin socket.

All the 'old' round 3 pin sockets still comply to UK regs - provided they
are on a suitable circuit. A common use is for floor or table lamps
switched from the wall, etc. If on a dimmer, plugging the hoover into that
wouldn't be a good idea...
Some of the modern versions available are shuttered.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> : You keep your fridge in a cupboard?

> Err, news:alt.troll is that away Mr Plowman ===>

Not surprised you have that to hand.

> But heck, you have kitchen cupboards that you don't put anything
> in?!

I don't put 'anything' in the fridge housing, no. Or the one for the
washing machine etc either. I'd say it's rather rare for anyone to keep a
fridge in an actual cupboard these days. Putting something used for
storage inside something else used for storage strikes me as wasting
space. But then it does sound like you live somewhere with something not
representative of most kitchens.
> :
> : Stick some gaffer tape over the switch.
> :

> Oh right, so your solution is a bodge on a bodge, rather than
> doing the job right first time?

FFS. If it really concerned me I'd not be whinging about it here - I'd
have changed it years ago.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > : You keep your fridge in a cupboard?
:
: > Err, news:alt.troll is that away Mr Plowman ===>
:
: Not surprised you have that to hand.

Well when the suit fits...

:
: > But heck, you have kitchen cupboards that you don't put
anything
: > in?!
:
: I don't put 'anything' in the fridge housing, no. Or the one
for the
: washing machine etc either. I'd say it's rather rare for anyone
to keep a
: fridge in an actual cupboard these days. Putting something used
for
<snip further trolling>

FFS, what pills are you on these days Plowman?! The cupboard
*next* to a free standing or otherwise fridge, were electricians
(and you, IIRC) often suggest the socket for the fridge supply is
placed -along with a bloody great hole on the side of said
cupboard for the plug to pass through- rather than the more
professional approach of an accessible and visible
'neon-indicated' switched-fuse plate and remote fixed flex outlet
or (if disconnection of the appliance needs to be tools free) a
15A round pin socket outlet.

[David Looser]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Don Pearce > wrote:
>> A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring has in
>> one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin socket.
>
> All the 'old' round 3 pin sockets still comply to UK regs - provided they
> are on a suitable circuit. A common use is for floor or table lamps
> switched from the wall, etc. If on a dimmer, plugging the hoover into that
> wouldn't be a good idea...
> Some of the modern versions available are shuttered.
>
And of course the 15A version is the de-facto standard for theatrical stage
lighting.

David.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> FFS, what pills are you on these days Plowman?! The cupboard
> *next* to a free standing or otherwise fridge, were electricians
> (and you, IIRC) often suggest the socket for the fridge supply is
> placed -along with a bloody great hole on the side of said
> cupboard for the plug to pass through- rather than the more
> professional approach of an accessible and visible
> 'neon-indicated' switched-fuse plate and remote fixed flex outlet
> or (if disconnection of the appliance needs to be tools free) a
> 15A round pin socket outlet.

Right. You need a neon to tell you the fridge is on? And a handy switch to
switch it off? Have you ever sought treatment?

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...

<yet more trolling snipped>

[Terry Casey]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Don Pearce" > wrote in message
> ...
> : On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:51:51 -0000, Terry Casey
> : > wrote:
> :
> <snip>
> :
> : Nothing to do with legality, just practicability. If you want
> to sell
> : goods in the UK market, it is a pretty good idea to supply them
> with a
> : UK mains plug. Adaptors are for when you travel, not at home.
> One
> : current exception is mains-powered shavers (only a few left
> now), that
> : use a two-pin plug specifically designed for an isolated
> bathroom
> : connector.
>
> Not sure what Terry means by "Mains Powered" (only 240v ?),

Err ...

That was Don, I think you'll find ...
--

Terry

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Terry Casey" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: says...
: >
<snip>
: >
: > Not sure what Terry means by "Mains Powered" (only 240v ?),
:
: Err ...
:
: That was Don, I think you'll find ...

So it was, sorry! :~(
--
Regards, Jerry.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 3, 4:39*am, "David Looser" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
> > least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
> > are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
> > frequencies.
>
> > In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
> > houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
> > clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
> > If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
> > outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.
>
> A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
> just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
> audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard in
> this regard. The standard of electrical installations I've seen in the US
> are far worse than those normally encountered here. And the high-powered
> audio equipment I've seen in the US runs off 120V thus supplies requiring
> heavy-guage mains flex. Definitely no improvement on what we have here!

No, my beef is not with 220/240 volt distribution-I prefer it. It's
the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy sockets the Brits use I
think are ridiculous.

That's why I said the Japanese standard was the worst of all.

In the US we are blessed with having three wire split phase 120/240
in most every house built since WWII and many earlier. We just don't
use it for audio, and my argument is that we should. We also have 60
as opposed to 50 hz, which is better from a power supply design
standpoint, although prudence dictates design for any frequency
between slightly under 50 to well over 60 Hz. except in the case of
motors.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 3, 5:24*am, "David Looser" > wrote:
> "Eiron" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
> > Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
> > can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
> > for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!
>
> I'm not sure it is so dumb
> There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was
> that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these
> new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits
> (230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.
>
> > And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> > It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>
> I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there
> was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
> that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
> German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
> socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

That or the Australian socket would be my choice, or one of the 220
NEMA sockets.

If you are going to build "valve" equipment for the world market you
need a winding scheme on the PT that gives bogey filament voltages at
220, 230 and 240 volts and, I understand that in Australia 250 vac is
not uncommon in practice.

In Britain one may readily obtain a "site transformer" which will
give what is advertised as 110 volt balanced power. I haven't been
there in 20+ years, can any Brits tell me if that's really true or if
120, or more, or less, is actually common? They are used for electric
drills and whatnot outdoors. Vintage US gear works fine at 110, but
mostly not current stuff.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
>,
> wrote:
> No, my beef is not with 220/240 volt distribution-I prefer it. It's
> the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy sockets the Brits use I
> think are ridiculous.

You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house distribution
systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times worse than
here.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 3, 6:21*am, "Jerry" > wrote:
> "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" > wrote in ...
>
> <snip>
> : The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled
> to London
> : in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical
> systems in use
> : in various parts of the city. By that time they had been
> standardized to
> : 240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different
> ones for
> : different systems) remained.
>
> Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
> (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
> before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
> thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
> sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?
>
> I suppose that some building with their own (derived/generated)
> power supplies might have had (still have) 'odd' systems to suit
> their own needs, an exception rather than the rule.
> --
> Regards, Jerry.

A national grid has no need to standardize end user voltages, only
frequency.

Many different HV line voltages are used: houses and small businesses
get their power off a "pole pig" or a ground mounted transformer. They
always have trim windings and somewhere in the system must be a tap
changer setup because I2R losses change over the day as the power
demands vary widely.

It would be possible to have 220 in Northern England, 240 in Scotland
and 230-or 117, or 277, or any number at all-in Southampton. because
off a stepdown transformer you are rarely going more than 500 meters
to 1 km, usually less.

Switchmode equipment doesn't care. Solid state analog equipment is
regulated and has a design input range, power amps are often
unregulated and just make less power at lower line voltage. Tube
(valve) equipment wants its heaters at bogey voltage. In the case of
tungsten filaments on transmitting tubes it needs to be close to spot
on.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
>,
> wrote:
> n Britain one may readily obtain a "site transformer" which will
> give what is advertised as 110 volt balanced power. I haven't been
> there in 20+ years, can any Brits tell me if that's really true or if
> 120, or more, or less, is actually common? They are used for electric
> drills and whatnot outdoors. Vintage US gear works fine at 110, but
> mostly not current stuff.

110 volt via an isolating transformer is used on building sites etc for
all power tools. Purely for safety reasons.

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 4, 2:06*am, "David Looser" > wrote:
> "Jerry" > wrote
>
>
>
> > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
> > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
> > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
> > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
> > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
>
> And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you might have hoped
> to acquire!
>
> David.

Making things idiotproof makes better idiots.

The British nanny state is disgusting, dysgenic and depressing but
the US is headed in the exact same direction. The only bright spot is
that when WE implode our empire as you did yours (and, sadly, we
helped: Enoch Powell was oh so correct to hate us for that, although I
was not born when the stuff started and a seven year old when it
pretty much ended: we visited your lily pad back then and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change) the entire
economic system is coming down too and it will have to end pretty much
all over the West.

So don't take my comments the wrong way. We're _worse_ than you are
because we have the example of the mother country at our nose and
we're doing it anyway. God Save the Queen.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 4, 5:27*am, Terry Casey > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
> > In message >, Geoffrey S.
> > Mendelson > writes:
>
> > >The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
> > >in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
> > >in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
> > >240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
> > >different systems) remained.
>
> > Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
> > before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
> > for some decades by then.
>
> I remember a major upgrade taking place in West Ham to upgrade the
> distribution network from 215V AC to the standard 240V while I was at
> school there in the late 50s.
>
> Nearby Ilford still had 200V DC, a hangover from when Ilford town
> council generated 600V DC for its tramways and obviously found it
> convenient to stick to DC for domestic supplies.
>
> When it was converted to 240V AC I do not know but there was no evidence
> of anything remotely DC connected when I moved there in the early 70s.

In the US there were 25 Hz buildings and even houses as late as the
early 70s and a few DC apartment and office buildings in New York
later than that. I stayed at a swank highrise in Chicago in the early
70s that was AC by then but was originally DC and there was evidence
of it in the labels tacked in the fuse box.

We also had a little 50 Hz before the war.

I've always wanted to do a full study of DC and odd frequency power
historically in the US but the research is not helped by the
electrical utilities. I think they are ashamed of it.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 27, 6:25*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" >
wrote:
> In article
> >,
> * > wrote:
>
> > *No, my beef is not with 220/240 volt distribution-I prefer it. It's
> > the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy sockets the Brits use I
> > think are ridiculous.
>
> You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house distribution
> systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times worse than
> here.

In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of incompetent
DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article
:
>,
: > wrote:
: > No, my beef is not with 220/240 volt distribution-I prefer
it. It's
: > the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy sockets the
Brits use I
: > think are ridiculous.
:
: You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
distribution
: systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times
worse than
: here.
:

But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits (opposed to
a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and conductor)
used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then just
about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
down or been shut down on H&S grounds!

There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two down
sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the breaker
panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
still, to this day, permitted.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
>,
> wrote:
> > You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
> > distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many
> > times worse than here.

> In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of incompetent
> DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.


One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and banned
over here many many years ago.

--
*Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
>,
> wrote:
> and it was still
> pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> : You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
> distribution
> : systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times
> worse than
> : here.
> :

> But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits (opposed to
> a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and conductor)
> used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
> hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then just
> about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
> venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
> down or been shut down on H&S grounds!

Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice using the
cheapest possible materials on components where they are available. And
having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of extension
leads or bodged extra sockets.

> There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two down
> sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the breaker
> panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
> attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
> still, to this day, permitted.

No **** Sherlock.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article
:
>,
: > wrote:
: > > You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: > > distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK.
It is many
: > > times worse than here.
:
: > In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of
incompetent
: > DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.
:
:
: One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and
banned
: over here many many years ago.
:

Whilst wire nuts are more susceptible, the same basic fault that
wire nuts suffer can beset any mechanical joints, one of the
reasons why mechanical joints have to remain accessible. A
correctly made joint doesn't normally cause a problem, an
incorrectly made screw terminal can exhibit all the same dangers
as poorly made wire nut joint - heat and arcing.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > : You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: > distribution
: > : systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many
times
: > worse than
: > : here.
: > :
:
: > But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits
(opposed to
: > a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and
conductor)
: > used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
: > hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then
just
: > about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
: > venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
: > down or been shut down on H&S grounds!
:
: Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice
using the
: cheapest possible materials on components where they are
available. And

That might be how you and your ilk would bodge such
installations, the rest of us would budget for the higher cost!
Anyway, when you say "cheapest" what do you actually mean, any
component sold in the UK has to meet the minimum BS (or what
ever) standard, IME cheapest means basic.

: having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of
extension
: leads or bodged extra sockets.

Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits first
started being used in the UK, houses were being built with the
same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often does)
find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor but
not circuit protection. Or, and this is even more dangerous,
incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial circuits
with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the more
usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.

:
: > There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
down
: > sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
breaker
: > panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
: > attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
: > still, to this day, permitted.
:
: No **** Sherlock.
:

So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial circuits
are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> : having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of
> extension
> : leads or bodged extra sockets.

> Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits first
> started being used in the UK, houses were being built with the
> same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
> from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
> exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
> rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often does)
> find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor but
> not circuit protection.

Dear me. You blame a final ring circuit for its design when the problems
you mention are cause by idiots modifying it *from* a ring circuit?
It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things work
should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any work needed.

> Or, and this is even more dangerous,
> incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial circuits
> with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the more
> usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.

See above. If this is how you do wiring, find a less dangerous hobby.

> :
> : > There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
> down
> : > sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
> breaker
> : > panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
> : > attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
> : > still, to this day, permitted.
> :
> : No **** Sherlock.
> :

> So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial circuits
> are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?

You're making assumptions - yet again.

--
*Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > : having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the
use of
: > extension
: > : leads or bodged extra sockets.
:
: > Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits
first
: > started being used in the UK, houses were being built with
the
: > same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
: > from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
: > exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
: > rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often
does)
: > find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor
but
: > not circuit protection.
:
: Dear me. You blame a final ring circuit for its design when the
problems
: you mention are cause by idiots modifying it *from* a ring
circuit?

In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once again
Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with the
panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance lead,
the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
circuits.

: It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things
work
: should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
work needed.

Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr Plowman
and pay someone to do any electrical work!

:
: > Or, and this is even more dangerous,
: > incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial
circuits
: > with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the
more
: > usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.
:
: See above. If this is how you do wiring, find a less dangerous
hobby.

No it most certainly is not how I do wiring (and I doubt that
anyone would intentionally do so), but I'm not sure you wouldn't,
as it is clear that whilst you can read and work to the
regulations you do not understand the whys and wherefores behind
them.

Ring circuits were a fudge of the then electrical standards,
brought about by the need to lower the cost -of post war-
housing, they are most certainly not "the best thing since sliced
bread", with a radial if the circuit becomes split then anything
down-stream of the split stops working or becomes
intermittent -which thus prompts investigation, if there is a
split in a ring circuit nothing is noticed until either an
electrical overload of the conductors/connectors -thus possible
fire- occurs or the integrity of the circuit is tested - in most
houses only luck decides which happens first.

:
: > :
: > : > There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
: > down
: > : > sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
: > breaker
: > : > panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in
an
: > : > attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits
are
: > : > still, to this day, permitted.
: > :
: > : No **** Sherlock.
: > :
:
: > So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial
circuits
: > are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?
:
: You're making assumptions - yet again.
:

Not at all, although you exhibit signs that you either have
(premature) senile debenture or you don't actually bother to read
(and understand) what you are replying to;

["rrusston" said]

"It's the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy
sockets the Brits use I think are ridiculous."

[Plowman replied]

"You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified
house distribution systems in the US, before criticising
the UK. It is many times worse than here."

Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once again
> Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with the
> panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance lead,
> the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
> circuits.

Wire nuts were banned in the UK for very good reasons. Perhaps you'd
explain why that ban was/is wrong?

And you can very easily overload 'an appliance lead' on a radial circuit,
unless it is rated at the same as the radial protection. Which it almost
never will be. That is one great benefit of the UK final ring circuit -
appliance leads are fused at the plug, and must be capable of blowing that
13 amp fuse under fault conditions. Of course idiots who play with
electricity without understanding the basics can cause havoc. You've
proved that one.

> : It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things
> work
> : should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
> work needed.

> Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr Plowman
> and pay someone to do any electrical work!

But I understand the basics. And am capable of following the regs. They
can be bought in nice large print with coloured pictures for those who
have difficulty reading.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
> circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
> circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
> regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable for final
ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some fundamentals
instead of making a fool of yourself.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article
> >,
> > wrote:
> > and it was still
> > pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change
>
> In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
> arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
> system makes things simpler.
>
> But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
> stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?


Because it's so simple to use in a place where we don't need a
calculator for simple math.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jerry wrote:
>
> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> : In article
> :
> >,
> : > wrote:
> : > > You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
> : > > distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK.
> It is many
> : > > times worse than here.
> :
> : > In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of
> incompetent
> : > DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.
> :
> :
> : One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and
> banned
> : over here many many years ago.
> :
>
> Whilst wire nuts are more susceptible, the same basic fault that
> wire nuts suffer can beset any mechanical joints, one of the
> reasons why mechanical joints have to remain accessible. A
> correctly made joint doesn't normally cause a problem, an
> incorrectly made screw terminal can exhibit all the same dangers
> as poorly made wire nut joint - heat and arcing.


I've seen more burned screws than wire nuts.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice using the
> cheapest possible materials on components where they are available. And
> having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of extension
> leads or bodged extra sockets.


The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> writes:
>In article >,
> Jerry > wrote:
>> Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
>> circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
>> circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
>> regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.
>
> 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable for final
>ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some fundamentals
>instead of making a fool of yourself.
>
As an outsider viewing this argument with interest (albeit one who grew
up in Germany, with _properly designed and specified_ non-ring circuits,
so find them odd), I'm curious what the word "final" means here, as it
seems to be being deliberately left in in a way that suggests it _is_
significant.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
> materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message .uk>, Dave
Liquorice > writes:
>On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
>> The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
>> materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?
>
>Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
>refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
>board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
>is.
>
So? You used four rings - thus nearly 10 to a ring. Why wouldn't someone
doing it with radials not put several on each radial?

[And how about a few crossply (-:?]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 28, 5:05*am, "Dave Plowman (News)" >
wrote:
> In article
> >,
> * > wrote:
>
> > and it was still
> > pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change
>
> In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
> arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
> system makes things simpler.
>
> But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
> stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

If you're a machinist or a shooter you use decimal inches. Works
fine.

Either the imperial or metric system works fine. Americans have used
metric in science and medicine since the War of Northern Aggression or
so. What doesn't work fine is the commonly used Metric standard
threads used on nuts and bolts. Actually-the old Whitworth thread form
was most superior. But UNC and UNF are BIG improvements on Metric.

In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
daily matters.

Nautical miles and knots (nm/hr) are still the appropriate measure of
distance and speed at sea universally.

L/s/d (I don't have the Brit pound key and don't remember the ANSI
sequence) currency worked okay for the Brits, but visitors from no
other country easily made change. And of course the Anglosphere
(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
than London!

[[email protected]]

Wire nuts are a safe method of connecting wires if they are correctly
specified for wire gauge and used only once as specified. They were
introduced as a much safer alternative to soldering, because of the
fire danger in using blowtorches as would then have been required.

[Andy Wade]

On 28/01/2012 20:05, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> [...] I'm curious what the word "final" means here, as it seems to be
> being deliberately left in in a way that suggests it _is_
> significant.

A final circuit is simply one that directly feeds 'points of
utilisation' - lights, socket-outlets, etc. A typical domestic
installation with a single consumer unit only has final circuits.

OTOH an installation in a larger building is likely to have a number of
intermediate distribution boards fed from the main intake via
*distribution circuits*. Said boards then feed final circuits or further
levels of sub-distribution (or both) . Distribution circuits which feed
separate (out)buildings from a common supply intake are known as submains.

HTH
--
Andy

[J G Miller]

On Saturday, January 28th, 2012, at 15:22:08h -0800, R Russton wrote:

> Boston is FAR more important to them than London!

More specifically South Boston where a lot of fund raising
was done by NORAID.

<http://www.highbeam.COM/doc/1P2-8125863.html>

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message
>,
writes:
[]
> In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
>being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
>daily matters.

Not just fat people - "seven stone weakling" is a not-unknown
expression.
[]
>(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
>the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The

It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.

>Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
>than London!

I was about to agree with you, then I remembered that they have a land
border with the UK, and not with Boston. And they're more likely to
bring their car to England, too.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> wrote:

>In message
>,
writes:
>[]
>> In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
>>being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
>>daily matters.
>
>Not just fat people - "seven stone weakling" is a not-unknown
>expression.

We mix our units much more than that. Take temperatures - if it is
near freezing we use Centigrade, when it is hot we use Fahrenheit.

>>(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
>>the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
>
>It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.
>

UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
drivers.

>>Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
>>than London!
>
>I was about to agree with you, then I remembered that they have a land
>border with the UK, and not with Boston. And they're more likely to
>bring their car to England, too.

There are more Irish living in London than in Dublin. For most Irish
people England is a second home - particularly since their economy
went belly-up. And of course most Irish people couldn't give a toss
about the IRA and their pathetic games.

d

[John Williamson[_2_]]

Don Pearce wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> > wrote:
>
>> In message
>> >,
>> writes:
>> []
>>> In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
>>> being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
>>> daily matters.
>> Not just fat people - "seven stone weakling" is a not-unknown
>> expression.
>
> We mix our units much more than that. Take temperatures - if it is
> near freezing we use Centigrade, when it is hot we use Fahrenheit.
>
>>> (excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
>>> the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
>> It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.
>>
>
> UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
> drivers.
>
Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to the
ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.

Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of countries
which drive on which side.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[André Coutanche]

John Williamson wrote:
> Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to
> the ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.

Not actually true - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic

In Africa, interestingly, some countries which used to drive on the left -
most notably Nigeria - switched to the right because they were surrounded by
other countries which drove on the right. In other parts of Africa, the
opposite happened.

> Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of
> countries which drive on which side.

Not actually true - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic

Driving on the left is a minority sport - but not so minority as many people
who drive on the right imagine. Three members of the E.U. drive on the left,
and one other made the switch from left to right within living memory.

André Coutanche

[Roderick Stewart[_2_]]

In article >, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > and it was still
> > pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change
>
> In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
> arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
> system makes things simpler.

Yes, people used to be taught things like spelling and multiplication
tables in school. I used to get my pocket money in shillings and pence,
occasionally shops would give change that would include farthings, and I
don't recall having any problems with this.

It was a world in which spellcheckers and calculators hadn't been
invented yet, and in their spare time, brainrotting electronic gadgets
like MP3 players and video game consoles not having been invented yet,
people would sometimes read books. We grew up in it and got used to it.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once
again
: > Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with
the
: > panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance
lead,
: > the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
: > circuits.
:
: Wire nuts were banned in the UK for very good reasons. Perhaps
you'd
: explain why that ban was/is wrong?

Did I say that, no. My point was and is that the world isn't
perfect, hence wire nuts are banned, hence why other mechanical
joints have to remain accessible, and why I consider ring
circuits a bodge at best.

:
: And you can very easily overload 'an appliance lead' on a
radial circuit,
: unless it is rated at the same as the radial protection. Which
it almost
: never will be.

Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...

That is one great benefit of the UK final ring circuit -
: appliance leads are fused at the plug, and must be capable of
blowing that
: 13 amp fuse under fault conditions. Of course idiots who play
with
: electricity without understanding the basics can cause havoc.
You've
: proved that one.

The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
and any other round bar) - again Plowman shows that whilst he can
read the regs and learnt by rope do doubt, rather than actually
understating the RISKS and therefore the whys and wherefores of
the regs. If regulations were not infallible we would never have
had wire nuts, but at one time they were allowed in the regs...

Indeed I have come across such "havoc", hence why I'm so critical
of ring circuits, they encourage such bodges. At worse a *radial
circuit*, protected at the panel by a 15A breaker is no worse
than someone like a table lamp (rated at 3amps) being fitted with
a new BS1363 plug and the default 13amp fused. At worse a /ring
circuit/ is like that same table lamp being hard wired into the
30A cooker connection...

:
: > : It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how
things
: > work
: > : should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
: > work needed.
:
: > Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr
Plowman
: > and pay someone to do any electrical work!
:
: But I understand the basics. And am capable of following the
regs. They
: can be bought in nice large print with coloured pictures for
those who
: have difficulty reading.
:

I'm glade they were a help to you pet, it's just a pity that you
chose to only follow them, rather than fully understand the
rational behind them! :~(
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jerry > wrote:
: > Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not
the
: > circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
: > circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
: > regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.
:
: 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable
for final
: ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
fundamentals
: instead of making a fool of yourself.
:

Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is breaking
the regs!

As for fools, yes Dave, getting mixed up between 13A (fused) flat
pin and 15A (un-fused) round pin plugs/sockets is a bit silly -
perhaps it is time for you to with hang up your neon screw-driver
for the last time...

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Dave Liquorice" > wrote in
message
ll.co.uk...

<snip>
: Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into
the
: refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one
helluva fuse
: board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as
it
: is.
:

You still can run more that three 3Kw electric fires off each
ring circuit, thus how many of these sockets are for power and
how many are basically going to be over spec floor/table lighting
points[1]? As for panel size, no one has said otherwise, but
probably not as large as you might be imagining.

[1] which, if so, are probably better feed off the lighting
circuits, which then allows for remote switching if more
convenient

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, Don Pearce
> writes:
[]
>We mix our units much more than that. Take temperatures - if it is
>near freezing we use Centigrade, when it is hot we use Fahrenheit.
[]
I suspect that for a lot of us, it's only the media - in fact, only the
print media - who do this. I think in Celsius for both: thirtysomething
is too hot for me, much below twenty (unless there's absolutely no wind)
too cold. Our weather forecasts have been in C for some decades, albeit
with the forecaster giving the F equivalent verbally (but not visually).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-Arthur C Clarke, science fiction writer (1917- )

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message n.co.uk>,
Roderick Stewart > writes:
>In article >, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> > and it was still
>> > pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change
>>
>> In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
>> arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
>> system makes things simpler.
>
>Yes, people used to be taught things like spelling and multiplication
>tables in school. I used to get my pocket money in shillings and pence,
>occasionally shops would give change that would include farthings, and I
>don't recall having any problems with this.
>
>It was a world in which spellcheckers and calculators hadn't been
>invented yet, and in their spare time, brainrotting electronic gadgets
>like MP3 players and video game consoles not having been invented yet,
>people would sometimes read books. We grew up in it and got used to it.
>
>Rod.

Aw, c'mon, Rod - although there are _some_ advantages in having these
old skills, it is as unrealistic to consider them as essential now that
we have things which do them for us as the skill of making our own
clothes, copperplate handwriting, and so on. (_All_ of these are useful,
just not as essential as they once were.) As for mp3 players and video
consoles being brainrotting, I don't think they are any more so than
gramophones, playing cards, dominoes, rallies, ... (-:

As for books, there may be some evidence that the recent rise of the
kindle and its friends has _increased_ reading. (Whether of the sort of
books you'd approve of, of course ... but it was ever thus, even when
dead trees ruled the roost.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The reason for the oil shortage: nobody remembered to check the oil levels. Our
oil is located in the North Sea but our dip-sticks are located in Westminster.
(or Texas and Washington etc. - adjust as necessary!)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
> you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
> that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
> fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
> run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...

Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
nothing about.

--
*Save a tree, eat a beaver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
> little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
> unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
> silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
> and any other round bar)

Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more than 13
amps from a socket anyway?

Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably did just
that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed.

Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry.

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> : 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable
> for final
> : ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
> fundamentals
> : instead of making a fool of yourself.
> :

> Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is breaking
> the regs!

You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't understand the basics.

--
*I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Jerry > wrote:
> You still can run more that three 3Kw electric fires off each
> ring circuit, thus how many of these sockets are for power and
> how many are basically going to be over spec floor/table lighting
> points[1]?

All you have in your place is electric fires and table lamps? Explains it
all.

--
Small asylum seeker wanted as mud flap, must be flexible and willing to travel

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Andy Champ[_2_]]

On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
> stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

.... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
never been used in England.

Andy

[recursor[_2_]]

On 29/01/2012 16:28, Andy Champ wrote:
> On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
>> stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?
>
> ... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has never been
> used in England.
>

Hah, everybody knows a gallon should be an 8th part of an amphora. If it was
good enough for the Romans it should be good enough for you goddam Yanks too.

[charles]

In article >,
Andy Champ > wrote:
> On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
> > stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

> ... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
> never been used in England.

of course their volume system has more logic than ours. There are 16oz in
the pound, so they have 16 fluid oz in the pint. It means a pint of water
weighs a pound.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

[S Viemeister]

On 1/29/2012 11:28 AM, Andy Champ wrote:
> On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
>> stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?
>
> ... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
> never been used in England.
>
And US fluid ounces are just a bit different, too.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Andy Champ > wrote:
> On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
> > stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

> ... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
> never been used in England.

IIRC, it has. The UK one was changed sometime after US independence. They
stuck to the old units, understandably.

--
*If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[S Viemeister]

On 1/29/2012 1:45 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In >,
> Andy > wrote:
>> On 28/01/2012 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
>>> stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?
>
>> ... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
>> never been used in England.
>
> IIRC, it has. The UK one was changed sometime after US independence. They
> stuck to the old units, understandably.
>
Yup.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> writes:
>In article >,
> Jerry > wrote:
>> Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
>> you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
>> that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
>> fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
>> run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
>
>Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
>nothing about.
>
Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do
not have great mechanical strength. Therefore Jerry's statement that
mains leads (in US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than
absolutely necessary is valid. Especially if they're of the sort that
has a connector at both ends: if there's a chance that they might be
used for an appliance that draws more, then it is unwise to use
low-current wire/cable for them.

(I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I
live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you bate your breath do you catch a lung fish? (Glynn Greenwood 1996-8-23.)

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:48:39 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> wrote:

>(I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I
>live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)

Why do you find ring mains odd? Once you have daisy chained all the
sockets it is an extremely sensible idea to complete the loop back to
the distribution board. For the cost of a few feet of cable, you have
halved both the effective resistance of the mains and the distance to
the furthest socket. I can't imagine a single reason not to do it.

d

[recursor[_2_]]

On 29/01/2012 20:48, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In message >, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> > writes:
>> In article >,
>> Jerry > wrote:
>>> Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker if
>>> you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance lead
>>> that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal 1amp
>>> fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one could
>>> run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
>>
>> Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
>> nothing about.
>>
> Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do not
> have great mechanical strength. Therefore Jerry's statement that mains leads (in
> US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than absolutely necessary is
> valid. Especially if they're of the sort that has a connector at both ends: if
> there's a chance that they might be used for an appliance that draws more, then
> it is unwise to use low-current wire/cable for them.
>
> (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I live in UK,
> but still find ring mains odd.)

Indeed, inherently unsafe some would say:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit#Fault_conditions_are_not_apparent_whe n_in_use

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, Don Pearce
> writes:
>On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:48:39 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> wrote:
>
>>(I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I
>>live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)
>
>Why do you find ring mains odd? Once you have daisy chained all the
>sockets it is an extremely sensible idea to complete the loop back to

If you happen to have laid them out in a ring manner anyway, yes.

>the distribution board. For the cost of a few feet of cable, you have
>halved both the effective resistance of the mains and the distance to
>the furthest socket. I can't imagine a single reason not to do it.
>
>d

I can see the halving of the resistance (well, at the most remote point
anyway), but not the halving of the distance.

I think maintenance (I mean when modifying, not just general wear and
tear): most extras added to ring mains are spurs. (Also, instinctively,
it's easier to know when one is isolated with a spur, though that
shouldn't be done that way.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The summit of Everest is marine limestone.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
J. P. Gilliver (John) > wrote:
> >Why do you find ring mains odd? Once you have daisy chained all the
> >sockets it is an extremely sensible idea to complete the loop back to

> If you happen to have laid them out in a ring manner anyway, yes.

Why wouldn't you? There are less runs back to the CU than doing the same
with radials, so surely not too difficult to design?

> >the distribution board. For the cost of a few feet of cable, you have
> >halved both the effective resistance of the mains and the distance to
> >the furthest socket. I can't imagine a single reason not to do it.
> >
> >d

> I can see the halving of the resistance (well, at the most remote point
> anyway), but not the halving of the distance.

> I think maintenance (I mean when modifying, not just general wear and
> tear): most extras added to ring mains are spurs. (Also, instinctively,
> it's easier to know when one is isolated with a spur, though that
> shouldn't be done that way.)

You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it so much more
difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?

--
*Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
J. P. Gilliver (John) > wrote:
> >Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
> >nothing about.
> >
> Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do
> not have great mechanical strength.

Where will you find an appliance sold fitted with 1A flex and a 13 amp
plug?

> Therefore Jerry's statement that
> mains leads (in US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than
> absolutely necessary is valid.

All appliances now sold in the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) are capable of
blowing a 13 amp fuse in event of a fault on the line chord.

> Especially if they're of the sort that
> has a connector at both ends: if there's a chance that they might be
> used for an appliance that draws more, then it is unwise to use
> low-current wire/cable for them.

Same with extensions etc sold in the UK.

> (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I
> live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)

I can understand this, as practice is what matters. Diversity loading.
Not some theoretical maybe as Jerry insist on bringing up - even although
it has been explained to him time and time again.

Final ring circuits are for domestic premises only. For workshops or
offices where you have known fixed loads you'd stick to radials. As you'd
do for fixed heating in a domestic scenario.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[charles]

In article >,
Dave Plowman (News) > wrote:
> In article >,
> J. P. Gilliver (John) > wrote:
> > >Why do you find ring mains odd? Once you have daisy chained all the
> > >sockets it is an extremely sensible idea to complete the loop back to

> > If you happen to have laid them out in a ring manner anyway, yes.

> Why wouldn't you? There are less runs back to the CU than doing the same
> with radials, so surely not too difficult to design?

> > >the distribution board. For the cost of a few feet of cable, you have
> > >halved both the effective resistance of the mains and the distance to
> > >the furthest socket. I can't imagine a single reason not to do it.
> > >
> > >d

> > I can see the halving of the resistance (well, at the most remote point
> > anyway), but not the halving of the distance.

> > I think maintenance (I mean when modifying, not just general wear and
> > tear): most extras added to ring mains are spurs. (Also, instinctively,
> > it's easier to know when one is isolated with a spur, though that
> > shouldn't be done that way.)

> You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it so much more
> difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?

Access to the wiring might be a problem.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"John Williamson" > wrote in message
...
> Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>> > wrote:

>>>> (excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
>>>> the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
>>> It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.
>>>

>> UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
>> drivers.

> Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to the
> ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.

> Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of countries
> which drive on which side.

After all, the Right side is the right side...

[Ron[_11_]]

On 30/01/2012 16:24, Arny Krueger wrote:
> "John > wrote in message
> ...
>> Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>>> > wrote:
>
>>>>> (excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
>>>>> the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
>>>> It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.
>>>>
>
>>> UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
>>> drivers.
>
>> Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to the
>> ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.
>
>> Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of countries
>> which drive on which side.
>
> After all, the Right side is the right side...
>
>

You mean the French side ;)

Ron

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> On 30/01/2012 16:24, Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "John > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Don Pearce wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>>>> > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> (excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
>>>>>> the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
>>>>> It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.
>>>>>
>>
>>>> UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
>>>> drivers.
>>
>>> Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to the
>>> ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.
>>
>>> Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of countries
>>> which drive on which side.
>>
>> After all, the Right side is the right side...
>>
>>
>
> You mean the French side ;)

and German and...

The good news is that most of the major car manufacturers have figured out
to make cars of either format on the same production line, etc.

[J G Miller]

On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:24:28h -0500, Arny Krueger declared:

> After all, the Right side is the right side...

Will somebody not think of the bus drivers?

Is it easier for bus drivers to take fares and issue tickets
to people boarding the bus from the left hand side or the
right hand side when usually most bus drivers are right handed?

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:25:23 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> wrote:

>In message >, Don Pearce
> writes:
>>On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:48:39 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> wrote:
>>
>>>(I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and others: I
>>>live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)
>>
>>Why do you find ring mains odd? Once you have daisy chained all the
>>sockets it is an extremely sensible idea to complete the loop back to
>
>If you happen to have laid them out in a ring manner anyway, yes.
>
>>the distribution board. For the cost of a few feet of cable, you have
>>halved both the effective resistance of the mains and the distance to
>>the furthest socket. I can't imagine a single reason not to do it.
>>
>>d
>
>I can see the halving of the resistance (well, at the most remote point
>anyway), but not the halving of the distance.
>

For the most remote socket, the distance can be reduced to almost zero
by completing the loop (assuming the run goes around the house and
almost back again. For any socket beyond half distance, the run is
reduced. Half was just an estimate.

>I think maintenance (I mean when modifying, not just general wear and
>tear): most extras added to ring mains are spurs. (Also, instinctively,
>it's easier to know when one is isolated with a spur, though that
>shouldn't be done that way.)

Spurs are allowed on a ring main, but to a single point only (which
can of course be a double socket).

d

[J G Miller]

On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:43:42h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>>"Ron" > wrote in message
>>
>> You mean the French side ;)
>
> and German and...

Most of the map at <http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic>
is red.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:55:38 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller >
wrote:

>On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:43:42h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>>"Ron" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> You mean the French side ;)
>>
>> and German and...
>
>Most of the map at <http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic>
>is red.

The good bits are blue.

d

[JohnT]

"J G Miller" > wrote in message
...
> On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:24:28h -0500, Arny Krueger declared:
>
>> After all, the Right side is the right side...
>
> Will somebody not think of the bus drivers?
>
> Is it easier for bus drivers to take fares and issue tickets
> to people boarding the bus from the left hand side or the
> right hand side when usually most bus drivers are right handed?

It must be a long time since you were last on a bus.

--
JohnT

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:45:02 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller >
wrote:

>On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:24:28h -0500, Arny Krueger declared:
>
>> After all, the Right side is the right side...
>
>Will somebody not think of the bus drivers?
>
>Is it easier for bus drivers to take fares and issue tickets
>to people boarding the bus from the left hand side or the
>right hand side when usually most bus drivers are right handed?

Fares? Nobody takes fares on buses any more.

d

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
J G Miller > wrote:
> On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:24:28h -0500, Arny Krueger declared:
>
> > After all, the Right side is the right side...

> Will somebody not think of the bus drivers?

> Is it easier for bus drivers to take fares and issue tickets
> to people boarding the bus from the left hand side or the
> right hand side when usually most bus drivers are right handed?

Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-)

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[J G Miller]

On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 17:50:21h +0000, Don Pearce wrote:

> Fares? Nobody takes fares on buses any more.

Nonsense. All depends on the bus company.

And what if you want a transfer [slip]?

On some bus line extensions, you even pay an extra fare
when you get off the bus.

[Ron[_11_]]

On 30/01/2012 18:12, J G Miller wrote:
> On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 17:50:21h +0000, Don Pearce wrote:
>
>> Fares? Nobody takes fares on buses any more.
>
> Nonsense. All depends on the bus company.


And the country

Ron

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:12:00 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller >
wrote:

>On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 17:50:21h +0000, Don Pearce wrote:
>
>> Fares? Nobody takes fares on buses any more.
>
>Nonsense. All depends on the bus company.
>
>And what if you want a transfer [slip]?
>
>On some bus line extensions, you even pay an extra fare
>when you get off the bus.

No idea what you are talking about, I'm afraid. I get on the bus,
swipe my card then get off when I'm there.

d

[Trevor Wilson]

On 1/31/2012 3:24 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
> "John > wrote in message
> ...
>> Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:53:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>>> > wrote:
>
>>>>> (excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
>>>>> the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
>>>> It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.
>>>>
>
>>> UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
>>> drivers.
>
>> Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to the
>> ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.
>
>> Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of countries
>> which drive on which side.
>
> After all, the Right side is the right side...
>
>

**Why? I've driven cars on both sides, in several countries. As long as
everyone else has it figured out, there seems to be no real problem.
HOWEVER, I would posit that, when driving an automobile with a manual
gearbox, using one's right hand to control the wheel (assuming one is
right handed), with the other hand using the gear change, is a better idea.

As it happens, I am suddenly in the market for a new (second hand)
automobile. The advantage for me is that I can easily purchase a direct
Japense import, with low milage and in very good condition for quite
good prices and without any need to convert to local conditions.

FWIW: A Nissan Stagea beckons.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

[Andy Champ[_2_]]

On 29/01/2012 18:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> ... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
>> > never been used in England.
> IIRC, it has. The UK one was changed sometime after US independence. They
> stuck to the old units, understandably.

I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but a little rummage suggest the US
gallon is based on the English Gallon as used for Wine, and there was no
unified English Gallon.

I'm also quite prepared for someone to say British not English...

Andy

[Trevor Wilson]

On 1/31/2012 4:50 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:45:02 +0000 (UTC), J G >
> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:24:28h -0500, Arny Krueger declared:
>>
>>> After all, the Right side is the right side...
>>
>> Will somebody not think of the bus drivers?
>>
>> Is it easier for bus drivers to take fares and issue tickets
>> to people boarding the bus from the left hand side or the
>> right hand side when usually most bus drivers are right handed?
>
> Fares? Nobody takes fares on buses any more.
>
> d

**Yes, they do.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

[J G Miller]

On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 18:20:14h +0000, Don Pearce wrote:

> No idea what you are talking about, I'm afraid. I get on the bus, swipe
> my card then get off when I'm there.

Well that is probably what all bus companies would like everybody to do
and do away with cash fares entirely.

They have you money before you use any of their services and they
can keep track of where you have been traveling, which they can
cross-reference with the on board video surveillance camera tapes.

[S Viemeister]

On 1/30/2012 2:56 PM, Andy Champ wrote:
> On 29/01/2012 18:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> ... except pints and gallons of course. The US "English" system has
>>> > never been used in England.
>> IIRC, it has. The UK one was changed sometime after US independence. They
>> stuck to the old units, understandably.
>
> I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but a little rummage suggest the US
> gallon is based on the English Gallon as used for Wine, and there was no
> unified English Gallon.
>
There were a number of different gallons, used for different things, in
different places. And yes, I believe it was the wine gallon.

> I'm also quite prepared for someone to say British not English...
>

:)

[UnsteadyKen]

Trevor Wilson wrote...

> I would posit that, when driving an automobile with a manual
> gearbox, using one's right hand to control the wheel (assuming one is
> right handed), with the other hand using the gear change, is a better idea.
>
I'm right handed and learnt to drive in Germany and found that using
the right hand to manipulate the gear lever and handbrake felt natural
and controlled. It seemed awkward when I first drove in the UK and it
took a while to adjust.

--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

[Trevor Wilson]

On 1/31/2012 8:14 AM, UnsteadyKen wrote:
>
> Trevor Wilson wrote...
>
>> I would posit that, when driving an automobile with a manual
>> gearbox, using one's right hand to control the wheel (assuming one is
>> right handed), with the other hand using the gear change, is a better idea.
>>
> I'm right handed and learnt to drive in Germany and found that using
> the right hand to manipulate the gear lever and handbrake felt natural
> and controlled. It seemed awkward when I first drove in the UK and it
> took a while to adjust.
>

**I'm sure that would be the case. I learned to drive in Australia,
using a 'three on the tree' and later a four speed, floor mounted manual
gearbox. I now drive a five speed manual gearbox car. I've driven auto
gearbox cars in the US and elsewhere. I reckon that trying to drive a
manual gearbox in the US would be a difficult adjustment to make, though
using an auto box was easy enough.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> writes:
>In article >,
> J. P. Gilliver (John) > wrote:
>> >Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you know
>> >nothing about.
>> >
>> Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so that they do
>> not have great mechanical strength.
>
>Where will you find an appliance sold fitted with 1A flex and a 13 amp
>plug?

That was exactly my point: 1A leads (flex) are virtually non-existent
now, even if captive and the appliance draws 1A or less. Whatever the
consumption, if sold for use in UK, it will now have a "13A" plug, as
that is the only type of socket in the majority of homes and workplaces.
(Strictly a "BS1363" plug - many variants aren't actually capable of
carrying 13A continuously, especially the ones where the pins are made
of folded metal.)
>
>> Therefore Jerry's statement that
>> mains leads (in US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than
>> absolutely necessary is valid.
>
>All appliances now sold in the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) are capable of
>blowing a 13 amp fuse in event of a fault on the line chord.

Confirming what I said above. (The flex rather than the appliance, but
I'm sure that's what you meant.) [Major or minor chord (-:?]
[]
>Final ring circuits are for domestic premises only. For workshops or
>offices where you have known fixed loads you'd stick to radials. As you'd
>do for fixed heating in a domestic scenario.
>
I was decidedly surprised to find a fan heater - fixed - in the lighting
circuit in this home (assembled 1999), in the shower room. (Not sure if
this home has ring circuits or not: it's a prefabricated building. I
haven't had any reason to investigate. It has a fairly
conventional-looking distribution unit.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in
many kinds of motivation, among other functions. The hypothalamus controls the
"Four F's": fighting, fleeing, feeding, and mating. -Heard in a neuropsychology
classroom

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message >, Don Pearce
> writes:
[]
>Fares? Nobody takes fares on buses any more.
>
>d

(And Dave Plowman.)

I had occasion to use buses several times in Newcastle (upon Tyne, north
England), earlier this month; I would say that the majority of
passengers were paying cash, or using free (disabled, age, or
schoolchildren) passes. I don't think they even _had_ any form of swipe
reader or similar. I would venture that the same applies in a lot of
England, probably Britain.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is one of the reasons being British is good. It's not a subset of
Britain - it's almost as if Britain is a subset of Radio 4. - Stephen Fry, in
Radio Times, 7-13 June, 2003.

[m[_4_]]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article >,
> Jerry > wrote:
>
>>The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
>>little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
>>unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
>>silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
>>and any other round bar)
>
>
> Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more than 13
> amps from a socket anyway?
>
> Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably did just
> that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed.
>
> Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry.
>

You just need 2 13A plugs on wires leading to a choc block where they
are connected in parallel - gives 32A then.
Just like we had avaialble in our test room at work to power the
satellite uplink.

And while we are on it, nothing like the VERY nasty UK sockets etc which
have stared to appear with Insulation displacement type connections
(like Krone/BT sockets but a tiny bit bigger)

Keep to a proper nice strong screw on terminal (and with a real slot so
any screwdriver works instead of these cra**y phirrips type heads that
just turn into a round groove when tightened!)

And of course the trend for screws that have cut threads and don't taper
so are useless for fixing into wallplugs as they don't expand them

And the nasty cup hooks I got the other day with no real points on the
thread (health and safety?) so won't screw in without pre-drilling and
are made of aluminium (aluminum for you US wrong-spellers) so shear off
when finally tightened

Mike
(grumpy old man)

[m[_4_]]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article >,
> J G Miller > wrote:
>
>>On Monday, January 30th, 2012, at 11:24:28h -0500, Arny Krueger declared:
>>
>>
>>>After all, the Right side is the right side...
>>
>
>>Will somebody not think of the bus drivers?
>
>
>>Is it easier for bus drivers to take fares and issue tickets
>>to people boarding the bus from the left hand side or the
>>right hand side when usually most bus drivers are right handed?
>
>
> Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-)
>

I hear the second person on the new "Boris bus" in london is
re-christened a CCA (Customer Care Assistant) and is primarily
responsible for stopping inexperienced tourists stepping off the rear
open step like proer Londoners do at traffic lights!

Hang on, there will be door at the rear and it will only be opened in
peak traffic areas

Mike

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Trevor Wilson > wrote:
> HOWEVER, I would posit that, when driving an automobile with a manual
> gearbox, using one's right hand to control the wheel (assuming one is
> right handed), with the other hand using the gear change, is a better
> idea.

I had a Riley Pathfinder. With a right hand floor change. Allowed a bench
front seat. ;-)

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
m > wrote:
> You just need 2 13A plugs on wires leading to a choc block where they
> are connected in parallel - gives 32A then.
> Just like we had avaialble in our test room at work to power the
> satellite uplink.

Obviously no H&S rep in those days then. ;-)

--
*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Paul Ratcliffe > wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:54:08 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News)
> > wrote:

> > Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-)

> There are buses in places other than Landun you know. They don't have
> Oyster.

Neither do I. But don't pay cash on the bus.

--
*It is wrong to ever split an infinitive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[David Looser]

"John Williamson" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> UK, Australia, New Zealand, India. All left side (proper side)
>> drivers.
>>
> Add Japan and most of Africa (Where the drivers don't just stick to the
> ruts, which normally match the track of a Land Rover.
>
Add Thailand as well.

> Currently, the split is about 50/50 in terms of the number of countries
> which drive on which side.
>
David.

[David Looser]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>
>>>
>>> After all, the Right side is the right side...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You mean the French side ;)
>
> and German and...
>
The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or
more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic on
the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still followed the
old Roman rule of passing on the left.

> The good news is that most of the major car manufacturers have figured out
> to make cars of either format on the same production line, etc.

Yes, its not a big deal. Although I have never driven across a land border
between left and right passing countries myself (its hard to drive across
the English Channel!) I have watched traffic crossing the border between
Thailand (drives on the left) and Burma (drives on the right). It all seemed
to work very smoothly.

David.

[Roderick Stewart[_2_]]

In article >, J G Miller wrote:
> > No idea what you are talking about, I'm afraid. I get on the bus, swipe
> > my card then get off when I'm there.
>
> Well that is probably what all bus companies would like everybody to do
> and do away with cash fares entirely.
>
> They have you money before you use any of their services and they
> can keep track of where you have been traveling, which they can
> cross-reference with the on board video surveillance camera tapes.

And there won't be large amounts of cash carried on board. Perhaps this
could make the bus companies less reluctant to provide services late at
night when they would otherwise be vulnerable to theft.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

[Roderick Stewart[_2_]]

In article >, J. P. Gilliver (John)
wrote:
> []
> >Fares? Nobody takes fares on buses any more.
> >
> >d
>
> (And Dave Plowman.)
>
> I had occasion to use buses several times in Newcastle (upon Tyne, north
> England), earlier this month; I would say that the majority of
> passengers were paying cash, or using free (disabled, age, or
> schoolchildren) passes. I don't think they even _had_ any form of swipe
> reader or similar. I would venture that the same applies in a lot of
> England, probably Britain.

It can only be a matter of time though. Merseyrail has some kind of
electronic sensing system at Central Station that will accept my old fogey
pass if it's just waved in the general vicinity of the ticket slot on one
of the exit barriers. Evidently the start of some master plan. I had no
idea my pass had any electronics in it, as it just looks like a piece of
printed plastic.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Roderick Stewart wrote:

> It can only be a matter of time though. Merseyrail has some kind of
> electronic sensing system at Central Station that will accept my old fogey
> pass if it's just waved in the general vicinity of the ticket slot on one
> of the exit barriers. Evidently the start of some master plan. I had no
> idea my pass had any electronics in it, as it just looks like a piece of
> printed plastic.

It's a RIFID (pronounced like the three legged plant) chip. They are in
everything these days. If you search youtube you can find some interesting
videos about them, including one of a person who put a 900mHz reader in his
car with an antenna covering a side window. He was able to read the information
on credit cards, driver's licenses, passports etc of people passing him in
other cars and on the street as he drove by.

The Mythbusters were going to do a show about them, and were told by the
credit card companies not to do it. Discovery Network agreed so they are
never going to do one.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:02:25 -0000, David Looser wrote:

> The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or
> more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic
> on the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still
> followed the old Roman rule of passing on the left.

Hum, I wonder of that has anything to do with which hand one would
have ones sword in? Most people are right handed so being on the
right makes it harder to take a swipe at some one passing.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Ron[_11_]]

On 31/01/2012 10:22, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:02:25 -0000, David Looser wrote:
>
>> The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or
>> more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic
>> on the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still
>> followed the old Roman rule of passing on the left.
>
> Hum, I wonder of that has anything to do with which hand one would
> have ones sword in? Most people are right handed so being on the
> right makes it harder to take a swipe at some one passing.
>

That's the usual explanation for driving on the left in Roman times.
Some say it was Napoleon who decreed driving on the right, some say it
was the Pope.

Incidentally, I was at a presentation about Barbados the other day, and
was told that it's not possible to hire a car in Barbados due to the
previous amount of traffic accidents involving hire cars. They drive on
the left, and the majority of tourists are American and can't get used
to driving on that side. I myself prefer to drive down the middle ;)

Ron

[David Looser]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Don Pearce
> > writes:
> []
>>We mix our units much more than that. Take temperatures - if it is
>>near freezing we use Centigrade, when it is hot we use Fahrenheit.
> []
> I suspect that for a lot of us, it's only the media - in fact, only the
> print media - who do this. I think in Celsius for both:

Likewise. The first time I was ever interested in air temperatures was on
holiday in 1960 in Switzerland where, naturally, they have used Celcius for
centuries. Then, since school physics used SI units, where was the point in
bothering with Farenheit?

> thirtysomething is too hot for me, much below twenty (unless there's
> absolutely no wind) too cold.

Below zero: freezing (literaly)
0 - 10: cold
10- 20: mild
20 - 30: pleasant
30 - 40: hot
40+ too hot

Seems simple enough to me!

> Our weather forecasts have been in C for some decades, albeit with the
> forecaster giving the F equivalent verbally (but not visually).

Indeed.

David.

> --

[Ron[_11_]]

On 31/01/2012 00:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In >,
> Paul > wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:54:08 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News)
>> > wrote:
>
>>> Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-)
>
>> There are buses in places other than Landun you know. They don't have
>> Oyster.
>
> Neither do I. But don't pay cash on the bus.
>
When in Belgium last year, I found that, on the tramways, there was no
place to pay the driver, and no 'conductor'.
Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked
tickets. I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it
seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole
system is remarkably cheap.

Ron

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Ron wrote:

> Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked
> tickets. I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it
> seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole
> system is remarkably cheap.

If it is anything like the system they just opened in Jerusalem, you can't.

With the Jerusalem system you can buy a ticket on a bus, you can buy a
ticket at the central bus station and you can buy a ticket at most stops
from a vending machine.

Once you are on the train there is no way to buy a ticket. There is a $50
fine if you are caught without one and some of the inspectors have been
fining people who had tickets that were supposed to be, but were not valid
due to an unadvertised change, when the ads all said there wasn't any.

If you go to one of the places they issue cards, you can get one with
your picture on it, which will reduce the price if you are a senior citizen,
student or disabled and you can buy a reduced price multi-trip ticket
or monthly pass which is recorded on the card.

I expect it is the same there too because the company which operates the
rail lines is either the same one or their competition.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

[Ron[_11_]]

On 31/01/2012 12:09, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Ron wrote:
>
>> Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked
>> tickets. I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it
>> seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole
>> system is remarkably cheap.
>
> If it is anything like the system they just opened in Jerusalem, you can't.
>
> With the Jerusalem system you can buy a ticket on a bus, you can buy a
> ticket at the central bus station and you can buy a ticket at most stops
> from a vending machine.
>
> Once you are on the train there is no way to buy a ticket. There is a $50
> fine if you are caught without one and some of the inspectors have been
> fining people who had tickets that were supposed to be, but were not valid
> due to an unadvertised change, when the ads all said there wasn't any.
>
> If you go to one of the places they issue cards, you can get one with
> your picture on it, which will reduce the price if you are a senior citizen,
> student or disabled and you can buy a reduced price multi-trip ticket
> or monthly pass which is recorded on the card.
>
> I expect it is the same there too because the company which operates the
> rail lines is either the same one or their competition.
>
> Geoff.
>

There are no ticket vending machines at most stops. There are terminus
stations where you can pay your fair and probably some kind of 'rover'
ticket, but between stations there are just halts.
Belgium and Holland are pretty laid back places.

On the buses you just pay the driver or wave your pass, just like here
in good old Blighty.

Ron

[David Looser]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> On 31/01/2012 10:22, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:02:25 -0000, David Looser wrote:
>>
>>> The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or
>>> more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic
>>> on the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still
>>> followed the old Roman rule of passing on the left.
>>
>> Hum, I wonder of that has anything to do with which hand one would
>> have ones sword in? Most people are right handed so being on the
>> right makes it harder to take a swipe at some one passing.
>>
>
> That's the usual explanation for driving on the left in Roman times. Some
> say it was Napoleon who decreed driving on the right, some say it was the
> Pope.

Which Pope?
>
> Incidentally, I was at a presentation about Barbados the other day, and
> was told that it's not possible to hire a car in Barbados due to the
> previous amount of traffic accidents involving hire cars. They drive on
> the left, and the majority of tourists are American and can't get used to
> driving on that side. I myself prefer to drive down the middle ;)
>

The problem I have in driving in the US is not driving on the right but the
unfamilaiar roadsigns and rules of the road. The very first time I drove in
the US I had just got off a direct flight from London to San Franscisco and
had to drive from there to a small town in Northern California via some
narrow, twisting mountain roads. To add to the fun I was navigating using a
rather poor map, I'd been awake for 24hrs and the light was fading fast. I
was never more glad to arrive unscathed at my destination!

David.

[David Looser]

"Jerry" > wrote
>
> The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
> little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
> unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
> silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
> and any other round bar) -

Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since
screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the
head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same
diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the
right size hanging around the house? not many.

For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item
submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village
where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that
the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting)
wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block
wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the
cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one
example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had
a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So
I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal
rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to
nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal
that will fit!

David.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
Ron > wrote:
> On 31/01/2012 00:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In >,
> > Paul > wrote:
> >> On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:54:08 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News)
> >> > wrote:
> >
> >>> Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-)
> >
> >> There are buses in places other than Landun you know. They don't have
> >> Oyster.
> >
> > Neither do I. But don't pay cash on the bus.
> >
> When in Belgium last year, I found that, on the tramways, there was no
> place to pay the driver, and no 'conductor'.
> Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked
> tickets. I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it
> seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole
> system is remarkably cheap.

Amsterdam in the '60s had a system where no money changed hands on the
trams. You bought books of tickets in a shop. Can't remember exactly how
evasion was policed.

--
*Ever stop to think and forget to start again?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Ron[_11_]]

On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote:
> > wrote
>>
>> The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
>> little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
>> unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
>> silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
>> and any other round bar) -
>
> Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since
> screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the
> head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same
> diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the
> right size hanging around the house? not many.
>
> For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item
> submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village
> where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged that
> the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting)
> wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of choc-block
> wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the
> cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had one
> example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that had
> a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So
> I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal
> rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to
> nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal
> that will fit!
>
> David.
>
>
Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil.

Ron

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article >, David Looser
> writes

>Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since
>screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut the
>head off the bolt.

It's just Jerry's fevered imagination running away with him again.

> As for round bar, well it would have to be the same
>diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly the
>right size hanging around the house?

Reminds me of the Americans using penny coins to short out the old
porcelain screw-in fuses when those blew.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[David Looser]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote:
>> > wrote
>>>
>>
> Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil.
>

Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you
come across it?

David.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article >,
David Looser > wrote:
> For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item
> submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village
> where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged
> that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass
> fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit
> of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired
> plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc.
> But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a
> BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped
> round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that
> people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any
> significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from
> another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal that will fit!

Indeed. As I said, how many homes will have a plug in appliance that draws
more than 13 amps so needs the fuse shorted out?

I'd say it's restricted to things like some welders and compressors -
which a keen DIYer might buy.

--
*Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush hour?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mortimer]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote:
>> > wrote
>>>
>>> The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
>>> little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
>>> unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
>>> silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
>>> and any other round bar) -
>>
>> Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since
>> screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut
>> the
>> head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same
>> diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly
>> the
>> right size hanging around the house? not many.
>>
>> For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item
>> submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village
>> where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged
>> that
>> the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass fitting)
>> wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of
>> choc-block
>> wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs, plugs with the
>> cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've only ever had
>> one
>> example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse in it, and that
>> had
>> a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs of the fuse-holder.
>> So
>> I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or bits of
>> metal
>> rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to
>> nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for bits of
>> metal
>> that will fit!

The best bit of electrical horror I encountered (and very nearly gave myself
a shock with) was the extension lead on my grandpa's mower: it had a
two-prong plug on the extension lead and a two-prong socket on the mower.
Wrong! That left the live pins exposed. OK, I know I should have unplugged
at the wall before disconnecting the mower from the extension lead to
untangle the cable. To spare his blushes, I quietly rewired it with the
socket on the extension lead and the plug on the mower while he wasn't
looking.