Gain stages

[Richard Chon]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.

Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
into to a Really Nice Compressor,
into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
into a Digi 001.

Seems to me that the critical link would be between the compressor and
Blue Tube preamp, since I cannot really adjust the gain between the
Digi 001 and my Mac, or between the Presonus and the Digi 001..

I'm told I need to use test tones along the signal chain. I'm not sure
how I would feed these into my Really Nice Compressor. In fact, I'm
really not clear on the methodology for this whole gain stage
adjustment. It's a mystery.

Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,





Richard Chon


To reply, remove the asterisk from my email address

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Richard Chon > wrote:

> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.


Are you sure about that? I don't think you'd get any signal at all if
you put the compressor between the microphone and the preamp, which
powers the microphone. Surely you put the compressor after the preamp,
don't you? I don't know what kind of controls are on the Presonus or
the 001 (set the 001 for "unity" and adjust the Presonus for desired
overall gain), but the RNC should be set to unity gain and in bypass
while you set your basic record levels. Then, when you engage the
compressor, you adjust the make-up gain to compensate for the average
amount of gain reduction you're getting on the meter. Thusly the
compressor will not change your average signal level. Occasionally I
used the gain control on the RNC to attenuate the output of a hot
preamp that lacks its own gain control, or to boost a weak signal from
a preamp being fed by a low-output microphone. But in general you want
a device like the RNC to hover around unity gain, which means the gain
control neeeds to match the compressor action. But keep it in bypass
until you get the rest of your gain structure set up.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Richard Chon > wrote:

> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.


Are you sure about that? I don't think you'd get any signal at all if
you put the compressor between the microphone and the preamp, which
powers the microphone. Surely you put the compressor after the preamp,
don't you? I don't know what kind of controls are on the Presonus or
the 001 (set the 001 for "unity" and adjust the Presonus for desired
overall gain), but the RNC should be set to unity gain and in bypass
while you set your basic record levels. Then, when you engage the
compressor, you adjust the make-up gain to compensate for the average
amount of gain reduction you're getting on the meter. Thusly the
compressor will not change your average signal level. Occasionally I
used the gain control on the RNC to attenuate the output of a hot
preamp that lacks its own gain control, or to boost a weak signal from
a preamp being fed by a low-output microphone. But in general you want
a device like the RNC to hover around unity gain, which means the gain
control neeeds to match the compressor action. But keep it in bypass
until you get the rest of your gain structure set up.

ulysses

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Richard Chon" > wrote in message
...
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>
> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.

That can't be correct unless you are you using an external phantom power
supply for the TLM103.

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Richard Chon" > wrote in message
...
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>
> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.

That can't be correct unless you are you using an external phantom power
supply for the TLM103.

[Richard Chon]

Sorry,

It's TLM-103 to ProSonus Blue Tube to RNC to Digi 001.


You're right.


On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:20:54 GMT, "Ricky W. Hunt"
> wrote:

>"Richard Chon" > wrote in message
...
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
>> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>>
>> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
>> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
>> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
>> into a Digi 001.
>
>That can't be correct unless you are you using an external phantom power
>supply for the TLM103.
>
>

Richard Chon


To reply, remove the asterisk from my email address

[Richard Chon]

Sorry,

It's TLM-103 to ProSonus Blue Tube to RNC to Digi 001.


You're right.


On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:20:54 GMT, "Ricky W. Hunt"
> wrote:

>"Richard Chon" > wrote in message
...
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
>> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>>
>> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
>> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
>> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
>> into a Digi 001.
>
>That can't be correct unless you are you using an external phantom power
>supply for the TLM103.
>
>

Richard Chon


To reply, remove the asterisk from my email address

[John Washburn]

"Richard Chon" wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>
> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.

First off, swap the mic pre and the compressor.

>
> Seems to me that the critical link would be between the compressor and
> Blue Tube preamp, since I cannot really adjust the gain between the
> Digi 001 and my Mac, or between the Presonus and the Digi 001..

Well, once the signal passes into the 001, you don't need to adjust it again
until you mix, so don't worry about that. As to the rest, sorting the order
of your chain solves that.

> I'm told I need to use test tones along the signal chain. I'm not sure
> how I would feed these into my Really Nice Compressor. In fact, I'm
> really not clear on the methodology for this whole gain stage
> adjustment. It's a mystery.

Set each stage so the it gives a good amount of signal without overloading
the next stage. The basic idea is that everytime you add gain, you add
noise, so you want to minimize adding gain later in the chain.

While you're sorting out gain staging, you might consider simplifying your
input path and just use the mic amps in the 001, which probably aren't that
much worse than the Presonus. Then later, when you've got a handle on that,
consider adding the other gear and note if/where/how it helps or hurts the
sound.

-jw

[John Washburn]

"Richard Chon" wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>
> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.

First off, swap the mic pre and the compressor.

>
> Seems to me that the critical link would be between the compressor and
> Blue Tube preamp, since I cannot really adjust the gain between the
> Digi 001 and my Mac, or between the Presonus and the Digi 001..

Well, once the signal passes into the 001, you don't need to adjust it again
until you mix, so don't worry about that. As to the rest, sorting the order
of your chain solves that.

> I'm told I need to use test tones along the signal chain. I'm not sure
> how I would feed these into my Really Nice Compressor. In fact, I'm
> really not clear on the methodology for this whole gain stage
> adjustment. It's a mystery.

Set each stage so the it gives a good amount of signal without overloading
the next stage. The basic idea is that everytime you add gain, you add
noise, so you want to minimize adding gain later in the chain.

While you're sorting out gain staging, you might consider simplifying your
input path and just use the mic amps in the 001, which probably aren't that
much worse than the Presonus. Then later, when you've got a handle on that,
consider adding the other gear and note if/where/how it helps or hurts the
sound.

-jw

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Richard Chon" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry,
>
> It's TLM-103 to ProSonus Blue Tube to RNC to Digi 001.

The TLM103 is very hot mic. You'll need very little gain. I can't run mine
over unity gain on my preamps.

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Richard Chon" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry,
>
> It's TLM-103 to ProSonus Blue Tube to RNC to Digi 001.

The TLM103 is very hot mic. You'll need very little gain. I can't run mine
over unity gain on my preamps.

[RL,nyc]

(Richard Chon) wrote in message >...
> Hello everyone,
> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>
> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.
>
> Seems to me that the critical link would be between the compressor and
> Blue Tube preamp, since I cannot really adjust the gain between the
> Digi 001 and my Mac, or between the Presonus and the Digi 001..
>
> I'm told I need to use test tones along the signal chain. I'm not sure
> how I would feed these into my Really Nice Compressor. In fact, I'm
> really not clear on the methodology for this whole gain stage
> adjustment. It's a mystery.
>
> Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Chon

dear richard,

i don't believe in any of this "crap" about "gain stages". the mic
goes into the pre-amp (not the compressor). turn it up till you get
happy. then comes the compresser. set the compressor to do what you
want it to do (you have to have some knowledge about what you want
outta the compressor --otherwise why use it? is it just something you
think you ought to do?) then the compressor will lower the volume of
the signal as it does it's job. because of that, the compressor will
have a knob marked "output". this is ANOTHER amplifier (gain stage).
it is designed to "make up" for the reduction in volume that happens
when it does its job. personally i almost never only use the
compressor output gain JUST to return the volume to "unity gain" (what
we started with) but also use it to get the color of the particular
compressor into the "sound" (as an example -- LOTS of engineers put
things into an 1176 compressor without turning the compression on, in
order to "get that sound"). that brings us back to the terrible adage
-- "use your ears". if it sounds good, it is.

TEST TONES??? are you using TAPE as a medium? Otherwise, forget
"Tones".

please see that my tounge is in cheek writing some of this. of course
the knowledge you are hoping someone will explain to you here is
important. but you should be able to get that by reading any number
of books available on audio recording. i have shelves of the stuff...
as important as buying a new pre amp. best luck with your recordings.
all success to ya.

best regards,
rl,nyc

[RL,nyc]

(Richard Chon) wrote in message >...
> Hello everyone,
> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>
> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.
>
> Seems to me that the critical link would be between the compressor and
> Blue Tube preamp, since I cannot really adjust the gain between the
> Digi 001 and my Mac, or between the Presonus and the Digi 001..
>
> I'm told I need to use test tones along the signal chain. I'm not sure
> how I would feed these into my Really Nice Compressor. In fact, I'm
> really not clear on the methodology for this whole gain stage
> adjustment. It's a mystery.
>
> Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Chon

dear richard,

i don't believe in any of this "crap" about "gain stages". the mic
goes into the pre-amp (not the compressor). turn it up till you get
happy. then comes the compresser. set the compressor to do what you
want it to do (you have to have some knowledge about what you want
outta the compressor --otherwise why use it? is it just something you
think you ought to do?) then the compressor will lower the volume of
the signal as it does it's job. because of that, the compressor will
have a knob marked "output". this is ANOTHER amplifier (gain stage).
it is designed to "make up" for the reduction in volume that happens
when it does its job. personally i almost never only use the
compressor output gain JUST to return the volume to "unity gain" (what
we started with) but also use it to get the color of the particular
compressor into the "sound" (as an example -- LOTS of engineers put
things into an 1176 compressor without turning the compression on, in
order to "get that sound"). that brings us back to the terrible adage
-- "use your ears". if it sounds good, it is.

TEST TONES??? are you using TAPE as a medium? Otherwise, forget
"Tones".

please see that my tounge is in cheek writing some of this. of course
the knowledge you are hoping someone will explain to you here is
important. but you should be able to get that by reading any number
of books available on audio recording. i have shelves of the stuff...
as important as buying a new pre amp. best luck with your recordings.
all success to ya.

best regards,
rl,nyc

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I'm trying to get my little project studio together and am told I need
> to adjust the gain stages in my signal chain.
>
> Essentially I'm going from TLM-103 microphone,
> into to a Really Nice Compressor,
> into a Presonus Blue Tube pre,
> into a Digi 001.
>
> Seems to me that the critical link would be between the compressor and
> Blue Tube preamp, since I cannot really adjust the gain between the
> Digi 001 and my Mac, or between the Presonus and the Digi 001..

The critical link is the gain between the microphone and the preamp.
That will determine the signal-to-noise ratio of the entire system.
And you should put the mic into the preamp, not into the RNC. The RNC
does not have a mic level input.

It's a crime that manufactuers don't put input gain controls on
recording devices (by the way, the Digi 001 IS "my Mac" as far as gain
goes), but you can use the RNC's output level (gain) control to adjust
the level going to the Digi 001.

> I'm told I need to use test tones along the signal chain. I'm not sure
> how I would feed these into my Really Nice Compressor. In fact, I'm
> really not clear on the methodology for this whole gain stage
> adjustment. It's a mystery.

You want to boost the mic up to "line" level (the nominal operating
level) of the next device in the chain, and from then on, you want to
have no major changes in gain until it gets to the destination. In
other words, you shouldn't have to either add gain or reduce gain to
get a device into its working range. Tones are handy to get in the
ballpark, but music will do. Shoot for none of the device's level or
gain controls (other than the mic preamp) to be very far off 0 dB (or
unity gain, if that's how it's marked).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )