Monitoring input with a mixerless DAW

[tferrell]

I understand that one of the drawbacks of a PC DAW can be the inability
to monitor the signal coming out of the pre. I'm essentially a hobbyist
with a semi-pro/pro budget, which makes me more than a little
dangerous. Can someone help me fill in some very basic knowledge gaps?

I recently put together a Win/Nuendo DAW that I feed with Schoeps and
Neumanns through a couple of channels of Sonosax preamplification, a
Focusrite Octopre, occasionally a Spirit Folio F1 when I need more pres
and either a Nuendo Multiset or RME ADI 8 Pro for A/D. I'm considering
a serious preamp upgrade as I'm not pleased with the Octopre; which I
find a bit dark and dull, but nevertheless, quite a lot of value for the
money.

Essentially, what I've been doing is turning up the gain on the pres
until I get the proper level. I watch for overloads, but haven't had
any significant problems. When you guys are setting preamp levels, are
you listening to what sounds best in determining how much gain to
provide or are you listening simply to ensure that you are not
overloading the pre or having any other issues? If you are applying
gain based on what sounds best to your ear, what if what sounds best to
you is not giving you the proper level in a software-based DAW? With
the multiset, I cannot apply any additional gain after the pre.

Finally, if I need to be monitoring my pres, what are my options with a
mixerless DAW? Is my only alternative to place a mixer inline?

Forgive my ignorance...but I'd like to clear up any misconceptions
before my run of dumb luck runs out...

Tim

[DJ]

I use the following monitor setup:

Digital output of (choose your own setup here) DAW to digital input of a
Benchmark DAC-1

Analog output of Benchmark DAC-1 to analog input NHT passive volume control.

Analog output of NHT PVC to analog input of NHT A-20/B-20 power amps

NHT power amps to NHT A-20 reference monitors and B-20 subwoofers (choose
your own flavor of active/passive monitors here)

This is an extremely revealing monitoring chain down to around 25Hz if your
room allows.

I'm currently using all outboard preamps.

My DAW allows itself to be used like an analog mixer with no audible latency
so that's my mixer.

There are lots of flavors of preamps out there. Lots of nice ones if your
budget will allow. I'm really enjoying the stuff that Fred Forssell is
building these days. Last year I demoed one of his new hybrid tube preamps.
This unit is likely next on my list. I also own one of his CS-1 units.
Definitely worth a listen if you're considering the boutique preamp route.

DJ


"tferrell" > wrote in message
...
> I understand that one of the drawbacks of a PC DAW can be the inability
> to monitor the signal coming out of the pre. I'm essentially a hobbyist
> with a semi-pro/pro budget, which makes me more than a little
> dangerous. Can someone help me fill in some very basic knowledge gaps?
>
> I recently put together a Win/Nuendo DAW that I feed with Schoeps and
> Neumanns through a couple of channels of Sonosax preamplification, a
> Focusrite Octopre, occasionally a Spirit Folio F1 when I need more pres
> and either a Nuendo Multiset or RME ADI 8 Pro for A/D. I'm considering
> a serious preamp upgrade as I'm not pleased with the Octopre; which I
> find a bit dark and dull, but nevertheless, quite a lot of value for the
> money.
>
> Essentially, what I've been doing is turning up the gain on the pres
> until I get the proper level. I watch for overloads, but haven't had
> any significant problems. When you guys are setting preamp levels, are
> you listening to what sounds best in determining how much gain to
> provide or are you listening simply to ensure that you are not
> overloading the pre or having any other issues? If you are applying
> gain based on what sounds best to your ear, what if what sounds best to
> you is not giving you the proper level in a software-based DAW? With
> the multiset, I cannot apply any additional gain after the pre.
>
> Finally, if I need to be monitoring my pres, what are my options with a
> mixerless DAW? Is my only alternative to place a mixer inline?
>
> Forgive my ignorance...but I'd like to clear up any misconceptions
> before my run of dumb luck runs out...
>
> Tim
>

[DJ]

I use the following monitor setup:

Digital output of (choose your own setup here) DAW to digital input of a
Benchmark DAC-1

Analog output of Benchmark DAC-1 to analog input NHT passive volume control.

Analog output of NHT PVC to analog input of NHT A-20/B-20 power amps

NHT power amps to NHT A-20 reference monitors and B-20 subwoofers (choose
your own flavor of active/passive monitors here)

This is an extremely revealing monitoring chain down to around 25Hz if your
room allows.

I'm currently using all outboard preamps.

My DAW allows itself to be used like an analog mixer with no audible latency
so that's my mixer.

There are lots of flavors of preamps out there. Lots of nice ones if your
budget will allow. I'm really enjoying the stuff that Fred Forssell is
building these days. Last year I demoed one of his new hybrid tube preamps.
This unit is likely next on my list. I also own one of his CS-1 units.
Definitely worth a listen if you're considering the boutique preamp route.

DJ


"tferrell" > wrote in message
...
> I understand that one of the drawbacks of a PC DAW can be the inability
> to monitor the signal coming out of the pre. I'm essentially a hobbyist
> with a semi-pro/pro budget, which makes me more than a little
> dangerous. Can someone help me fill in some very basic knowledge gaps?
>
> I recently put together a Win/Nuendo DAW that I feed with Schoeps and
> Neumanns through a couple of channels of Sonosax preamplification, a
> Focusrite Octopre, occasionally a Spirit Folio F1 when I need more pres
> and either a Nuendo Multiset or RME ADI 8 Pro for A/D. I'm considering
> a serious preamp upgrade as I'm not pleased with the Octopre; which I
> find a bit dark and dull, but nevertheless, quite a lot of value for the
> money.
>
> Essentially, what I've been doing is turning up the gain on the pres
> until I get the proper level. I watch for overloads, but haven't had
> any significant problems. When you guys are setting preamp levels, are
> you listening to what sounds best in determining how much gain to
> provide or are you listening simply to ensure that you are not
> overloading the pre or having any other issues? If you are applying
> gain based on what sounds best to your ear, what if what sounds best to
> you is not giving you the proper level in a software-based DAW? With
> the multiset, I cannot apply any additional gain after the pre.
>
> Finally, if I need to be monitoring my pres, what are my options with a
> mixerless DAW? Is my only alternative to place a mixer inline?
>
> Forgive my ignorance...but I'd like to clear up any misconceptions
> before my run of dumb luck runs out...
>
> Tim
>

[John]

>
>Finally, if I need to be monitoring my pres, what are my options with a
>mixerless DAW? Is my only alternative to place a mixer inline?
>
>Forgive my ignorance...but I'd like to clear up any misconceptions
>before my run of dumb luck runs out...
>
>Tim

If you've got the cash for Neumanns and Schoeps, why do you not have a mixer in
there just for monitoring? That's all mine is used for. I have an O1v, which
can be bought cheap on ebay. Basically I monitor with it. I don't use it for
mixing, or applying FX of any sort. Sometimes I'll use the A/Ds on it for
non-critical stuff like drums, but otherwise I convert through a Lucid 9624.
I actually like to mix with a mouse (contrary to most folks).

-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[John]

>
>Finally, if I need to be monitoring my pres, what are my options with a
>mixerless DAW? Is my only alternative to place a mixer inline?
>
>Forgive my ignorance...but I'd like to clear up any misconceptions
>before my run of dumb luck runs out...
>
>Tim

If you've got the cash for Neumanns and Schoeps, why do you not have a mixer in
there just for monitoring? That's all mine is used for. I have an O1v, which
can be bought cheap on ebay. Basically I monitor with it. I don't use it for
mixing, or applying FX of any sort. Sometimes I'll use the A/Ds on it for
non-critical stuff like drums, but otherwise I convert through a Lucid 9624.
I actually like to mix with a mouse (contrary to most folks).

-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[tferrell]

John wrote:

> If you've got the cash for Neumanns and Schoeps, why do you not have a mixer in
> there just for monitoring? That's all mine is used for.

Because I'm a dumb ass...that's kind of what I'm asking...I didn't know I needed
to...

Won't the mixer affect my signal...even at unity gain?

[tferrell]

John wrote:

> If you've got the cash for Neumanns and Schoeps, why do you not have a mixer in
> there just for monitoring? That's all mine is used for.

Because I'm a dumb ass...that's kind of what I'm asking...I didn't know I needed
to...

Won't the mixer affect my signal...even at unity gain?

[John]

>Because I'm a dumb ass...that's kind of what I'm asking...I didn't know I
>needed
>to...
>
>Won't the mixer affect my signal...even at unity gain?

As to whether or not the mixer will affect the signal you get to disk, depends
on how you use it. I find mine very handy for cue mixing, and creating a
seperate control room/live room feed. I had a thread on here way back asking
about using the O1v for talkback. The fact that it has separate assignable
outs allowed me to use it for talkback. I have found this invaluable.

If you are using the convertors on the board to get into the computer, then
yes, it will affect your signal. There's no arguing that. But if you have
outboard convertors already, you can go into the board digitally, and just use
it in a sense, for confidence monitoring. If you turn the EQ and FX off on
your inputs, the the mixer _should_ not impart any of it's attributes to your
material at unity. This is assuming you aren't doing SRC or truncating at the
output of the board, before the DAW.

Some may consider my setup odd (or not) but here's how I use my mixer to
monitor without drastically changing the signal. I run through my outboard
convertors into my DAW and record there, and send those channels from my DAW
back into my mixer digitally so I can monitor them. That way, what gets
recorded has none of the o1v's sonic characteristics on it (for better or
worse). But I'm able to monitor the signal on the mixer, and change the levels
as needed (using it for cue mixing), which is feeding the headphone amp. Also,
this way I'm still getting a 24 bit signal to disk, even though the mixer is
only 20 bit (actually, it'll send a 24 bit word, but the last 4 bits are
useless, since the convertors are 20). If I was using a true 24 bit mixer,
then this would be a non-issue. I believe the new o1v96 would fit the bill.
This setup was not exactly intuitive to me. It took me quite a bit of
experimentation with routing, etc., so please don't feel like a dumbass. This
is just what I have figured out for myself, and it works great for me.

I sincerely hope this helps rather than muddying the waters. {whew}


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[John]

>Because I'm a dumb ass...that's kind of what I'm asking...I didn't know I
>needed
>to...
>
>Won't the mixer affect my signal...even at unity gain?

As to whether or not the mixer will affect the signal you get to disk, depends
on how you use it. I find mine very handy for cue mixing, and creating a
seperate control room/live room feed. I had a thread on here way back asking
about using the O1v for talkback. The fact that it has separate assignable
outs allowed me to use it for talkback. I have found this invaluable.

If you are using the convertors on the board to get into the computer, then
yes, it will affect your signal. There's no arguing that. But if you have
outboard convertors already, you can go into the board digitally, and just use
it in a sense, for confidence monitoring. If you turn the EQ and FX off on
your inputs, the the mixer _should_ not impart any of it's attributes to your
material at unity. This is assuming you aren't doing SRC or truncating at the
output of the board, before the DAW.

Some may consider my setup odd (or not) but here's how I use my mixer to
monitor without drastically changing the signal. I run through my outboard
convertors into my DAW and record there, and send those channels from my DAW
back into my mixer digitally so I can monitor them. That way, what gets
recorded has none of the o1v's sonic characteristics on it (for better or
worse). But I'm able to monitor the signal on the mixer, and change the levels
as needed (using it for cue mixing), which is feeding the headphone amp. Also,
this way I'm still getting a 24 bit signal to disk, even though the mixer is
only 20 bit (actually, it'll send a 24 bit word, but the last 4 bits are
useless, since the convertors are 20). If I was using a true 24 bit mixer,
then this would be a non-issue. I believe the new o1v96 would fit the bill.
This setup was not exactly intuitive to me. It took me quite a bit of
experimentation with routing, etc., so please don't feel like a dumbass. This
is just what I have figured out for myself, and it works great for me.

I sincerely hope this helps rather than muddying the waters. {whew}


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[tferrell]

Perhaps, I should clarify; I'm recording almost exclusively live on location. I
believe my confusion was that I thought folks were suggesting I needed to
monitor the signal prior to the DAW...not after. I had the mistaken impression
that I needed to hear what was coming directly out of the pres. I'm assuming,
now, that IS a mistaken impression?

I've got an RME 9652 and HR824s for mix monitoring in post.

Tim

[tferrell]

Perhaps, I should clarify; I'm recording almost exclusively live on location. I
believe my confusion was that I thought folks were suggesting I needed to
monitor the signal prior to the DAW...not after. I had the mistaken impression
that I needed to hear what was coming directly out of the pres. I'm assuming,
now, that IS a mistaken impression?

I've got an RME 9652 and HR824s for mix monitoring in post.

Tim

[Arny Krueger]

"tferrell" > wrote in message


> I understand that one of the drawbacks of a PC DAW can be the
> inability to monitor the signal coming out of the pre. I'm
> essentially a hobbyist with a semi-pro/pro budget, which makes me
> more than a little dangerous. Can someone help me fill in some very
> basic knowledge gaps?

> I recently put together a Win/Nuendo DAW that I feed with Schoeps and
> Neumanns through a couple of channels of Sonosax preamplification, a
> Focusrite Octopre, occasionally a Spirit Folio F1 when I need more
> pres and either a Nuendo Multiset or RME ADI 8 Pro for A/D. I'm
> considering a serious preamp upgrade as I'm not pleased with the
> Octopre; which I find a bit dark and dull, but nevertheless, quite a
> lot of value for the money.

> Essentially, what I've been doing is turning up the gain on the pres
> until I get the proper level. I watch for overloads, but haven't had
> any significant problems. When you guys are setting preamp levels,
> are you listening to what sounds best in determining how much gain to
> provide or are you listening simply to ensure that you are not
> overloading the pre or having any other issues? If you are applying
> gain based on what sounds best to your ear, what if what sounds best
> to you is not giving you the proper level in a software-based DAW?
> With the multiset, I cannot apply any additional gain after the pre.

> Finally, if I need to be monitoring my pres, what are my options with
> a mixerless DAW? Is my only alternative to place a mixer inline?

> Forgive my ignorance...but I'd like to clear up any misconceptions
> before my run of dumb luck runs out...

IME the most dangerous misconception about digital recording is the idea
that it is essential to keep recorded levels as high as possible. That may
have been true in the past, but that was then and this is now.

When I record I initially get some feedback about levels from Adobe
Audition's real-time tracking display. I find it's pessimistic, and frankly
IME that's a good thing. It can be enlarged in real time for closer
examination.

I also record some rehearsal sounds and look at the tracks the edit screen
to get a better idea of what's happening. Audition's edit screen makes it
easy to loop through the tracks in quick succession.

I record at 24 bits so it's safe to leave lots of headroom - at least 10 dB
over what I see during rehearsal or during the last recording session.

I collect additional feedback about track levels when I mix down and work
that into the next recording session.

When I check tracks made with the room empty, I usually find that the
converter noise floor is generally 20-40 dB below the mic preamp + mic
noise + ambient room noise floor. That means to me that there is plenty of
margin at the bottom of the dynamic range. We all know that clipping sucks
mightily, so margin at the top is essential.

[Arny Krueger]

"tferrell" > wrote in message


> I understand that one of the drawbacks of a PC DAW can be the
> inability to monitor the signal coming out of the pre. I'm
> essentially a hobbyist with a semi-pro/pro budget, which makes me
> more than a little dangerous. Can someone help me fill in some very
> basic knowledge gaps?

> I recently put together a Win/Nuendo DAW that I feed with Schoeps and
> Neumanns through a couple of channels of Sonosax preamplification, a
> Focusrite Octopre, occasionally a Spirit Folio F1 when I need more
> pres and either a Nuendo Multiset or RME ADI 8 Pro for A/D. I'm
> considering a serious preamp upgrade as I'm not pleased with the
> Octopre; which I find a bit dark and dull, but nevertheless, quite a
> lot of value for the money.

> Essentially, what I've been doing is turning up the gain on the pres
> until I get the proper level. I watch for overloads, but haven't had
> any significant problems. When you guys are setting preamp levels,
> are you listening to what sounds best in determining how much gain to
> provide or are you listening simply to ensure that you are not
> overloading the pre or having any other issues? If you are applying
> gain based on what sounds best to your ear, what if what sounds best
> to you is not giving you the proper level in a software-based DAW?
> With the multiset, I cannot apply any additional gain after the pre.

> Finally, if I need to be monitoring my pres, what are my options with
> a mixerless DAW? Is my only alternative to place a mixer inline?

> Forgive my ignorance...but I'd like to clear up any misconceptions
> before my run of dumb luck runs out...

IME the most dangerous misconception about digital recording is the idea
that it is essential to keep recorded levels as high as possible. That may
have been true in the past, but that was then and this is now.

When I record I initially get some feedback about levels from Adobe
Audition's real-time tracking display. I find it's pessimistic, and frankly
IME that's a good thing. It can be enlarged in real time for closer
examination.

I also record some rehearsal sounds and look at the tracks the edit screen
to get a better idea of what's happening. Audition's edit screen makes it
easy to loop through the tracks in quick succession.

I record at 24 bits so it's safe to leave lots of headroom - at least 10 dB
over what I see during rehearsal or during the last recording session.

I collect additional feedback about track levels when I mix down and work
that into the next recording session.

When I check tracks made with the room empty, I usually find that the
converter noise floor is generally 20-40 dB below the mic preamp + mic
noise + ambient room noise floor. That means to me that there is plenty of
margin at the bottom of the dynamic range. We all know that clipping sucks
mightily, so margin at the top is essential.