Amplifier question - very basic

[rothman]

Hi,

I wish to connect two power amps together. Do I use parallel on both amps
and control volume on the bottom amp?

Thanks.

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>
>I wish to connect two power amps together. Do I use parallel on both amps
>and control volume on the bottom amp?

In general, paralleling modern transistor amps is a good way to start a fire.

You can bridge some amplifiers, but not all. Bridging gives you twice the
voltage output, but no more current, so if your goal is to drive lower Z
loads, it won't help. But if you need to sink more power into an eight-ohm
load with amps that can drive four ohms, bridging is the way to go.

What are you trying to do?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>
>I wish to connect two power amps together. Do I use parallel on both amps
>and control volume on the bottom amp?

In general, paralleling modern transistor amps is a good way to start a fire.

You can bridge some amplifiers, but not all. Bridging gives you twice the
voltage output, but no more current, so if your goal is to drive lower Z
loads, it won't help. But if you need to sink more power into an eight-ohm
load with amps that can drive four ohms, bridging is the way to go.

What are you trying to do?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[rothman]

Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.

I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps put
out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4 Ohm
amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.

So use parallel?

Doug



"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> rothman > wrote:
> >
> >I wish to connect two power amps together. Do I use parallel on both amps
> >and control volume on the bottom amp?
>
> In general, paralleling modern transistor amps is a good way to start a
fire.
>
> You can bridge some amplifiers, but not all. Bridging gives you twice the
> voltage output, but no more current, so if your goal is to drive lower Z
> loads, it won't help. But if you need to sink more power into an
eight-ohm
> load with amps that can drive four ohms, bridging is the way to go.
>
> What are you trying to do?
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[rothman]

Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.

I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps put
out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4 Ohm
amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.

So use parallel?

Doug



"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> rothman > wrote:
> >
> >I wish to connect two power amps together. Do I use parallel on both amps
> >and control volume on the bottom amp?
>
> In general, paralleling modern transistor amps is a good way to start a
fire.
>
> You can bridge some amplifiers, but not all. Bridging gives you twice the
> voltage output, but no more current, so if your goal is to drive lower Z
> loads, it won't help. But if you need to sink more power into an
eight-ohm
> load with amps that can drive four ohms, bridging is the way to go.
>
> What are you trying to do?
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
>
>I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps put
>out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4 Ohm
>amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.
>
>So use parallel?

No, you cannot parallel modern amps, as I said.

You can bridge them, if the amplifiers are capable of bridging. That gives
you considerably more power.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
>
>I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps put
>out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4 Ohm
>amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.
>
>So use parallel?

No, you cannot parallel modern amps, as I said.

You can bridge them, if the amplifiers are capable of bridging. That gives
you considerably more power.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Rob Reedijk]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:
> rothman > wrote:
>>Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
>>
>>I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps put
>>out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4 Ohm
>>amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.
>>
>>So use parallel?

> No, you cannot parallel modern amps, as I said.

> You can bridge them, if the amplifiers are capable of bridging. That gives
> you considerably more power.

To the original poster: I think what Scott is suggesting is that you can
take your 2 amps, which are probably stereo, run each one in bridged mode,
each one driving a single speaker. But only if the amps are capable of
being bridged.

Bridging a stereo amp renders it as a mono amp but driving about twice
as much power. But in can only be done on certain amps. Some amps
provide a bridge switch on them, and then you use the two red outputs
to drive one speaker.

Rob R.

[Rob Reedijk]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:
> rothman > wrote:
>>Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
>>
>>I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps put
>>out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4 Ohm
>>amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.
>>
>>So use parallel?

> No, you cannot parallel modern amps, as I said.

> You can bridge them, if the amplifiers are capable of bridging. That gives
> you considerably more power.

To the original poster: I think what Scott is suggesting is that you can
take your 2 amps, which are probably stereo, run each one in bridged mode,
each one driving a single speaker. But only if the amps are capable of
being bridged.

Bridging a stereo amp renders it as a mono amp but driving about twice
as much power. But in can only be done on certain amps. Some amps
provide a bridge switch on them, and then you use the two red outputs
to drive one speaker.

Rob R.

[anthony.gosnell]

"rothman" > wrote
> Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
>
> I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps
put
> out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4
Ohm
> amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.
>
> So use parallel?

The first thing I would experiment is with the placement of all of your
speakers. (Including those on guitar amps etc.)

A speaker on a guitar amp can be heard much more clearly when it is
reasonably close to and pointing at your ear. There are stands which are
made to elevate and tilt combo's but you can also use chairs and tables etc.
or just lean the amp back against a wall.

Now that everyone has their amp pointed in the right direction you will find
that the amplifiers can all be turned down a few notches and everyone can
hear a lot better. Please remember this when performing live too.

Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
parrallel or powered by a seperate amp.
You might also think about arranging your music so that their is some space
for the vocals.

--
Anthony Gosnell

to reply remove nospam.

[anthony.gosnell]

"rothman" > wrote
> Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
>
> I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps
put
> out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4
Ohm
> amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our noise.
>
> So use parallel?

The first thing I would experiment is with the placement of all of your
speakers. (Including those on guitar amps etc.)

A speaker on a guitar amp can be heard much more clearly when it is
reasonably close to and pointing at your ear. There are stands which are
made to elevate and tilt combo's but you can also use chairs and tables etc.
or just lean the amp back against a wall.

Now that everyone has their amp pointed in the right direction you will find
that the amplifiers can all be turned down a few notches and everyone can
hear a lot better. Please remember this when performing live too.

Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
parrallel or powered by a seperate amp.
You might also think about arranging your music so that their is some space
for the vocals.

--
Anthony Gosnell

to reply remove nospam.

[rothman]

Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information. So..Switch
to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on each
amp. Is this my understanding?

Then how do they connect all those multiple amps on say a stadium tour?

just curious.


Doug







"Rob Reedijk" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Dorsey > wrote:
> > rothman > wrote:
> >>Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
> >>
> >>I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps
put
> >>out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4
Ohm
> >>amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our
noise.
> >>
> >>So use parallel?
>
> > No, you cannot parallel modern amps, as I said.
>
> > You can bridge them, if the amplifiers are capable of bridging. That
gives
> > you considerably more power.
>
> To the original poster: I think what Scott is suggesting is that you can
> take your 2 amps, which are probably stereo, run each one in bridged mode,
> each one driving a single speaker. But only if the amps are capable of
> being bridged.
>
> Bridging a stereo amp renders it as a mono amp but driving about twice
> as much power. But in can only be done on certain amps. Some amps
> provide a bridge switch on them, and then you use the two red outputs
> to drive one speaker.
>
> Rob R.

[rothman]

Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information. So..Switch
to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on each
amp. Is this my understanding?

Then how do they connect all those multiple amps on say a stadium tour?

just curious.


Doug







"Rob Reedijk" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Dorsey > wrote:
> > rothman > wrote:
> >>Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
> >>
> >>I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps
put
> >>out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4
Ohm
> >>amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our
noise.
> >>
> >>So use parallel?
>
> > No, you cannot parallel modern amps, as I said.
>
> > You can bridge them, if the amplifiers are capable of bridging. That
gives
> > you considerably more power.
>
> To the original poster: I think what Scott is suggesting is that you can
> take your 2 amps, which are probably stereo, run each one in bridged mode,
> each one driving a single speaker. But only if the amps are capable of
> being bridged.
>
> Bridging a stereo amp renders it as a mono amp but driving about twice
> as much power. But in can only be done on certain amps. Some amps
> provide a bridge switch on them, and then you use the two red outputs
> to drive one speaker.
>
> Rob R.

[rothman]

anthony wrote:

>Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
> parallel or powered by a separate amp.

That is another question. My speakers do have an extra jack that it says is
wired in parallel. Can you simply daisy chain speakers without adding
resistance on one amp? Is this a fire hazard too? They are 8 Ohm speakers.
Thanks

Doug






"anthony.gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> "rothman" > wrote
> > Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
> >
> > I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps
> put
> > out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4
> Ohm
> > amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our
noise.
> >
> > So use parallel?
>
> The first thing I would experiment is with the placement of all of your
> speakers. (Including those on guitar amps etc.)
>
> A speaker on a guitar amp can be heard much more clearly when it is
> reasonably close to and pointing at your ear. There are stands which are
> made to elevate and tilt combo's but you can also use chairs and tables
etc.
> or just lean the amp back against a wall.
>
> Now that everyone has their amp pointed in the right direction you will
find
> that the amplifiers can all be turned down a few notches and everyone can
> hear a lot better. Please remember this when performing live too.
>
> Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
> parrallel or powered by a seperate amp.
> You might also think about arranging your music so that their is some
space
> for the vocals.
>
> --
> Anthony Gosnell
>
> to reply remove nospam.
>
>

[rothman]

anthony wrote:

>Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
> parallel or powered by a separate amp.

That is another question. My speakers do have an extra jack that it says is
wired in parallel. Can you simply daisy chain speakers without adding
resistance on one amp? Is this a fire hazard too? They are 8 Ohm speakers.
Thanks

Doug






"anthony.gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> "rothman" > wrote
> > Thank you Scott...I was worried about starting a fire.
> >
> > I want to get more power to two 12" speakers with an 8 Ohm load. My amps
> put
> > out best at 4 Ohms. It's for rehearsal and the 200 watts stereo from a 4
> Ohm
> > amp to 8 Ohm speakers is not loud enough to do vocals over all our
noise.
> >
> > So use parallel?
>
> The first thing I would experiment is with the placement of all of your
> speakers. (Including those on guitar amps etc.)
>
> A speaker on a guitar amp can be heard much more clearly when it is
> reasonably close to and pointing at your ear. There are stands which are
> made to elevate and tilt combo's but you can also use chairs and tables
etc.
> or just lean the amp back against a wall.
>
> Now that everyone has their amp pointed in the right direction you will
find
> that the amplifiers can all be turned down a few notches and everyone can
> hear a lot better. Please remember this when performing live too.
>
> Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
> parrallel or powered by a seperate amp.
> You might also think about arranging your music so that their is some
space
> for the vocals.
>
> --
> Anthony Gosnell
>
> to reply remove nospam.
>
>

[Arny Krueger]

"rothman" > wrote in message


> Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information.
> So..Switch to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different
> signal....and connect a single speaker to each amp using both
> positive terminals on each amp. Is this my understanding?

> Then how do they connect all those multiple amps on say a stadium
> tour?

> just curious.

(1) Multiple speakers or at least multiple speaker drivers, generally quite
visible.

(2) Bridged mode as appropriate.

[Arny Krueger]

"rothman" > wrote in message


> Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information.
> So..Switch to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different
> signal....and connect a single speaker to each amp using both
> positive terminals on each amp. Is this my understanding?

> Then how do they connect all those multiple amps on say a stadium
> tour?

> just curious.

(1) Multiple speakers or at least multiple speaker drivers, generally quite
visible.

(2) Bridged mode as appropriate.

[Rob Reedijk]

rothman > wrote:

> Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information. So..Switch
> to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
> connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on each
> amp. Is this my understanding?

Check the manuals for your amps. Follow the manuals' instructions.
Do your amps have bridging switches on them? Many don't.

Rob R.

[Rob Reedijk]

rothman > wrote:

> Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information. So..Switch
> to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
> connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on each
> amp. Is this my understanding?

Check the manuals for your amps. Follow the manuals' instructions.
Do your amps have bridging switches on them? Many don't.

Rob R.

[rothman]

Yes they have a bridged mono switch. The amp manual is sh*t, that is why I
came here.




"Rob Reedijk" > wrote in message
...
> rothman > wrote:
>
> > Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information.
So..Switch
> > to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
> > connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on
each
> > amp. Is this my understanding?
>
> Check the manuals for your amps. Follow the manuals' instructions.
> Do your amps have bridging switches on them? Many don't.
>
> Rob R.
>
>

[rothman]

Yes they have a bridged mono switch. The amp manual is sh*t, that is why I
came here.




"Rob Reedijk" > wrote in message
...
> rothman > wrote:
>
> > Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information.
So..Switch
> > to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
> > connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on
each
> > amp. Is this my understanding?
>
> Check the manuals for your amps. Follow the manuals' instructions.
> Do your amps have bridging switches on them? Many don't.
>
> Rob R.
>
>

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>
>Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information. So..Switch
>to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
>connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on each
>amp. Is this my understanding?

Right. When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
so they are producing twice the voltage.

>Then how do they connect all those multiple amps on say a stadium tour?

In most cases, they just have one amplifier per driver. Often you'll have
a a whole lot of drivers in the speaker arrays, and each one gets an amp
and some processing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>
>Thank You, Thank You......Rob, that was very helpful information. So..Switch
>to bridged mono on each amp....feed each amp a different signal....and
>connect a single speaker to each amp using both positive terminals on each
>amp. Is this my understanding?

Right. When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
so they are producing twice the voltage.

>Then how do they connect all those multiple amps on say a stadium tour?

In most cases, they just have one amplifier per driver. Often you'll have
a a whole lot of drivers in the speaker arrays, and each one gets an amp
and some processing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>anthony wrote:
>
>>Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
>> parallel or powered by a separate amp.
>
>That is another question. My speakers do have an extra jack that it says is
>wired in parallel. Can you simply daisy chain speakers without adding
>resistance on one amp? Is this a fire hazard too? They are 8 Ohm speakers.

If you parallel two 8 ohm speakers, they are presenting a 4 ohm load to
the amplifier.

This is fine if your amp is rated to handle a 4 ohm load, though when you
bridge the amplifier you are only able to drive twice the impedance that
each side of the amplifier can drive.

If your problem is that you cannot get enough power into the speaker, running
multiple speakers off one amp will make your problem worse.

All this stuff is discussed in the FAQ, or in the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement
Handbook.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>anthony wrote:
>
>>Oh and if your 12" speakers are still too soft you can add another pair in
>> parallel or powered by a separate amp.
>
>That is another question. My speakers do have an extra jack that it says is
>wired in parallel. Can you simply daisy chain speakers without adding
>resistance on one amp? Is this a fire hazard too? They are 8 Ohm speakers.

If you parallel two 8 ohm speakers, they are presenting a 4 ohm load to
the amplifier.

This is fine if your amp is rated to handle a 4 ohm load, though when you
bridge the amplifier you are only able to drive twice the impedance that
each side of the amplifier can drive.

If your problem is that you cannot get enough power into the speaker, running
multiple speakers off one amp will make your problem worse.

All this stuff is discussed in the FAQ, or in the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement
Handbook.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Graham Hinton]

In article >,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
>so they are producing twice the voltage.

I think I know what you meant to say, but it didn't come out right.

Try this:

Normally an amp drives between its output and ground (the black terminal).
If the power rail are +/- V volts the maximum voltage across the speaker is
V volts.
In bridge mode the inputs of both amp channels are connected together *but
one is inverted* so when one output is +V the other is -V and the voltage
between the two red terminals is 2V.
Doubling the voltage quadruples the power = V^2/R.

[Graham Hinton]

In article >,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
>so they are producing twice the voltage.

I think I know what you meant to say, but it didn't come out right.

Try this:

Normally an amp drives between its output and ground (the black terminal).
If the power rail are +/- V volts the maximum voltage across the speaker is
V volts.
In bridge mode the inputs of both amp channels are connected together *but
one is inverted* so when one output is +V the other is -V and the voltage
between the two red terminals is 2V.
Doubling the voltage quadruples the power = V^2/R.

[S O'Neill]

Graham Hinton wrote:
> Normally an amp drives between its output and ground (the black terminal).
> If the power rail are +/- V volts the maximum voltage across the speaker is
> V volts.
> In bridge mode the inputs of both amp channels are connected together *but
> one is inverted* so when one output is +V the other is -V and the voltage
> between the two red terminals is 2V.
> Doubling the voltage quadruples the power = V^2/R.

Which is why they also specify twice the load impedance (R here) to only supply
twice the power so as not to exceed the current rating of the amps.

[S O'Neill]

Graham Hinton wrote:
> Normally an amp drives between its output and ground (the black terminal).
> If the power rail are +/- V volts the maximum voltage across the speaker is
> V volts.
> In bridge mode the inputs of both amp channels are connected together *but
> one is inverted* so when one output is +V the other is -V and the voltage
> between the two red terminals is 2V.
> Doubling the voltage quadruples the power = V^2/R.

Which is why they also specify twice the load impedance (R here) to only supply
twice the power so as not to exceed the current rating of the amps.

[William Sommerwerck]

Just out of curiosity... what brand?

rothman wrote...

> Yes they have a bridged mono switch. The amp manual is sh*t,
> that is why I came here.

[William Sommerwerck]

Just out of curiosity... what brand?

rothman wrote...

> Yes they have a bridged mono switch. The amp manual is sh*t,
> that is why I came here.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:17:01 +0100,
(Graham Hinton) wrote:

>In article >,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
>>so they are producing twice the voltage.
>
>I think I know what you meant to say, but it didn't come out right.

On the contrary; Scott was exactly right. The amplifiers
appear in series to the load.


Chris Hornbeck
new email address

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:17:01 +0100,
(Graham Hinton) wrote:

>In article >,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
>>so they are producing twice the voltage.
>
>I think I know what you meant to say, but it didn't come out right.

On the contrary; Scott was exactly right. The amplifiers
appear in series to the load.


Chris Hornbeck
new email address

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >
> >>When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
> >>so they are producing twice the voltage.

(Graham Hinton) wrote:
> >
> >I think I know what you meant to say, but it didn't come out right.

Chris Hornbeck > wrote:

> On the contrary; Scott was exactly right. The amplifiers
> appear in series to the load.

Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
amp. That wouldn't be cool.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >
> >>When you bridge an amp, you are putting both sides of the amp in series,
> >>so they are producing twice the voltage.

(Graham Hinton) wrote:
> >
> >I think I know what you meant to say, but it didn't come out right.

Chris Hornbeck > wrote:

> On the contrary; Scott was exactly right. The amplifiers
> appear in series to the load.

Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
amp. That wouldn't be cool.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

anthony.gosnell > wrote:

> Now that everyone has their amp pointed in the right direction you will find
> that the amplifiers can all be turned down a few notches and everyone can
> hear a lot better. Please remember this when performing live too.


You're not a guitar player, are you?

Output volume level has almost nothing to do with where a guitarist
sets his amplifier's gain control.


ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

anthony.gosnell > wrote:

> Now that everyone has their amp pointed in the right direction you will find
> that the amplifiers can all be turned down a few notches and everyone can
> hear a lot better. Please remember this when performing live too.


You're not a guitar player, are you?

Output volume level has almost nothing to do with where a guitarist
sets his amplifier's gain control.


ulysses

[LeBaron & Alrich]

anthony.gosnell wrote:

> "Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote:

> > You're not a guitar player, are you?

> > Output volume level has almost nothing to do with where a guitarist
> > sets his amplifier's gain control.

> If you want distortion you should overload your pre-amp. You would be much
> better off getting a valve preamp and adding a couple of extra stages before
> the output valves.

In general I agree, but I know plenty of guitarists who get fabulous
tone who do not agree. They like the distortion from power tubes and/or
speakers being stressed and/or cabinets resonating. The ones in that
group who are sensitive to SPL use little amps, speakers that are easily
overdriven and flimsy cabinets, or sealed cabs to pull doen SPL while
givng the amp something to wrestle with.

There is as little point in telling a guitarist how to get sound as
there would be telling a violinist what strings or which rosin to use.
We get good guitarists and ****ty guitarists, and good violinists and
****ty violinists, but it's their gig, not ours.

When the sound person starts speaking in terms of "You should..."
communication generally starts to deteriorate rapidly. There are many
highways to great amplified instrument sounds and often someone has
already chosen the route they prefer. I may or may not agree, but that's
life.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

anthony.gosnell wrote:

> "Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote:

> > You're not a guitar player, are you?

> > Output volume level has almost nothing to do with where a guitarist
> > sets his amplifier's gain control.

> If you want distortion you should overload your pre-amp. You would be much
> better off getting a valve preamp and adding a couple of extra stages before
> the output valves.

In general I agree, but I know plenty of guitarists who get fabulous
tone who do not agree. They like the distortion from power tubes and/or
speakers being stressed and/or cabinets resonating. The ones in that
group who are sensitive to SPL use little amps, speakers that are easily
overdriven and flimsy cabinets, or sealed cabs to pull doen SPL while
givng the amp something to wrestle with.

There is as little point in telling a guitarist how to get sound as
there would be telling a violinist what strings or which rosin to use.
We get good guitarists and ****ty guitarists, and good violinists and
****ty violinists, but it's their gig, not ours.

When the sound person starts speaking in terms of "You should..."
communication generally starts to deteriorate rapidly. There are many
highways to great amplified instrument sounds and often someone has
already chosen the route they prefer. I may or may not agree, but that's
life.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Les Cargill]

"anthony.gosnell" wrote:
>
> "Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote
> > You're not a guitar player, are you?
> >
> > Output volume level has almost nothing to do with where a guitarist
> > sets his amplifier's gain control.
>
> If you want distortion you should overload your pre-amp. You would be much
> better off getting a valve preamp and adding a couple of extra stages before
> the output valves.
>
> Anthony Gosnell

While that sounds like a great thing in theory ( and essentially provided the
business model for Mesa Boogie amplifiers ), it is not exactly
the same thing. This is why people buy and use Fender Champs for
recording.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

"anthony.gosnell" wrote:
>
> "Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote
> > You're not a guitar player, are you?
> >
> > Output volume level has almost nothing to do with where a guitarist
> > sets his amplifier's gain control.
>
> If you want distortion you should overload your pre-amp. You would be much
> better off getting a valve preamp and adding a couple of extra stages before
> the output valves.
>
> Anthony Gosnell

While that sounds like a great thing in theory ( and essentially provided the
business model for Mesa Boogie amplifiers ), it is not exactly
the same thing. This is why people buy and use Fender Champs for
recording.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
> taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
> amp. That wouldn't be cool.

That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
at the same time.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
> taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
> amp. That wouldn't be cool.

That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
at the same time.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

anthony.gosnell > wrote:

> If you want distortion you should overload your pre-amp. You would be much
> better off getting a valve preamp and adding a couple of extra stages before
> the output valves.

I don't like the sound of an overloaded preamp. I like the sound of
power tubes distorting, output transformers saturating, and speaker
coils overheating. And I like the sound of guitar strings being moved
by pressure waves in the air.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

anthony.gosnell > wrote:

> If you want distortion you should overload your pre-amp. You would be much
> better off getting a valve preamp and adding a couple of extra stages before
> the output valves.

I don't like the sound of an overloaded preamp. I like the sound of
power tubes distorting, output transformers saturating, and speaker
coils overheating. And I like the sound of guitar strings being moved
by pressure waves in the air.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

LeBaron & Alrich > wrote:

> In general I agree, but I know plenty of guitarists who get fabulous
> tone who do not agree. They like the distortion from power tubes and/or
> speakers being stressed and/or cabinets resonating. The ones in that
> group who are sensitive to SPL use ... sealed cabs to pull down SPL while
> givng the amp something to wrestle with.

Hank, do you know some stuff about this that you would like to
elaborate on? How do sealed cabinets pull down SPL? And how do they
give the amp something to wrestle with? Are you talking about some
complex air pressure speaker damping impedance issue I don't
understand? Or do you just mean that the notes don't slip out the back
door and into a nearby microphone?

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

LeBaron & Alrich > wrote:

> In general I agree, but I know plenty of guitarists who get fabulous
> tone who do not agree. They like the distortion from power tubes and/or
> speakers being stressed and/or cabinets resonating. The ones in that
> group who are sensitive to SPL use ... sealed cabs to pull down SPL while
> givng the amp something to wrestle with.

Hank, do you know some stuff about this that you would like to
elaborate on? How do sealed cabinets pull down SPL? And how do they
give the amp something to wrestle with? Are you talking about some
complex air pressure speaker damping impedance issue I don't
understand? Or do you just mean that the notes don't slip out the back
door and into a nearby microphone?

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

writes:
>
> > Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
> > taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
> > amp. That wouldn't be cool.

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
> players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
> at the same time.

No, guitar players don't do that. They might run effects or preamps in
"sequence" (series), or run multiple input channels in parallel, but
I've never heard of anybody plugging their guitar amp's speaker output
into the instrument input of another guitar amp.


ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

writes:
>
> > Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
> > taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
> > amp. That wouldn't be cool.

Mike Rivers > wrote:

> That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
> players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
> at the same time.

No, guitar players don't do that. They might run effects or preamps in
"sequence" (series), or run multiple input channels in parallel, but
I've never heard of anybody plugging their guitar amp's speaker output
into the instrument input of another guitar amp.


ulysses

[Peter Kaersaa]

In article >,
says...
> writes:
> >
> > > Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
> > > taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
> > > amp. That wouldn't be cool.
>
> Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
> > That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
> > players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
> > at the same time.
>
> No, guitar players don't do that. They might run effects or preamps in
> "sequence" (series), or run multiple input channels in parallel, but
> I've never heard of anybody plugging their guitar amp's speaker output
> into the instrument input of another guitar amp.

Eddie van halen.


--
/ Peter Kaersaa

[Peter Kaersaa]

In article >,
says...
> writes:
> >
> > > Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
> > > taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
> > > amp. That wouldn't be cool.
>
> Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
> > That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
> > players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
> > at the same time.
>
> No, guitar players don't do that. They might run effects or preamps in
> "sequence" (series), or run multiple input channels in parallel, but
> I've never heard of anybody plugging their guitar amp's speaker output
> into the instrument input of another guitar amp.

Eddie van halen.


--
/ Peter Kaersaa

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Peter Kaersaa wrote:

> Eddie van halen.

Oh, yeah, but that was just a little Pignose or Marshall solid-state
practice amp. My dad used to do that too, now that I think about it.
I can't imagine doing it with the full output of a real power amp
though.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Peter Kaersaa wrote:

> Eddie van halen.

Oh, yeah, but that was just a little Pignose or Marshall solid-state
practice amp. My dad used to do that too, now that I think about it.
I can't imagine doing it with the full output of a real power amp
though.

ulysses

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Justin Ulysses Morse

>input channels in parallel, but
>I've never heard of anybody plugging their guitar amp's speaker output
>into the instrument input of another guitar amp.

"Cascading" Old, old fuzzy memory of playing front for some "famous" (briefly)
band, 196?, they used Standell amps and the lead guitar player did seem to be
cascading, resulting in a super-distorted sound. As I remember, *he* and the
rest of the band were pretty distorted, too.

Lonnie Mack, per report, used to do something with two Bandmasters and a little
Magnatone, didn't get to actually see that setup. "Very loud" according to
witnesses. --TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Justin Ulysses Morse

>input channels in parallel, but
>I've never heard of anybody plugging their guitar amp's speaker output
>into the instrument input of another guitar amp.

"Cascading" Old, old fuzzy memory of playing front for some "famous" (briefly)
band, 196?, they used Standell amps and the lead guitar player did seem to be
cascading, resulting in a super-distorted sound. As I remember, *he* and the
rest of the band were pretty distorted, too.

Lonnie Mack, per report, used to do something with two Bandmasters and a little
Magnatone, didn't get to actually see that setup. "Very loud" according to
witnesses. --TP

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

> LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
>
> > In general I agree, but I know plenty of guitarists who get fabulous
> > tone who do not agree. They like the distortion from power tubes and/or
> > speakers being stressed and/or cabinets resonating. The ones in that
> > group who are sensitive to SPL use ... sealed cabs to pull down SPL while
> > givng the amp something to wrestle with.

> Hank, do you know some stuff about this that you would like to
> elaborate on? How do sealed cabinets pull down SPL? And how do they
> give the amp something to wrestle with? Are you talking about some
> complex air pressure speaker damping impedance issue I don't
> understand?

"Infinite baffle" or sealed cabinets are less efficient than ported,
open back or otherwise vented cabinets. So back in the AWHQ daze I used
Strat > Alembic F2B > McIntosh MC75 tuber > sealed marine plywood
version of a 2 x 12" Bassman cab. I could drive the amp at a higher
level without getting SPL I didn't want compared to using an open back
or ported version of the same style of cabinet, all of which we had
lying around the studio.

> Or do you just mean that the notes don't slip out the back
> door and into a nearby microphone?

Right, the infinte baffle thing keeps the notes looking for a home they
will never find in this lifetime. Sad, really.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

> LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
>
> > In general I agree, but I know plenty of guitarists who get fabulous
> > tone who do not agree. They like the distortion from power tubes and/or
> > speakers being stressed and/or cabinets resonating. The ones in that
> > group who are sensitive to SPL use ... sealed cabs to pull down SPL while
> > givng the amp something to wrestle with.

> Hank, do you know some stuff about this that you would like to
> elaborate on? How do sealed cabinets pull down SPL? And how do they
> give the amp something to wrestle with? Are you talking about some
> complex air pressure speaker damping impedance issue I don't
> understand?

"Infinite baffle" or sealed cabinets are less efficient than ported,
open back or otherwise vented cabinets. So back in the AWHQ daze I used
Strat > Alembic F2B > McIntosh MC75 tuber > sealed marine plywood
version of a 2 x 12" Bassman cab. I could drive the amp at a higher
level without getting SPL I didn't want compared to using an open back
or ported version of the same style of cabinet, all of which we had
lying around the studio.

> Or do you just mean that the notes don't slip out the back
> door and into a nearby microphone?

Right, the infinte baffle thing keeps the notes looking for a home they
will never find in this lifetime. Sad, really.

--
ha

[S O'Neill]

"Free-form guitar" from Chicago's first album. Something like a Bogen
Challenger into another amp.


Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
>
>>Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
>>taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
>>amp. That wouldn't be cool.
>
>
> That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
> players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
> at the same time.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[S O'Neill]

"Free-form guitar" from Chicago's first album. Something like a Bogen
Challenger into another amp.


Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
>
>>Right, but when you say "in series" it sounds like you're talking about
>>taking the output of one amp and plugging it into the input of the 2nd
>>amp. That wouldn't be cool.
>
>
> That would be "in sequence" rather than "in series." But don't guitar
> players do that a lot? Makes the distortion louder and more distorted
> at the same time.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

LeBaron & Alrich > wrote:

> "Infinite baffle" or sealed cabinets are less efficient than ported,
> open back or otherwise vented cabinets. So back in the AWHQ daze I used
> Strat > Alembic F2B > McIntosh MC75 tuber > sealed marine plywood
> version of a 2 x 12" Bassman cab. I could drive the amp at a higher
> level without getting SPL I didn't want compared to using an open back
> or ported version of the same style of cabinet, all of which we had
> lying around the studio.
>
> > Or do you just mean that the notes don't slip out the back
> > door and into a nearby microphone?
>
> Right, the infinte baffle thing keeps the notes looking for a home they
> will never find in this lifetime. Sad, really.

Thanks for the explanation, Hank. But since the difference between a
sealed-back cabinet and an open-back cabinet is probably comparable to
the difference between a lot of amps on "4" and "6" didn't this
compromise your tone just as much as simply turning the amp down?
Unless the sealed-cab sound happens to be what you were after anyway.
If it's not, then I don't see this solution being too helpful. I
haven't really decided yet whether I prefer open or closed guitar
cabinets (or poorly-closed Bassman cabs), but I like my sealed Ampex
4x10 bass cabinet a hell of a lot better than my old ported 2x10
cabinet that was otherwise almost identical.


ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

LeBaron & Alrich > wrote:

> "Infinite baffle" or sealed cabinets are less efficient than ported,
> open back or otherwise vented cabinets. So back in the AWHQ daze I used
> Strat > Alembic F2B > McIntosh MC75 tuber > sealed marine plywood
> version of a 2 x 12" Bassman cab. I could drive the amp at a higher
> level without getting SPL I didn't want compared to using an open back
> or ported version of the same style of cabinet, all of which we had
> lying around the studio.
>
> > Or do you just mean that the notes don't slip out the back
> > door and into a nearby microphone?
>
> Right, the infinte baffle thing keeps the notes looking for a home they
> will never find in this lifetime. Sad, really.

Thanks for the explanation, Hank. But since the difference between a
sealed-back cabinet and an open-back cabinet is probably comparable to
the difference between a lot of amps on "4" and "6" didn't this
compromise your tone just as much as simply turning the amp down?
Unless the sealed-cab sound happens to be what you were after anyway.
If it's not, then I don't see this solution being too helpful. I
haven't really decided yet whether I prefer open or closed guitar
cabinets (or poorly-closed Bassman cabs), but I like my sealed Ampex
4x10 bass cabinet a hell of a lot better than my old ported 2x10
cabinet that was otherwise almost identical.


ulysses

[Peter Kaersaa]

In article >,
says...
> Peter Kaersaa wrote:
>
> > Eddie van halen.
>
> Oh, yeah, but that was just a little Pignose or Marshall solid-state
> practice amp. My dad used to do that too, now that I think about it.
> I can't imagine doing it with the full output of a real power amp
> though.
>
> ulysses
>

No a 100W marshall JCM into two 400w poweramps.


--
/ Peter Kaersaa

[Peter Kaersaa]

In article >,
says...
> Peter Kaersaa wrote:
>
> > Eddie van halen.
>
> Oh, yeah, but that was just a little Pignose or Marshall solid-state
> practice amp. My dad used to do that too, now that I think about it.
> I can't imagine doing it with the full output of a real power amp
> though.
>
> ulysses
>

No a 100W marshall JCM into two 400w poweramps.


--
/ Peter Kaersaa