Microphones for Classical Guitars

[guitar player]

Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
on a budget, but then again I can always rent.

thanks

[Stephen Boyke]

in article , guitar player at
wrote on 10/5/03 8:01 PM:

> Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
> do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
> on a budget, but then again I can always rent.
>
> thanks


A pair of mics will work better. There are many small diaphragm
condensers out there for $100 each or less.
--
Stephen T. Boyke

[Stephen Boyke]

in article , guitar player at
wrote on 10/5/03 8:01 PM:

> Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
> do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
> on a budget, but then again I can always rent.
>
> thanks


A pair of mics will work better. There are many small diaphragm
condensers out there for $100 each or less.
--
Stephen T. Boyke

[LeBaron & Alrich]

guitar player wrote:

> Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
> do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
> on a budget, but then again I can always rent.

There has been plenty of discussion here about this topic, and Google's
Advanced Group Search function would find it for you. Beyond that, it
takes mroe than just a mic to record, any mic is part of a system, an
SM57 is not an optimal choice for classical guitar, and a budget should
be specified in amounts of money. So, what else do you have to apply to
this task? A preamp for a mic? How much money can you spend? What is the
intended usage of the finished recroding? Any other information you can
provide to help folks here give specific and appropriate answers?

Google Advanced Groups Search:

<http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search>

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

guitar player wrote:

> Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
> do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
> on a budget, but then again I can always rent.

There has been plenty of discussion here about this topic, and Google's
Advanced Group Search function would find it for you. Beyond that, it
takes mroe than just a mic to record, any mic is part of a system, an
SM57 is not an optimal choice for classical guitar, and a budget should
be specified in amounts of money. So, what else do you have to apply to
this task? A preamp for a mic? How much money can you spend? What is the
intended usage of the finished recroding? Any other information you can
provide to help folks here give specific and appropriate answers?

Google Advanced Groups Search:

<http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search>

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, "guitar player"
> wrote:
>Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
>do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
>on a budget, but then again I can always rent.
>
>thanks

The question awas asked (the last time a few weeks ago). Answers included
ribbon mics, condenser mics and a dixie cup with a piece of string attached
to a phono stylus.

It all depends on how good you want to sound. It's a money/quality thing. An
SM57 will do the trick. There are more and less trickier mics.

Regards,

Ty Ford



**Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address.
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[EnJneer]

Hey! This acoustic miking question didn't start a C1000 argument! What's
going on?!?

Maybe I should recommend a C1000? ;)

--
J
Freelance Engineer Producer
(Delete "no.spam" from my e-mail address to reply direct)


"guitar player" > wrote in message
.. .
> Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a
SM57
> do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I
am
> on a budget, but then again I can always rent.
>
> thanks

[James Boyk]

Someone chided me for failing to offer my usual recommendation of ribbon mikes,
so I hereby do so. These are only good if you want to capture the sound
accurately, though.


James Boyk

[LeBaron & Alrich]

EnJneer wrote:

> Hey! This acoustic miking question didn't start a C1000 argument! What's
> going on?!?

> Maybe I should recommend a C1000? ;)

That'll be enough from you. <g>

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

EnJneer wrote:

> Hey! This acoustic miking question didn't start a C1000 argument! What's
> going on?!?

> Maybe I should recommend a C1000? ;)

That'll be enough from you. <g>

--
ha

[Audy]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
> Someone chided me for failing to offer my usual recommendation of ribbon mikes,
> so I hereby do so. These are only good if you want to capture the sound
> accurately, though.
>
>
> James Boyk

Love to hear which specific ones you recommend most for classical
guitars:
Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?

I'm also wondering if any of these mics would help me record a
particularly difficult percussion instrument, the Hawaiian Ipu, a
large, dried gourd with the very top cut off. It is played by grasping
the neck of the gourd and a combination of hitting it with the heel of
the hand (on the bottom of the gourd) and alternately slapping the
side with the palm of the hand and also striking it (not too hard) on
a padded floor.

Condenser mics pick up too much of the slap and not enough body, too
much detail and not enough wood. Most dynamics don't quite have the
balance to pick up both the highs, lows and for lack of a better term,
"body" or "wood" of the instrument.

Looking forward to the discussion for both instruments from those who
have more experience with ribbon mics.

Best regards.
Audy

I'm wondering if it's a similar situation to recording a classical
guitar player up close, where too much detail (high frequency)
actually detracts from the sound you hear naturally, acoustically,
with your ears.

[Audy]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
> Someone chided me for failing to offer my usual recommendation of ribbon mikes,
> so I hereby do so. These are only good if you want to capture the sound
> accurately, though.
>
>
> James Boyk

Love to hear which specific ones you recommend most for classical
guitars:
Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?

I'm also wondering if any of these mics would help me record a
particularly difficult percussion instrument, the Hawaiian Ipu, a
large, dried gourd with the very top cut off. It is played by grasping
the neck of the gourd and a combination of hitting it with the heel of
the hand (on the bottom of the gourd) and alternately slapping the
side with the palm of the hand and also striking it (not too hard) on
a padded floor.

Condenser mics pick up too much of the slap and not enough body, too
much detail and not enough wood. Most dynamics don't quite have the
balance to pick up both the highs, lows and for lack of a better term,
"body" or "wood" of the instrument.

Looking forward to the discussion for both instruments from those who
have more experience with ribbon mics.

Best regards.
Audy

I'm wondering if it's a similar situation to recording a classical
guitar player up close, where too much detail (high frequency)
actually detracts from the sound you hear naturally, acoustically,
with your ears.

[Audy]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
> Someone chided me for failing to offer my usual recommendation of ribbon mikes,
> so I hereby do so. These are only good if you want to capture the sound
> accurately, though.
>
>
> James Boyk

Love to hear which specific ones you recommend most for classical
guitars:
Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?

I'm also wondering if any of these mics would help me record a
particularly difficult percussion instrument, the Hawaiian Ipu, a
large, dried gourd with the very top cut off. It is played by grasping
the neck of the gourd and a combination of hitting it with the heel of
the hand (on the bottom of the gourd) and alternately slapping the
side with the palm of the hand and also striking it (not too hard) on
a padded floor.

Condenser mics pick up too much of the slap and not enough body, too
much detail and not enough wood. Most dynamics don't quite have the
balance to pick up both the highs, lows and for lack of a better term,
"body" or "wood" of the instrument.

Looking forward to the discussion for both instruments from those who
have more experience with ribbon mics.

Best regards.
Audy

I'm wondering if it's a similar situation to recording a classical
guitar player up close, where too much detail (high frequency)
actually detracts from the sound you hear naturally, acoustically,
with your ears.

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
>
>Love to hear which specific ones you recommend most for classical
>guitars:
>Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?

I don't know about Mr. Boyk, but I really love the Beyer M-160 and M-260
on classical guitar. You have to be very careful about placement if you
don't want it to be too boomy, but you can get a great sound out of them.

I also have occasionally liked a 77DX on some guitars, but it's definitely
a more colored sound. Gives you a lot of control, though.

>I'm also wondering if any of these mics would help me record a
>particularly difficult percussion instrument, the Hawaiian Ipu, a
>large, dried gourd with the very top cut off. It is played by grasping
>the neck of the gourd and a combination of hitting it with the heel of
>the hand (on the bottom of the gourd) and alternately slapping the
>side with the palm of the hand and also striking it (not too hard) on
>a padded floor.
>
>Condenser mics pick up too much of the slap and not enough body, too
>much detail and not enough wood. Most dynamics don't quite have the
>balance to pick up both the highs, lows and for lack of a better term,
>"body" or "wood" of the instrument.

The M160 would be a good thing to try. I'd also suggest trying the
EV RE-55 if you can find one. It's like a 635A, but with low end.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
>
>Love to hear which specific ones you recommend most for classical
>guitars:
>Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?

I don't know about Mr. Boyk, but I really love the Beyer M-160 and M-260
on classical guitar. You have to be very careful about placement if you
don't want it to be too boomy, but you can get a great sound out of them.

I also have occasionally liked a 77DX on some guitars, but it's definitely
a more colored sound. Gives you a lot of control, though.

>I'm also wondering if any of these mics would help me record a
>particularly difficult percussion instrument, the Hawaiian Ipu, a
>large, dried gourd with the very top cut off. It is played by grasping
>the neck of the gourd and a combination of hitting it with the heel of
>the hand (on the bottom of the gourd) and alternately slapping the
>side with the palm of the hand and also striking it (not too hard) on
>a padded floor.
>
>Condenser mics pick up too much of the slap and not enough body, too
>much detail and not enough wood. Most dynamics don't quite have the
>balance to pick up both the highs, lows and for lack of a better term,
>"body" or "wood" of the instrument.

The M160 would be a good thing to try. I'd also suggest trying the
EV RE-55 if you can find one. It's like a 635A, but with low end.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Audy wrote:

> Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?

I am fond of the Beyer M160's for classical guitar and often, mnay other
types of plucked, strummed, picked and bowed instruments.

> I'm also wondering if any of these mics would help me record a
> particularly difficult percussion instrument, the Hawaiian Ipu, a
> large, dried gourd with the very top cut off. It is played by grasping
> the neck of the gourd and a combination of hitting it with the heel of
> the hand (on the bottom of the gourd) and alternately slapping the
> side with the palm of the hand and also striking it (not too hard) on
> a padded floor.

> Condenser mics pick up too much of the slap and not enough body, too
> much detail and not enough wood. Most dynamics don't quite have the
> balance to pick up both the highs, lows and for lack of a better term,
> "body" or "wood" of the instrument.

> Looking forward to the discussion for both instruments from those who
> have more experience with ribbon mics.

Have you tried Sennheiser 441's? I've recently been running a pair into
a Millennia pre for an acoustic duo (guitar and cello) and there is wood
aplenty. Will soon compare using modified (Jim Williams) AKG C460's.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Audy wrote:

> Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?

I am fond of the Beyer M160's for classical guitar and often, mnay other
types of plucked, strummed, picked and bowed instruments.

> I'm also wondering if any of these mics would help me record a
> particularly difficult percussion instrument, the Hawaiian Ipu, a
> large, dried gourd with the very top cut off. It is played by grasping
> the neck of the gourd and a combination of hitting it with the heel of
> the hand (on the bottom of the gourd) and alternately slapping the
> side with the palm of the hand and also striking it (not too hard) on
> a padded floor.

> Condenser mics pick up too much of the slap and not enough body, too
> much detail and not enough wood. Most dynamics don't quite have the
> balance to pick up both the highs, lows and for lack of a better term,
> "body" or "wood" of the instrument.

> Looking forward to the discussion for both instruments from those who
> have more experience with ribbon mics.

Have you tried Sennheiser 441's? I've recently been running a pair into
a Millennia pre for an acoustic duo (guitar and cello) and there is wood
aplenty. Will soon compare using modified (Jim Williams) AKG C460's.

--
ha

[M. Im]

The recording venue will influence your choices as well. Do you plan
to record in a concert space with reverberation or in a studio
setting... or in your bedroom? Sometimes the choice of brand or type
of microphone is easier if the sound you are looking for actually
exists in the space you are recording. If you are trying to get an
incredible guitar sound in your bedroom, then I would hope that the
guitar does indeed sound incredible in that venue.

In short, devote at least as much time in your search to find (hear)
the sound you want in an appropriate recording setting as you would
finding the gear to record it with.

Mike

"guitar player" > wrote in message >...
> Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
> do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
> on a budget, but then again I can always rent.
>
> thanks

[M. Im]

The recording venue will influence your choices as well. Do you plan
to record in a concert space with reverberation or in a studio
setting... or in your bedroom? Sometimes the choice of brand or type
of microphone is easier if the sound you are looking for actually
exists in the space you are recording. If you are trying to get an
incredible guitar sound in your bedroom, then I would hope that the
guitar does indeed sound incredible in that venue.

In short, devote at least as much time in your search to find (hear)
the sound you want in an appropriate recording setting as you would
finding the gear to record it with.

Mike

"guitar player" > wrote in message >...
> Any opinions on microphone choices to record classical guitar. Would a SM57
> do the trick or should I invest in a condenser microphone. Keep in mind I am
> on a budget, but then again I can always rent.
>
> thanks

[P Stamler]

I think Beyer ribbon microphones might be an excellent thing to try for your
Hawaiian percussion instrument. Go for the M160 or M260 -- not the M500, which
has too hot a high end, and will give you some of the same problems as most
condensers.

A 441 is also a good possibility, and don't forget the Beyer M88. I've also
sometimes had excellent results with similar instruments using an Electro-Voice
RE-15, but they vary a lot depending on age.

Peace,
Paul

[P Stamler]

I think Beyer ribbon microphones might be an excellent thing to try for your
Hawaiian percussion instrument. Go for the M160 or M260 -- not the M500, which
has too hot a high end, and will give you some of the same problems as most
condensers.

A 441 is also a good possibility, and don't forget the Beyer M88. I've also
sometimes had excellent results with similar instruments using an Electro-Voice
RE-15, but they vary a lot depending on age.

Peace,
Paul

[Audy]

(LeBaron & Alrich) wrote in message >...
>
> I am fond of the Beyer M160's for classical guitar and often, mnay other
> types of plucked, strummed, picked and bowed instruments.
>
> Have you tried Sennheiser 441's? I've recently been running a pair into
> a Millennia pre for an acoustic duo (guitar and cello) and there is wood
> aplenty. Will soon compare using modified (Jim Williams) AKG C460's.

Thanks! I'll give these a try. Not many Beyer M160s around here but sounds like
it would be worth a try. Will also try the 441.

Please let us know hoiw the Audio Upgrades AKG 460s work!

Best regards,
Audy

[Audy]

(LeBaron & Alrich) wrote in message >...
>
> I am fond of the Beyer M160's for classical guitar and often, mnay other
> types of plucked, strummed, picked and bowed instruments.
>
> Have you tried Sennheiser 441's? I've recently been running a pair into
> a Millennia pre for an acoustic duo (guitar and cello) and there is wood
> aplenty. Will soon compare using modified (Jim Williams) AKG C460's.

Thanks! I'll give these a try. Not many Beyer M160s around here but sounds like
it would be worth a try. Will also try the 441.

Please let us know hoiw the Audio Upgrades AKG 460s work!

Best regards,
Audy

[Audy]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...

> I don't know about Mr. Boyk, but I really love the Beyer M-160 and M-260
> on classical guitar. You have to be very careful about placement if you
> don't want it to be too boomy, but you can get a great sound out of them.
>
> I also have occasionally liked a 77DX on some guitars, but it's definitely
> a more colored sound. Gives you a lot of control, though.
>
> The M160 would be a good thing to try. I'd also suggest trying the
> EV RE-55 if you can find one. It's like a 635A, but with low end.
> --scott

Scott:

Sounds like a Beyer M-160 would be good to have in general. Haven't
seen an RE-55 in ages but will look around.

Every summer I record a world class classical guitarist, Carlos
Barbosa-Lima. We've had long discussions and listening sessions.We've
both found that the length, cut and finish (buffed or sanded) of the
fingernails also has a profound effect on classical guitar tone. Not
to sound like a bunch of ladies at the manicurist but it really does!
I've had to refile/buff my finger nails when I get too much of the
"gritty edge" part of the tone. Other times, when the finger nails
are worn, I find myself reaching for a mic with more high end edge to
compensate.

Sounds like I need to add some ribbon mics to the mic locker starting
with the M-160 though. Thanks!

Best regards,
Audy

[Audy]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...

> I don't know about Mr. Boyk, but I really love the Beyer M-160 and M-260
> on classical guitar. You have to be very careful about placement if you
> don't want it to be too boomy, but you can get a great sound out of them.
>
> I also have occasionally liked a 77DX on some guitars, but it's definitely
> a more colored sound. Gives you a lot of control, though.
>
> The M160 would be a good thing to try. I'd also suggest trying the
> EV RE-55 if you can find one. It's like a 635A, but with low end.
> --scott

Scott:

Sounds like a Beyer M-160 would be good to have in general. Haven't
seen an RE-55 in ages but will look around.

Every summer I record a world class classical guitarist, Carlos
Barbosa-Lima. We've had long discussions and listening sessions.We've
both found that the length, cut and finish (buffed or sanded) of the
fingernails also has a profound effect on classical guitar tone. Not
to sound like a bunch of ladies at the manicurist but it really does!
I've had to refile/buff my finger nails when I get too much of the
"gritty edge" part of the tone. Other times, when the finger nails
are worn, I find myself reaching for a mic with more high end edge to
compensate.

Sounds like I need to add some ribbon mics to the mic locker starting
with the M-160 though. Thanks!

Best regards,
Audy

[James Boyk]

Audy wrote: > Love to hear which specific ones you recommend most
for classical guitars: Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?


The only ribbons I know well are B&O 200 (long discontinued but if you
find one with ribbons in good shape grab it) and Coles 4038. Sheffield Lab used
the Coles (with my mike preamp) to record the album "Passions," of music for two
classical guitars; you might want to listen to it. I really don't know what
either of these mikes *can't* do. I listen to either happily, as I don't to
condensers (maybe I just haven't heard the right condenser). I have a preference
for the Coles as having more of the "walk into it" quality.

There's a Beyer ball-on-stick two-capsule figure 8 which I auditioned long ago
and intensely disliked. At that time, it cost vy approx. $400 for one of them. I
thought it sounded like a ribbon designed by someone who'd grown up normalized
to the sound of typical condensers.

There's also the Beyer M260, which I used to like vy much---for an inexpensive
mike not in the league of the two mentioned above---and recommended in my book;
but when I heard it more recently, definitely did Not like it; it seemed muddied
and muffled. I don't know if it changed or I changed.

In short, I have nothing very useful to say. Sorry!


James Boyk

[James Boyk]

Audy wrote: > Love to hear which specific ones you recommend most
for classical guitars: Coles, Royer, AEA, Beyer? Which models?


The only ribbons I know well are B&O 200 (long discontinued but if you
find one with ribbons in good shape grab it) and Coles 4038. Sheffield Lab used
the Coles (with my mike preamp) to record the album "Passions," of music for two
classical guitars; you might want to listen to it. I really don't know what
either of these mikes *can't* do. I listen to either happily, as I don't to
condensers (maybe I just haven't heard the right condenser). I have a preference
for the Coles as having more of the "walk into it" quality.

There's a Beyer ball-on-stick two-capsule figure 8 which I auditioned long ago
and intensely disliked. At that time, it cost vy approx. $400 for one of them. I
thought it sounded like a ribbon designed by someone who'd grown up normalized
to the sound of typical condensers.

There's also the Beyer M260, which I used to like vy much---for an inexpensive
mike not in the league of the two mentioned above---and recommended in my book;
but when I heard it more recently, definitely did Not like it; it seemed muddied
and muffled. I don't know if it changed or I changed.

In short, I have nothing very useful to say. Sorry!


James Boyk

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:14:13 -0700, James Boyk >
wrote:

>(with my mike preamp)

Have you described this in print or on line? All I remember is a
mention of tubes and sans input transformers. Topology, etc?

Thanks,

Chris Hornbeck
new email address

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:14:13 -0700, James Boyk >
wrote:

>(with my mike preamp)

Have you described this in print or on line? All I remember is a
mention of tubes and sans input transformers. Topology, etc?

Thanks,

Chris Hornbeck
new email address

[O_Zean]

(P Stamler) wrote in message >...
> I think Beyer ribbon microphones might be an excellent thing to try for your
> Hawaiian percussion instrument. Go for the M160 or M260 -- not the M500, which
> has too hot a high end, and will give you some of the same problems as most
> condensers.
>
> A 441 is also a good possibility, and don't forget the Beyer M88. I've also
> sometimes had excellent results with similar instruments using an Electro-Voice
> RE-15, but they vary a lot depending on age.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

by the mxm 900, condensor. Great for class guitar. Just amazing.

[O_Zean]

(P Stamler) wrote in message >...
> I think Beyer ribbon microphones might be an excellent thing to try for your
> Hawaiian percussion instrument. Go for the M160 or M260 -- not the M500, which
> has too hot a high end, and will give you some of the same problems as most
> condensers.
>
> A 441 is also a good possibility, and don't forget the Beyer M88. I've also
> sometimes had excellent results with similar instruments using an Electro-Voice
> RE-15, but they vary a lot depending on age.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

by the mxm 900, condensor. Great for class guitar. Just amazing.

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
>Sounds like a Beyer M-160 would be good to have in general. Haven't
>seen an RE-55 in ages but will look around.

Absolutely. Same goes for the Sennheiser 441 that someone else recommended.
All good microphones to have around in the kit.

The RE-55 is a very underrated mike. Shure also made some similar dynamic
omnis for broadcast applications, and they are also all discontinued and just
as difficult to find used. You can still get the EV 635A, which is rather
like an RE-55 without any low end. It's handy for a lot of things, but
definitely not classical guitar.

>Every summer I record a world class classical guitarist, Carlos
>Barbosa-Lima. We've had long discussions and listening sessions.We've
>both found that the length, cut and finish (buffed or sanded) of the
>fingernails also has a profound effect on classical guitar tone. Not
>to sound like a bunch of ladies at the manicurist but it really does!
>I've had to refile/buff my finger nails when I get too much of the
>"gritty edge" part of the tone. Other times, when the finger nails
>are worn, I find myself reaching for a mic with more high end edge to
>compensate.

I can certainly believe that. But you know, that's why they invented the
harpsichord, right?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
>Sounds like a Beyer M-160 would be good to have in general. Haven't
>seen an RE-55 in ages but will look around.

Absolutely. Same goes for the Sennheiser 441 that someone else recommended.
All good microphones to have around in the kit.

The RE-55 is a very underrated mike. Shure also made some similar dynamic
omnis for broadcast applications, and they are also all discontinued and just
as difficult to find used. You can still get the EV 635A, which is rather
like an RE-55 without any low end. It's handy for a lot of things, but
definitely not classical guitar.

>Every summer I record a world class classical guitarist, Carlos
>Barbosa-Lima. We've had long discussions and listening sessions.We've
>both found that the length, cut and finish (buffed or sanded) of the
>fingernails also has a profound effect on classical guitar tone. Not
>to sound like a bunch of ladies at the manicurist but it really does!
>I've had to refile/buff my finger nails when I get too much of the
>"gritty edge" part of the tone. Other times, when the finger nails
>are worn, I find myself reaching for a mic with more high end edge to
>compensate.

I can certainly believe that. But you know, that's why they invented the
harpsichord, right?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Audy]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
>
> In short, I have nothing very useful to say. Sorry!
>
>
> James Boyk

On the contrary, I'm finding all of these recommendations and comments
very fascinating. A fellow musician and studio owner with excellent
equipment told me he used a Coles 4038 to record a nylon and steel
guitar and loved it. This guy owns some primo equipment so it's saying
a lot.

I'd love to hear from those who have compared the Coles 4038, AEA and
Royers. What I'm trying to find out is which mics will give you that
(for lack of a better term) "silky" or "smooth" sound on classical and
steel string guitars for single note solos. I haven't heard that sound
too often but it's just the perfect balance without too much high
frequency detail.

For most steel string stuff, I love my pair of Neumann KM54s but I'm
trying to get a different type of sound.

BTW, I wish I could send you all a Hawaiian Ipu (hollow gourd with the
top cut off). This thing can drive you crazy getting the sound your
hear in the room recorded. I'm hoping the ribbons will work on this
instrument.

Thanks and best regards,
Audy

[Audy]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
>
> In short, I have nothing very useful to say. Sorry!
>
>
> James Boyk

On the contrary, I'm finding all of these recommendations and comments
very fascinating. A fellow musician and studio owner with excellent
equipment told me he used a Coles 4038 to record a nylon and steel
guitar and loved it. This guy owns some primo equipment so it's saying
a lot.

I'd love to hear from those who have compared the Coles 4038, AEA and
Royers. What I'm trying to find out is which mics will give you that
(for lack of a better term) "silky" or "smooth" sound on classical and
steel string guitars for single note solos. I haven't heard that sound
too often but it's just the perfect balance without too much high
frequency detail.

For most steel string stuff, I love my pair of Neumann KM54s but I'm
trying to get a different type of sound.

BTW, I wish I could send you all a Hawaiian Ipu (hollow gourd with the
top cut off). This thing can drive you crazy getting the sound your
hear in the room recorded. I'm hoping the ribbons will work on this
instrument.

Thanks and best regards,
Audy

[Audy]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
> Audy > wrote:
> >Sounds like a Beyer M-160 would be good to have in general. Haven't
> >seen an RE-55 in ages but will look around.
>
> Absolutely. Same goes for the Sennheiser 441 that someone else recommended.
> All good microphones to have around in the kit.
>
> The RE-55 is a very underrated mike. Shure also made some similar dynamic
> omnis for broadcast applications, and they are also all discontinued and just
> as difficult to find used. You can still get the EV 635A, which is rather
> like an RE-55 without any low end. It's handy for a lot of things, but
> definitely not classical guitar.
>
> >Every summer I record a world class classical guitarist, Carlos
> >Barbosa-Lima. We've had long discussions and listening sessions.We've
> >both found that the length, cut and finish (buffed or sanded) of the
> >fingernails also has a profound effect on classical guitar tone. Not
> >to sound like a bunch of ladies at the manicurist but it really does!
> >I've had to refile/buff my finger nails when I get too much of the
> >"gritty edge" part of the tone. Other times, when the finger nails
> >are worn, I find myself reaching for a mic with more high end edge to
> >compensate.
>
> I can certainly believe that. But you know, that's why they invented the
> harpsichord, right?
> --scott

Scott:

I wish EV, Sony, Neumann etc. wouldn't discontinue so many great mics.
I'd love to have a couple of Sony C-55P, C-38 and other great mics.

George Benson told me that his vocal on "This Masquerade" was recorded
as a "scratch vocal" during tracking with "a cheap $80 EV mic" because
they weren't sure if they were even going to use that song on the
album. When they needed another song, they were in a rush so didn't
have time to replace it and ended up using the "scratch vocal"
recorded with an inexpensive dynamic mic. Of course, George has an
incredible voice (among other talents) but if you get a chance, take a
listen. Al Schmitt really worked some magic on it but I'd love to have
one of those "cheap EV mics" which is probably discontinued.

Best regards and thanks,
Audy

[Audy]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
> Audy > wrote:
> >Sounds like a Beyer M-160 would be good to have in general. Haven't
> >seen an RE-55 in ages but will look around.
>
> Absolutely. Same goes for the Sennheiser 441 that someone else recommended.
> All good microphones to have around in the kit.
>
> The RE-55 is a very underrated mike. Shure also made some similar dynamic
> omnis for broadcast applications, and they are also all discontinued and just
> as difficult to find used. You can still get the EV 635A, which is rather
> like an RE-55 without any low end. It's handy for a lot of things, but
> definitely not classical guitar.
>
> >Every summer I record a world class classical guitarist, Carlos
> >Barbosa-Lima. We've had long discussions and listening sessions.We've
> >both found that the length, cut and finish (buffed or sanded) of the
> >fingernails also has a profound effect on classical guitar tone. Not
> >to sound like a bunch of ladies at the manicurist but it really does!
> >I've had to refile/buff my finger nails when I get too much of the
> >"gritty edge" part of the tone. Other times, when the finger nails
> >are worn, I find myself reaching for a mic with more high end edge to
> >compensate.
>
> I can certainly believe that. But you know, that's why they invented the
> harpsichord, right?
> --scott

Scott:

I wish EV, Sony, Neumann etc. wouldn't discontinue so many great mics.
I'd love to have a couple of Sony C-55P, C-38 and other great mics.

George Benson told me that his vocal on "This Masquerade" was recorded
as a "scratch vocal" during tracking with "a cheap $80 EV mic" because
they weren't sure if they were even going to use that song on the
album. When they needed another song, they were in a rush so didn't
have time to replace it and ended up using the "scratch vocal"
recorded with an inexpensive dynamic mic. Of course, George has an
incredible voice (among other talents) but if you get a chance, take a
listen. Al Schmitt really worked some magic on it but I'd love to have
one of those "cheap EV mics" which is probably discontinued.

Best regards and thanks,
Audy

[James Boyk]

I have a feeling that what's bothering you isn't "too much high-frequency
detail" in certain mikes but rather their *lack* of "core" or "body." This, to
me, is a problem with some condensers. In other words, the high-frequency detail
isn't bad in itself, but it isn't put in context by such mikes.


James Boyk

[James Boyk]

I have a feeling that what's bothering you isn't "too much high-frequency
detail" in certain mikes but rather their *lack* of "core" or "body." This, to
me, is a problem with some condensers. In other words, the high-frequency detail
isn't bad in itself, but it isn't put in context by such mikes.


James Boyk

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
>I wish EV, Sony, Neumann etc. wouldn't discontinue so many great mics.
>I'd love to have a couple of Sony C-55P, C-38 and other great mics.

In the case of the broadcast omnis, they all basically got discontinued
because the need for them went away. They were all designed for on-camera TV
use, and these days everybody wants to hide the microphone and use lavaliers,
so most of the omnis (except the 635A) went away.

The SM-80 is another wonderful Shure omni that disappeared because Shure didn't
know who would want it and they didn't know how to market it. The guys at
Shure were telling me they were selling so many thousands of SM-81s per year,
and nine SM-80s, and they couldn't afford to keep it in the catalogue selling
only nine a year.

>George Benson told me that his vocal on "This Masquerade" was recorded
>as a "scratch vocal" during tracking with "a cheap $80 EV mic" because
>they weren't sure if they were even going to use that song on the
>album. When they needed another song, they were in a rush so didn't
>have time to replace it and ended up using the "scratch vocal"
>recorded with an inexpensive dynamic mic. Of course, George has an
>incredible voice (among other talents) but if you get a chance, take a
>listen. Al Schmitt really worked some magic on it but I'd love to have
>one of those "cheap EV mics" which is probably discontinued.

Yup. Masquerade was done with an EV 664, as I recall. It's a pretty decent
mike, certainly better-than-SM57 quality, and I think I submitted something
to one of the RAP CD sets which used it on live vocals. The problem with
them is that the ham radio operators have really taken to them for
communications mikes, which has driven the used price way up in a lot of
places. Used to be a $25 mike at hamfests, now it's more like $150, or
more if it has the desk stand.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
>I wish EV, Sony, Neumann etc. wouldn't discontinue so many great mics.
>I'd love to have a couple of Sony C-55P, C-38 and other great mics.

In the case of the broadcast omnis, they all basically got discontinued
because the need for them went away. They were all designed for on-camera TV
use, and these days everybody wants to hide the microphone and use lavaliers,
so most of the omnis (except the 635A) went away.

The SM-80 is another wonderful Shure omni that disappeared because Shure didn't
know who would want it and they didn't know how to market it. The guys at
Shure were telling me they were selling so many thousands of SM-81s per year,
and nine SM-80s, and they couldn't afford to keep it in the catalogue selling
only nine a year.

>George Benson told me that his vocal on "This Masquerade" was recorded
>as a "scratch vocal" during tracking with "a cheap $80 EV mic" because
>they weren't sure if they were even going to use that song on the
>album. When they needed another song, they were in a rush so didn't
>have time to replace it and ended up using the "scratch vocal"
>recorded with an inexpensive dynamic mic. Of course, George has an
>incredible voice (among other talents) but if you get a chance, take a
>listen. Al Schmitt really worked some magic on it but I'd love to have
>one of those "cheap EV mics" which is probably discontinued.

Yup. Masquerade was done with an EV 664, as I recall. It's a pretty decent
mike, certainly better-than-SM57 quality, and I think I submitted something
to one of the RAP CD sets which used it on live vocals. The problem with
them is that the ham radio operators have really taken to them for
communications mikes, which has driven the used price way up in a lot of
places. Used to be a $25 mike at hamfests, now it's more like $150, or
more if it has the desk stand.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Audy]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...

> Yup. Masquerade was done with an EV 664, as I recall. It's a pretty decent
> mike, certainly better-than-SM57 quality, and I think I submitted something
> to one of the RAP CD sets which used it on live vocals. The problem with
> them is that the ham radio operators have really taken to them for
> communications mikes, which has driven the used price way up in a lot of
> places. Used to be a $25 mike at hamfests, now it's more like $150, or
> more if it has the desk stand.
> --scott

Maybe I'd better renew my friendship with the ham radio guys I used to
know! No telling what they have lying around. When I listen to ham
radio communications, it sounds so garbled I never thought the mic
mattered that much! Are these guys turning "hi-fi" on us? Ha!

Best regards,
Audy

[Audy]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...

> Yup. Masquerade was done with an EV 664, as I recall. It's a pretty decent
> mike, certainly better-than-SM57 quality, and I think I submitted something
> to one of the RAP CD sets which used it on live vocals. The problem with
> them is that the ham radio operators have really taken to them for
> communications mikes, which has driven the used price way up in a lot of
> places. Used to be a $25 mike at hamfests, now it's more like $150, or
> more if it has the desk stand.
> --scott

Maybe I'd better renew my friendship with the ham radio guys I used to
know! No telling what they have lying around. When I listen to ham
radio communications, it sounds so garbled I never thought the mic
mattered that much! Are these guys turning "hi-fi" on us? Ha!

Best regards,
Audy

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
>
>> Yup. Masquerade was done with an EV 664, as I recall. It's a pretty decent
>> mike, certainly better-than-SM57 quality, and I think I submitted something
>> to one of the RAP CD sets which used it on live vocals. The problem with
>> them is that the ham radio operators have really taken to them for
>> communications mikes, which has driven the used price way up in a lot of
>> places. Used to be a $25 mike at hamfests, now it's more like $150, or
>> more if it has the desk stand.
>
>Maybe I'd better renew my friendship with the ham radio guys I used to
>know! No telling what they have lying around. When I listen to ham
>radio communications, it sounds so garbled I never thought the mic
>mattered that much! Are these guys turning "hi-fi" on us? Ha!

Depends. There are a bunch of folks that are big into that kind of
thing, running old AM broadcast transmitters on 160M, or hanging out
on the 40M AM net with old Viking transmitters with the voice filters
chopped out for wider bandwidth. It takes all kinds.
--scott

NO KIDS, NO LIDS, NO SPACE CADETS.
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Audy > wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
>
>> Yup. Masquerade was done with an EV 664, as I recall. It's a pretty decent
>> mike, certainly better-than-SM57 quality, and I think I submitted something
>> to one of the RAP CD sets which used it on live vocals. The problem with
>> them is that the ham radio operators have really taken to them for
>> communications mikes, which has driven the used price way up in a lot of
>> places. Used to be a $25 mike at hamfests, now it's more like $150, or
>> more if it has the desk stand.
>
>Maybe I'd better renew my friendship with the ham radio guys I used to
>know! No telling what they have lying around. When I listen to ham
>radio communications, it sounds so garbled I never thought the mic
>mattered that much! Are these guys turning "hi-fi" on us? Ha!

Depends. There are a bunch of folks that are big into that kind of
thing, running old AM broadcast transmitters on 160M, or hanging out
on the 40M AM net with old Viking transmitters with the voice filters
chopped out for wider bandwidth. It takes all kinds.
--scott

NO KIDS, NO LIDS, NO SPACE CADETS.
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Audy]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
> I have a feeling that what's bothering you isn't "too much high-frequency
> detail" in certain mikes but rather their *lack* of "core" or "body." This, to
> me, is a problem with some condensers. In other words, the high-frequency detail
> isn't bad in itself, but it isn't put in context by such mikes.
>
>
> James Boyk

James:

That's a good description, the tonal balance isn't right. The body and
mid to upper bass is missing but the low bass and high frequencies are
well represented.

Once I get my hands on a ribbon mic, 441 or something suitable, my
plan is to try micing it close (maybe 2feet or so) with the ribbon
dynamic, then using a condenser mounted high and distant to capture
more of the room.

Audy

[James Boyk]

Audy wrote:
> That's a good description, the tonal balance isn't right. The body and
> mid to upper bass is missing but the low bass and high frequencies are
> well represented.

It's not really a matter of tonal balance, however, but of integrity of the signal.


> ...my plan is to try micing it close (maybe 2feet or so) with the ribbon
> dynamic, then using a condenser mounted high and distant to capture
> more of the room.

Why not try miking at a more reasonable (i.e., farther) distance, so as to
capture both the guitar and the room. If the room is good, it's a shame to screw
up the picture. Let a single *coincident* stereo pair do the job for you.

By the way, ribbons are indeed dynamic-type mikes, but I've never heard them
called anything but just "ribbons."


James Boyk

[Audy]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
> Audy wrote:
> > That's a good description, the tonal balance isn't right. The body and
> > mid to upper bass is missing but the low bass and high frequencies are
> > well represented.
>
> It's not really a matter of tonal balance, however, but of integrity of the signal.
>
I believe I understand and concur with what you're saying but am
expressing it in a different way.Perhaps the sensitivity to different
frequencies accounts for this? Whatever the case, I'm still searching
for the right mic or combination to capture this instrument as I hear
it. Many of us have tried but I'm still not satisfied with what I hear
when recorded.

Part of the reason the Ipu is so hard to record is that typically, the
dried gourd is played by hitting the bottom with the heel of the hand
or striking it with a downward motion on a padded floor (both of which
produce mostly low frequencies) on the first beat and then slapped
with with the fingers or open hand on subsequent beats (which produce
predominantly mid and high frequencies) on alternate beats. It's a
tough combination to balance.

> > ...my plan is to try micing it close (maybe 2feet or so) with the ribbon
> > dynamic, then using a condenser mounted high and distant to capture
> > more of the room.
>
> Why not try miking at a more reasonable (i.e., farther) distance, so as to
> capture both the guitar and the room. If the room is good, it's a shame to screw
> up the picture. Let a single *coincident* stereo pair do the job for you.
>
> By the way, ribbons are indeed dynamic-type mikes, but I've never heard them
> called anything but just "ribbons."
>
>
> James Boyk

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the Ipu (not guitar) with
the close/far mic set-up. Of course, as you say, ribbons are a type of
dynamic mic. I was trying to differentiate between two different types
of dynamics.

O.k., you and all our fellow forum contributors are invited to Hawaii
for the Ipu recording shoot out...and you can now write-off the trip
as business/professional development travel.

BTW, where can I demo one of your pre-amps?

Best regards,
Audy