Live Sound Vs Studio Sound

[FrankDebro1]

Got a few questions for guys who have done live and studio stuff: In the
studio, I mix a heavy rock song to make each element of the mix have its own
area. I roll OFF the lows of the heavy guitars and use the bass to give them
their lows. I hear this mix in a LOT of heavy rock tunes and it works great
because the low end becomes much TIGHTER then it does if you try to add lows to
the guitars. Anyway, my question is this:

I played a live show last night. The front of house guy was telling me that he
adds lows to the guitars to get them growling. Is this common for live sound
to actually add textures to the mix elements? Or should I have stepped in and
asked him to Hi Pass the guitars which creates the usual tight sound I hear in
my studio? Or is the live situation just completely different? Here is a few
more questions:
Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
midrange from the guitars?

In top venue national act productions, do the sound guys use more recording
studio techniques, say, compressing the hell out of the vocal, putting a
compressor on the whole main mix.. etc?? Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
rack? I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound which people are
raving about... Thanks for all your comments.
Frank

[Scott Dorsey]

FrankDebro1 > wrote:
>
>I played a live show last night. The front of house guy was telling me that he
>adds lows to the guitars to get them growling. Is this common for live sound
>to actually add textures to the mix elements? Or should I have stepped in and
>asked him to Hi Pass the guitars which creates the usual tight sound I hear in
>my studio? Or is the live situation just completely different? Here is a few
>more questions:
>Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
>midrange from the guitars?

The whole thing about PA work is that you are fighting the room and you are
fighting what is usually a pretty dreadful speaker system. Your goal as
engineer is to get as close to the sound you want under those conditions.

Because the guitars might disappear under those conditions, you might have
to add low end to them in order to get them to sound decent at all. Sounds
you can get in the studio are sometimes totally impossible to get in live
situations.

If you were at the FOH position and could have heard things, you might have
been able to point out "hey, I want it to sound more like the album, so cut
the low end on those guitars." But when you're up on stage, you can't get
any sense at all of what it sounds like out in the hall because you're playing
under a speaker system specifically designed not to spill sound onto stage.

>In top venue national act productions, do the sound guys use more recording
>studio techniques, say, compressing the hell out of the vocal, putting a
>compressor on the whole main mix.. etc?? Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
>rack? I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound which people are
>raving about... Thanks for all your comments.

Sometimes, but even under the best of circumstances they are fighting leakage
issues and room issues that you just don't have in the studio. And even
aside from that, the stuff that they have to do to PA speakers to get pattern
control tends to have ugly side effects. Next time you're at a live gig, ask
the PA guy to play your album through the system and listen to what it sounds
like, compared with the studio monitors. It's an eye-opener right there.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

FrankDebro1 > wrote:
>
>I played a live show last night. The front of house guy was telling me that he
>adds lows to the guitars to get them growling. Is this common for live sound
>to actually add textures to the mix elements? Or should I have stepped in and
>asked him to Hi Pass the guitars which creates the usual tight sound I hear in
>my studio? Or is the live situation just completely different? Here is a few
>more questions:
>Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
>midrange from the guitars?

The whole thing about PA work is that you are fighting the room and you are
fighting what is usually a pretty dreadful speaker system. Your goal as
engineer is to get as close to the sound you want under those conditions.

Because the guitars might disappear under those conditions, you might have
to add low end to them in order to get them to sound decent at all. Sounds
you can get in the studio are sometimes totally impossible to get in live
situations.

If you were at the FOH position and could have heard things, you might have
been able to point out "hey, I want it to sound more like the album, so cut
the low end on those guitars." But when you're up on stage, you can't get
any sense at all of what it sounds like out in the hall because you're playing
under a speaker system specifically designed not to spill sound onto stage.

>In top venue national act productions, do the sound guys use more recording
>studio techniques, say, compressing the hell out of the vocal, putting a
>compressor on the whole main mix.. etc?? Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
>rack? I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound which people are
>raving about... Thanks for all your comments.

Sometimes, but even under the best of circumstances they are fighting leakage
issues and room issues that you just don't have in the studio. And even
aside from that, the stuff that they have to do to PA speakers to get pattern
control tends to have ugly side effects. Next time you're at a live gig, ask
the PA guy to play your album through the system and listen to what it sounds
like, compared with the studio monitors. It's an eye-opener right there.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nick J.]

FrankDebro1 wrote:

> Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
> midrange from the guitars?

It's usually because the vocalist is too useless to sing loudly enough.
I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
when just they were put through the PA.

But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.

--
Now playing: Chicago - Beginnings [160kbps ]

[Nick J.]

FrankDebro1 wrote:

> Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
> midrange from the guitars?

It's usually because the vocalist is too useless to sing loudly enough.
I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
when just they were put through the PA.

But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.

--
Now playing: Chicago - Beginnings [160kbps ]

[Nick J.]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The whole thing about PA work is that you are fighting the room and
you are
> fighting what is usually a pretty dreadful speaker system.

What did you expect? Nexo is the "in thing", apparently.

--
Now playing:

[Nick J.]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The whole thing about PA work is that you are fighting the room and
you are
> fighting what is usually a pretty dreadful speaker system.

What did you expect? Nexo is the "in thing", apparently.

--
Now playing:

[Monte P McGuire]

In article >,
FrankDebro1 > wrote:
>Got a few questions for guys who have done live and studio stuff: In the
>studio, I mix a heavy rock song to make each element of the mix have its own
>area. I roll OFF the lows of the heavy guitars and use the bass to give them
>their lows. I hear this mix in a LOT of heavy rock tunes and it works great
>because the low end becomes much TIGHTER then it does if you try to add lows to
>the guitars. Anyway, my question is this:
>
>I played a live show last night. The front of house guy was telling me that he
>adds lows to the guitars to get them growling. Is this common for live sound
>to actually add textures to the mix elements? Or should I have stepped in and
>asked him to Hi Pass the guitars which creates the usual tight sound I hear in
>my studio? Or is the live situation just completely different?

I think it's more a matter of taste. For example, a lot of kids use
Mesa Dual Rectifier amps on stage now and part of that sound is the
'chugging' low end. Granted, few people control it meaningfully, so
it's usually just a lot of low end garbage that could be trimmed out a
bit, but still, it is part of a sound that people seem to like. Why
ditch it as a matter of course...

Personally, I don't highpass guitars as a rule anytime. I'd rather
hear the low end of the guitars blend with the low end of the bass.
Along that line, I usually like to boost some mids on the bass to make
that blend with the guitars. But, I'm probably going after something
different than you are. I find I rarely like a mix where everything
sits in its own frequency 'box'. It's just too sterile sounding to
me. But, that's really a matter of preference.

>Here is a few
>more questions:
>Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
>midrange from the guitars?

Never noticed that one... unless of course the singers are not singing
loudly enough, the drums and stage amps are too loud, the mike has too
wide a pattern and/or feedback would happen if they turned the vocals
up to sound right. Sometimes a live sound engineer has immovable
obstacles that prevent a good mix from happening, so they have to
settle for the best possible alternative. Some people also like the
aesthetic of having buried vocals... maybe it was completely intentional?

>In top venue national act productions, do the sound guys use more recording
>studio techniques, say, compressing the hell out of the vocal, putting a
>compressor on the whole main mix.. etc?? Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
>rack? I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound which people are
>raving about... Thanks for all your comments.
>Frank

You can't compress the hell out of anything on stage. Try it sometime
and see what happens. Unless you're on a gargantuan stage where the
speakers are really far away from the stage and you're outdoors, the
feedback would be tremendously annoying. Not to mention the pumping
drum and stage amp bleed inbetween vocal phrases.

If you can, try to multitrack what comes off of each mike on stage and
mix it in your studio. See what you can get away with and what works
or not. Aside from the speakers used in live performance, stage bleed
is the 'other big thing' that makes live sound and studio recording
different animals. You _can_ do a lot of processing, but not
everything you might do in a studio where tracks are isolated by walls
and time.


Best of luck,

Monte McGuire

[Monte P McGuire]

In article >,
FrankDebro1 > wrote:
>Got a few questions for guys who have done live and studio stuff: In the
>studio, I mix a heavy rock song to make each element of the mix have its own
>area. I roll OFF the lows of the heavy guitars and use the bass to give them
>their lows. I hear this mix in a LOT of heavy rock tunes and it works great
>because the low end becomes much TIGHTER then it does if you try to add lows to
>the guitars. Anyway, my question is this:
>
>I played a live show last night. The front of house guy was telling me that he
>adds lows to the guitars to get them growling. Is this common for live sound
>to actually add textures to the mix elements? Or should I have stepped in and
>asked him to Hi Pass the guitars which creates the usual tight sound I hear in
>my studio? Or is the live situation just completely different?

I think it's more a matter of taste. For example, a lot of kids use
Mesa Dual Rectifier amps on stage now and part of that sound is the
'chugging' low end. Granted, few people control it meaningfully, so
it's usually just a lot of low end garbage that could be trimmed out a
bit, but still, it is part of a sound that people seem to like. Why
ditch it as a matter of course...

Personally, I don't highpass guitars as a rule anytime. I'd rather
hear the low end of the guitars blend with the low end of the bass.
Along that line, I usually like to boost some mids on the bass to make
that blend with the guitars. But, I'm probably going after something
different than you are. I find I rarely like a mix where everything
sits in its own frequency 'box'. It's just too sterile sounding to
me. But, that's really a matter of preference.

>Here is a few
>more questions:
>Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
>midrange from the guitars?

Never noticed that one... unless of course the singers are not singing
loudly enough, the drums and stage amps are too loud, the mike has too
wide a pattern and/or feedback would happen if they turned the vocals
up to sound right. Sometimes a live sound engineer has immovable
obstacles that prevent a good mix from happening, so they have to
settle for the best possible alternative. Some people also like the
aesthetic of having buried vocals... maybe it was completely intentional?

>In top venue national act productions, do the sound guys use more recording
>studio techniques, say, compressing the hell out of the vocal, putting a
>compressor on the whole main mix.. etc?? Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
>rack? I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound which people are
>raving about... Thanks for all your comments.
>Frank

You can't compress the hell out of anything on stage. Try it sometime
and see what happens. Unless you're on a gargantuan stage where the
speakers are really far away from the stage and you're outdoors, the
feedback would be tremendously annoying. Not to mention the pumping
drum and stage amp bleed inbetween vocal phrases.

If you can, try to multitrack what comes off of each mike on stage and
mix it in your studio. See what you can get away with and what works
or not. Aside from the speakers used in live performance, stage bleed
is the 'other big thing' that makes live sound and studio recording
different animals. You _can_ do a lot of processing, but not
everything you might do in a studio where tracks are isolated by walls
and time.


Best of luck,

Monte McGuire

[Blind Joni]

>Next time you're at a live gig, ask
>the PA guy to play your album through the system and listen to what it sounds
>like, compared with the studio monitors. It's an eye-opener right there.

This is indeed an eye opener and sure to cause at least mild nausea because if
you cannot get into the system to find out what is going on you will walk away
with more questions than you came in with. I very often ask my novice mixer
friends to come to the studio and at least once hear something close to how it
was mixed..but most of them still use their overhyped car stereo as a mix
reference...coupled with all the variables the live room/band/stage situation
introduces. It's a wonder we ever hear anything tolerable.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>Next time you're at a live gig, ask
>the PA guy to play your album through the system and listen to what it sounds
>like, compared with the studio monitors. It's an eye-opener right there.

This is indeed an eye opener and sure to cause at least mild nausea because if
you cannot get into the system to find out what is going on you will walk away
with more questions than you came in with. I very often ask my novice mixer
friends to come to the studio and at least once hear something close to how it
was mixed..but most of them still use their overhyped car stereo as a mix
reference...coupled with all the variables the live room/band/stage situation
introduces. It's a wonder we ever hear anything tolerable.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Scott Dorsey]

Nick J. > wrote:
>FrankDebro1 wrote:
>
>> Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
>> midrange from the guitars?
>
>It's usually because the vocalist is too useless to sing loudly enough.
> I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
>when just they were put through the PA.

It's the vocalist not being loud enough, combined with the backline being
way too loud and stage levels being really high. Combine that with cheap
microphones that don't have very good rejection.

Last week I was sitting out in the recording truck and listening to the
stage feeds during the first sound check for a not-very-loud Celtic band.
Soloed the vocal channel and I could hear everything in there except the
vocals. Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
his face to get anything at all).
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Nick J. > wrote:
>FrankDebro1 wrote:
>
>> Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
>> midrange from the guitars?
>
>It's usually because the vocalist is too useless to sing loudly enough.
> I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
>when just they were put through the PA.

It's the vocalist not being loud enough, combined with the backline being
way too loud and stage levels being really high. Combine that with cheap
microphones that don't have very good rejection.

Last week I was sitting out in the recording truck and listening to the
stage feeds during the first sound check for a not-very-loud Celtic band.
Soloed the vocal channel and I could hear everything in there except the
vocals. Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
his face to get anything at all).
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Blind Joni]

>Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
>(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
>mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
>his face to get anything at all).

I hear that the 105 doesn't react well to this..is that truecompared to other
handheld condensors?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
>(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
>mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
>his face to get anything at all).

I hear that the 105 doesn't react well to this..is that truecompared to other
handheld condensors?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Scott Dorsey]

Blind Joni > wrote:
>>Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
>>(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
>>mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
>>his face to get anything at all).
>
>I hear that the 105 doesn't react well to this..is that truecompared to other
>handheld condensors?

It doesn't react well to it, but then most of the other handheld condensers
I have don't react so well to it either. It doesn't pop when you do that,
though. Then again, most dynamics don't react well to it either (and the
M-500 turns into mush when you shove the ball in your mouth).

I sometimes like the 441 as a vocal mike in bad situations if the vocalist
can keep far enough away from it not to pop it. But it is absolutely
intolerable way up close.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Blind Joni > wrote:
>>Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
>>(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
>>mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
>>his face to get anything at all).
>
>I hear that the 105 doesn't react well to this..is that truecompared to other
>handheld condensors?

It doesn't react well to it, but then most of the other handheld condensers
I have don't react so well to it either. It doesn't pop when you do that,
though. Then again, most dynamics don't react well to it either (and the
M-500 turns into mush when you shove the ball in your mouth).

I sometimes like the 441 as a vocal mike in bad situations if the vocalist
can keep far enough away from it not to pop it. But it is absolutely
intolerable way up close.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[david]

In article >, Scott Dorsey
> wrote:

> Blind Joni > wrote:
> >>Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
> >>(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
> >>mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
> >>his face to get anything at all).
> >
> >I hear that the 105 doesn't react well to this..is that truecompared to other
> >handheld condensors?
>
> It doesn't react well to it, but then most of the other handheld condensers
> I have don't react so well to it either. It doesn't pop when you do that,
> though. Then again, most dynamics don't react well to it either (and the
> M-500 turns into mush when you shove the ball in your mouth).
>
> I sometimes like the 441 as a vocal mike in bad situations if the vocalist
> can keep far enough away from it not to pop it. But it is absolutely
> intolerable way up close.
> --scott



The re-20 is quite good for avoiding pops on a vocal.





David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

[david]

In article >, Scott Dorsey
> wrote:

> Blind Joni > wrote:
> >>Replacing the Samson mike with a KMS105 cleaned that way up
> >>(although I still couldn't get the vocalist to get the mike away from his
> >>mouth... he was too used to cheap microphones that he had to shove into
> >>his face to get anything at all).
> >
> >I hear that the 105 doesn't react well to this..is that truecompared to other
> >handheld condensors?
>
> It doesn't react well to it, but then most of the other handheld condensers
> I have don't react so well to it either. It doesn't pop when you do that,
> though. Then again, most dynamics don't react well to it either (and the
> M-500 turns into mush when you shove the ball in your mouth).
>
> I sometimes like the 441 as a vocal mike in bad situations if the vocalist
> can keep far enough away from it not to pop it. But it is absolutely
> intolerable way up close.
> --scott



The re-20 is quite good for avoiding pops on a vocal.





David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

[George]

I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound

personally I would want the recorded sound to sound like the live sound

lets examine your premise(this is a generic "you" not you personally
)
you want to make a dynamic performance in a hundred diffrent rooms and a
hundred diffrent sound systems and at least 100 diffrent engineers, all
sound like your recording during the span of a 90 minute concert when
it took months of studio time endless analysing and retracking, a locker
full of mics that have never seen the light of day much less dragged
about dirty stages and thrown in boxes to be left in freezing trucks all
night, racks and racks of specialized studio gear and several weeks of
mix down then remix downs, edited to the nth degree and mastered again

this is what you want me as a live engineer to produce in the90 minutes
we will share together
I'll do my best
Peace
George
a"live engineer"

[George]

I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound

personally I would want the recorded sound to sound like the live sound

lets examine your premise(this is a generic "you" not you personally
)
you want to make a dynamic performance in a hundred diffrent rooms and a
hundred diffrent sound systems and at least 100 diffrent engineers, all
sound like your recording during the span of a 90 minute concert when
it took months of studio time endless analysing and retracking, a locker
full of mics that have never seen the light of day much less dragged
about dirty stages and thrown in boxes to be left in freezing trucks all
night, racks and racks of specialized studio gear and several weeks of
mix down then remix downs, edited to the nth degree and mastered again

this is what you want me as a live engineer to produce in the90 minutes
we will share together
I'll do my best
Peace
George
a"live engineer"

[Nick J.]

Monte P McGuire wrote:
> If you can, try to multitrack what comes off of each mike on stage and
> mix it in your studio. See what you can get away with and what works
> or not. Aside from the speakers used in live performance, stage bleed
> is the 'other big thing' that makes live sound and studio recording
> different animals. You _can_ do a lot of processing, but not
> everything you might do in a studio where tracks are isolated by walls
> and time.

I plan on doing this in quite a messy way -- the direct outs on my
Spirit SX, in to my Roland VM-3100. Then send it across to my PC as
multitracked as possible -- L/R to 1/2 on my Gina, Digital A to the
coaxial in on my Gina, Digital B to the optical in on my C-Media cheapo,
and the remainding bus out/aux out (configured as bus out) going to the
inputs on my pair of SB Lives(!). I think I could get most of the gigs
I do down to 10 tracks, provided I subgroup the drums.

Don't just just love the versatility of little digital desks?

--
Now playing:

[Nick J.]

Monte P McGuire wrote:
> If you can, try to multitrack what comes off of each mike on stage and
> mix it in your studio. See what you can get away with and what works
> or not. Aside from the speakers used in live performance, stage bleed
> is the 'other big thing' that makes live sound and studio recording
> different animals. You _can_ do a lot of processing, but not
> everything you might do in a studio where tracks are isolated by walls
> and time.

I plan on doing this in quite a messy way -- the direct outs on my
Spirit SX, in to my Roland VM-3100. Then send it across to my PC as
multitracked as possible -- L/R to 1/2 on my Gina, Digital A to the
coaxial in on my Gina, Digital B to the optical in on my C-Media cheapo,
and the remainding bus out/aux out (configured as bus out) going to the
inputs on my pair of SB Lives(!). I think I could get most of the gigs
I do down to 10 tracks, provided I subgroup the drums.

Don't just just love the versatility of little digital desks?

--
Now playing:

[Nick J.]

George wrote:

> you want to make a dynamic performance in a hundred diffrent rooms and a
> hundred diffrent sound systems and at least 100 diffrent engineers, all
> sound like your recording during the span of a 90 minute concert when
> it took months of studio time endless analysing and retracking, a locker
> full of mics that have never seen the light of day much less dragged
> about dirty stages and thrown in boxes to be left in freezing trucks all
> night, racks and racks of specialized studio gear and several weeks of
> mix down then remix downs, edited to the nth degree and mastered again

You tell 'em, sister.

> this is what you want me as a live engineer to produce in the90 minutes
> we will share together
> I'll do my best

Rock on.

--
Now playing:

[Nick J.]

George wrote:

> you want to make a dynamic performance in a hundred diffrent rooms and a
> hundred diffrent sound systems and at least 100 diffrent engineers, all
> sound like your recording during the span of a 90 minute concert when
> it took months of studio time endless analysing and retracking, a locker
> full of mics that have never seen the light of day much less dragged
> about dirty stages and thrown in boxes to be left in freezing trucks all
> night, racks and racks of specialized studio gear and several weeks of
> mix down then remix downs, edited to the nth degree and mastered again

You tell 'em, sister.

> this is what you want me as a live engineer to produce in the90 minutes
> we will share together
> I'll do my best

Rock on.

--
Now playing:

[Nick J.]

anthony.gosnell wrote:

> "Nick J." > wrote
>
>> I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
>>when just they were put through the PA.
>>
>>But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.
>
> You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.

And they turn them back up. They know best, remember. Considering
they've no idea how it sounds FOH. But they know best.

> I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
> with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
> turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.

This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

--
Now playing: Snuff - I Will Survive [160kbps Joint Stereo]

[Nick J.]

anthony.gosnell wrote:

> "Nick J." > wrote
>
>> I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
>>when just they were put through the PA.
>>
>>But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.
>
> You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.

And they turn them back up. They know best, remember. Considering
they've no idea how it sounds FOH. But they know best.

> I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
> with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
> turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.

This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

--
Now playing: Snuff - I Will Survive [160kbps Joint Stereo]

[George]

In article >,
"anthony.gosnell" > wrote:

> "Nick J." > wrote
> > I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
> > when just they were put through the PA.
> >
> > But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.
>
> You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.
> I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
> with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
> turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.
>
> --
> Anthony Gosnell
>
> to reply remove nospam.
>
>

Oh DUDE you were outsmarted by a BASS PLAYER!!! Ouch
:-)
G

[George]

In article >,
"anthony.gosnell" > wrote:

> "Nick J." > wrote
> > I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
> > when just they were put through the PA.
> >
> > But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.
>
> You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.
> I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
> with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
> turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.
>
> --
> Anthony Gosnell
>
> to reply remove nospam.
>
>

Oh DUDE you were outsmarted by a BASS PLAYER!!! Ouch
:-)
G

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> I sometimes like the 441 as a vocal mike in bad situations if the vocalist
> can keep far enough away from it not to pop it. But it is absolutely
> intolerable way up close.

And for some singers unable to maintain consistent position, it can be a
litle tight in the pattern. Nifty mic, though.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> I sometimes like the 441 as a vocal mike in bad situations if the vocalist
> can keep far enough away from it not to pop it. But it is absolutely
> intolerable way up close.

And for some singers unable to maintain consistent position, it can be a
litle tight in the pattern. Nifty mic, though.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Nick J. wrote:

> Bassists are, both
> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

The bassists for whom I've supplied SR over the last fifteen years or so
have generally been fabulous. Maybe we could say arrogant, ignorant,
often inexperienced, amplified musos are often assholes.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Nick J. wrote:

> Bassists are, both
> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

The bassists for whom I've supplied SR over the last fifteen years or so
have generally been fabulous. Maybe we could say arrogant, ignorant,
often inexperienced, amplified musos are often assholes.

--
ha

[George Gleason]

"Monte P McGuire" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> FrankDebro1 > wrote:
> >Got a few questions for guys who have done live and studio stuff: In the
> >studio, I mix a heavy rock song to make each element of the mix have its
own
> >area. I roll OFF the lows of the heavy guitars and use the bass to give
them
> >their lows. I hear this mix in a LOT of heavy rock tunes and it works
great
> >because the low end becomes much TIGHTER then it does if you try to add
lows to
> >the guitars. Anyway, my question is this:
>
I let the musicians tell me what they like tone wise for thier instruments
and do my best to give them what they ask for
it is not my place to 'invent" thier sound
I just make it louder
George

[George Gleason]

"Monte P McGuire" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> FrankDebro1 > wrote:
> >Got a few questions for guys who have done live and studio stuff: In the
> >studio, I mix a heavy rock song to make each element of the mix have its
own
> >area. I roll OFF the lows of the heavy guitars and use the bass to give
them
> >their lows. I hear this mix in a LOT of heavy rock tunes and it works
great
> >because the low end becomes much TIGHTER then it does if you try to add
lows to
> >the guitars. Anyway, my question is this:
>
I let the musicians tell me what they like tone wise for thier instruments
and do my best to give them what they ask for
it is not my place to 'invent" thier sound
I just make it louder
George

[Dave Martin]

"Nick J." > wrote in message
...

> This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.
>
How can anyone argue with that assessment? Now if you'll excuse me, I need
to wank for a while...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Dave Martin]

"Nick J." > wrote in message
...

> This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.
>
How can anyone argue with that assessment? Now if you'll excuse me, I need
to wank for a while...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[John]

>> This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
>> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.
>>

You know, strangely, I've had the exact opposite experience - I deal with a lot
of Jazz bassists, and they tend to be audiophiles - perhaps misguided, and
audio snake-oil peddling, but tone deaf is not something I'd call these guys.
They tend to be the most sound-concerned guys in the band.

John

[John]

>> This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
>> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.
>>

You know, strangely, I've had the exact opposite experience - I deal with a lot
of Jazz bassists, and they tend to be audiophiles - perhaps misguided, and
audio snake-oil peddling, but tone deaf is not something I'd call these guys.
They tend to be the most sound-concerned guys in the band.

John

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Dave Martin wrote:

> "Nick J." wrote...

> > This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
> > collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

> How can anyone argue with that assessment? Now if you'll excuse me, I need
> to wank for a while...

Now that we have the lowdown, do you prefer wanking uprightly, and if
so, with plywood or with carved solid woods? And in either case, do you
wank with one of those long, low note extensions?

Have you ever met a live sound "engineer" who didn't know one bass from
another, or one who thought Rosin was Batman's sidekick? Was it ever bad
enough that you brought your own amp, because real bass notes from real
basses in the hands of real bass players caused the "sobwoofers" to
sound like cat farts into a Frito bag?

Just curious. I'm thinking about getting a bass or two and don't want to
skimp on my wanking potential. I figured you'd know the scoop.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Dave Martin wrote:

> "Nick J." wrote...

> > This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
> > collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

> How can anyone argue with that assessment? Now if you'll excuse me, I need
> to wank for a while...

Now that we have the lowdown, do you prefer wanking uprightly, and if
so, with plywood or with carved solid woods? And in either case, do you
wank with one of those long, low note extensions?

Have you ever met a live sound "engineer" who didn't know one bass from
another, or one who thought Rosin was Batman's sidekick? Was it ever bad
enough that you brought your own amp, because real bass notes from real
basses in the hands of real bass players caused the "sobwoofers" to
sound like cat farts into a Frito bag?

Just curious. I'm thinking about getting a bass or two and don't want to
skimp on my wanking potential. I figured you'd know the scoop.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

John wrote:

> >> This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
> >> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

> You know, strangely, I've had the exact opposite experience - I deal with
> a lot of Jazz bassists, and they tend to be audiophiles - perhaps
> misguided, and audio snake-oil peddling, but tone deaf is not something
> I'd call these guys. They tend to be the most sound-concerned guys in the
> band.

And they got that way from having put up for too long with idiots at FOH
who were clueless about getting bass into a room, instead of truckloads
of mud.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

John wrote:

> >> This is exactly why it's not worth bothering with. Bassists are, both
> >> collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

> You know, strangely, I've had the exact opposite experience - I deal with
> a lot of Jazz bassists, and they tend to be audiophiles - perhaps
> misguided, and audio snake-oil peddling, but tone deaf is not something
> I'd call these guys. They tend to be the most sound-concerned guys in the
> band.

And they got that way from having put up for too long with idiots at FOH
who were clueless about getting bass into a room, instead of truckloads
of mud.

--
ha

[John]

>And they got that way from having put up for too long with idiots at FOH
>who were clueless about getting bass into a room, instead of truckloads
>of mud.

This is true, although I'd add that just because they are concerned doesn't
mean that they get good results. Many of them use terrible pickups, and EQ
them to death on their bass amps. They get a tone (from their bass amp) that
reinforces their bass sound within the band context, but sounds horrible (and
nothing like the bass) on its own.

That's all fine, but often they won't let you have the DI output (because they
think you're just going to put that clacky sound through the PA unchanged), and
insist you mic the amp, which sounds awful by itself. Letting me mix the two
together goes a long way to getting somewhere, although simply putting a mic on
the bass itself (vastly prefered if the environment will allow) solves it, too.
But you already knew that!



John

[John]

>And they got that way from having put up for too long with idiots at FOH
>who were clueless about getting bass into a room, instead of truckloads
>of mud.

This is true, although I'd add that just because they are concerned doesn't
mean that they get good results. Many of them use terrible pickups, and EQ
them to death on their bass amps. They get a tone (from their bass amp) that
reinforces their bass sound within the band context, but sounds horrible (and
nothing like the bass) on its own.

That's all fine, but often they won't let you have the DI output (because they
think you're just going to put that clacky sound through the PA unchanged), and
insist you mic the amp, which sounds awful by itself. Letting me mix the two
together goes a long way to getting somewhere, although simply putting a mic on
the bass itself (vastly prefered if the environment will allow) solves it, too.
But you already knew that!



John

[Dave Martin]

Yes, carved, no, yes, yes, and I'm sure that you're perfectly capable of
living up to your wanking potential without outside help...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"LeBaron & Alrich" > wrote in message
...

>
> Now that we have the lowdown, do you prefer wanking uprightly, and if
> so, with plywood or with carved solid woods? And in either case, do you
> wank with one of those long, low note extensions?
>
> Have you ever met a live sound "engineer" who didn't know one bass from
> another, or one who thought Rosin was Batman's sidekick? Was it ever bad
> enough that you brought your own amp, because real bass notes from real
> basses in the hands of real bass players caused the "sobwoofers" to
> sound like cat farts into a Frito bag?
>
> Just curious. I'm thinking about getting a bass or two and don't want to
> skimp on my wanking potential. I figured you'd know the scoop.
>
> --
> hank alrich * secret mountain
> audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
> "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Dave Martin]

Yes, carved, no, yes, yes, and I'm sure that you're perfectly capable of
living up to your wanking potential without outside help...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"LeBaron & Alrich" > wrote in message
...

>
> Now that we have the lowdown, do you prefer wanking uprightly, and if
> so, with plywood or with carved solid woods? And in either case, do you
> wank with one of those long, low note extensions?
>
> Have you ever met a live sound "engineer" who didn't know one bass from
> another, or one who thought Rosin was Batman's sidekick? Was it ever bad
> enough that you brought your own amp, because real bass notes from real
> basses in the hands of real bass players caused the "sobwoofers" to
> sound like cat farts into a Frito bag?
>
> Just curious. I'm thinking about getting a bass or two and don't want to
> skimp on my wanking potential. I figured you'd know the scoop.
>
> --
> hank alrich * secret mountain
> audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
> "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Sugarite]

> > Bassists are, both
> > collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.
>
> The bassists for whom I've supplied SR over the last fifteen years or so
> have generally been fabulous. Maybe we could say arrogant, ignorant,
> often inexperienced, amplified musos are often assholes.

The most retarded part about a typical bass rig is that the highest speaker
on the stack points at the bassist's upper arm. Often 6 out of 8 10"
woofers are doing nothing but contributing to stage mud. My idea of a good
rig for a typical stage is a 4x10 elevated about 18" aimed across the stage
and on top a single 15" aimed directly at the bassist's head.

[Sugarite]

> > Bassists are, both
> > collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.
>
> The bassists for whom I've supplied SR over the last fifteen years or so
> have generally been fabulous. Maybe we could say arrogant, ignorant,
> often inexperienced, amplified musos are often assholes.

The most retarded part about a typical bass rig is that the highest speaker
on the stack points at the bassist's upper arm. Often 6 out of 8 10"
woofers are doing nothing but contributing to stage mud. My idea of a good
rig for a typical stage is a 4x10 elevated about 18" aimed across the stage
and on top a single 15" aimed directly at the bassist's head.

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Sugarite wrote:

> > > Bassists are, both
> > > collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

> > The bassists for whom I've supplied SR over the last fifteen years or so
> > have generally been fabulous. Maybe we could say arrogant, ignorant,
> > often inexperienced, amplified musos are often assholes.

> The most retarded part about a typical bass rig is that the highest speaker
> on the stack points at the bassist's upper arm. Often 6 out of 8 10"
> woofers are doing nothing but contributing to stage mud. My idea of a good
> rig for a typical stage is a 4x10 elevated about 18" aimed across the stage
> and on top a single 15" aimed directly at the bassist's head.

I don't think Todd Phillips wants a rig like that. <g>

In general, if there's an amplified bass onstage, I'm getting to work
with someone different than the folks being descirbed in this thread. I
have not had problems in years, and I have found my suggetions and
requests met with prompt and favorable responses. If I ask for a direct
because I'm not getting what I want in the hall from a mic, it hasn't
been a problem. If I've aksed for more or less of whatever from them,
I've gotten it right away.

I cannot imagine imagining a "good rig" that fits all stages and styles
and players. For example, Todd had a tiny amp on a bar stool mainly so
he could hear himself clearly vis a vis the stage monitors without
pushing his bass.

From little rigs like that, gently amping an upright, to large Eden and
SWR rigs, it's been smooth going. These aren't attitudinal know-it-alls.
These are professional musicians of excellent caliber, and their
experience shows in their cooperative approach to delivering nicely
balanced sound onstage and into the hall.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Sugarite wrote:

> > > Bassists are, both
> > > collectively and singularly, ******s. And usually tone deaf.

> > The bassists for whom I've supplied SR over the last fifteen years or so
> > have generally been fabulous. Maybe we could say arrogant, ignorant,
> > often inexperienced, amplified musos are often assholes.

> The most retarded part about a typical bass rig is that the highest speaker
> on the stack points at the bassist's upper arm. Often 6 out of 8 10"
> woofers are doing nothing but contributing to stage mud. My idea of a good
> rig for a typical stage is a 4x10 elevated about 18" aimed across the stage
> and on top a single 15" aimed directly at the bassist's head.

I don't think Todd Phillips wants a rig like that. <g>

In general, if there's an amplified bass onstage, I'm getting to work
with someone different than the folks being descirbed in this thread. I
have not had problems in years, and I have found my suggetions and
requests met with prompt and favorable responses. If I ask for a direct
because I'm not getting what I want in the hall from a mic, it hasn't
been a problem. If I've aksed for more or less of whatever from them,
I've gotten it right away.

I cannot imagine imagining a "good rig" that fits all stages and styles
and players. For example, Todd had a tiny amp on a bar stool mainly so
he could hear himself clearly vis a vis the stage monitors without
pushing his bass.

From little rigs like that, gently amping an upright, to large Eden and
SWR rigs, it's been smooth going. These aren't attitudinal know-it-alls.
These are professional musicians of excellent caliber, and their
experience shows in their cooperative approach to delivering nicely
balanced sound onstage and into the hall.

--
ha

[Don Cooper]

I thought Studio Sound was a better magazine.


Don

[Don Cooper]

I thought Studio Sound was a better magazine.


Don

[Blind Joni]

>>I hear that the 105 doesn't react well to this..is that truecompared to
>other
>> >handheld condensors?
>>
>> It doesn't react well to it, but then most of the other handheld condensers
>> I have don't react so well to it either. It doesn't pop when you do that,
>> though. Then again, most dynamics don't react well to it either (and the
>> M-500 turns into mush when you shove the ball in your mouth).
>>
>> I sometimes like the 441 as a vocal mike in bad situations if the vocalist
>> can keep far enough away from it not to pop it. But it is absolutely
>> intolerable way up close.
>> --scott
>
>
>
>The re-20 is quite good for avoiding pops on a vocal.
>

Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little big. I
have ehard that one of the new A-T handheld condensors are really decent when
swallowed compared to the 105..I'll try and find the article.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Thomas Bishop]

"Blind Joni" > wrote in message
> Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little
big. I
> have ehard that one of the new A-T handheld condensors are really decent
when
> swallowed compared to the 105..I'll try and find the article.

It's the AE5400 and it seems like Ty Ford is the major advocate of it.

[Thomas Bishop]

"Blind Joni" > wrote in message
> Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little
big. I
> have ehard that one of the new A-T handheld condensors are really decent
when
> swallowed compared to the 105..I'll try and find the article.

It's the AE5400 and it seems like Ty Ford is the major advocate of it.

[Rick Powell]

(FrankDebro1) wrote in message >...
> Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
> rack?

I was at a show several years back where Fleetwood Mac opened (the
Dave Mason-Billy Burnette-Bekka Bramlett version just before Nicks &
Buckingham came back to the band). They had a DeMaria Labs ADL 1000
(La2A copy) in the FOH rack. I don't know if the piece contributed or
detracted from the sound, but it was one of the most godawful live
mixes I have ever witnessed of a touring act.

I have seen a Lexicon 480L, compressors for 16 channels and a ton of
Drawmer gates in a club rack. I'll bet if I snuck in the back of the
rack and pulled the cables on all that muck, it'd be a 50/50 or better
proposition that the sound would improve.

Just as in sound recording, the sound source (player & instrument) is
usually most of it, and the room (or lack of a room) most of the rest
of it. If you have good tools at your disposal in a live situation
(good clean power, a balanced system of good-quality speakers, a
decent console, and a good pair of ears, you're 90% of the way there
to enhance the good qualities and battle the inadequacies of the sound
source and the room. YMMV.

RP

[Rick Powell]

(FrankDebro1) wrote in message >...
> Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
> rack?

I was at a show several years back where Fleetwood Mac opened (the
Dave Mason-Billy Burnette-Bekka Bramlett version just before Nicks &
Buckingham came back to the band). They had a DeMaria Labs ADL 1000
(La2A copy) in the FOH rack. I don't know if the piece contributed or
detracted from the sound, but it was one of the most godawful live
mixes I have ever witnessed of a touring act.

I have seen a Lexicon 480L, compressors for 16 channels and a ton of
Drawmer gates in a club rack. I'll bet if I snuck in the back of the
rack and pulled the cables on all that muck, it'd be a 50/50 or better
proposition that the sound would improve.

Just as in sound recording, the sound source (player & instrument) is
usually most of it, and the room (or lack of a room) most of the rest
of it. If you have good tools at your disposal in a live situation
(good clean power, a balanced system of good-quality speakers, a
decent console, and a good pair of ears, you're 90% of the way there
to enhance the good qualities and battle the inadequacies of the sound
source and the room. YMMV.

RP

[Rick Powell]

(FrankDebro1) wrote in message >...
> Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live
> rack?

I was at a show several years back where Fleetwood Mac opened (the
Dave Mason-Billy Burnette-Bekka Bramlett version just before Nicks &
Buckingham came back to the band). They had a DeMaria Labs ADL 1000
(La2A copy) in the FOH rack. I don't know if the piece contributed or
detracted from the sound, but it was one of the most godawful live
mixes I have ever witnessed of a touring act.

I have seen a Lexicon 480L, compressors for 16 channels and a ton of
Drawmer gates in a club rack. I'll bet if I snuck in the back of the
rack and pulled the cables on all that muck, it'd be a 50/50 or better
proposition that the sound would improve.

Just as in sound recording, the sound source (player & instrument) is
usually most of it, and the room (or lack of a room) most of the rest
of it. If you have good tools at your disposal in a live situation
(good clean power, a balanced system of good-quality speakers, a
decent console, and a good pair of ears, you're 90% of the way there
to enhance the good qualities and battle the inadequacies of the sound
source and the room. YMMV.

RP

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"FrankDebro1" > wrote in message ...

> I played a live show last night. The front of house guy was telling me that he
> adds lows to the guitars to get them growling.

he is sucking up his headroom and loosing possibly needed gain. Most
soundtypes I know usually follow the 'cut only' method. Take away what
you don't want and you will be left with what you do want when you ease
up the volume to compensate for the cut.

> Is this common for live sound to actually add textures to the mix elements?

Everybody is their own 'artiste' in this business. That's not to say that
any one person's interpretation is any better than another - depending
of course, on what you actually hear as an end result or how well the
system maintains it's integrity after said artistic intrusions.

> Or should I have stepped in and asked him to Hi Pass the guitars which
> creates the usual tight sound I hear in my studio?

Unfortunately, he was the FOH guy and you were the player. If it got
really bad for you, you might have spoken up.

> Or is the live situation just completely different?

People will tell you that it is. I dissagree. A mixer is a mixer; a comp
is a comp, etc on down the line of tools. I have recorded dozens of albums
over the years that are perfect clones of the house mix for the evening.

There are bound to be (as happens every time I say this) those who will
tell you that this is impossible. I dissagree again and can prove otherwise.

I know dozens of live guys who are afraid of the studio and even more
studio guys who are afraid of live sound. It need not be that way, for there
is (IMHO) only one real difference.... in most good studios, you are working
in what many call a 'controlled' environment - - live, one simply needs to
learn to control the environment.... one extra step of shaping the sound
to the characteristics of the room. Other than that, there isn't one stinking
bit of difference between live and studio except the lounge and better air
conditioning.

> Here is a few more questions:
> Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
> midrange from the guitars?

Because, as above, they added bass instead of removing mids & highs?

> In top venue national act productions, do the sound guys use more recording
> studio techniques,

I wouldn't confine this to 'top venues', but then I'm the guy who says there
isn't much difference between studio and live except the environment.

> say, compressing the hell out of the vocal, putting a
> compressor on the whole main mix.. etc??

Smooth is smooth. It either comes from the performer naturally or it is
designed by the engineer. I don't see why not... IF it is necessary.

> Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live rack?

Not me.

> I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound which people are
> raving about...

You might consider lowering your expectations just a little. You can get
close, but you are faced with different systems and rooms which will all
cast their shadow over your performance.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"FrankDebro1" > wrote in message ...

> I played a live show last night. The front of house guy was telling me that he
> adds lows to the guitars to get them growling.

he is sucking up his headroom and loosing possibly needed gain. Most
soundtypes I know usually follow the 'cut only' method. Take away what
you don't want and you will be left with what you do want when you ease
up the volume to compensate for the cut.

> Is this common for live sound to actually add textures to the mix elements?

Everybody is their own 'artiste' in this business. That's not to say that
any one person's interpretation is any better than another - depending
of course, on what you actually hear as an end result or how well the
system maintains it's integrity after said artistic intrusions.

> Or should I have stepped in and asked him to Hi Pass the guitars which
> creates the usual tight sound I hear in my studio?

Unfortunately, he was the FOH guy and you were the player. If it got
really bad for you, you might have spoken up.

> Or is the live situation just completely different?

People will tell you that it is. I dissagree. A mixer is a mixer; a comp
is a comp, etc on down the line of tools. I have recorded dozens of albums
over the years that are perfect clones of the house mix for the evening.

There are bound to be (as happens every time I say this) those who will
tell you that this is impossible. I dissagree again and can prove otherwise.

I know dozens of live guys who are afraid of the studio and even more
studio guys who are afraid of live sound. It need not be that way, for there
is (IMHO) only one real difference.... in most good studios, you are working
in what many call a 'controlled' environment - - live, one simply needs to
learn to control the environment.... one extra step of shaping the sound
to the characteristics of the room. Other than that, there isn't one stinking
bit of difference between live and studio except the lounge and better air
conditioning.

> Here is a few more questions:
> Why do medium venue FOH guys always bury the vocals in the midst of tons of
> midrange from the guitars?

Because, as above, they added bass instead of removing mids & highs?

> In top venue national act productions, do the sound guys use more recording
> studio techniques,

I wouldn't confine this to 'top venues', but then I'm the guy who says there
isn't much difference between studio and live except the environment.

> say, compressing the hell out of the vocal, putting a
> compressor on the whole main mix.. etc??

Smooth is smooth. It either comes from the performer naturally or it is
designed by the engineer. I don't see why not... IF it is necessary.

> Anyone ever use an LA-2 in their live rack?

Not me.

> I want to make my live sound as good as my album sound which people are
> raving about...

You might consider lowering your expectations just a little. You can get
close, but you are faced with different systems and rooms which will all
cast their shadow over your performance.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[ScotFraser]

<< What did you expect? Nexo is the "in thing", apparently.
>>

Nexo was the next "in thing" several years ago, but they got buried by the rush
to line arrays. The Nexo variable angle horn is a neat trick, but I think they
only implement that on their small boxes, so it ends up pretty much being a
short throw to shorter throw range of variability.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< What did you expect? Nexo is the "in thing", apparently.
>>

Nexo was the next "in thing" several years ago, but they got buried by the rush
to line arrays. The Nexo variable angle horn is a neat trick, but I think they
only implement that on their small boxes, so it ends up pretty much being a
short throw to shorter throw range of variability.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little big.
>>

It was the vocal mic of choice for Sweet Honey In The Rock for many years.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little big.
>>

It was the vocal mic of choice for Sweet Honey In The Rock for many years.


Scott Fraser

[Jay Kadis]

In article >
(ScotFraser) writes:
> << Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little
big.
> >>
>
> It was the vocal mic of choice for Sweet Honey In The Rock for many years.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

And I think I caught a shot of Muddy Waters (or was it B.B. King?) singing into
one on the PBS Blues series.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >
(ScotFraser) writes:
> << Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little
big.
> >>
>
> It was the vocal mic of choice for Sweet Honey In The Rock for many years.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

And I think I caught a shot of Muddy Waters (or was it B.B. King?) singing into
one on the PBS Blues series.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[ScotFraser]

<< I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
turned the volume on his bass up. >>

A real pro. Gaffer tape his head to his speaker cabinet & he'll get enough
level at low volume settings so you can mix FOH.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
turned the volume on his bass up. >>

A real pro. Gaffer tape his head to his speaker cabinet & he'll get enough
level at low volume settings so you can mix FOH.


Scott Fraser

[[email protected]]

On 2003-10-07 said:
>Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
>Unfortunately, he was the FOH guy and you were the player. If it
>>got really bad for you, you might have spoken up. Or is the live
>situation just completely different? People will tell you that it
>is. I dissagree. A mixer is a mixer; a comp is a comp, etc on
>down the line of tools. I have recorded dozens of albums over the
>years that are perfect clones of the house mix for the evening.
>There are bound to be (as happens every time I say this) those who
>will tell you that this is impossible. I dissagree again and can
>prove otherwise. I know dozens of live guys who are afraid of the
>studio and even more studio guys who are afraid of live sound. It
>need not be that way, for there is (IMHO) only one real difference..
>.. in most good studios, you are working in what many call a
>'controlled' environment - - live, one simply needs to learn to
>control the environment.

Part of this control is placing backline equipment so it doesn't blow
directly into the vocal microphones etc. YOu have to do a bit more to
control the enviroment which a lot of musos forget in a live
situation. Aim the sound at your ears from those guitar cabs and
odn't expect to run that Marshall half stack at ten. YEs it can be
done as David says, if the guy driving the mixer and the musicians are
all working together in this thing and all are competent at their
jobs.

I've been on both ends of this situation more times than I can count
in my life and can tell you that chances are good if the sound guy has
worked the venue before he's got some pointers you should listen to.
It's hard to get this so-called weekend guitar god to point his amp at
his ears from the side instead of blow it at the front mics. THen you
hear him bitch if he finds out that the guy at foh didn't even have
his mic on his guitar cabinet active.

wHen there's not a flamefest going on you'll find plenty of good
discussions of this at alt.audio.pro.live-sound and some google
searching in that group will definitely help you out.

Regards,




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[[email protected]]

On 2003-10-07 said:
>Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
>Unfortunately, he was the FOH guy and you were the player. If it
>>got really bad for you, you might have spoken up. Or is the live
>situation just completely different? People will tell you that it
>is. I dissagree. A mixer is a mixer; a comp is a comp, etc on
>down the line of tools. I have recorded dozens of albums over the
>years that are perfect clones of the house mix for the evening.
>There are bound to be (as happens every time I say this) those who
>will tell you that this is impossible. I dissagree again and can
>prove otherwise. I know dozens of live guys who are afraid of the
>studio and even more studio guys who are afraid of live sound. It
>need not be that way, for there is (IMHO) only one real difference..
>.. in most good studios, you are working in what many call a
>'controlled' environment - - live, one simply needs to learn to
>control the environment.

Part of this control is placing backline equipment so it doesn't blow
directly into the vocal microphones etc. YOu have to do a bit more to
control the enviroment which a lot of musos forget in a live
situation. Aim the sound at your ears from those guitar cabs and
odn't expect to run that Marshall half stack at ten. YEs it can be
done as David says, if the guy driving the mixer and the musicians are
all working together in this thing and all are competent at their
jobs.

I've been on both ends of this situation more times than I can count
in my life and can tell you that chances are good if the sound guy has
worked the venue before he's got some pointers you should listen to.
It's hard to get this so-called weekend guitar god to point his amp at
his ears from the side instead of blow it at the front mics. THen you
hear him bitch if he finds out that the guy at foh didn't even have
his mic on his guitar cabinet active.

wHen there's not a flamefest going on you'll find plenty of good
discussions of this at alt.audio.pro.live-sound and some google
searching in that group will definitely help you out.

Regards,




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[ScotFraser]

<< I know dozens of live guys who are afraid of the studio and even more
studio guys who are afraid of live sound. It need not be that way, for there
is (IMHO) only one real difference.... in most good studios, you are working
in what many call a 'controlled' environment - - live, one simply needs to
learn to control the environment.... one extra step of shaping the sound
to the characteristics of the room. Other than that, there isn't one stinking
bit of difference between live and studio except the lounge and better air
conditioning.>>

I do both. To me they are as different as sculpture & ballet. The main
difference to me is the time element. Decor also. Much as I like my studio, it
doesn't compare to being able to step outside the venue & finding myself in
Prague, Tokyo, Paris, Buenos Aires or Venice. Studio work to me is about
polishing aspects of performance in a place where I don't have to concern
myself with the playback system & listening acoustics. Live work is all about
tuning & polishing the playback characteristics in a largely uncontrollable
acoustic environmnet, with artists whose performance is at such a high level
that I don't have to concern myself with that aspect. So, for me, the two
disciplines, although quite related, are really polar opposites.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< I know dozens of live guys who are afraid of the studio and even more
studio guys who are afraid of live sound. It need not be that way, for there
is (IMHO) only one real difference.... in most good studios, you are working
in what many call a 'controlled' environment - - live, one simply needs to
learn to control the environment.... one extra step of shaping the sound
to the characteristics of the room. Other than that, there isn't one stinking
bit of difference between live and studio except the lounge and better air
conditioning.>>

I do both. To me they are as different as sculpture & ballet. The main
difference to me is the time element. Decor also. Much as I like my studio, it
doesn't compare to being able to step outside the venue & finding myself in
Prague, Tokyo, Paris, Buenos Aires or Venice. Studio work to me is about
polishing aspects of performance in a place where I don't have to concern
myself with the playback system & listening acoustics. Live work is all about
tuning & polishing the playback characteristics in a largely uncontrollable
acoustic environmnet, with artists whose performance is at such a high level
that I don't have to concern myself with that aspect. So, for me, the two
disciplines, although quite related, are really polar opposites.

Scott Fraser

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is done by
guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing studio work. The
next thing you need to know is that if they're not complete neophytes,
they're half- to three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the
need to put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience
of fresh-eared teens. Basically, if the guy knew the difference
between good sound and bad, he wouldn't be stuck mixing your crappy
band. No offense.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is done by
guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing studio work. The
next thing you need to know is that if they're not complete neophytes,
they're half- to three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the
need to put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience
of fresh-eared teens. Basically, if the guy knew the difference
between good sound and bad, he wouldn't be stuck mixing your crappy
band. No offense.

ulysses

[George Gleason]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is done by
> guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing studio work. The
> next thing you need to know is that if they're not complete neophytes,
> they're half- to three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the
> need to put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience
> of fresh-eared teens. Basically, if the guy knew the difference
> between good sound and bad, he wouldn't be stuck mixing your crappy
> band. No offense.
>
> ulysses

Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
childish remarks
I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound
It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
very little translates
That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
mix my live band
George

[George Gleason]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is done by
> guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing studio work. The
> next thing you need to know is that if they're not complete neophytes,
> they're half- to three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the
> need to put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience
> of fresh-eared teens. Basically, if the guy knew the difference
> between good sound and bad, he wouldn't be stuck mixing your crappy
> band. No offense.
>
> ulysses

Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
childish remarks
I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound
It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
very little translates
That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
mix my live band
George

[ryanm]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little
big.
> >>
>
> It was the vocal mic of choice for Sweet Honey In The Rock for many years.
>
Ahem... they're not competing with marshall half-stacks and a drum kit
for volume.

ryanm

[ryanm]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << Again, we're talking about live stage mics here...an RE-20 is a little
big.
> >>
>
> It was the vocal mic of choice for Sweet Honey In The Rock for many years.
>
Ahem... they're not competing with marshall half-stacks and a drum kit
for volume.

ryanm

[ryanm]

"Nick J." > wrote in message
...
>
> It's usually because the vocalist is too useless to sing loudly enough.
> I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
> when just they were put through the PA.
>
> But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.
>

A dimed marshall is a wonderful thing in it's place, but it's place is
not in a bar or small venue. In bars and small venues, I'd say that about
90% of the "singer isn't loud enough" problems aren't actually the singer,
the mic, not enough compressor on the vocals, etc. The stage volume is
probably too loud. Leave the half-stack home, get a decent 18-22 watt combo
amp, and keep the volumes low enough for the musicians to be able to talk to
one another with a (slightly) raised voice on stage. The singer should be
able to stay several inches off the mic for the majority of the performance,
and only needs to get closer for quiet (softly spoken, sung, or whispered)
parts.

A non-master marshall plexi is a wondrous thing to behold, but it's a
one trick pony. Bridge the channels, roll your finger across the knobs, and
it will sing like the voice of god, but it sounds like dog **** on 2. A
small amp can be cranked up to get the tone you're looking for without
blasting a hole in the back of the singer's head, and actually allows the
singer to use such novel practices as dynamics and mic technique.

Singing as loud as you possibly can for a 3 hour performance not only
makes it difficult to give a good performance, it is physically damaging to
your vocal cords. The guitarist's instrument is indirectly causing damage to
the singer's instrument, or rather the guitarist's *use* of the instrument
is causing damage. My recommendation to singers who experience these kinds
of problems is to simply reciprocate. Take a mic stand and bash the
offending amplifier until it is quiet enough. After all, the amp can be
replaced, your voice cannot.

ryanm - a singer who has never been accused of being too quiet ; )

BTW: All of the above assumes that the singer can actually sing and
understands such concepts as dynamics and mic technique, of course.

[ryanm]

"Nick J." > wrote in message
...
>
> It's usually because the vocalist is too useless to sing loudly enough.
> I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
> when just they were put through the PA.
>
> But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're ****.
>

A dimed marshall is a wonderful thing in it's place, but it's place is
not in a bar or small venue. In bars and small venues, I'd say that about
90% of the "singer isn't loud enough" problems aren't actually the singer,
the mic, not enough compressor on the vocals, etc. The stage volume is
probably too loud. Leave the half-stack home, get a decent 18-22 watt combo
amp, and keep the volumes low enough for the musicians to be able to talk to
one another with a (slightly) raised voice on stage. The singer should be
able to stay several inches off the mic for the majority of the performance,
and only needs to get closer for quiet (softly spoken, sung, or whispered)
parts.

A non-master marshall plexi is a wondrous thing to behold, but it's a
one trick pony. Bridge the channels, roll your finger across the knobs, and
it will sing like the voice of god, but it sounds like dog **** on 2. A
small amp can be cranked up to get the tone you're looking for without
blasting a hole in the back of the singer's head, and actually allows the
singer to use such novel practices as dynamics and mic technique.

Singing as loud as you possibly can for a 3 hour performance not only
makes it difficult to give a good performance, it is physically damaging to
your vocal cords. The guitarist's instrument is indirectly causing damage to
the singer's instrument, or rather the guitarist's *use* of the instrument
is causing damage. My recommendation to singers who experience these kinds
of problems is to simply reciprocate. Take a mic stand and bash the
offending amplifier until it is quiet enough. After all, the amp can be
replaced, your voice cannot.

ryanm - a singer who has never been accused of being too quiet ; )

BTW: All of the above assumes that the singer can actually sing and
understands such concepts as dynamics and mic technique, of course.

[ryanm]

"Monte P McGuire" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think it's more a matter of taste. For example, a lot of kids use
> Mesa Dual Rectifier amps on stage now and part of that sound is the
> 'chugging' low end. Granted, few people control it meaningfully, so
> it's usually just a lot of low end garbage that could be trimmed out a
> bit, but still, it is part of a sound that people seem to like. Why
> ditch it as a matter of course...
>
That's not a matter of taste, that's a matter of *image*. In any venue
smaller than a stadium, a triple rectumfrier is too loud to be turned up to
the levels where it sounds good. Especially with that big fat cabinet, wow
those thing can crush skulls at 300 yards.

It also doesn't help that a lot of kids are tuning to dropped-D and then
detuning the whole guitar a whole step, to make it "heavy". You get a blank
stare when you try to explain how "heavy" is in the riff, not the tuning of
the guitar, though. "But listen, it's *lower*!". Pick your heavy: Sabbath,
Metallica, Pantera, Slayer, etc, they all managed skull crushingly heavy
stuff without detuning to dropped-C, but guitarists have long been trying to
replace talent with a gimmick, so I guess it's nothing new. All I know is
that if heavy was in the tuning of the guitar, metal guitarists would've
switched to baritone guitars a long time ago.

ryanm

[ryanm]

"Monte P McGuire" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think it's more a matter of taste. For example, a lot of kids use
> Mesa Dual Rectifier amps on stage now and part of that sound is the
> 'chugging' low end. Granted, few people control it meaningfully, so
> it's usually just a lot of low end garbage that could be trimmed out a
> bit, but still, it is part of a sound that people seem to like. Why
> ditch it as a matter of course...
>
That's not a matter of taste, that's a matter of *image*. In any venue
smaller than a stadium, a triple rectumfrier is too loud to be turned up to
the levels where it sounds good. Especially with that big fat cabinet, wow
those thing can crush skulls at 300 yards.

It also doesn't help that a lot of kids are tuning to dropped-D and then
detuning the whole guitar a whole step, to make it "heavy". You get a blank
stare when you try to explain how "heavy" is in the riff, not the tuning of
the guitar, though. "But listen, it's *lower*!". Pick your heavy: Sabbath,
Metallica, Pantera, Slayer, etc, they all managed skull crushingly heavy
stuff without detuning to dropped-C, but guitarists have long been trying to
replace talent with a gimmick, so I guess it's nothing new. All I know is
that if heavy was in the tuning of the guitar, metal guitarists would've
switched to baritone guitars a long time ago.

ryanm

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

George Gleason > wrote:

> Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
> childish remarks

Oh come on, I'm an ass for telling the truth. Admit it.

> I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound
> It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
> very little translates

I won't argue with you there. It is a very different skill set. I
dare say live sound is a whole lot more difficult. Which is why the
lack of skill in that end of the profession is so unfortunate.

> That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
> mix my live band

I've been the studio guy mixing a live band, and I'll be the first to
tell you it's not a good situation. But at least the sound diffused
itself into the atmosphere rather than being preserved for the eons on
a slab of polycarbonate.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

George Gleason > wrote:

> Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
> childish remarks

Oh come on, I'm an ass for telling the truth. Admit it.

> I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound
> It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
> very little translates

I won't argue with you there. It is a very different skill set. I
dare say live sound is a whole lot more difficult. Which is why the
lack of skill in that end of the profession is so unfortunate.

> That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
> mix my live band

I've been the studio guy mixing a live band, and I'll be the first to
tell you it's not a good situation. But at least the sound diffused
itself into the atmosphere rather than being preserved for the eons on
a slab of polycarbonate.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

ryanm > wrote:

> A small amp can be cranked up to get the tone you're looking for

Spot on analysis of the situation except for this part. The tone I'm
looking for, a lot of the time, is physically unable to emanate from a
little amp or a processor. Anybody who's played a Telecaster through a
Twin with the volume on 7 knows what I'm talking about. And I'm not
talking about distortion. Crank up a Deluxe or a Champ and you get
some nice fuzz. Half-crank a Twin or a 100W Marshall and you get clean
sustain. Not quite interchangeable.

Unfortunately, the rest of what you said is true. Which is why we're
faced with the problem in the first place.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

ryanm > wrote:

> A small amp can be cranked up to get the tone you're looking for

Spot on analysis of the situation except for this part. The tone I'm
looking for, a lot of the time, is physically unable to emanate from a
little amp or a processor. Anybody who's played a Telecaster through a
Twin with the volume on 7 knows what I'm talking about. And I'm not
talking about distortion. Crank up a Deluxe or a Champ and you get
some nice fuzz. Half-crank a Twin or a 100W Marshall and you get clean
sustain. Not quite interchangeable.

Unfortunately, the rest of what you said is true. Which is why we're
faced with the problem in the first place.

ulysses

[George Gleason]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> George Gleason > wrote:
>
> > Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
> > childish remarks
>
> Oh come on, I'm an ass for telling the truth. Admit it.

I did admit your a ass for such a statment
but it is FAR from "truth"
If you really believe this , you have my pity
George

[George Gleason]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> George Gleason > wrote:
>
> > Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
> > childish remarks
>
> Oh come on, I'm an ass for telling the truth. Admit it.

I did admit your a ass for such a statment
but it is FAR from "truth"
If you really believe this , you have my pity
George

[BlacklineMusic]

>The first thing you need to know...

What he said. The FOH mixers I've worked with are deaf talentless idiots who
think that its cool to add tons of upper mids to everything, tons of lows so
that there is not headroom, and have every instrument fight to get any kind of
clarity whatsoever. What you get is a 300Hz driven pile of boxy over bright
boomy mess. The answer? Find one sound man, teach him how to do it right, and
then pay him to do every gig. Its so worth it.
Steve

[BlacklineMusic]

>The first thing you need to know...

What he said. The FOH mixers I've worked with are deaf talentless idiots who
think that its cool to add tons of upper mids to everything, tons of lows so
that there is not headroom, and have every instrument fight to get any kind of
clarity whatsoever. What you get is a 300Hz driven pile of boxy over bright
boomy mess. The answer? Find one sound man, teach him how to do it right, and
then pay him to do every gig. Its so worth it.
Steve

[MikeK]

"anthony.gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> "Nick J." > wrote
> > I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
> > when just they were put through the PA.
> >
> > But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're
****.
>
> You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.
> I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
> with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
> turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.
>

Do they do this cause they're stupid (probable) or because they can't hear
themselves in the mix and don't know they're being heard (possible)?

[MikeK]

"anthony.gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> "Nick J." > wrote
> > I've FOH'd for bands whose *BACK LINE* has drowned out the vocalist
> > when just they were put through the PA.
> >
> > But what can you do? Tell them to sing louder, they tell you you're
****.
>
> You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.
> I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by starting
> with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down he
> turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.
>

Do they do this cause they're stupid (probable) or because they can't hear
themselves in the mix and don't know they're being heard (possible)?

[George Gleason]

"BlacklineMusic" > wrote in message
...
> >The first thing you need to know...
>
> What he said. The FOH mixers I've worked with are deaf talentless idiots
who
> think that its cool to add tons of upper mids to everything, tons of lows
so
> that there is not headroom, and have every instrument fight to get any
kind of
> clarity whatsoever. What you get is a 300Hz driven pile of boxy over
bright
> boomy mess. The answer? Find one sound man, teach him how to do it
right, and
> then pay him to do every gig. Its so worth it.
> Steve

I have never met a studio guy(without extensive live sound experiance) who
can mix live sound regardless of the gear or the time given for the task
they just do not understand even the very basics of phase,acoustics,stage
micing,or eq
every recording engineer who I have witnessed try to mix live just could
not get it together
they do not understand the concept of the vocals over the instruments
they spend endless time on the compressors/reverbs while the vocals are a
muddy mess
last studio guy I had looked at the Harrison desk I was using and flat out
told me he was "too intimidated" by it and asked me to take over
perhaps I should cross post this over to the live sound forum so you studio
guys can get some more real world views on this
Peace
george

[George Gleason]

"BlacklineMusic" > wrote in message
...
> >The first thing you need to know...
>
> What he said. The FOH mixers I've worked with are deaf talentless idiots
who
> think that its cool to add tons of upper mids to everything, tons of lows
so
> that there is not headroom, and have every instrument fight to get any
kind of
> clarity whatsoever. What you get is a 300Hz driven pile of boxy over
bright
> boomy mess. The answer? Find one sound man, teach him how to do it
right, and
> then pay him to do every gig. Its so worth it.
> Steve

I have never met a studio guy(without extensive live sound experiance) who
can mix live sound regardless of the gear or the time given for the task
they just do not understand even the very basics of phase,acoustics,stage
micing,or eq
every recording engineer who I have witnessed try to mix live just could
not get it together
they do not understand the concept of the vocals over the instruments
they spend endless time on the compressors/reverbs while the vocals are a
muddy mess
last studio guy I had looked at the Harrison desk I was using and flat out
told me he was "too intimidated" by it and asked me to take over
perhaps I should cross post this over to the live sound forum so you studio
guys can get some more real world views on this
Peace
george

[anthony.gosnell]

"MikeK" > wrote
> > You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.
> > I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by
starting
> > with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down
he
> > turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.
> >
>
> Do they do this cause they're stupid (probable) or because they can't hear
> themselves in the mix and don't know they're being heard (possible)?

With this particular bass player, I doubt he could hear anything else in the
mix.

Anthony Gosnell

[anthony.gosnell]

"MikeK" > wrote
> > You can always go onto stage and turn their amplifiers down.
> > I did a couple of gigs with a bass guitarist who outsmarted me by
starting
> > with a very low volume on his guitar. Every time I turned his amp down
he
> > turned the volume on his bass up. Beware of this.
> >
>
> Do they do this cause they're stupid (probable) or because they can't hear
> themselves in the mix and don't know they're being heard (possible)?

With this particular bass player, I doubt he could hear anything else in the
mix.

Anthony Gosnell

[LeBaron & Alrich]

George Gleason wrote:

> "Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote...

> > The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is done by
> > guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing studio work. The
> > next thing you need to know is that if they're not complete neophytes,
> > they're half- to three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the
> > need to put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience
> > of fresh-eared teens. Basically, if the guy knew the difference
> > between good sound and bad, he wouldn't be stuck mixing your crappy
> > band. No offense.

> Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
> childish remarks

George,

It's silly of you to overlook Ulysses' actual statemnet: "most live
sound is done by guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing
studio work". You demean youself by overlooking what he really wrote.

He's right if you consider all the live "sound" being done in all the
clubs in the US and the rest of the world. The proportion of deaf and
clueless but arrogant folks doing club knob mangling is unfortuante, but
it does not reflect on the skills of most professionals, and certainly
he was not including the likes of you in that "most".

> I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound

That is sensible of you, since I came to the studio from the live end of
things. And I do not "try" to do live sound; I do it well, based on the
comments of artists with whom I have worked.

> It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
> very little translates

I know lots of folks who hold both skill sets very well. It's little
different from being able to play two different musical instruments, and
lots of folks do that well, too. Skills derived from practice in either
area translate very well to the other, in my own experience.

> That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
> mix my live band

I know plenty of people who move seamlessly between the two, and I would
be happy to have any of them run the system in either circumstance. I
personally refuse to draw lines between live and studio and I find that
openmindedness serves me well in both practices.

Ulysses statement is so true in my own experience that it's the very
thing that drove me to start having a PA of my own back in 1968.
verywhere my band went we met some attitudinal prick who knew nothing
about sound but who was "in charge" of the live sound. I built a little
PA and away we went. I have never looked back since, and the result of
learnign about PA and performing live led to request to record people.
One thing led to another and in my own person, the road and studio
melded into professional audio and musical work.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

George Gleason wrote:

> "Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote...

> > The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is done by
> > guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing studio work. The
> > next thing you need to know is that if they're not complete neophytes,
> > they're half- to three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the
> > need to put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience
> > of fresh-eared teens. Basically, if the guy knew the difference
> > between good sound and bad, he wouldn't be stuck mixing your crappy
> > band. No offense.

> Ulysses Your a ass to paint all live sound pros with such ignorant and
> childish remarks

George,

It's silly of you to overlook Ulysses' actual statemnet: "most live
sound is done by guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing
studio work". You demean youself by overlooking what he really wrote.

He's right if you consider all the live "sound" being done in all the
clubs in the US and the rest of the world. The proportion of deaf and
clueless but arrogant folks doing club knob mangling is unfortuante, but
it does not reflect on the skills of most professionals, and certainly
he was not including the likes of you in that "most".

> I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound

That is sensible of you, since I came to the studio from the live end of
things. And I do not "try" to do live sound; I do it well, based on the
comments of artists with whom I have worked.

> It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
> very little translates

I know lots of folks who hold both skill sets very well. It's little
different from being able to play two different musical instruments, and
lots of folks do that well, too. Skills derived from practice in either
area translate very well to the other, in my own experience.

> That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
> mix my live band

I know plenty of people who move seamlessly between the two, and I would
be happy to have any of them run the system in either circumstance. I
personally refuse to draw lines between live and studio and I find that
openmindedness serves me well in both practices.

Ulysses statement is so true in my own experience that it's the very
thing that drove me to start having a PA of my own back in 1968.
verywhere my band went we met some attitudinal prick who knew nothing
about sound but who was "in charge" of the live sound. I built a little
PA and away we went. I have never looked back since, and the result of
learnign about PA and performing live led to request to record people.
One thing led to another and in my own person, the road and studio
melded into professional audio and musical work.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

BlacklineMusic wrote:

> The answer? Find one sound man, teach him how to do it right, and
> then pay him to do every gig. Its so worth it.

Yep. Made the banjo player's old lady our "soundman" back in 1969. She
didn't know anything about electronics or sound per se, but she did know
what the band was supposed to sound like live, and that turned out to be
the most important thing of all. She quickly became able to do a very
good job.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

BlacklineMusic wrote:

> The answer? Find one sound man, teach him how to do it right, and
> then pay him to do every gig. Its so worth it.

Yep. Made the banjo player's old lady our "soundman" back in 1969. She
didn't know anything about electronics or sound per se, but she did know
what the band was supposed to sound like live, and that turned out to be
the most important thing of all. She quickly became able to do a very
good job.

--
ha

[Blind Joni]

>I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound
>> It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
>> very little translates
>
>I won't argue with you there. It is a very different skill set. I
>dare say live sound is a whole lot more difficult. Which is why the
>lack of skill in that end of the profession is so unfortunate.
>
>> That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
>> mix my live band
>
>I've been the studio guy mixing a live band, and I'll be the first to
>tell you it's not a good situation.

I keep hearing this and hearing this.
The only variable that changes is the environment. You are balancing stage
sound with reinforced sound. A fader is a fader..a compressor is a
compressor..etc..etc. And a good understanding of the available processing can
make a live gig easier to pull together.
My most common experience is live only guys; who because of the demands of time
and logistics, never have time to learn how different processors and actual
approaches to mixing can work in your favor. they have to " get through the
night" ..night after night..no time to experiement and learn. A lot of studio
only guys get frustrated with this scenario. I feel being able to do both is
invaluable. I know most of the top tour live mixers have a lot of studio
experience and from reports I read on their live mixes ..it shows.
One off gigs are kind of a hard thing to deal with in any situation.but when I
see a band who has a dedicated BE and they sound like ****...my guess is they
guy has no studio experience.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>I will refrain from slamming the studio guys who try to do live sound
>> It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the ones developed in the studios
>> very little translates
>
>I won't argue with you there. It is a very different skill set. I
>dare say live sound is a whole lot more difficult. Which is why the
>lack of skill in that end of the profession is so unfortunate.
>
>> That being said I would rather have a live guy mix my cd than a studio guy
>> mix my live band
>
>I've been the studio guy mixing a live band, and I'll be the first to
>tell you it's not a good situation.

I keep hearing this and hearing this.
The only variable that changes is the environment. You are balancing stage
sound with reinforced sound. A fader is a fader..a compressor is a
compressor..etc..etc. And a good understanding of the available processing can
make a live gig easier to pull together.
My most common experience is live only guys; who because of the demands of time
and logistics, never have time to learn how different processors and actual
approaches to mixing can work in your favor. they have to " get through the
night" ..night after night..no time to experiement and learn. A lot of studio
only guys get frustrated with this scenario. I feel being able to do both is
invaluable. I know most of the top tour live mixers have a lot of studio
experience and from reports I read on their live mixes ..it shows.
One off gigs are kind of a hard thing to deal with in any situation.but when I
see a band who has a dedicated BE and they sound like ****...my guess is they
guy has no studio experience.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[George Gleason]

>
> George,
>
> It's silly of you to overlook Ulysses' actual statemnet: "most live
> sound is done by guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing
> studio work".
then Hank myou still have missed his quote as well
as "most" live sound (as your defining it) if from guys who have no
experiance either as a musicain or studio tech
there for they have not"" flunked out at those skills as a precoursor to
mixing thier buddys band at joes roadhouse for beer chips

I have to assume when we are discussing thigs here that we are talking a
bit above the plumber who picks up 30$ in a C&W bar on saturday night
schleping gear and "mixing" the band

the implied meaning in the original post is (IMO) "live sound guys are dumb
as a bag of hammers but not quite as sharp"
and that if you had any ability at all you would be doing real mixing (in
the studio)
and only beause you are stupid/lazy/both/can't cut it at "real" mixing do
you ever end up at a live sound
mixing gig

this is how his post read to me
and frankly I am both offended and insulted by it
George

[George Gleason]

>
> George,
>
> It's silly of you to overlook Ulysses' actual statemnet: "most live
> sound is done by guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing
> studio work".
then Hank myou still have missed his quote as well
as "most" live sound (as your defining it) if from guys who have no
experiance either as a musicain or studio tech
there for they have not"" flunked out at those skills as a precoursor to
mixing thier buddys band at joes roadhouse for beer chips

I have to assume when we are discussing thigs here that we are talking a
bit above the plumber who picks up 30$ in a C&W bar on saturday night
schleping gear and "mixing" the band

the implied meaning in the original post is (IMO) "live sound guys are dumb
as a bag of hammers but not quite as sharp"
and that if you had any ability at all you would be doing real mixing (in
the studio)
and only beause you are stupid/lazy/both/can't cut it at "real" mixing do
you ever end up at a live sound
mixing gig

this is how his post read to me
and frankly I am both offended and insulted by it
George

[[email protected]]

On 2003-10-08 (LeBaron&Alrich) said:
>> > The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is
>>done by > guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing
>>studio work. The > next thing you need to know is that if
>>they're not complete neophytes, > they're half- to
>>three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the > need to
>>put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience >
>>of fresh-eared teens.
<snip>
>He's right if you consider all the live "sound" being done
>in all the clubs in the US and the rest of the world. The
>proportion of deaf and clueless but arrogant folks doing club knob
>mangling is unfortunate, but it does not reflect on the skills of
>most professionals, and certainly he was not including the likes of
>>you in that "most". I will refrain from slamming the studio guys
>who try to do live sound That is sensible of you, since I came to
>the studio from the live end of things. And I do not "try" to do
>live sound; I do it well, based on the comments of artists with
>>whom I have worked. It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the
>>ones developed in the studios very little translates
>I know lots of folks who hold both skill sets very well. It's little
>different from being able to play two different musical instruments,
>and lots of folks do that well, too. Skills derived from practice
>in either area translate very well to the other, in my own
>>experience.
I came originally from the live end of things as well and I get
compliments on my live chops in most situations. I maintain the two
skill sets are inter related to a great degree. It's a matter of
ears first. AFter you've conquered the ears part it's the ability to
communicate with the folks on stage to help you achieve better
results. POsitioinng of back line speakers etc. are so important so
you can manage what you're getting out front. YOu have only one shot
at it to get it right and that means the pressure's on. HOwever I
enjoy working live sound as much or more when things go well than I do
working with some vocalist who has to retake phrase after phrase and
then wonders if I can't edit it to death to get a good take.

I think if you were to look in on alt.audio.pro.live-sound you'd see a
fair percentage of guys and maybe even a gal or two over there who do
both and consider themselves to be reasonably competent at both.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



"Computer Mixing" is a contradiction in terms in LIVE audio!

[[email protected]]

On 2003-10-08 (LeBaron&Alrich) said:
>> > The first thing you need to know is that most live sound is
>>done by > guys who flunked out of playing in bands or doing
>>studio work. The > next thing you need to know is that if
>>they're not complete neophytes, > they're half- to
>>three-quarters-deaf. Which explains why they feel the > need to
>>put an SM81 on the hi-hat in a small brick room for an audience >
>>of fresh-eared teens.
<snip>
>He's right if you consider all the live "sound" being done
>in all the clubs in the US and the rest of the world. The
>proportion of deaf and clueless but arrogant folks doing club knob
>mangling is unfortunate, but it does not reflect on the skills of
>most professionals, and certainly he was not including the likes of
>>you in that "most". I will refrain from slamming the studio guys
>who try to do live sound That is sensible of you, since I came to
>the studio from the live end of things. And I do not "try" to do
>live sound; I do it well, based on the comments of artists with
>>whom I have worked. It is clearly a diffrent skill set than the
>>ones developed in the studios very little translates
>I know lots of folks who hold both skill sets very well. It's little
>different from being able to play two different musical instruments,
>and lots of folks do that well, too. Skills derived from practice
>in either area translate very well to the other, in my own
>>experience.
I came originally from the live end of things as well and I get
compliments on my live chops in most situations. I maintain the two
skill sets are inter related to a great degree. It's a matter of
ears first. AFter you've conquered the ears part it's the ability to
communicate with the folks on stage to help you achieve better
results. POsitioinng of back line speakers etc. are so important so
you can manage what you're getting out front. YOu have only one shot
at it to get it right and that means the pressure's on. HOwever I
enjoy working live sound as much or more when things go well than I do
working with some vocalist who has to retake phrase after phrase and
then wonders if I can't edit it to death to get a good take.

I think if you were to look in on alt.audio.pro.live-sound you'd see a
fair percentage of guys and maybe even a gal or two over there who do
both and consider themselves to be reasonably competent at both.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



"Computer Mixing" is a contradiction in terms in LIVE audio!

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

George Gleason > wrote:

> the implied meaning in the original post is (IMO) "live sound guys are dumb
> as a bag of hammers but not quite as sharp"

No, when I said that I was talking about drummers, not sound guys.

> and that if you had any ability at all you would be doing real mixing
> (in the studio) and only beause you are stupid/lazy/both/can't cut it
> at "real" mixing do you ever end up at a live sound mixing gig

I think what I said was more along the lines of unqualified people not
being successfully omitted from the live sound profession, not that it
was their exclusive domain. I don't think studio mixing is any more
"real" than live mixing. There are plenty of uneducated, unskilled,
unqualified dumbasses in both ends of the pool.

I am aware that not everybody in the live sound world fits my
description. There are a few folks around this forum who I'd be
honored to have mix my crappy band, live or in the studio. I don't
think the dive bars where I see bands could afford to hire them though.
That has a lot to do with the caliber of "professional" found mixing
most of the live music that happens in the world.

> this is how his post read to me
> and frankly I am both offended and insulted by it

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was describing you specifically.


ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

George Gleason > wrote:

> the implied meaning in the original post is (IMO) "live sound guys are dumb
> as a bag of hammers but not quite as sharp"

No, when I said that I was talking about drummers, not sound guys.

> and that if you had any ability at all you would be doing real mixing
> (in the studio) and only beause you are stupid/lazy/both/can't cut it
> at "real" mixing do you ever end up at a live sound mixing gig

I think what I said was more along the lines of unqualified people not
being successfully omitted from the live sound profession, not that it
was their exclusive domain. I don't think studio mixing is any more
"real" than live mixing. There are plenty of uneducated, unskilled,
unqualified dumbasses in both ends of the pool.

I am aware that not everybody in the live sound world fits my
description. There are a few folks around this forum who I'd be
honored to have mix my crappy band, live or in the studio. I don't
think the dive bars where I see bands could afford to hire them though.
That has a lot to do with the caliber of "professional" found mixing
most of the live music that happens in the world.

> this is how his post read to me
> and frankly I am both offended and insulted by it

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was describing you specifically.


ulysses

[George]

> > this is how his post read to me
> > and frankly I am both offended and insulted by it
>
> I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was describing you specifically.
>
>
In as much as I am live engineer but rest assuredly I have spent the
time. and own the tools to produce stunningly sweet live sound
and most of the live sound"Professionals" I know are truly skilled
masters at the craft
I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
a recording professional
in the process of becoming a live sound pro I have had to master
ac power distro
lighting systems
structural engineering in regard to rigging
obtain a cdl
accounting(my personal weakest skill)
fire saftey
stage building
carpentry
component level troublshooting and repair
metal working
travel agency type tour planning
salesmanship
and hundreds of more non audio related skill sets as well as be
familiar with the layout and functionality of dozens of desks and
speaker systems
I have to understand acoustics in order to select and properly deploy a
sound system for smooth coverage in any venue often in pouring rain and
freezing tempatures
day after day of 2 hours of sleep
you insult all live sound pros who take thier profession to heart
strive for excellence day in and day out with your ignorant ppost
yes there are idiots and assholes in live sound but they never achieve
much professionally or personally from it
you own live sound pros a apology for your thoughtless words
George

[George]

> > this is how his post read to me
> > and frankly I am both offended and insulted by it
>
> I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was describing you specifically.
>
>
In as much as I am live engineer but rest assuredly I have spent the
time. and own the tools to produce stunningly sweet live sound
and most of the live sound"Professionals" I know are truly skilled
masters at the craft
I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
a recording professional
in the process of becoming a live sound pro I have had to master
ac power distro
lighting systems
structural engineering in regard to rigging
obtain a cdl
accounting(my personal weakest skill)
fire saftey
stage building
carpentry
component level troublshooting and repair
metal working
travel agency type tour planning
salesmanship
and hundreds of more non audio related skill sets as well as be
familiar with the layout and functionality of dozens of desks and
speaker systems
I have to understand acoustics in order to select and properly deploy a
sound system for smooth coverage in any venue often in pouring rain and
freezing tempatures
day after day of 2 hours of sleep
you insult all live sound pros who take thier profession to heart
strive for excellence day in and day out with your ignorant ppost
yes there are idiots and assholes in live sound but they never achieve
much professionally or personally from it
you own live sound pros a apology for your thoughtless words
George

[Yuri T.]

I've done both. You only get one chance to get it right live. Running
live sound I've had 10,000 people screaming for music while the PA was
down (not mine, I was subbing). So you have to be a tech too. I've had
a studio guy come in to mix a band live and seen the show go down in
flames because he couldn't understand why the system kept feeding back
with the EQ and compression he was using on the vocals. Running
monitors is the most stressful and thankless job in audio. You have to
be able to hear feedback, know which mix and what frequency to grab
within a second and kill it. You learn what 2k sounds like. Better
bands will listen to you when you ask them to try to turn down so you
can actually mix. I loved working outside. You can get a studio
quality mix outdoors without the hellatious rooms I was used to
working in.

I had to unlearn some things as I worked in the studio. I also had to
learn new things as well.

Theree are some folks who can do both well. But both require
experience. So given the choices if experience was only one way (live
only or studio only). I would rather a live engineer mix my record
than the recording engineer mix live. The feedback would kill me.

[Yuri T.]

I've done both. You only get one chance to get it right live. Running
live sound I've had 10,000 people screaming for music while the PA was
down (not mine, I was subbing). So you have to be a tech too. I've had
a studio guy come in to mix a band live and seen the show go down in
flames because he couldn't understand why the system kept feeding back
with the EQ and compression he was using on the vocals. Running
monitors is the most stressful and thankless job in audio. You have to
be able to hear feedback, know which mix and what frequency to grab
within a second and kill it. You learn what 2k sounds like. Better
bands will listen to you when you ask them to try to turn down so you
can actually mix. I loved working outside. You can get a studio
quality mix outdoors without the hellatious rooms I was used to
working in.

I had to unlearn some things as I worked in the studio. I also had to
learn new things as well.

Theree are some folks who can do both well. But both require
experience. So given the choices if experience was only one way (live
only or studio only). I would rather a live engineer mix my record
than the recording engineer mix live. The feedback would kill me.

[Scott Dorsey]

Justin Ulysses Morse > wrote:
>
>I think what I said was more along the lines of unqualified people not
>being successfully omitted from the live sound profession, not that it
>was their exclusive domain. I don't think studio mixing is any more
>"real" than live mixing. There are plenty of uneducated, unskilled,
>unqualified dumbasses in both ends of the pool.

The problem is that the dumbass recording guys make bad recordings that
people generally don't hear.

But EVERYBODY hears the dumbass live sound guys. ALL the time. Please
make it stop.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Justin Ulysses Morse > wrote:
>
>I think what I said was more along the lines of unqualified people not
>being successfully omitted from the live sound profession, not that it
>was their exclusive domain. I don't think studio mixing is any more
>"real" than live mixing. There are plenty of uneducated, unskilled,
>unqualified dumbasses in both ends of the pool.

The problem is that the dumbass recording guys make bad recordings that
people generally don't hear.

But EVERYBODY hears the dumbass live sound guys. ALL the time. Please
make it stop.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

George > wrote:

> I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
> can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
> a recording professional

So, if I'm as thin-skinned and whiny as you, I should be shocked and
appalled that you would say such a thing about recording professionals.
But since I know there's some truth to it, and I do know what it takes
to gain real professionalism in either live or studio work, and my
personal self image isn't dependent on what some jackass on the
internet says about my livelihood, I don't feel the need to invoke my
god-given right to get offended at any off-the-cuff remark I overhear.

> in the process of becoming a live sound pro I have had to master
> ac power distro
> lighting systems
> structural engineering in regard to rigging
> obtain a cdl
> accounting(my personal weakest skill)
> fire saftey
> stage building
> carpentry
> component level troublshooting and repair
> metal working
> travel agency type tour planning
> salesmanship
> and hundreds of more non audio related skill sets as well as be
> familiar with the layout and functionality of dozens of desks and
> speaker systems
> I have to understand acoustics in order to select and properly deploy a
> sound system for smooth coverage in any venue often in pouring rain and
> freezing tempatures
> day after day of 2 hours of sleep

Yeah, that's great for you. If all the guys whose mixes I've had to
listen to had your skills, the world would be a better place.
Incidentally, these are by and large the same skills needed to be
successful in the studio. Some of it is the same.

> you insult all live sound pros who take thier profession to heart
> strive for excellence day in and day out with your ignorant ppost

No, I don't insult all live sound pros. I insult the ones who do a
lousy job, and apparently the one who insists on being insulted because
he feels threatened by a casual observation regarding an unfortunately
common situation in typical music venues. If you take your profession
to heart and strive for excellence, then I wasn't talking about you.
If you insist on being offended anyway, you've got bigger problems.
Maybe you need to quit reading my posts.

> yes there are idiots and assholes in live sound but they never achieve
> much professionally or personally from it

But they still manage to keep showing up every weekend to the
low-paying "sound guy" job they're not qualified for.

> you own live sound pros a apology for your thoughtless words
> George

Okay, I'm sorry George. I recant all my statements. I hereby proclaim
that every single live sound engineer I've ever encountered, and surely
every one I've yet to encounter, is positively God in a Jaegermeister
T-Shirt and physically incapable of making a bad audio decision. If
only studio engineers, doctors, astronauts, and nuns could muster the
professionalism, understanding, and all-inclusive knowledge and
expertise that every single live sound engineer holds in his or her
tiniest pinky-finger, then all would be right with the world. O why
must I be forced to live in this basement world where walls have been
built between microphone and speaker?


One last nail in my coffin:

Why do sound engineers say "Check one two, check one two"?

Because on "three" you have to lift something.


ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

George > wrote:

> I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
> can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
> a recording professional

So, if I'm as thin-skinned and whiny as you, I should be shocked and
appalled that you would say such a thing about recording professionals.
But since I know there's some truth to it, and I do know what it takes
to gain real professionalism in either live or studio work, and my
personal self image isn't dependent on what some jackass on the
internet says about my livelihood, I don't feel the need to invoke my
god-given right to get offended at any off-the-cuff remark I overhear.

> in the process of becoming a live sound pro I have had to master
> ac power distro
> lighting systems
> structural engineering in regard to rigging
> obtain a cdl
> accounting(my personal weakest skill)
> fire saftey
> stage building
> carpentry
> component level troublshooting and repair
> metal working
> travel agency type tour planning
> salesmanship
> and hundreds of more non audio related skill sets as well as be
> familiar with the layout and functionality of dozens of desks and
> speaker systems
> I have to understand acoustics in order to select and properly deploy a
> sound system for smooth coverage in any venue often in pouring rain and
> freezing tempatures
> day after day of 2 hours of sleep

Yeah, that's great for you. If all the guys whose mixes I've had to
listen to had your skills, the world would be a better place.
Incidentally, these are by and large the same skills needed to be
successful in the studio. Some of it is the same.

> you insult all live sound pros who take thier profession to heart
> strive for excellence day in and day out with your ignorant ppost

No, I don't insult all live sound pros. I insult the ones who do a
lousy job, and apparently the one who insists on being insulted because
he feels threatened by a casual observation regarding an unfortunately
common situation in typical music venues. If you take your profession
to heart and strive for excellence, then I wasn't talking about you.
If you insist on being offended anyway, you've got bigger problems.
Maybe you need to quit reading my posts.

> yes there are idiots and assholes in live sound but they never achieve
> much professionally or personally from it

But they still manage to keep showing up every weekend to the
low-paying "sound guy" job they're not qualified for.

> you own live sound pros a apology for your thoughtless words
> George

Okay, I'm sorry George. I recant all my statements. I hereby proclaim
that every single live sound engineer I've ever encountered, and surely
every one I've yet to encounter, is positively God in a Jaegermeister
T-Shirt and physically incapable of making a bad audio decision. If
only studio engineers, doctors, astronauts, and nuns could muster the
professionalism, understanding, and all-inclusive knowledge and
expertise that every single live sound engineer holds in his or her
tiniest pinky-finger, then all would be right with the world. O why
must I be forced to live in this basement world where walls have been
built between microphone and speaker?


One last nail in my coffin:

Why do sound engineers say "Check one two, check one two"?

Because on "three" you have to lift something.


ulysses

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Yuri T." > wrote in message om...
>
> So given the choices if experience was only one way (live
> only or studio only). I would rather a live engineer mix my record
> than the recording engineer mix live. The feedback would kill me.


This kinda' says to me that the studio engineer types you refer to
don't *really* have a grip on audio principles, or 'feedback' would
be a non-issue.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Yuri T." > wrote in message om...
>
> So given the choices if experience was only one way (live
> only or studio only). I would rather a live engineer mix my record
> than the recording engineer mix live. The feedback would kill me.


This kinda' says to me that the studio engineer types you refer to
don't *really* have a grip on audio principles, or 'feedback' would
be a non-issue.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

MAMS\ > wrote:

> This kinda' says to me that the studio engineer types you refer to
> don't *really* have a grip on audio principles, or 'feedback' would
> be a non-issue.

Have you ever done live sound in a small, poorly-designed room with
worn-out 2nd-hand Peavey PA gear, $40 microphones, and a steady booking
of inexperienced but loud rock bands who yell at you in front of the
audience if they can't hear their own untrained voices? Trust me,
feedback is an issue in the real world. I'll be the first to admit I
was not very good at live sound, but it was not for lack of
understanding of audio principles.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

MAMS\ > wrote:

> This kinda' says to me that the studio engineer types you refer to
> don't *really* have a grip on audio principles, or 'feedback' would
> be a non-issue.

Have you ever done live sound in a small, poorly-designed room with
worn-out 2nd-hand Peavey PA gear, $40 microphones, and a steady booking
of inexperienced but loud rock bands who yell at you in front of the
audience if they can't hear their own untrained voices? Trust me,
feedback is an issue in the real world. I'll be the first to admit I
was not very good at live sound, but it was not for lack of
understanding of audio principles.

ulysses

[ScotFraser]

<< most of the live sound"Professionals" I know are truly skilled
masters at the craft>>

I find the guys who are owner/operators or system techs for the higher end
sound companies TEND to be very knowledgible, astute & easy to work with. On
the other hand, as house sound engineer for a performing arts facility in LA, I
see a lot of guest engineers with major touring shows coming through here, &
I'd say maybe 10% do what I consider a skilled, professional, musically
sculpted mix. Easily the majority of house engineers I encounter on tour I
would consider sub-competent. I also agree I have impossibly high standards.

<<It takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
a recording professional>>

The people who buy a DAW & a couple Chinese mics are the studio equivalent of
the guys who put a couple JBL 4735 cabinets in the corner of a storefront bar,
add some SM58s & a Peavey mixer & call themselves live sound engineers. Same
thing. A pro is a pro in either situation, & acheiving true artistry in the
studio or live is a lifetime pursuit that many strive for, only a few attain.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< most of the live sound"Professionals" I know are truly skilled
masters at the craft>>

I find the guys who are owner/operators or system techs for the higher end
sound companies TEND to be very knowledgible, astute & easy to work with. On
the other hand, as house sound engineer for a performing arts facility in LA, I
see a lot of guest engineers with major touring shows coming through here, &
I'd say maybe 10% do what I consider a skilled, professional, musically
sculpted mix. Easily the majority of house engineers I encounter on tour I
would consider sub-competent. I also agree I have impossibly high standards.

<<It takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
a recording professional>>

The people who buy a DAW & a couple Chinese mics are the studio equivalent of
the guys who put a couple JBL 4735 cabinets in the corner of a storefront bar,
add some SM58s & a Peavey mixer & call themselves live sound engineers. Same
thing. A pro is a pro in either situation, & acheiving true artistry in the
studio or live is a lifetime pursuit that many strive for, only a few attain.

Scott Fraser

[George Gleason]

I guess we are back where we started
you talk like a ass
I judge you to be a ass
let go some of the venom your life will improve
I guarentte it
Peace
George

[George Gleason]

I guess we are back where we started
you talk like a ass
I judge you to be a ass
let go some of the venom your life will improve
I guarentte it
Peace
George

[George Gleason]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> MAMS\ > wrote:
>
> > This kinda' says to me that the studio engineer types you refer to
> > don't *really* have a grip on audio principles, or 'feedback' would
> > be a non-issue.
>
> Have you ever done live sound in a small, poorly-designed room with
> worn-out 2nd-hand Peavey PA gear, $40 microphones, and a steady booking
> of inexperienced but loud rock bands who yell at you in front of the
> audience if they can't hear their own untrained voices? Trust me,
> feedback is an issue in the real world. I'll be the first to admit I
> was not very good at live sound, but it was not for lack of
> understanding of audio principles.
>
maybe it was your people skills
or rather the lack of them
George

[George Gleason]

"Justin Ulysses Morse" > wrote in message
...
> MAMS\ > wrote:
>
> > This kinda' says to me that the studio engineer types you refer to
> > don't *really* have a grip on audio principles, or 'feedback' would
> > be a non-issue.
>
> Have you ever done live sound in a small, poorly-designed room with
> worn-out 2nd-hand Peavey PA gear, $40 microphones, and a steady booking
> of inexperienced but loud rock bands who yell at you in front of the
> audience if they can't hear their own untrained voices? Trust me,
> feedback is an issue in the real world. I'll be the first to admit I
> was not very good at live sound, but it was not for lack of
> understanding of audio principles.
>
maybe it was your people skills
or rather the lack of them
George

[LeBaron & Alrich]

George wrote:

> I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
> can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
> a recording professional

Uhhh, George? I know several folks who dropped a ****ant's pocket change
on an SR24, a ****load of 57's and 58's, and some Peavey crap and call
themselves SR pros. It ain't any different, except that those guys each
have a bigger flashlight than I carry.

--

ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

George wrote:

> I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
> can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
> a recording professional

Uhhh, George? I know several folks who dropped a ****ant's pocket change
on an SR24, a ****load of 57's and 58's, and some Peavey crap and call
themselves SR pros. It ain't any different, except that those guys each
have a bigger flashlight than I carry.

--

ha

[Blind Joni]

>n the process of becoming a live sound pro I have had to master
>ac power distro
>lighting systems
>structural engineering in regard to rigging
>obtain a cdl
>accounting(my personal weakest skill)
>fire saftey
>stage building
>carpentry
>component level troublshooting and repair
>metal working
>travel agency type tour planning
>salesmanship
>and hundreds of more non audio related skill sets as well as be
>familiar with the layout and functionality of dozens of desks and
>speaker systems
>I have to understand acoustics in order to select and properly deploy a
>sound system for smooth coverage in any venue often in pouring rain and
>freezing tempatures
>day after day of 2 hours of sleep

I can feel the pain here, George. This was part of what I was conveying in an
earlier post. We have a local company here who for years has been through all
these trials and tribulations...spending close to $1M on gear, etc. Now they
are the top sound company in the area. But you know what..not one person on
staff can mix a live show..disgusting. All of this stuff is necessary to have a
live sound company but very little of it has anything to do with mixing. Plenty
of guys on big tours don't drive the trucks. I know a ton of small local guys
that fit Roger's description..have competant small rigs, very organized,
reliable, quick setup and teardown, nice to the talent, bands love them but I
still walk into shows and scratch my head. "Didn't we go through this a few
month's ago when I spent 2 hours explaining why you have to adjust the drum
gates at every show?...why if you patch in a compressor on the submix it
doesn't effect the channel monitor sends and yes you have to adjust the
threshold or it doesn't do anything?..etc..etc. Luckily my one friend sees me
come in..tells me what's patched where and steps out of the way..and hopefully
learns a little each time.
I've been on both sides of the fence on this one. Money is the main problem
here..the local music businesses have regressed finacially for many reasons
that I will not discuss here.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>n the process of becoming a live sound pro I have had to master
>ac power distro
>lighting systems
>structural engineering in regard to rigging
>obtain a cdl
>accounting(my personal weakest skill)
>fire saftey
>stage building
>carpentry
>component level troublshooting and repair
>metal working
>travel agency type tour planning
>salesmanship
>and hundreds of more non audio related skill sets as well as be
>familiar with the layout and functionality of dozens of desks and
>speaker systems
>I have to understand acoustics in order to select and properly deploy a
>sound system for smooth coverage in any venue often in pouring rain and
>freezing tempatures
>day after day of 2 hours of sleep

I can feel the pain here, George. This was part of what I was conveying in an
earlier post. We have a local company here who for years has been through all
these trials and tribulations...spending close to $1M on gear, etc. Now they
are the top sound company in the area. But you know what..not one person on
staff can mix a live show..disgusting. All of this stuff is necessary to have a
live sound company but very little of it has anything to do with mixing. Plenty
of guys on big tours don't drive the trucks. I know a ton of small local guys
that fit Roger's description..have competant small rigs, very organized,
reliable, quick setup and teardown, nice to the talent, bands love them but I
still walk into shows and scratch my head. "Didn't we go through this a few
month's ago when I spent 2 hours explaining why you have to adjust the drum
gates at every show?...why if you patch in a compressor on the submix it
doesn't effect the channel monitor sends and yes you have to adjust the
threshold or it doesn't do anything?..etc..etc. Luckily my one friend sees me
come in..tells me what's patched where and steps out of the way..and hopefully
learns a little each time.
I've been on both sides of the fence on this one. Money is the main problem
here..the local music businesses have regressed finacially for many reasons
that I will not discuss here.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[George Gleason]

"LeBaron & Alrich" > wrote in message
...
> George wrote:
>
> > I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
> > can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
> > a recording professional
>
> Uhhh, George? I know several folks who dropped a ****ant's pocket change
> on an SR24, a ****load of 57's and 58's, and some Peavey crap and call
> themselves SR pros. It ain't any different, except that those guys each
> have a bigger flashlight than I carry.
>
It is exactly the same and I do not defend or support these(live sound)
jokers for they are often selling this as pro these guys are not pros
and they are not the bulk of all live sound nor are they for the most part
failed musos or recording guys
and I guess I expect a bit too much to think we are talking of pros(as in
professional standards and way of doing business) when haveing discussions
with other industry lifers
BTW will you be at AES monday?
if so can I get you a 8 dollar cup of coffee and meet and greet?

[George Gleason]

"LeBaron & Alrich" > wrote in message
...
> George wrote:
>
> > I takes years and years of education and practice to mix live where you
> > can drop 1200.00 on a daw and a couple of chinese mics and call youreslf
> > a recording professional
>
> Uhhh, George? I know several folks who dropped a ****ant's pocket change
> on an SR24, a ****load of 57's and 58's, and some Peavey crap and call
> themselves SR pros. It ain't any different, except that those guys each
> have a bigger flashlight than I carry.
>
It is exactly the same and I do not defend or support these(live sound)
jokers for they are often selling this as pro these guys are not pros
and they are not the bulk of all live sound nor are they for the most part
failed musos or recording guys
and I guess I expect a bit too much to think we are talking of pros(as in
professional standards and way of doing business) when haveing discussions
with other industry lifers
BTW will you be at AES monday?
if so can I get you a 8 dollar cup of coffee and meet and greet?

[Yuri T.]

Oh yeah I forget a couple other stressors in live sound. Dealing with
the weenie who's shoulder surfing your mix telling you how bad the mix
sounds while telling you how it sounded in his studio. At the same
time the glass topped, brick walled, concrete floored venue and the
marshall double stack are making vocal intelligibilty an absolute pipe
dream yet you doggedly persue it. The bumper sticker on the rack
reads...

"I"M NOT DEAF, I"M IGNORING YOU!"

[Yuri T.]

Oh yeah I forget a couple other stressors in live sound. Dealing with
the weenie who's shoulder surfing your mix telling you how bad the mix
sounds while telling you how it sounded in his studio. At the same
time the glass topped, brick walled, concrete floored venue and the
marshall double stack are making vocal intelligibilty an absolute pipe
dream yet you doggedly persue it. The bumper sticker on the rack
reads...

"I"M NOT DEAF, I"M IGNORING YOU!"

[Blind Joni]

>I'll be the first to admit I
>> was not very good at live sound, but it was not for lack of
>> understanding of audio principles.
>>
>maybe it was your people skills
>or rather the lack of them
>George

I started a post on this and thought better of it...however this may be a
consideration.:)


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>I'll be the first to admit I
>> was not very good at live sound, but it was not for lack of
>> understanding of audio principles.
>>
>maybe it was your people skills
>or rather the lack of them
>George

I started a post on this and thought better of it...however this may be a
consideration.:)


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[[email protected]]

On 2003-10-09 (ScottDorsey) said:
>>uneducated, unskilled, unqualified dumbasses in both ends of the
>pool. The problem is that the dumbass recording guys make bad
>recordings that people generally don't hear.
>But EVERYBODY hears the dumbass live sound guys. ALL the time.
>Please make it stop.
THere you have it folks. THese weekend warrior live sound doofuses
torture ears every day, featuring kick drum and bad sounding mush at
your local saloon and at the local gig in the park where the event
organizers went to the bargain basement for the sound reinforcement.

sOme of us out here try to do good work, and the one thing we try to
do when we're brought these lowball shows in the park thing is
convince the organizers to hire adequate contractors to provide the
service. You do and then you've got some weekend warrior local band
that wonders why we won't let their knob twiddler at the mixing desk.

I worked with one fellow at a club over in Mandeville Louisiana with a
band I don't play with any longer because the band has no concept of
how to achieve a good sound with or without a guy at foh. YEs this
fellow was stuck with the Mackie board and the club's system, which
was Peavey amps and cabs. iN fact I offered the guy use of my RNC
compressor but he used his DBX units wher appropriate and needed.

Halfway through the show I heard the band's guitar man complain that
the foh op didn't even have him turned up. HIS little 20 watt amp was
pointed right at the vocal mics however so it was unnecessary. I was
using a small crown amp and two JBL cabs with a 15 and a tweet, no
horn, one either side of the stage to balance my sound for the people.
sEems that one of my cabs was blowing into the bassist's vocal mic as
he wasn't front line (three so-called lead vocalists) and when the
sound man said something I offered to aim the cabinet a little
differently. THis surprised him as he wasn't used to hearing
cooperative noises from musos. I explained to him that I've been a
live sound guy as long as I've been a musician almost and we're
supposed to work as a team to achieve good results for the paying
punters. At the end of the night he thanked me and we discussed the
guitar god's insistence that he was cool and the foh guy full of
excrement. oUr foh op did a good j ob with the gear he had and with
the handicaps he had still presented a good balanced sound to the
audience. My lady's been around enough to know good sound when she
hears it and she was quite impressed.

Sadly to say this guy's the exception and not the rule.

rEgards,



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[[email protected]]

On 2003-10-09 (ScottDorsey) said:
>>uneducated, unskilled, unqualified dumbasses in both ends of the
>pool. The problem is that the dumbass recording guys make bad
>recordings that people generally don't hear.
>But EVERYBODY hears the dumbass live sound guys. ALL the time.
>Please make it stop.
THere you have it folks. THese weekend warrior live sound doofuses
torture ears every day, featuring kick drum and bad sounding mush at
your local saloon and at the local gig in the park where the event
organizers went to the bargain basement for the sound reinforcement.

sOme of us out here try to do good work, and the one thing we try to
do when we're brought these lowball shows in the park thing is
convince the organizers to hire adequate contractors to provide the
service. You do and then you've got some weekend warrior local band
that wonders why we won't let their knob twiddler at the mixing desk.

I worked with one fellow at a club over in Mandeville Louisiana with a
band I don't play with any longer because the band has no concept of
how to achieve a good sound with or without a guy at foh. YEs this
fellow was stuck with the Mackie board and the club's system, which
was Peavey amps and cabs. iN fact I offered the guy use of my RNC
compressor but he used his DBX units wher appropriate and needed.

Halfway through the show I heard the band's guitar man complain that
the foh op didn't even have him turned up. HIS little 20 watt amp was
pointed right at the vocal mics however so it was unnecessary. I was
using a small crown amp and two JBL cabs with a 15 and a tweet, no
horn, one either side of the stage to balance my sound for the people.
sEems that one of my cabs was blowing into the bassist's vocal mic as
he wasn't front line (three so-called lead vocalists) and when the
sound man said something I offered to aim the cabinet a little
differently. THis surprised him as he wasn't used to hearing
cooperative noises from musos. I explained to him that I've been a
live sound guy as long as I've been a musician almost and we're
supposed to work as a team to achieve good results for the paying
punters. At the end of the night he thanked me and we discussed the
guitar god's insistence that he was cool and the foh guy full of
excrement. oUr foh op did a good j ob with the gear he had and with
the handicaps he had still presented a good balanced sound to the
audience. My lady's been around enough to know good sound when she
hears it and she was quite impressed.

Sadly to say this guy's the exception and not the rule.

rEgards,



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[George]

would that be DALBEC?
never have I been subjected to bad sound than one night at the Troy
music hall and Norman Blake
No wait I take that back
Norman got a pile of bricks for speakers and a shovel of gravel
supplied by Raven sound at last years Mayville Blueggrassfest
so there definatly are real Hacks working at respectable levels in live
sound
I am not sure how they get work but I often get thier work next time
around
George

[George]

would that be DALBEC?
never have I been subjected to bad sound than one night at the Troy
music hall and Norman Blake
No wait I take that back
Norman got a pile of bricks for speakers and a shovel of gravel
supplied by Raven sound at last years Mayville Blueggrassfest
so there definatly are real Hacks working at respectable levels in live
sound
I am not sure how they get work but I often get thier work next time
around
George

[Blind Joni]

>would that be DALBEC?

No..worse..I can't talk about it online..email me for details.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>would that be DALBEC?

No..worse..I can't talk about it online..email me for details.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Scott Dorsey]

Blind Joni > wrote:
>>would that be DALBEC?
>
>No..worse..I can't talk about it online..email me for details.

I worked on a rig from Dick Dalbec and was actually pretty pleased with
it. Considering how bad the room was, I was surprised what he was able
to get out of it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Blind Joni > wrote:
>>would that be DALBEC?
>
>No..worse..I can't talk about it online..email me for details.

I worked on a rig from Dick Dalbec and was actually pretty pleased with
it. Considering how bad the room was, I was surprised what he was able
to get out of it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[George Gleason]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Blind Joni > wrote:
> >>would that be DALBEC?
> >
> >No..worse..I can't talk about it online..email me for details.
>
> I worked on a rig from Dick Dalbec and was actually pretty pleased with
> it. Considering how bad the room was, I was surprised what he was able
> to get out of it.
> --scott
>

was not his speakers but his deployment
left two balconys with no direct sound
all we got in the balconys was revebed mud from the floor speakers
I am sure if you were fortunate to have a seat within the speaker pattern
the sound was acceptable
but 3/4 of the room was not within the pattern of any speaker
George

[George Gleason]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Blind Joni > wrote:
> >>would that be DALBEC?
> >
> >No..worse..I can't talk about it online..email me for details.
>
> I worked on a rig from Dick Dalbec and was actually pretty pleased with
> it. Considering how bad the room was, I was surprised what he was able
> to get out of it.
> --scott
>

was not his speakers but his deployment
left two balconys with no direct sound
all we got in the balconys was revebed mud from the floor speakers
I am sure if you were fortunate to have a seat within the speaker pattern
the sound was acceptable
but 3/4 of the room was not within the pattern of any speaker
George

[ScotFraser]

<< would that be DALBEC?
never have I been subjected to bad sound than one night at the Troy
music hall and Norman Blake >>

I forget the sound company I've dealt with at Troy, but I'm told they get the
gig because of a family connection. There is a competent sound company in Troy
with serious equipment who do a good job, but they don't have the connection
there. Part of it, I think, is because the management at Troy are convinced
they have the most wonderful acoustic venue in North America & thus why should
sound reinforcement be necessary, at least with the chamber group I tour with.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< would that be DALBEC?
never have I been subjected to bad sound than one night at the Troy
music hall and Norman Blake >>

I forget the sound company I've dealt with at Troy, but I'm told they get the
gig because of a family connection. There is a competent sound company in Troy
with serious equipment who do a good job, but they don't have the connection
there. Part of it, I think, is because the management at Troy are convinced
they have the most wonderful acoustic venue in North America & thus why should
sound reinforcement be necessary, at least with the chamber group I tour with.

Scott Fraser

[Blind Joni]

>I worked on a rig from Dick Dalbec and was actually pretty pleased with
>it. Considering how bad the room was, I was surprised what he was able
>to get out of it.

Scott, what was the gig?..I think you were here in Albany,NY within the last
year and I missed you.I have many Dick stories.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>I worked on a rig from Dick Dalbec and was actually pretty pleased with
>it. Considering how bad the room was, I was surprised what he was able
>to get out of it.

Scott, what was the gig?..I think you were here in Albany,NY within the last
year and I missed you.I have many Dick stories.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>I forget the sound company I've dealt with at Troy, but I'm told they get the
>gig because of a family connection. There is a competent sound company in
>Troy
>with serious equipment who do a good job, but they don't have the connection
>there. Part of it, I think, is because the management at Troy are convinced
>they have the most wonderful acoustic venue in North America & thus why
>should
>sound reinforcement be necessary, at least with the chamber group I tour
>with.

It's this and more. I could get into a long disertation on the political payola
and nepotism that has turned the sound reinforcment biz around here into a
Barnum and Bailey side show. It would be too long to type but I would answer
any phone calls if anyone would like to hear a funny but sad tale.

518-961-0069..anytime between 10AM and 2AM EST.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>I forget the sound company I've dealt with at Troy, but I'm told they get the
>gig because of a family connection. There is a competent sound company in
>Troy
>with serious equipment who do a good job, but they don't have the connection
>there. Part of it, I think, is because the management at Troy are convinced
>they have the most wonderful acoustic venue in North America & thus why
>should
>sound reinforcement be necessary, at least with the chamber group I tour
>with.

It's this and more. I could get into a long disertation on the political payola
and nepotism that has turned the sound reinforcment biz around here into a
Barnum and Bailey side show. It would be too long to type but I would answer
any phone calls if anyone would like to hear a funny but sad tale.

518-961-0069..anytime between 10AM and 2AM EST.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Blind Joni > wrote:

> I have many Dick stories.



I don't really need to say anything here.


ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Blind Joni > wrote:

> I have many Dick stories.



I don't really need to say anything here.


ulysses

[Blind Joni]

> I have many Dick stories.
>
>
>
>I don't really need to say anything here.

LOL!! Jokes on me!!

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637