Building a new shortwave tube radio [Archive]

Patrick Turner

November 11th 11, 09:42 AM

On Nov 11, 4:52*pm, wrote:
> *With the survivalist market as well as the DIYers who would build a
> kit I have given thought to the idea of building a new tube shortwave
> receiver as a usable, practical set.

Most people who are into radio might think you are irrational, because
good short wave reception with tubes has been done by major
manufacturers of the past rather better than you can ever imagine to
achieve, unless you have far greater intelligence than their leading
chief designers wo passed lots of exams and universities and had
passed the test of being jolly good fellows in the real world of
private enterprise employment and marketing activities with the now
mentioned Racal, and Hammlund, Hallicrafters et all, just to name a
few.

> *That means no regens, no DC bull****,

Regenerative boost I can understand, but "DC bull****" Such a term
does not appear in any electronic books written prior to 1960 when
tubed radio was regarded as the best mature technology for SW
reception.

> and no plug in coils. It must
> have production grade RF and IF coils, a bandswitch, and require
> alignment. If sold as a kit the builder will need a RF generator and a
> scope (or a spec an or CSM with a track gen).

You must be dreamin'. Its not clear at all what you want. Do you wanna
make a radio from scratch, or do ya wanna buy a kit made by some
sucker who is likely to find he'll sell 2 kits over 10 years, and get
a lousy price from YOU?

If ya wanna build just ONE HF receiver for you only, then there's
plenty of old books on making radios, just follow what you read in the
books, de-bug all what you build, as all the manufacturers have done
before you.
What happens first though? Do you die in ten years leaving behind a
mess to clean up and no working radio, or you get a working radio in 3
months, fairly well perfected, and live for 9 years and 9 mths to
enjoy it?

> *It should use off the shelf parts even if those shelves are bare, as
> it is better to copy an existing item than design from scratch. I
> would clone the Eddystone dial mechanism and the bandswitch and coils
> from some Hallicrafters or Hammarlund set, they could be sold as
> desperately needed replacement spares for the old sets too.

Ah, just WHO is going to clone anything from the past and make any
money?

> use a seeing eye tube mounted in a hole in the dial as opposed to a
> meter movement, again, getting a run of new tubes made is possible if
> you are buying several thousand. There are some surplus that could be
> used if really needed too.

Your dreamin again. Its totally stupid to expect anyone might sell
thousands of NEW made copies of 1960 SW radios sets without conducting
a thorough market feasibility study. The COMPETION for what you
propose now has become so overwhelming that nobody in their right mind
would consider having say 10,000 new 6BA6, 6BE6 etc manufactured for a
production run of thousands of SW sets.

Before asking us silly questions, have you :-
1. Learnt all about SW tube radio, 2. Drawn up a probable, or
provisional parts list, 3. spent weeks chasing quotes for parts
exactly as yo specifiy, 4, Generally put in a whole lot of work so far
without relying on any of us, who, IMHO, will conclude you are on a
goose chase.

> *I would use a separate power supply and speaker for several reasons.

Well of course, but you'll die when you work out the cost of
production for your project is 100 times what people now pay for SW
reception with a whole pile of features you'll probably not want to
include.
>
> *I would have the radio take in B+ and heater voltage and put out 600
> ohm +4 audio. A regular supply could be used at home or car battery
> and a switchmode brick for B+. A headphone jack would be supplied off
> this tube.
>
> *The set should cover 500 kHz to 30 MHz, AM, SSB and CW, with a
> product detector of course. A 455 kHz IF is needed so as to use common
> mechanical or crystal filters, which are optional. There should also
> be a 455 kHz IF out for an external synchronous detector.

All those features have already been well sorted out by old makers.

But there was a magazine called Electronics Australia which has now
been swallowed up by 'Silicon Chip' but they have a CD with the old
magazines monthly output from 1939 to 1965.
http://shop.siliconchip.com.au/radio-tv-and-hobbies-april-1939-to-march-1965-1.html

Perhaps within that magazine you'll find full articles about building
good SW radios with tubes which were second to none.

Hardly any of the parts used are now available, but hey, yo issa
dreamer, and you'll just dream them all up.
Reality is that you might spend years building such a set, at a
glacial rate of 1 tube stage per 3 months. My bet is that of the maybe
200 blokes who attempted to build the radios which are so well
described in the magazine, maybe 10 finished a set to a respectable
standard. Magazines became viable, because dreamers bought them.
Mostly do-little nerds as I recall. What's so rivettingly interesting
about SW reception? What form of media entertainament is worth
listening to on SW? What is available on SW which ain't available
elsewhere, apart from a pile of noise, poor audio, whistles, fade
outs, and old amateur blokes droning on and on about their latest
hospital operations? New York police maybe?

I regularly restore old radios. Last job was a 1947 Healing floor
standing 5 band AM radio for the fashionable Bling-Blang generation of
1947, ie, my parents generation. It has a 6J8 mixer plus 6U7 IF, and
is chockoblock with coils and special wafer switches but it does give
remarkably good reception of Radio America of China Calling even in
daytime, with a long wire antenna taken out to a nearby tree. Anyway,
I put in about 130 hours fixin up the old banger, and the one section
I didn't alter at all was the 3 band SW section. Not much alignment
was needed to maximise performance. Local MW was changed to ferrite
rod antenna replacing the horrible high impedance RF input tranny
which worked fine before the present which is riddled with hum
imposing itself on many incoming signals in the electro static portion
of the electromagnetic waves. The ferrite rod reacts to the magnetic
part of the incoming wave which is not affected by compact fluorescent
lamps et all.

But now we have local Digital Radio Broadcasting now all based on
frequencies up around 250Mhz. The local Australian Broadcasting
Commission, or ABC, has just begun trials here for broadcasting of all
they have on MW, 2 stations, and all they have on FM, another 2
stations, on digital. Don't ask me how DAB works. I can't find any
schematics of concise explanations.

So, listeners who have loved their old tubed radio set because it
carried the MW local stations now don't need to use their tubed set,
and can access the old AM station program noise free and with full
audio BW with hi-fi specs from their tiny little box sets for DAB.

Now sometimes ppl with radios capable of SW might try surfing the
bands, but now DAB is here ppl won't be able to surf these SW bands,
but then who ever did ?

There were 101 different ideas put forward for providing a decent
tubed SW radio which never saw commercial development and production,
such as the early synchrodyne. The superhet was deemed to be the best.
Racal had 3 mixers, and was remarkably stable for an old banger but
now with digtally generated oscillator F and all that chipery stuff
and computer controlled stuff, stablity is far better now. Wanna copy
a Yeasu?

If I wanted to build a 6 band SW radio now I think I might have 6 j-
fet RF amp stages well controlled by AVC, then 6 j-fets for
oscillators, and thus not need a special made bandswitch, except some
generic easy to buy wafer switch from Farnells with 6 positions. Mixer
could be one of many options, maybe more than one, to minimise
switching of the IF output. With such cheap small devices with high gm
and low noise, the cost is far less than a complex switch and just two
tubes to work on all bands. But all this is so easy to say, and such
things are easier said than done, and succes relies on YOU. And there
are very few ppl here who are heavily into farnarkling with HF radios,
so there are not many brains here to be picked, or if you do try,
you'll probably get 101 suggestions all requiring maybe years to
perfect and after that you still can't equal the best old sets.
I heard about a bloke who built a CD player using just generic opamps.
It took so long......

> Any other comments?

But good luck with you quest. You'll definately need +60dB of that.

Patrick Turner.

Geoffrey S. Mendelson

November 11th 11, 12:29 PM

Patrick Turner wrote:
> But good luck with you quest. You'll definately need +60dB of that.

Patrick, I too was going to write something like that, but you did far
better than I could.

The point that was buried in his original posting was that he is building
an "EMP-PROOF" radio to sell to the survivalist market.

Personally I think it is a fools errand, you can't build a modern radio
similar to the high performing ones of the past at a cost anyone will pay,
since in comparison, you can buy any one of the many old radios that will do,
pay a professional to refurbish and align it, and buy several lifetimes worth
of spare parts for far less.

Not only that but radio collecting is a well known and liked hobby, nobody is
going to take a second look at that old transoceanic on your shelf, but
many would flip out seeing any firearm.

If you are paranoid, you an even find stores in many places where you can buy
a refurbished radio for cash and leave a fake name and address.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

Arny Krueger[_4_]

November 11th 11, 12:56 PM

> wrote in message
...
> With the survivalist market as well as the DIYers who would build a
> kit I have given thought to the idea of building a new tube shortwave
> receiver as a usable, practical set.

I can't imagine that any rational survivalist would waste power running
tubed electronics. I guess you could hype the EMP issue, but even that can
be handled better with SS.

Dave

November 11th 11, 01:42 PM

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:52:48 -0800, rrusston wrote:
> the bandswitch and coils from
> some Hallicrafters or Hammarlund set,

Anyone who'd use the old Halli bandswitch has never had to fix a Halli
bandswitch.

The trouble with valve radios is they use lots of electricity.

Lord Valve

November 11th 11, 02:42 PM

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

> Patrick Turner wrote:
> > But good luck with you quest. You'll definately need +60dB of that.
>
> Patrick, I too was going to write something like that, but you did far
> better than I could.
>
> The point that was buried in his original posting was that he is building
> an "EMP-PROOF" radio to sell to the survivalist market.

SS sets are cheap and easily obtainable.

Even a Happy Harry Home-owner type can cheaply build a
small Faraday cage to keep one in, if anticipating an EMP.

> Personally I think it is a fools errand, you can't build a modern radio
> similar to the high performing ones of the past at a cost anyone will pay,
> since in comparison, you can buy any one of the many old radios that will do,
> pay a professional to refurbish and align it, and buy several lifetimes worth
> of spare parts for far less.

You'd better invest in a generator and a supply of petrol, too...

> Not only that but radio collecting is a well known and liked hobby, nobody is
> going to take a second look at that old transoceanic on your shelf, but
> many would flip out seeing any firearm.

Your friends are all hoplophobes?

Why would anyone "flip out" when seeing a firearm?
Hell, I have one in my pocket right now, and I can see
two more from where I'm sitting. They don't look all
that spooky to me.

> If you are paranoid, you an even find stores in many places where you can buy
> a refurbished radio for cash and leave a fake name and address.

Huh?

Where are you posting from? Why would anyone need to
leave his name and address - fake or otherwise - when
purchasing a radio?

Got guns?

Lord Valve
American - so far

D. Peter Maus

November 11th 11, 04:45 PM

On 11/11/11 08:42 , Lord Valve wrote:

>> If you are paranoid, you an even find stores in many places where you can buy
>> a refurbished radio for cash and leave a fake name and address.
>
> Huh?
>
> Where are you posting from? Why would anyone need to
> leave his name and address - fake or otherwise - when
> purchasing a radio?

Because cash transactions are coming under the scrutiny of
authority, today. Louisiana just became the most recent state to
require identity of purchaser in a cash transaction or a ban on the
cash transaction. Even a used purchase from a flea market or a
garage sale.

Other states are currently debating this provision.

D. Peter Maus

November 11th 11, 04:57 PM

On 11/11/11 24:15 , wrote:
> On Nov 11, 12:04 am, David >
> wrote:
>> My guess is that the cost you would have to charge to recoup the time
>> and effort you put together in coming up with such a design would end
>> up making such a set *much* more expensive than just going to a ham
>> fest, buying a Hammarlund in good shape, and fixing it up. Or even
>> paying someone else to fix it up.
>
> I already have a R-390, two Hammarlunds and a Racal....I wanted to
> manufacture something. Or at least think about it.

Certainly worth thinking about.

Maybe worth doing. But consider:

Tubes are getting harder to come buy. Not that they can't be had.
And after an EMP, they're likely to be as available as working SS
devices. But there are inherent issues with Tubes. One is that they
use a LOT of precious energy, that in a survival mode situation is
best conserved for other applications, or longer listening. Another
is that voltages are much higher than those that can be recovered
after or during a crisis with ease. Low voltage, low current devices
are going to be more desirable when energy is in short supply.

But, more importantly, tube receivers aren't necessarily less
prone to damage by EMP than SS receivers. In fact, there is
empirical evidence to suggest that SS receivers can be made to
survive an EMP where a tube receiver will not.

Your best options, then, would include building a reasonably high
performance receiver with readily available common parts, and take
measures, such as a Faraday cage, and effective grounding/input
protection measures, to render your station if not immune, then more
resistant to stray or induced hostile voltages.

Now, you have a practical, and manufacturable, product.

Michael Black[_2_]

November 11th 11, 05:14 PM

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011, wrote:

> With the survivalist market as well as the DIYers who would build a
> kit I have given thought to the idea of building a new tube shortwave
> receiver as a usable, practical set.
>
But since you never specify why it should use tubes, you sound like a
kook.

I assume you are thinking tubes so they won't be damaged by EMP. But you
have to consider if that's a real reality, or some fantasy. There are
loads of reasons why someone might want to be prepared, without coming
close to a nuclear blast. But those other reasons might much rather have
a battery operated radio rather than the high current drain of tubes.

I can stockpile batteries for a solid state shortwave receiver, I can keep
some larger batteries on hand as an external supply, I could run a low
current receiver off a solar panel, there are lots of options. But once
you start drawing current to heat those tube filaments, you are really
stuck. Yes, you can use an inverter off a car battery, but then have to
keep charging the battery. Note that in the old days, running tube
equipment in the car, you mostly had the car running, so there was current
coming from the alternator, rather than just relying on the battery.

> That means no regens, no DC bull****, and no plug in coils. It must
> have production grade RF and IF coils, a bandswitch, and require
> alignment. If sold as a kit the builder will need a RF generator and a
> scope (or a spec an or CSM with a track gen).
>
Why? You really havent' specified what you want, you are then jumping
into fine details. For emergencies, it may be a really useful choice. But
you are being wishy washy in your criteria, so who knows. A regen is
lousy for regular reception at this point in time.

No, you don't want a direct conversion receiver, since those are best for
CW and SSB, not great for straight AM (which presumably is your target).
But once can get pretty fancy with DC receivers, even including proper
reception of AM. It will get more complicated, but proper design requires
looking at multiple possibilities, and since every design will be a
tradeoff, you need to take off your blinders and look at possibilities
before deciding something is more suitable.

Note that the regen is "direct conversion", at least once you kick it into
oscillation. And there were various designs of "direct conversion" in the
earlier days of radio, though not called "direct conversion". Even in
1961, there was a tube based direct conversion receiver in QST.

The early wave of direct conversion solid state receivers often
compromised. They'd be direct conversion on one band (or maybe not at
all) and then a converter ahead of it, which made it a superheterodyne
receiver, albeit with no IF selectivity. There are some points in that
favor.

Indeed, many a good receiver was made with a single conversion receiver
tuning a fixed band, and then converters ahead of it (lots of homebrew
receivers, but also classics like the Collins receivers). That meant the
local oscillator could run at a low and fixed frequency, rather than a
wide segment (traditional single conversion to 455KHz receivers had about
a 2:1 tuning range on each band), so you can have good calibration, and
good tuning, the oscillator running at a low frequency and not needing to
be switched in frequency from band to band (problems in that alone). The
problem was that it meant a crystal for every segment you wanted to tune
(got around initially by choosing which segments, nobody says you have to
have all 30Mhz of the shortwave band), though later synthesizers fixed
that. Of course, there was also the Wadley loop that sort of synthesized
the first oscillator, at the cost of an extra mixer and complicated
circuitry.

For that matter, one popular method of getting a shortwaver receiver was
to get a car radio (they often had better selectivity, and better image
rejection along with better sensitivity, plus good tuning) and put a
converter or converters ahead of it, getting double conversion. Leave the
bulk of the construction to the car radio manufacturers and just build the
converter, a relatively simple task. This is now harder if you can't find
a car radio with analog tuning, since the 10KHz steps of a synthesized car
radio is not the 5KHz that shortwave broadcasters use (and even 5KHz is
too wide for the ham bands).

Note also that in the thirties there were the "supergainers", regen
receivers with converters ahead of them (or looked at differently,
superhets with regen receivers as the IF), a fusion that provided some
advantages. Even in the solid state era you'd see those in the ham
magazines, sometimes people even putting crystal filters before the regen
detector.

No plug in coils? Then again you haven't stated your prime criteria (no
plug in coils in not criteria, it's the result of some criteria you
haven't specified. In the old days, the bandswitch often was a key
problem in a multiband radio. It had to switch LC circuits at
increasingly high frequencies. The switch often got in the way, and
physical layout was determined by the bandswitch (though some companies
bult the bandswitch for the receiver, so the layout could be better).
Coils have a simplicity, though of course that doesn't include fast
bandswitching. The HRO used plug in coils right up till the point of
solid state, and many thought that line was a great receiver. All those
recievers with converters ahead of them meant one could plug in a
converter per band, rather than switch LC circuits. More expensive, but
if you use transistors the solid state devices dont' add much to the cost,
unlike tubes that were costly and bulky.

Your fantasy designing has overlooked the home builder's need to align the
receiver. Fixated on the way things used to be, you havent' considered
that if you spend the money differently, it may make user alignment
simpler.

> It should use off the shelf parts even if those shelves are bare, as
> it is better to copy an existing item than design from scratch. I
> would clone the Eddystone dial mechanism and the bandswitch and coils
> from some Hallicrafters or Hammarlund set, they could be sold as
> desperately needed replacement spares for the old sets too. I would
> use a seeing eye tube mounted in a hole in the dial as opposed to a
> meter movement, again, getting a run of new tubes made is possible if
> you are buying several thousand. There are some surplus that could be
> used if really needed too.
>
YOu want to construct a fifty year old receiver. There are virtually no
off the shelf parts left for those. There aren't shelfs or local radio
stores to sell those parts.

You havne't made the tradeoff between old and new. That crummy Eton hand
held shortwave receiver I got at a garage sale in September for 2.00 is no
better than the junk solid state Hallicrafters S-120A receiver I spent $80
for in the summer of 1971. But, it uses an IC to provide a frequency
counter, which means one can actually have good frequency readout, without
all kinds of expensive dials and calibration. The IC is dirt cheap, the
Eddystone dial if it was still being made today would be terribly
expensive. The dial seems simpler, but this is a case of complication
making the overall design far simpler. Oddly, that hand held Eton radio
does take more advantage of having a frequency counter on board, they
break up the tuning into smaller segments (since they don't have to
calibrate a dial, or provide space for a whole bunch of bands, why not?)
which means the simple tuning pot is not too obnoxious.

> I would use a separate power supply and speaker for several reasons.
> I would have the radio take in B+ and heater voltage and put out 600
> ohm +4 audio. A regular supply could be used at home or car battery
> and a switchmode brick for B+. A headphone jack would be supplied off
> this tube.
>
A solid state receiver would run off a battery, and the built in supply
wouldn't be a burden when unused. If you're really stuck with tubes, why
not get original, wind your own transformer, then have the AC coming from
the wall turned into DC and an oscillator that feeds the transformer.
Running at a higher frequency, the transformer can be smaller. But, done
right, you can have another oscillator that runs off 12vdc, and that feeds
a diffeent winding of the transformer, so you've got your dual mode power
supply without making two supplies. You haven't throught this through, you
haven't done nearly enough wide thinking. You are just trying to
duplicate the past, without any great reason for it.

> The set should cover 500 kHz to 30 MHz, AM, SSB and CW, with a
> product detector of course. A 455 kHz IF is needed so as to use common
> mechanical or crystal filters, which are optional. There should also
> be a 455 kHz IF out for an external synchronous detector.

Your bias is there. For at least fifty years one could get good
selectivity in the shortwave frequencies, initially down around 2Mhz but
then 9MHz became kind of standard. Even tube receivers were built with
such "high" IFs. Right away you get rid of the problem of image
rejection, with such a high IF the front end selectivity is lessened
(especially for the higher bands). Alignment is simplified, indeed a
single conversion receiver with a 9Mhz IF no longer has to gang the local
oscillator tuning with the front end tuning, there's no longer a problem
of an image 910KHz away (I've seen reviews for single conversion 455KHz
low end receivers from the old days, I remember one said "we couldnt' tell
which was the image and which was the real signal, they were of equal
strength"). You lose some segment around the IF frequency, but chosen
properly you won't miss much. Of course, 9MHz IF filters are more
expensive than 455KHz ceramic filters (which is what many receivers use),
which can then be a problem if you want multiple bandwidths. One way to
get around that is to go with a high IF and then a low IF, though not
without tradeoffs. Note that mechanical filters are not inexpensive, that
is only the case if one finds one on the used or surplus market. Crystal
filters at 455KHz were commonly single crystals, a good peak but not so
great skirt selectivity, and they'd provide multiple bandwidths by loading
the crystal down. One might as well go with a higher IF and make ladder
crystal filters, one for SSB and another for AM.

Or put a phasing system at 9MHz, with a relatively wide (and cheap)
crystal filter ahead of it (10.7MHz may then be better, it's not a common
frequency for narrow bandwidth filters but is common for narrow FM
bandwidth filters). A good phasing system will knock out the unwanted
sideband, and audio selectivity will be effective. Done properly, it can
be synchronized to the incoming signal for AM reception.

Or use a high IF and then 455KHz. This has an advantage that you can add
some tuning to the second conversion oscillator, making it fine tuning.
Some portable shortwave receivers used this scheme before the move to
higher first IFs. Indeed, with a synthesized oscillator (well not if you
still want tubes), broad steps make it simpler to design and build, and
having a fine tuning on the second conversion oscillator then fills in
between steps.

Go back and figure out your design criteria. Who will want this? What's
the point? A practical receiver for now is different from the nostalgia
of the old days. Simple to build may mean a simple receiver, or it may
mean adding complication in order for the end builder to have little
problem assemblying it or aligning it. Adding extra stages may add cost,
but may some other point simpler.

And don't assume single conversion to 455KHz receivers were the ultimate
in design. They weren't, they were tradeoffs and some got around problems
by making them more complicated, others lived with the problems.

Michael

>
> Any other comments?
>

m II

November 11th 11, 05:34 PM

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D. Peter Maus wrote:

>> Where are you posting from? Why would anyone need to
>> leave his name and address - fake or otherwise - when
>> purchasing a radio?
>
>
> Because cash transactions are coming under the scrutiny of authority,
> today. Louisiana just became the most recent state to require identity
> of purchaser in a cash transaction or a ban on the cash transaction.
> Even a used purchase from a flea market or a garage sale.
>
> Other states are currently debating this provision.

It's for the benefit of the *children*.

Many contagious diseases are spread by filthy money and the Brothels
just aren't sterilizing the bills like they used to. The Cocaine pushers
are far better in this respect, as they get their clients to ingest any
product left on the money.

Only anti-American terrorists use cash for purchases.

Next week I will be proposing a new 'Sterility' law which will require
all canned good to be opened for examination before being placed on the
store shelves.

Then, the mandatory installation nation wide of surveillance cameras in
the bathrooms of the Elderly. They fall a lot and the cameras would
assure a swift response by medical teams.

*SAFETY* is paramount.

mike
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John Smith[_5_]

November 11th 11, 06:07 PM

On 11/10/2011 9:52 PM, wrote:
> With the survivalist market as well as the DIYers who would build a
> kit I have given thought to the idea of building a new tube shortwave
> receiver as a usable, practical set.
>
> That means no regens, no DC bull****, and no plug in coils. It must
> have production grade RF and IF coils, a bandswitch, and require
> alignment. If sold as a kit the builder will need a RF generator and a
> scope (or a spec an or CSM with a track gen).
>
> It should use off the shelf parts even if those shelves are bare, as
> it is better to copy an existing item than design from scratch. I
> would clone the Eddystone dial mechanism and the bandswitch and coils
> from some Hallicrafters or Hammarlund set, they could be sold as
> desperately needed replacement spares for the old sets too. I would
> use a seeing eye tube mounted in a hole in the dial as opposed to a
> meter movement, again, getting a run of new tubes made is possible if
> you are buying several thousand. There are some surplus that could be
> used if really needed too.
>
> I would use a separate power supply and speaker for several reasons.
>
> I would have the radio take in B+ and heater voltage and put out 600
> ohm +4 audio. A regular supply could be used at home or car battery
> and a switchmode brick for B+. A headphone jack would be supplied off
> this tube.
>
> The set should cover 500 kHz to 30 MHz, AM, SSB and CW, with a
> product detector of course. A 455 kHz IF is needed so as to use common
> mechanical or crystal filters, which are optional. There should also
> be a 455 kHz IF out for an external synchronous detector.
>
> Any other comments?

Yeah, why would anyone build a survival set whose filaments would burn
much more power than a VERY high end transistor set? You plan on
hauling around sq yards of solar cells to power that rig?

Regards,
JS

Patrick Turner

November 11th 11, 10:36 PM

On Nov 11, 11:29*pm, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" >
wrote:
> Patrick Turner wrote:
> > But good luck with you quest. You'll definately need +60dB of that.
>
> Patrick, I too was going to write something like that, but you did far
> better than I could.
>
> The point that was buried in his original posting was that he is building
> an "EMP-PROOF" radio to sell to the survivalist market.

Oh, I didn't think of that. If WW3 breaks out, all arses will have
departed, because on hearing about the beginning of WW3 off the
Internet, everyone will bend down to kiss their arse goodbye, and
arses will depart, bye-bye, and no need for toilets or food any
more.

But "survivalist" resonated exuberantly in my mind because I'm 64, and
the foppish Beatles used to sing a song "will ya still lerve me when
I'm 64?". I'm 64. I know the answer, forbidden to be sung about by
anyone, and its NO, no one at all will lerve ya when your'e 64, so
that means all that's left is survival against a rotten horrible
marauding mob of young upstarts hell bent on invading and pillaging
and burying alive all that my father's generation established, and
they all **** a lot while I'm not allowed to 'av one, well, not for
free, and mean while this horrible lot are decimating the remaining
species across the planet, and all trying to build absurdly large
mansionettes, while all sending huge quantites of CO2 skywards which
will ruin the weather, and exacerbate their self generated future
difficulties.

One "survivavlist" I know had two sound systems I serviced, a Quad-II
with early Whardale LS, and a Leak system. Once inside the door of his
house, one entered the lounge-room, and it was all exactly as it was
in 1955, with a 1956 newspaper on the coffee table screaming headlines
"SUEZ BOMBED". 1956 was a time when the rot of modernity really got a
toe past the front door of most ppl, and rock and roll was seen as
just as bad as WW3.

So, this survivalist guy just saw no reason to mentally proceed past
1956. He worked his way up to being chief conserverator at the
Australian Sound and Film Archives where much of the audio-visual
media of the past ends up to be converted to digital files for future
generations to enjoy, and for old blokes to gloat over.

I humbly seek approval and aknowledgement that I know what
"survivalist" means, and I can also back up mu claim because I know
now that the older I get, the betta I was, and I have the recently
created medical and dental records to prove it.

> Personally I think it is a fools errand, you can't build a modern radio
> similar to the high performing ones of the past at a cost anyone will pay,
> since in comparison, you can buy any one of the many old radios that will do,
> pay a professional to refurbish and align it, and buy several lifetimes worth
> of spare parts for far less.

Professionals who know about old Racals and so on are just about all
dead now.
But to copy a Racal so you could provide a kit would be financial
suicide.
>
> Not only that but radio collecting is a well known and liked hobby, nobody is
> going to take a second look at that old transoceanic on your shelf, but
> many would flip out seeing any firearm.
>
> If you are paranoid, you an even find stores in many places where you can buy
> a refurbished radio for cash and leave a fake name and address.

Well, lotsa Mr Para Noids getting around on the Internet; they all
broadcast their ideas, using a false nickname, and wouldn't dare use
the name given to them by their parents.

So paranoidism isn't any big deal.

Bet ya don't go out to night clubs at 2AM any more to hunt for hot
crumpet. Too many arsoles will happily mug you. Paranoidism prevents
you wandering like a lost old dog than the young bitches will laugh
at. Survivalism has you staying at home.

But bicycles are safe during the day.

Patrick Turner.
>
> Geoff.
>
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson, *N3OWJ/4X1GM
> My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

Patrick Turner

November 11th 11, 11:38 PM

On Nov 12, 3:45*am, "D. Peter Maus" > wrote:
> On 11/11/11 08:42 , Lord Valve wrote:
>
> >> If you are paranoid, you an even find stores in many places where you can buy
> >> a refurbished radio for cash and leave a fake name and address.
>
> > Huh?
>
> > Where are you posting from? Why would anyone need to
> > leave his name and address - fake or otherwise - when
> > purchasing a radio?
>
> * *Because cash transactions are coming under the scrutiny of
> authority, today. Louisiana just became the most recent state to
> require identity of purchaser in a cash transaction or a ban on the
> cash transaction. Even a used purchase from a flea market or a
> garage sale.
>
> * *Other states are currently debating this provision.

How about that. I guess the Taxation and Police authorities might like
to know how and where ppl spend their cash.

But I heard that since 911, hundreds of huge and mainly hidden
buildings housing about 2 million workers across the USA have been
quietly built and operate to filter all email traffic and phone
traffic to detect terrorists and possibly anyone other selectable
target, like people trading in OLD STUFF like old radios which consume
the same amount of electricity to run an air con unit, or 500 i-pods.
These spying centers suck in digital data like huge vacuum cleaners,
then apply a filter for key words. One wonders if such centers could
detect the next intended school shooting or Oklahoma Bombing.
The so called BLACK ECONOMY, ie, the flow of cash which can't be
traced and hence isn't taxed is one of the big reasons to try to
outlaw cash, and thus have everyone pay the transaction cost to a 3rd
party by means of the credit card. But here in Oz, cash is still
widely used, and everyone I know does not need to be told to bring
cash when paying me peanut wages for radio repairs. I explain to ppl
that average wages are 60 grand a year now, ie, $1,300 a week for the
46 weeks out of 52 ppl actually work, ie, $32.50c per hour of 40 hrs a
week.
(( Ppl get to "administer" this amount, then have to pay $10 income
tax and maybe 25 other various bribes to banks for mortage payments
and GST, and company profits etc, etc, etc, before keeping $3.25 to
buy bananas to give the banana farmer a similar amount via the system
of banana distribution so he ends up with 10c per banana. Its all far
more complex than a company boss or union rep is willing to
describe )). But a radio might take 120 hrs to fix right, and maybe I
get $600, after giving them a discount of $3,300 off the wages of
$3,900 which should be paid for 120 hours of work. Cash will be around
for awhile yet, but in 20 years perhaps goverments will try to save
money by not printing it. I'll be dead as the species of cash becomes
extinct like the lions, tigers, and elephants, and thousands of lesser
known species. Trouble may come if a government values a radio repair
transaction as being worth say $3,900 instead of $600, and taxes
people on the same rate as those earning average weekly earnings to
discourage anyone offering discounts to compete, or to survive. All
sorts of BS is possible, but so far, afaik, cash is still extremely
popular here. But in 1983, if someone wanted to extend their house,
all work valued above $10,000 had to be "declared" to prevent ppl
hiding un-seen cash income in the form of house improvements. Guess
what. Ppl just did little bits of improvements at a time and still
managed to get their house extensions approved by the govt
authorities. Bundles of notes went out of one pocket and into another
one. But in Greece, there is mastery of the cash economy, and they
have many other devious ways of keeping NOSY PARKER GOVT out of
business, and as a result, you see the mess Greece is in. Two sides to
every story.
Maybe another Great Depression might just happen. The Financial System
BEAST of the world survives because other ppl have a hand in YOUR
pocket whether you like it or not. The Beast extracts a steady trickle
of bucks to make credit flow. The trickle is like food, a small
percentage of body weight needs to be consumed by the Beast each day
to survive and if the trickle feed stops, the Beast gets very sick
indeed, thus giving everyone the ****s in a big way. Departments of
taxation and Criminal control departments of governments around the
world are part of the Beast. Beastly health is mostly desirable, but
colly wobbles can now be heard.

And there is a gigantic building here worth a billion or two being
built at high speed for ASIO, the Oz branch of CIA equivalent, right
here in town. Maybe it'll have about 3,000 ppl employed to keep a
watch on what everyone else is doing, saying, typing, and sending, and
its only "one small step" to knowing what everyone is thinking, and a
"giant leap for mankind" to control thinking.

From what I see, everyone wants a cheap deal and they don't care about
your wages, just their own.
Ppl don't care about the environment of anyone or anything living more
than 5km away from themselves.
Most ppl don't really mind being spied on.
And many will happily spy on everyone else.
Its going on, and people ain't rioting in the streets about it.

Patrick Turner.

D. Peter Maus

November 11th 11, 11:55 PM

On 11/11/11 17:38 , Patrick Turner wrote:
> On Nov 12, 3:45 am, "D. Peter > wrote:
>> On 11/11/11 08:42 , Lord Valve wrote:
>>
>>>> If you are paranoid, you an even find stores in many places where you can buy
>>>> a refurbished radio for cash and leave a fake name and address.
>>
>>> Huh?
>>
>>> Where are you posting from? Why would anyone need to
>>> leave his name and address - fake or otherwise - when
>>> purchasing a radio?
>>
>> Because cash transactions are coming under the scrutiny of
>> authority, today. Louisiana just became the most recent state to
>> require identity of purchaser in a cash transaction or a ban on the
>> cash transaction. Even a used purchase from a flea market or a
>> garage sale.
>>
>> Other states are currently debating this provision.
>
> How about that. I guess the Taxation and Police authorities might like
> to know how and where ppl spend their cash.

Actually, it's more sinister than that.

>
> But I heard that since 911, hundreds of huge and mainly hidden
> buildings housing about 2 million workers across the USA have been
> quietly built and operate to filter all email traffic and phone
> traffic to detect terrorists and possibly anyone other selectable
> target, like people trading in OLD STUFF like old radios which consume
> the same amount of electricity to run an air con unit, or 500 i-pods.
> These spying centers suck in digital data like huge vacuum cleaners,
> then apply a filter for key words. One wonders if such centers could
> detect the next intended school shooting or Oklahoma Bombing.
> The so called BLACK ECONOMY, ie, the flow of cash which can't be
> traced and hence isn't taxed is one of the big reasons to try to
> outlaw cash, and thus have everyone pay the transaction cost to a 3rd
> party by means of the credit card. But here in Oz, cash is still
> widely used, and everyone I know does not need to be told to bring
> cash when paying me peanut wages for radio repairs. I explain to ppl
> that average wages are 60 grand a year now, ie, $1,300 a week for the
> 46 weeks out of 52 ppl actually work, ie, $32.50c per hour of 40 hrs a
> week.
> (( Ppl get to "administer" this amount, then have to pay $10 income
> tax and maybe 25 other various bribes to banks for mortage payments
> and GST, and company profits etc, etc, etc, before keeping $3.25 to
> buy bananas to give the banana farmer a similar amount via the system
> of banana distribution so he ends up with 10c per banana. Its all far
> more complex than a company boss or union rep is willing to
> describe )). But a radio might take 120 hrs to fix right, and maybe I
> get $600, after giving them a discount of $3,300 off the wages of
> $3,900 which should be paid for 120 hours of work. Cash will be around
> for awhile yet, but in 20 years perhaps goverments will try to save
> money by not printing it. I'll be dead as the species of cash becomes
> extinct like the lions, tigers, and elephants, and thousands of lesser
> known species. Trouble may come if a government values a radio repair
> transaction as being worth say $3,900 instead of $600, and taxes
> people on the same rate as those earning average weekly earnings to
> discourage anyone offering discounts to compete, or to survive. All
> sorts of BS is possible, but so far, afaik, cash is still extremely
> popular here. But in 1983, if someone wanted to extend their house,
> all work valued above $10,000 had to be "declared" to prevent ppl
> hiding un-seen cash income in the form of house improvements. Guess
> what. Ppl just did little bits of improvements at a time and still
> managed to get their house extensions approved by the govt
> authorities. Bundles of notes went out of one pocket and into another
> one. But in Greece, there is mastery of the cash economy, and they
> have many other devious ways of keeping NOSY PARKER GOVT out of
> business, and as a result, you see the mess Greece is in. Two sides to
> every story.
> Maybe another Great Depression might just happen. The Financial System
> BEAST of the world survives because other ppl have a hand in YOUR
> pocket whether you like it or not. The Beast extracts a steady trickle
> of bucks to make credit flow. The trickle is like food, a small
> percentage of body weight needs to be consumed by the Beast each day
> to survive and if the trickle feed stops, the Beast gets very sick
> indeed, thus giving everyone the ****s in a big way. Departments of
> taxation and Criminal control departments of governments around the
> world are part of the Beast. Beastly health is mostly desirable, but
> colly wobbles can now be heard.
>
> And there is a gigantic building here worth a billion or two being
> built at high speed for ASIO, the Oz branch of CIA equivalent, right
> here in town. Maybe it'll have about 3,000 ppl employed to keep a
> watch on what everyone else is doing, saying, typing, and sending, and
> its only "one small step" to knowing what everyone is thinking, and a
> "giant leap for mankind" to control thinking.
>
> From what I see, everyone wants a cheap deal and they don't care about
> your wages, just their own.
> Ppl don't care about the environment of anyone or anything living more
> than 5km away from themselves.
> Most ppl don't really mind being spied on.
> And many will happily spy on everyone else.
> Its going on, and people ain't rioting in the streets about it.

They will. About 2 hours after it's too late.

John Smith[_5_]

November 11th 11, 11:57 PM

On 11/11/2011 9:34 AM, m II wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> D. Peter Maus wrote:
>
>>> Where are you posting from? Why would anyone need to
>>> leave his name and address - fake or otherwise - when
>>> purchasing a radio?
>>
>>
>> Because cash transactions are coming under the scrutiny of authority,
>> today. Louisiana just became the most recent state to require identity
>> of purchaser in a cash transaction or a ban on the cash transaction.
>> Even a used purchase from a flea market or a garage sale.
>>
>> Other states are currently debating this provision.
>
>
> It's for the benefit of the *children*.
>
> Many contagious diseases are spread by filthy money and the Brothels
> just aren't sterilizing the bills like they used to. The Cocaine pushers
> are far better in this respect, as they get their clients to ingest any
> product left on the money.
>
> Only anti-American terrorists use cash for purchases.
>
> Next week I will be proposing a new 'Sterility' law which will require
> all canned good to be opened for examination before being placed on the
> store shelves.
>
> Then, the mandatory installation nation wide of surveillance cameras in
> the bathrooms of the Elderly. They fall a lot and the cameras would
> assure a swift response by medical teams.
>
> *SAFETY* is paramount.
>
>
>
> mike
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ROFLOL ... that is funny ...

But then, quite suddenly, you realize that the world is full of these
irrational imbeciles who really believe this stuff and would vote or
demand it "in."

The only happy point about our civilization facing the possibility of
annihilating itself is the fact it would take these *******s to a place
where they can no longer harm themselves or others ...

Regards,
JS

Patrick Turner

November 12th 11, 12:07 AM

On Nov 12, 5:07*am, John Smith > wrote:
> On 11/10/2011 9:52 PM, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > * With the survivalist market as well as the DIYers who would build a
> > kit I have given thought to the idea of building a new tube shortwave
> > receiver as a usable, practical set.
>
> > * That means no regens, no DC bull****, and no plug in coils. It must
> > have production grade RF and IF coils, a bandswitch, and require
> > alignment. If sold as a kit the builder will need a RF generator and a
> > scope (or a spec an or CSM with a track gen).
>
> > * It should use off the shelf parts even if those shelves are bare, as
> > it is better to copy an existing item than design from scratch. I
> > would clone the Eddystone dial mechanism and the bandswitch and coils
> > from some Hallicrafters or Hammarlund set, they could be sold as
> > desperately needed replacement spares for the old sets too. I would
> > use a seeing eye tube mounted in a hole in the dial as opposed to a
> > meter movement, again, getting a run of new tubes made is possible if
> > you are buying several thousand. There are some surplus that could be
> > used if really needed too.
>
> > * I would use a separate power supply and speaker for several reasons..
>
> > * I would have the radio take in B+ and heater voltage and put out 600
> > ohm +4 audio. A regular supply could be used at home or car battery
> > and a switchmode brick for B+. A headphone jack would be supplied off
> > this tube.
>
> > * The set should cover 500 kHz to 30 MHz, AM, SSB and CW, with a
> > product detector of course. A 455 kHz IF is needed so as to use common
> > mechanical or crystal filters, which are optional. There should also
> > be a 455 kHz IF out for an external synchronous detector.
>
> > Any other comments?
>
> Yeah, why would anyone build a survival set whose filaments would burn
> much more power than a VERY high end transistor set? *You plan on
> hauling around sq yards of solar cells to power that rig?
>
> Regards,
> JS- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The OP may not be hauling mobile tube stuff anywhere. But best SW
reception is at night, when the sun don't shine, and the wind hardly
blows much. But many ppl here have bought solar photo-voltaic systems
for the house roof and they sell the excess power back to the main
supplier of the Grid. This pays for the electricity used at other
times. But authorities worked out this payment for locally generated
power was a subsidy paid by those without solar, and a loss and big
****fights over money occurred soon after solar panel uptake went way
over what was expected. Encouraging solar was regarded as part of the
"Being seen to be doing something Green and Good" and therefore
getting votes, while in reality increasing the cost of electricity,
and making SFA difference to overall CO2 emissions. So pay back rates
ahve plummeted, and solar companies have gone broke, as only the rich
can afford to pay for solar panels, let alone the batteries needed for
use of power at night. Country dwellers can get by on low power of
solar and batteries if they are careful and have low power everything,
use batteries, cook on wood fire, heat water with wood stove, use gas
maybe etc, but tube audio or radio is about out of the question,
unless you use the low filament current tubes meant for portable
radios so popular between 1935 and 1955. They would be very easy to
rum from a few batteries,
only 8 x 12V car batteries are needed for a B+ of 90Vdc, and its
simple to arrange low voltage DC batteries for directly heated
cathodes which use very little current. But such "portable tubes" are
not being made now.

Plenty of good solid state SW radios operating on very low power are
to be had. Ppl can then focus on antennas if they want good reception.
The receiver performance is basically solved, but after WW3, if you
survive, a good antenna to pick up other survivors transmitting with
low power might be handy. This assumes WW3 will send the world back to
about where it was in 1925, with maybe 2 billion survivors with
accelerated death rates, and ever declining technical production
ability for non essentials. Essentials like ammunition, bows and
arrows will be manufactured.

Patrick Turner.

RHF

November 12th 11, 06:10 AM

On Nov 11, 8:57*am, "D. Peter Maus" > wrote:
> On 11/11/11 24:15 , wrote:
>
> > On Nov 11, 12:04 am, David >
> > wrote:
> >> My guess is that the cost you would have to charge to recoup the time
> >> and effort you put together in coming up with such a design would end
> >> up making such a set *much* more expensive than just going to a ham
> >> fest, buying a Hammarlund in good shape, and fixing it up. Or even
> >> paying someone else to fix it up.
>
> > * I already have a R-390, two Hammarlunds and a Racal....I wanted to
> > manufacture something. Or at least think about it.
>
> * *Certainly worth thinking about.
>
> * *Maybe worth doing. But consider:
>
> * *Tubes are getting harder to come buy. Not that they can't be had.
> And after an EMP, they're likely to be as available as working SS
> devices. But there are inherent issues with Tubes. One is that they
> use a LOT of precious energy, that in a survival mode situation is
> best conserved for other applications, or longer listening. Another
> is that voltages are much higher than those that can be recovered
> after or during a crisis with ease. Low voltage, low current devices
> are going to be more desirable when energy is in short supply.
>
> * *But, more importantly, tube receivers aren't necessarily less
> prone to damage by EMP than SS receivers. In fact, there is
> empirical evidence to suggest that SS receivers can be made to
> survive an EMP where a tube receiver will not.
>
> * *Your best options, then, would include building a reasonably high
> performance receiver with readily available common parts, and take
> measures, such as a Faraday cage, and effective grounding/input
> protection measures, to render your station if not immune, then more
> resistant to stray or induced hostile voltages.
>
> * *Now, you have a practical, and manufacturable, product.

-wrt- Faraday Cage :
Old Metal {Steel} Garbage Can with a
tight fitting Lid. -store-holding-
+ The Solid State AM/FM/SW Radio
+ Plenty of Batteries
-or- Re-Chargeable Batteries and a
Solar Charger

-no-tubes-required- ~ RHF

John Smith[_5_]

November 12th 11, 07:44 PM

On 11/11/2011 10:10 PM, RHF wrote:

> ...
> -wrt- Faraday Cage :
> Old Metal {Steel} Garbage Can with a
> tight fitting Lid. -store-holding-
> + The Solid State AM/FM/SW Radio
> + Plenty of Batteries
> -or- Re-Chargeable Batteries and a
> Solar Charger
>
> -no-tubes-required- ~ RHF
> .

Satellites are withstanding these on an almost daily basis, for years,
if not decades ... doesn't seem to be a real problem anymore ...
however, laying hands to that technology might be a bit of a different
story ... as, while one nation might wants its' own satellites hardened,
it certainly doesn't want the enemies ...

Regards,
JS