The Vocal Ensemble Effect - how to?

[Sean Conolly]

When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that sounds
like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
voices if you understand what I mean.

Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?

Thanks,
Sean

[Tom]

> I end up with something that sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?


Get better singers. Or a better engineer. Or both. No magic
or tricks - recording is just as much an art as playing an instrument.

Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
****load of reverb.

You can only record what your microphones hear.

Tom

[Tom]

> I end up with something that sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?


Get better singers. Or a better engineer. Or both. No magic
or tricks - recording is just as much an art as playing an instrument.

Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
****load of reverb.

You can only record what your microphones hear.

Tom

[Steve King]

"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Thanks,
> Sean

With respect, I believe that the effect you want depends on the singer(s).
I was lucky to be mixing music in the 70s, when most advertising campaigns
had jingles. If the top singers were on a session, one could put them
anywhere in the room, mic them with just about any mic that was handy, use
essentially no effects or processing, and four singers could sound like a
choir. With other, less skilled, singers it was frantic city... changing
out mics, trying six kinds of reverb, trying delay (as rudimentary as delay
was then), compression, EQ... all to little effect and rarely satisfying.
In other words, I haven't the foggiest idea how to answer your question.
Wish I did. If someone could come up with a magic bullet for this, they'd
be shopping for vacation homes on the Riviera in no time.

Steve King

[Steve King]

"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Thanks,
> Sean

With respect, I believe that the effect you want depends on the singer(s).
I was lucky to be mixing music in the 70s, when most advertising campaigns
had jingles. If the top singers were on a session, one could put them
anywhere in the room, mic them with just about any mic that was handy, use
essentially no effects or processing, and four singers could sound like a
choir. With other, less skilled, singers it was frantic city... changing
out mics, trying six kinds of reverb, trying delay (as rudimentary as delay
was then), compression, EQ... all to little effect and rarely satisfying.
In other words, I haven't the foggiest idea how to answer your question.
Wish I did. If someone could come up with a magic bullet for this, they'd
be shopping for vacation homes on the Riviera in no time.

Steve King

[Harvey Gerst]

"Tom" > wrote:

>> I end up with something that sounds
>> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
>> voices if you understand what I mean.
>>
>> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?

>Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
>Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
>****load of reverb.

Tom,

Hey watch it - that's MY SOUND you're talking about.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[Harvey Gerst]

"Tom" > wrote:

>> I end up with something that sounds
>> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
>> voices if you understand what I mean.
>>
>> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?

>Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
>Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
>****load of reverb.

Tom,

Hey watch it - that's MY SOUND you're talking about.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[Les Cargill]

Sean Conolly wrote:
>
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Thanks,
> Sean

Subgroup 'em through a short 'verb, compress 'em together or just pan them
closer to each other.

I've submixed vox together with full F/X and imported the resulting
2-track back in.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Sean Conolly wrote:
>
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Thanks,
> Sean

Subgroup 'em through a short 'verb, compress 'em together or just pan them
closer to each other.

I've submixed vox together with full F/X and imported the resulting
2-track back in.

--
Les Cargill

[Paul Bawol]

Assuming that the vox are on the right pitch at the right time, use reverb
and delay to give them a sense of all coming from a particular place. A
little of several effects usually beats a lot of any one effect. For
example, you can use delay, reverb and doubling together, just enough of
each that you can barely discern the effect, but clearly hear the difference
when the effects are muted. Or feature one effect with others far in the
background. Or use slightly different settings for each voice. Try running
the results through one compressor. Often you will prefer compression before
the effects are added.

None of this will sound exactly natural. But honestly now, how many
recordings do you hear that sound exactly natural?

If you have a nice sounding room, try backing off the mic a bit while
tracking. Or use a bi-directional or omni mic...

....Paul

--
************************************************** ********
"In the analog realm, it ain't "OVER" 'til it's over."


"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Thanks,
> Sean
>
>
>

[Paul Bawol]

Assuming that the vox are on the right pitch at the right time, use reverb
and delay to give them a sense of all coming from a particular place. A
little of several effects usually beats a lot of any one effect. For
example, you can use delay, reverb and doubling together, just enough of
each that you can barely discern the effect, but clearly hear the difference
when the effects are muted. Or feature one effect with others far in the
background. Or use slightly different settings for each voice. Try running
the results through one compressor. Often you will prefer compression before
the effects are added.

None of this will sound exactly natural. But honestly now, how many
recordings do you hear that sound exactly natural?

If you have a nice sounding room, try backing off the mic a bit while
tracking. Or use a bi-directional or omni mic...

....Paul

--
************************************************** ********
"In the analog realm, it ain't "OVER" 'til it's over."


"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Thanks,
> Sean
>
>
>

[Les Cargill]

Tom wrote:
>
> > I end up with something that sounds
> > like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> > voices if you understand what I mean.
> >
> > Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Get better singers. Or a better engineer. Or both. No magic
> or tricks - recording is just as much an art as playing an instrument.
>
> Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
> Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
> ****load of reverb.
>
> You can only record what your microphones hear.
>
> Tom

Most people aren't very specialized in backing vox, so it's
a good thing to know how to fudge. One thing that's Useful
when you're doing demos is to be able to be the backing
vox guy of last resort.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Tom wrote:
>
> > I end up with something that sounds
> > like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> > voices if you understand what I mean.
> >
> > Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> Get better singers. Or a better engineer. Or both. No magic
> or tricks - recording is just as much an art as playing an instrument.
>
> Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
> Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
> ****load of reverb.
>
> You can only record what your microphones hear.
>
> Tom

Most people aren't very specialized in backing vox, so it's
a good thing to know how to fudge. One thing that's Useful
when you're doing demos is to be able to be the backing
vox guy of last resort.

--
Les Cargill

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Harvey Gerst wrote:

> "Tom" wrote:

> >> I end up with something that sounds
> >> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> >> voices if you understand what I mean.

> >> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?

> >Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
> >Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
> >****load of reverb.

> Tom,

> Hey watch it - that's MY SOUND you're talking about.

****, and here I was idolizing The Radio Kings! Can you keep shut up
about Santa Claus and the E. Bunny, Popester? A man needs illusions.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Harvey Gerst wrote:

> "Tom" wrote:

> >> I end up with something that sounds
> >> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> >> voices if you understand what I mean.

> >> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?

> >Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
> >Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
> >****load of reverb.

> Tom,

> Hey watch it - that's MY SOUND you're talking about.

****, and here I was idolizing The Radio Kings! Can you keep shut up
about Santa Claus and the E. Bunny, Popester? A man needs illusions.

--
ha

[Sean Conolly]

"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?

I think I didn't ask my question the right way...

What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
ensemble. Simple stuff like having the lead singer add multiple harmony
parts, but blending like it was recorded at the same time in the same space.
I've thought of running the vocal mix (lightly) through a convincing "room
simulator" reverb setting to help, but I'm curious what the pros do for
these situations.

Sean

[Sean Conolly]

"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound like
> they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
sounds
> like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with three
> voices if you understand what I mean.
>
> Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?

I think I didn't ask my question the right way...

What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
ensemble. Simple stuff like having the lead singer add multiple harmony
parts, but blending like it was recorded at the same time in the same space.
I've thought of running the vocal mix (lightly) through a convincing "room
simulator" reverb setting to help, but I'm curious what the pros do for
these situations.

Sean

[Mike Faithfull]

"Tom" > wrote in message
news.com...
> > I end up with something that sounds
> > like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with
three
> > voices if you understand what I mean.
> >
> > Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
>
> Get better singers. Or a better engineer. Or both. No magic
> or tricks - recording is just as much an art as playing an instrument.
>
> Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
> Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
> ****load of reverb.
>
> You can only record what your microphones hear.

Exactly - and in a home studio with amateur (and sometimes very
'amateurish') singers, the venerable ATR-1 can be a life-saver! With
careful management, the pitch-corrected ATR-1 output re-combined with the
original raw input signal can make a credible ensemble vocal ...

[Mike Faithfull]

"Tom" > wrote in message
news.com...
> > I end up with something that sounds
> > like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with
three
> > voices if you understand what I mean.
> >
> > Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
>
> Get better singers. Or a better engineer. Or both. No magic
> or tricks - recording is just as much an art as playing an instrument.
>
> Or do what all the crappy hacks do and route through an
> Antares ATR-1 or Digitech Vocalist and slather with a
> ****load of reverb.
>
> You can only record what your microphones hear.

Exactly - and in a home studio with amateur (and sometimes very
'amateurish') singers, the venerable ATR-1 can be a life-saver! With
careful management, the pitch-corrected ATR-1 output re-combined with the
original raw input signal can make a credible ensemble vocal ...

[philicorda]

"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> "Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound
like
> > they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> > record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
> sounds
> > like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with
three
> > voices if you understand what I mean.
> >
> > Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> I think I didn't ask my question the right way...
>
> What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
> give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
> ensemble. Simple stuff like having the lead singer add multiple harmony
> parts, but blending like it was recorded at the same time in the same
space.
> I've thought of running the vocal mix (lightly) through a convincing "room
> simulator" reverb setting to help, but I'm curious what the pros do for
> these situations.

Try setting up a stereo pair of mics, and then getting the singer to stand
in different places in the room for each ensemble part.

[philicorda]

"Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
...
> "Sean Conolly" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When you're multi-tracking vocals, how do you get the voices to sound
like
> > they're singing with each other in the same space at the same time? If
> > record three parts and try to blend them I end up with something that
> sounds
> > like three different parts overlaid, instead of a unified piece with
three
> > voices if you understand what I mean.
> >
> > Anyone have any tips or tricks on this?
>
> I think I didn't ask my question the right way...
>
> What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
> give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
> ensemble. Simple stuff like having the lead singer add multiple harmony
> parts, but blending like it was recorded at the same time in the same
space.
> I've thought of running the vocal mix (lightly) through a convincing "room
> simulator" reverb setting to help, but I'm curious what the pros do for
> these situations.

Try setting up a stereo pair of mics, and then getting the singer to stand
in different places in the room for each ensemble part.

[LeBaron & Alrich]

philicorda wrote:

> Try setting up a stereo pair of mics, and then getting the singer to stand
> in different places in the room for each ensemble part.

This can work, but one must consider that for each part one gets the
full room, whereas with a larger vocal ensemble all tracked together
now, one gets that same full room, but once only.

So, moving the pair a little closer to the vocalist can help balance the
amount of room taken with each track.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

philicorda wrote:

> Try setting up a stereo pair of mics, and then getting the singer to stand
> in different places in the room for each ensemble part.

This can work, but one must consider that for each part one gets the
full room, whereas with a larger vocal ensemble all tracked together
now, one gets that same full room, but once only.

So, moving the pair a little closer to the vocalist can help balance the
amount of room taken with each track.

--
ha

[Keith W Blackwell]

> What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
> give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
> ensemble. Simple stuff like having the lead singer add multiple harmony
> parts, but blending like it was recorded at the same time in the same space.
> I've thought of running the vocal mix (lightly) through a convincing "room
> simulator" reverb setting to help, but I'm curious what the pros do for
> these situations.

Just for fun, go browse www.SongBirdofSwing.com and
listen to some demo mixes. If you like the effect,
then try the same techniques. If you don't, then don't.
By way of explanation, here you'll find one female
vocalist doing every part in a choir. IMO, some of it
works well, other aspects do not. I think it would be
easier to just take Scott's advice. And of course,
the parts must be sung well. A singer might tend to
sing like they're doing a solo, with too much vibrato
and sibilance, when they should be trying to blend
instead. And timing can be way off. All of these
could be complicating your task.

--
Keith W Blackwell

[Wayne]

>> What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
>> give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
>> ensemble.

If your're doing SATB or SAT, it can be a real challenge to make it sound full
and melodic with only one voice. Darn near impossible from every time I've
heard it tried.

I've always used three separate voices and layer them (sing and record same
part multiple times on separate tracks). The best way is three voices at one
time for tone, blend, timbre, etc.

Do like four voice overs then delay two of the tracks by 15-20ms for fullness
or run two of tracks through a GOOD chorus effect. Keep it low in the mix so
you can't hear the canned effect but still hear the voices (tricky).

My .02


--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-

[no spam]

>
>What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
>give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
>ensemble.

Sean,
I had a project recently with vocal group who shall remain anonymous
they were very inexperienced and not that tight or tuned. I did
something they asked for which went against my normal instincts, but
had some benefits.
I stood them in a circle and gave them each a mic.
This way they could maintain eye contact, and record the way they
rehearse. It also meant with one ear phone off they heard each other
the way they are used to.
I was able to do a bit more auto tuning after on some tracks where
they leaked less. It wasn't my best work ! But it was an improvement
over the last time I recorded them.

Paul Gitlitz
Glitchless Productions
www.glitchless.net

[no spam]

>
>What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
>give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
>ensemble.

Sean,
I had a project recently with vocal group who shall remain anonymous
they were very inexperienced and not that tight or tuned. I did
something they asked for which went against my normal instincts, but
had some benefits.
I stood them in a circle and gave them each a mic.
This way they could maintain eye contact, and record the way they
rehearse. It also meant with one ear phone off they heard each other
the way they are used to.
I was able to do a bit more auto tuning after on some tracks where
they leaked less. It wasn't my best work ! But it was an improvement
over the last time I recorded them.

Paul Gitlitz
Glitchless Productions
www.glitchless.net

[Ken/Eleven Shadows]

Okay, I'll take a crack at this. Why not pretend like there IS an
ensemble that is actually this large? Let's say that you had 9-12
singers instead of three...how would you mic them?

One possible suggestion would be to have them stand as you would if
you had this large of a group. In other words, pull the mic(s) back.
If you are only using one singer, keep the mic(s) stationary while
having your singer change positions 9-12 times so that he can emulate
all of the positions that you might have had the ensemble recorded in
your room.

I've done this before and had pretty good luck with it. I've also
done it with stringed instruments to emulate a quartet and had good
luck with that.

What you can do then is submix then, if you would like, in the manner
that was suggested earlier in this thread, and possibly use a subtle
reverb (if necessary) to sonically "glue" the voices together and give
it an even greater sense of cohesion. This may not even be necessary
since you would have already gone through all the trouble of emulating
an ensemble in the same room.

BTW, I've found this technique to be more effective with stereo mics
than one mic, but it still seems to work with one mic.

-Ken/Eleven Shadows
http://www.elevenshadows.com


> I think I didn't ask my question the right way...
>
> What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
> give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
> ensemble. Simple stuff like having the lead singer add multiple harmony
> parts, but blending like it was recorded at the same time in the same space.
> I've thought of running the vocal mix (lightly) through a convincing "room
> simulator" reverb setting to help, but I'm curious what the pros do for
> these situations.
>
> Sean

[Ken/Eleven Shadows]

Okay, I'll take a crack at this. Why not pretend like there IS an
ensemble that is actually this large? Let's say that you had 9-12
singers instead of three...how would you mic them?

One possible suggestion would be to have them stand as you would if
you had this large of a group. In other words, pull the mic(s) back.
If you are only using one singer, keep the mic(s) stationary while
having your singer change positions 9-12 times so that he can emulate
all of the positions that you might have had the ensemble recorded in
your room.

I've done this before and had pretty good luck with it. I've also
done it with stringed instruments to emulate a quartet and had good
luck with that.

What you can do then is submix then, if you would like, in the manner
that was suggested earlier in this thread, and possibly use a subtle
reverb (if necessary) to sonically "glue" the voices together and give
it an even greater sense of cohesion. This may not even be necessary
since you would have already gone through all the trouble of emulating
an ensemble in the same room.

BTW, I've found this technique to be more effective with stereo mics
than one mic, but it still seems to work with one mic.

-Ken/Eleven Shadows
http://www.elevenshadows.com


> I think I didn't ask my question the right way...
>
> What I'm looking for are recording techniques for adding vocal tracks that
> give a sense of ensemble performance, when you can't actually get the
> ensemble. Simple stuff like having the lead singer add multiple harmony
> parts, but blending like it was recorded at the same time in the same space.
> I've thought of running the vocal mix (lightly) through a convincing "room
> simulator" reverb setting to help, but I'm curious what the pros do for
> these situations.
>
> Sean