How would you record/mix this trio?

[Nate Najar]

I am recording my new trio record next week and will be working at a studio I've not worked at before. I of course will ask the engineer his preference/suggestion and there is no wrong answer here, but I am curious as to how some of you would do it. I am not asking for microphone choices or anything like that, but instead just aesthetic opinions.

The trio is classical guitar, upright bass and drums. Because of the low volume of the guitar, this type of group does not exist in nature the way a piano trio does. So a stereo pair doesn't work without amplification, which isn't happening. So we'll use gobos and isolation.

But this could be approached a few different ways. Wide stereo drums and guitar and bass down the middle or slightly opposite panned... Wide stereo drums and stereo guitar with bass in the middle... Drums and bass panned opposite and guitar down the middle... There are lots of options, and while most microphoe setups will accomodate most of these scenarios, I would rather decide up front and mic the instruments the best way for that scenario. So what's your opinion?

N

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Nate Najar wrote:

> I am recording my new trio record next week and will be working at a
> studio I've not worked at before.
> I of course will ask the engineer his preference/suggestion and there
> is no wrong answer here, but I am
> curious as to how some of you would do it. I am not asking for
> microphone choices or anything like that,
> but instead just aesthetic opinions.
>
> The trio is classical guitar, upright bass and drums. Because of the
> low volume of the guitar, this type of group does not exist in nature
> the way a piano trio does. So a stereo pair doesn't work without
> amplification, which isn't happening. So we'll use gobos and
> isolation.
>
> But this could be approached a few different ways. Wide stereo drums
> and guitar and bass down the middle or slightly opposite panned...
> Wide stereo drums and stereo guitar with bass in the middle...
> Drums and bass panned opposite and guitar down the middle... There
> are lots of options, and while most microphoe setups will accomodate
> most of these scenarios, I would rather decide up front and mic the
> instruments the best way for that scenario. So what's your opinion?

Does the studio have a nice room? Is this trio ever to be presented
live? How would that work? If you're really concerned with natural
presentation of something not found in nature... that sounds like a
stereo pair plus a spot on the guitar. Maybe a spot on the bass, just
for grins. If there's already a pickup on the bass, capture that too.
Is the engineer okay with lining up tracks in the service of phase in a
DAW after?

I would be kind of hesitant to use gobos if they have a nice
live room. Bleed embiggens the littlest recordings.

if you don't care at all about live presentation matching the
recording, then anything goes. You can always mute
it later.

Also also - drive a stake in the ground on mic placement time up
front. That's bit some people I know recently - it shouldn't take
four hours...

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Nate Najar > wrote:

> I am recording my new trio record next week and will be working at a
> studio I've not worked at before. I of course will ask the engineer his
> preference/suggestion and there is no wrong answer here, but I am curious
> as to how some of you would do it. I am not asking for microphone choices
> or anything like that, but instead just aesthetic opinions.
>
> The trio is classical guitar, upright bass and drums. Because of the low
> volume of the guitar, this type of group does not exist in nature the way
> a piano trio does. So a stereo pair doesn't work without amplification,
> which isn't happening. So we'll use gobos and isolation.
>
> But this could be approached a few different ways. Wide stereo drums and
> guitar and bass down the middle or slightly opposite panned... Wide
> stereo drums and stereo guitar with bass in the middle... Drums and bass
> panned opposite and guitar down the middle... There are lots of options,
> and while most microphoe setups will accomodate most of these scenarios, I
> would rather decide up front and mic the instruments the best way for that
> scenario. So what's your opinion?

I'd avoid wide stereo drums, because that, too, doesn't exist in nature,
and in this context it could sound extremely artificial.

That Cub amp you have, if not powerful enough for your gigs, might serve
well in the studio.

The rest of it comes down to your own vision. You're the producer. If
you close your eyes and imagine listening to the finished work, what
shows up in your mind's ear? I'd make that decsion ahead of time, and
then position players in the space such that a stereo pair could get the
picture. (I'd be having you use your amp in order to balance with the
rest of the ensemble.) Then I would minimally close-mic each source
individually, and combine the pair with the individual tracks at
mixdown.

Personally I might not try to isolate the players much. For this kind of
work live communication is critical to a performance and I would give
that higher priority than isolation.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Nate Najar]

ok hank, say I set the trio up just like a gig- drums SL, bass in the middle and me SR. nice and tight. this trio I'm recording is not the one you've seen in the videos i've posted- this is the DC rhythm section and is much more sensitive.

so say I set the group up like that and use an ortf pair out front and spot the guitar and bass with something (probably schoeps mk41, as I have a pair of them I can bring with me). how should the drums be spot mic'd? certainly not a stereo pair, as that would mess up the image from the main pair. a single cardioid out front? I'll have access to a pair of schoeps mk4's in addition to my mk41's, plus whatever the studio has.

I'm thinking of 2 mics on the guitar regardless so I can capture more if the instrument, not necessarily for "50 foot wide guitar) purposes, but just to get more information, but of course with more information comes more spill.

I'm toying with the thought of leaving the bass and drums in the room and putting me in iso. we'll still be able to see but that would give a real separation. who knows how the iso room sounds though.

for the record we're recording at Airshow in takoma park, Md. I exchanged email with Scott D a few months ago about having him record us, and I'm sort of hellbent on having him do a project for me, but logistically I couldn't really make it work with a room and my schedule and everything else this time around.

I'm religiously opposed to using an amp in the studio on my classical though- although I will be happy to take a direct pickup feed for whatever use that may possibly bring.

I'm mixing the record myself. so i want to record it right so it mixes itself! I haven't discussed this stuff with the tracking engineer yet, but will be talking to him this week. It's a small room but supposedly sounds good. we'll see. I'm apprehensive about working somewhere new, but logistically it works out very well, so I hope the project does well.

thanks to you and everyone else for the comments!

N

[PStamler]

On Aug 30, 1:32*pm, Nate Najar > wrote:
> so say I set the group up like that and use an ortf pair out front and spot the guitar and bass with something (probably schoeps mk41, as I have a pair of them I can bring with me). *how should the drums be spot mic'd? *certainly not a stereo pair, as that would mess up the image from the main pair. *a single cardioid out front? *I'll have access to a pair of schoeps mk4's in addition to my mk41's, plus whatever the studio has.
>
> I'm thinking of 2 mics on the guitar regardless so I can capture more if the instrument, not necessarily for "50 foot wide guitar) purposes, but just to get more information, but of course with more information comes more spill.
>
> I'm toying with the thought of leaving the bass and drums in the room and putting me in iso. *we'll still be able to see but that would give a real separation. *who knows how the iso room sounds though.
>
> for the record we're recording at Airshow in takoma park, Md. *I exchanged email with Scott D a few months ago about having him record us, and I'm sort of hellbent on having him do a project for me, but logistically I couldn't really make it work with a room and my schedule and everything else this time around.
>
> I'm religiously opposed to using an amp in the studio on my classical though- although I will be happy to take a direct pickup feed for whatever use that may possibly bring.
>
> I'm mixing the record myself. *so i want to record it right so it mixes itself! *I haven't discussed this stuff with the tracking engineer yet, but will be talking to him this week. *It's a small room but supposedly sounds good. *we'll see. *I'm apprehensive about working somewhere new, but logistically it works out very well, so I hope the project does well.

I wouldn't isolate yourself. On a recording like this leakage is your
best friend. Just make sure you observe the 10dB rule (the leakage
should be >= 10dB below the main signal in every mic).

Be sure everyone can hear everyone else really well. And I think
you're correct to devote a track to a DI feed from the guitar's
pickup; you can use it for seasoning.

Good luck -- sounds like it'll be a good session.

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

PStamler > wrote:

> On Aug 30, 1:32 pm, Nate Najar > wrote:
> > so say I set the group up like that and use an ortf pair out front and
> >spot the guitar and bass with something (probably schoeps mk41, as I have
> >a pair of them I can bring with me). how should the drums be spot mic'd?
> > certainly not a stereo pair, as that would mess up the image from the
> >main pair. a single cardioid out front? I'll have access to a pair of
> >schoeps mk4's in addition to my mk41's, plus whatever the studio has.
> >
> > I'm thinking of 2 mics on the guitar regardless so I can capture more if
> >the instrument, not necessarily for "50 foot wide guitar) purposes, but
> >just to get more information, but of course with more information comes
> >more spill.
> >
> > I'm toying with the thought of leaving the bass and drums in the room
> >and putting me in iso. we'll still be able to see but that would give a
> >real separation. who knows how the iso room sounds though.
> >
> > for the record we're recording at Airshow in takoma park, Md. I
> >exchanged email with Scott D a few months ago about having him record us,
> >and I'm sort of hellbent on having him do a project for me, but
> >logistically I couldn't really make it work with a room and my schedule
> >and everything else this time around.
> >
> > I'm religiously opposed to using an amp in the studio on my classical
> >though- although I will be happy to take a direct pickup feed for
> >whatever use that may possibly bring.
> >
> > I'm mixing the record myself. so i want to record it right so it mixes
> >itself! I haven't discussed this stuff with the tracking engineer yet,
> >but will be talking to him this week. It's a small room but supposedly
> >sounds good. we'll see. I'm apprehensive about working somewhere new,
> >but logistically it works out very well, so I hope the project does well.
>
> I wouldn't isolate yourself.

What Paul said. Think of Van Gelder's early work. Isolation? Not so
much.

> On a recording like this leakage is your
> best friend.

It's part of why some recordings sound as if they happened in real time
in a real space, instead of synthesized from elements isolated in space
and time.

> Just make sure you observe the 10dB rule (the leakage
> should be >= 10dB below the main signal in every mic).

That's important and not difficult, generally.

> Be sure everyone can hear everyone else really well.

The basis of it all - musical communication.

> And I think
> you're correct to devote a track to a DI feed from the guitar's
> pickup; you can use it for seasoning.
>
> Good luck -- sounds like it'll be a good session.


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[PStamler]

On Aug 30, 2:19*pm, PStamler > wrote:
> On a recording like this leakage is your
> best friend. Just make sure you observe the 10dB rule (the leakage
> should be >= 10dB below the main signal in every mic).

Duh. Make that "<= 10dB". Gotta start making my coffee earlier in the
morning.

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Rivers]

On 8/30/2011 2:32 PM, Nate Najar wrote:

> this trio
> I'm recording is not the one you've seen in the videos
> i've posted- this is the DC rhythm section and is much
> more sensitive.

More sensitive? How so? They're more fussy than your usual
group, or you're more fussy when playing with them? Or
something else.

> so say I set the group up like that and use an ortf pair
> out front and spot the guitar and bass with something
> (probably schoeps mk41, as I have a pair of them I can
> bring with me). how should the drums be spot mic'd?

That depends on what the drummer is playing. But if you spot
mic the guitar, the bass, and the drums, that's kind of like
not-too-close miking the instruments and adding in room
ambiance. That's not a bad approach but it doesn't leave
much room for mixing.

> I'm toying with the thought of leaving the bass and drums
> in the room and putting me in iso. we'll still be able
> to see but that would give a real separation. who knows
> how the iso room sounds though.

Airshow's main tracking room is a good size for your group.
There's enough trapping in there so that you have reasonable
separation without getting too far apart. Their engineering
is pretty good there and they'll work with you. They do a
lot of acoustic work so it's not like you're going to a rock
studio and will have to teach them what you want to hear.
It's OK to come in with your ideas, but I'd play a little
there before making a decision as to how to record the group.

> I'm apprehensive about working
> somewhere new, but logistically it works out very well,
> so I hope the project does well.

Are you playing some gigs while you're here? Let me know
when you'll be recording and I'll come by and say hello.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Nate Najar]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2011 8:50:42 AM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 8/30/2011 2:32 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
>
> > this trio
> > I'm recording is not the one you've seen in the videos
> > i've posted- this is the DC rhythm section and is much
> > more sensitive.
>
> More sensitive? How so? They're more fussy than your usual
> group, or you're more fussy when playing with them? Or
> something else.

something else. They pay more attention to how quiet I am and adjust accordingly.

>
> > so say I set the group up like that and use an ortf pair
> > out front and spot the guitar and bass with something
> > (probably schoeps mk41, as I have a pair of them I can
> > bring with me). how should the drums be spot mic'd?
>
> That depends on what the drummer is playing. But if you spot
> mic the guitar, the bass, and the drums, that's kind of like
> not-too-close miking the instruments and adding in room
> ambiance. That's not a bad approach but it doesn't leave
> much room for mixing.
>

hence my asking the question!


> > I'm toying with the thought of leaving the bass and drums
> > in the room and putting me in iso. we'll still be able
> > to see but that would give a real separation. who knows
> > how the iso room sounds though.
>
> Airshow's main tracking room is a good size for your group.
> There's enough trapping in there so that you have reasonable
> separation without getting too far apart. Their engineering
> is pretty good there and they'll work with you. They do a
> lot of acoustic work so it's not like you're going to a rock
> studio and will have to teach them what you want to hear.
> It's OK to come in with your ideas, but I'd play a little
> there before making a decision as to how to record the group.
>

that's good advice and good to know.


> > I'm apprehensive about working
> > somewhere new, but logistically it works out very well,
> > so I hope the project does well.
>
> Are you playing some gigs while you're here? Let me know
> when you'll be recording and I'll come by and say hello.


I'm doing a little low key duo gig, me and vibraphonist Chuck Redd in Annapolis at 49 west tomorrow night (thurs, sep 1). On saturday I'm doing the Monty Alexander Jazz Festival at the Avalon Theater on the eastern shore. We're at Airshow on Tuesday and Wednesday next week, pretty full days. I'd love it if you could stop by!

thank you!

N

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Nate Najar wrote:

> I am recording my new trio record next week and will be working at a
> studio I've not worked at before. I of course will ask the engineer
> his preference/suggestion and there is no wrong answer here, but I am
> curious as to how some of you would do it. I am not asking for
> microphone choices or anything like that, but instead just aesthetic
> opinions.

Single mic on - or in front of - bass, ortf-pair above drummers head, omni
on kick and your usual concert setup on your guitar + and ortf-pair in front
of and above you optimized for your guitar but used for overall room sound,
narrow inter-mic angle to force room-sound to near mono to avoid side-offset
of bass and drums. Quite possibly:

gui



bass



drums

so as to be able to adhere to absolute left and right on the ortf-pairs.
Players will have good contact and mic directionality will work with rather
than against the setup. Bass smack dab center, kick smack dab center, gui
spot mike smack dab center, drum overheads 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock, gui-room
pair full left-right. Artificial ambience primarily on gui-room pair but
also on gui-spot and I would experiement with it on bass spot. The big
variable is how to use and whether to use high pass filtering.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


> The trio is classical guitar, upright bass and drums. Because of the
> low volume of the guitar, this type of group does not exist in nature
> the way a piano trio does. So a stereo pair doesn't work without
> amplification, which isn't happening. So we'll use gobos and
> isolation.

> But this could be approached a few different ways. Wide stereo drums
> and guitar and bass down the middle or slightly opposite panned...
> Wide stereo drums and stereo guitar with bass in the middle... Drums
> and bass panned opposite and guitar down the middle... There are
> lots of options, and while most microphoe setups will accomodate most
> of these scenarios, I would rather decide up front and mic the
> instruments the best way for that scenario. So what's your opinion?
>
> N