Genuinely live or did they have help?

[muzician21]

Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
Krauss & Union Station that was on TV a few years back.

Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
were they getting any technological help?

What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
show?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 21:38:33 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
> wrote:

>Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
>Krauss & Union Station that was on TV a few years back.
>
>Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
>hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
>superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
>were they getting any technological help?
>
>What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
>show?
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1

Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
back. What a dull concert that must have been.

d

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[Mike Rivers]

On 8/15/2011 12:38 AM, muzician21 wrote:
> Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
> Krauss& Union Station that was on TV a few years back.
>
> Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> were they getting any technological help?

I doubt that there's any live show or recording at this
level that hasn't had some technological help. Much as I
like bluegrass and country music, this combination isn't my
cup of tea, so I'm not going to bother with the video. What
I can tell you is that Alison Krauss is very picky in the
studio, rehearses very diligently, they always do everything
the same way, and tends toward pretty sparse arrangements.

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some edits or fixes
done in the studio. There's nothing to be ashamed of with
that. Everyone does it, because producers somehow think that
buyers expect perfection so they make everything perfect.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"muzician21" > wrote in message
...
> Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
> Krauss & Union Station that was on TV a few years back.
>
> Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> were they getting any technological help?
>
> What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
> show?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1

Both recordings are so badly trashed by probable audio encoder problems that
any serious analysis is IMO totally impossible.

Got anything that is good enough to be listened to, even casually?

[Tobiah[_4_]]

> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
> back. What a dull concert that must have been.

What are you referring to with "white line"?

Thanks,

Tobiah

[Richard Kuschel]

On Aug 15, 7:18*am, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
> > Krauss & Union Station that was on TV a few years back.
>
> > Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> > hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> > superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> > were they getting any technological help?
>
> > What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
> > show?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1
>
> Both recordings are so badly trashed by probable audio encoder problems that
> any serious analysis is IMO totally impossible.
>
> Got anything that is good enough to be listened to, even casually?

I agree, that YouTube sound is so bad and processed that it is
impossible to tell what was done with the voices.

I remember a Shania/Alison Television broadcast a few years ago (Maybe
the same show} and there was great disparity between the sound of
Alison's voice and Shania's. At the time I thought that Shania was
autotuned as her voice was metallic and somewhat robotic. Alison tends
to be accurate in her pitch and it is unlikely that Shania would be
able to match her that well without some help.

[Nil]

On 14 Aug 2011, muzician21 > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> were they getting any technological help?
>
> What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
> show?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1

It's hard to tell for sure, since the audio is a little out-of-sync
with the video, but Twain sure sounds auto-tuned to me.

I was thinking about her just the other day. I've been told that Twain
is actually a competent singer, but I can tell that her studio records
are heavily auto-tuned. I was wondering if that would necessitate the
use of auto-tune for live performance, to maintain that impossible,
inhuman level of "perfection". This video seems to answer that
question.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, Tobiah >
wrote:

>> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
>> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>
>What are you referring to with "white line"?
>
It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
the states.

d

[John Williamson]

Nil wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2011, muzician21 > wrote in
> rec.audio.pro:
>
>> Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
>> hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
>> superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
>> were they getting any technological help?
>>
>> What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
>> show?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1
>
> It's hard to tell for sure, since the audio is a little out-of-sync
> with the video, but Twain sure sounds auto-tuned to me.
>
> I was thinking about her just the other day. I've been told that Twain
> is actually a competent singer, but I can tell that her studio records
> are heavily auto-tuned. I was wondering if that would necessitate the
> use of auto-tune for live performance, to maintain that impossible,
> inhuman level of "perfection". This video seems to answer that
> question.

One thing that I did notice is that there's a lot of wind blowing her
hair round while she's singing. Now, I'm only listening and watching on
a netbook on account of where I am, but I can't hear *any* effect from
the wind on her voice, and the windshields look just like the ones that
let a fair bit of wind through if I'm daft enough to use them with that
much of a draught. Miming to a recorded track? Especially as the sound
isn't *quite* in sync with her (Or the backing sningers') lips.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Richard Kuschel" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 15, 7:18 am, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
> > Krauss & Union Station that was on TV a few years back.
>
> > Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> > hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> > superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> > were they getting any technological help?
>
> > What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
> > show?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1
>
> Both recordings are so badly trashed by probable audio encoder problems
> that
> any serious analysis is IMO totally impossible.
>
> Got anything that is good enough to be listened to, even casually?

I agree, that YouTube sound is so bad and processed that it is
impossible to tell what was done with the voices.

YouTube's sound is usually a lot better than this example.

I remember a Shania/Alison Television broadcast a few years ago (Maybe
the same show} and there was great disparity between the sound of
Alison's voice and Shania's. At the time I thought that Shania was
autotuned as her voice was metallic and somewhat robotic. Alison tends
to be accurate in her pitch and it is unlikely that Shania would be
able to match her that well without some help.

Give Shania's alleged years of experience as singer in small clubs with
minimal technical resources, it seems unlikely that she can't sing in tune.

[Tobiah[_4_]]

On 08/15/2011 10:40 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, >
> wrote:
>
>>> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
>>> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>>> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>>
>> What are you referring to with "white line"?
>>
> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
> the states.

No, I could not work it out. When I read 'line', I thought of a wire
carrying some sort of signal, harking back to the original idea that
she was being helped by technology.

As it happens, at least in the US, we never have a (solid) white
line down the middle of the road. We can have dashed white to separate
lanes, or dashed yellow to separate traffic direction, or double yellow,
to separate direction with an added prohibition of passing.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:24:40 -0700, Tobiah >
wrote:

>On 08/15/2011 10:40 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
>>>> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>>>> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>>>
>>> What are you referring to with "white line"?
>>>
>> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
>> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
>> the states.
>
>No, I could not work it out. When I read 'line', I thought of a wire
>carrying some sort of signal, harking back to the original idea that
>she was being helped by technology.
>
>As it happens, at least in the US, we never have a (solid) white
>line down the middle of the road. We can have dashed white to separate
>lanes, or dashed yellow to separate traffic direction, or double yellow,
>to separate direction with an added prohibition of passing.

Your road markings are pretty much the same as ours, just with
reversed colours(yellow and white). Sure you have solid lines along
the centre of the highway in areas where overtaking is not allowed.
And even if the lines are dotted, the analogy still works just fine.

Anyway, my sentence was so small and self-contained there was
absolutely no cause to wander off at a tangent about wires. The whole
thing was about the middle of the road.

d

[hank alrich]

Don Pearce > wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, Tobiah >
> wrote:
>
> >> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
> >> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
> >> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
> >
> >What are you referring to with "white line"?
> >
> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
> the states.
>
> d

I'd like to look her back over for that.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Nil > wrote:

> On 14 Aug 2011, muzician21 > wrote in
> rec.audio.pro:
>
> > Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> > hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> > superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> > were they getting any technological help?
> >
> > What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
> > show?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1
>
> It's hard to tell for sure, since the audio is a little out-of-sync
> with the video, but Twain sure sounds auto-tuned to me.
>
> I was thinking about her just the other day. I've been told that Twain
> is actually a competent singer, but I can tell that her studio records
> are heavily auto-tuned. I was wondering if that would necessitate the
> use of auto-tune for live performance, to maintain that impossible,
> inhuman level of "perfection". This video seems to answer that
> question.

Mutt could well have used ottotoon processing in the studio to achieve
that sheen of pop-music-sound. He's seriously famous for his pop
production chops.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Mike Rivers]

On 8/15/2011 1:01 PM, Nil wrote:

> I was thinking about her just the other day. I've been told that Twain
> is actually a competent singer, but I can tell that her studio records
> are heavily auto-tuned.

Maybe the newest ones, but I read that her ex, Mutt Lange,
used to work her really hard in the studio. I'd say that at
least during her breakout period (which was before
everything was autotuned) there may have been a lot of edits
and comping with her vocals. Some people sing in tune SOME
of the time. <g>



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Nil]

On 15 Aug 2011, Mike Rivers > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> Maybe the newest ones, but I read that her ex, Mutt Lange,
> used to work her really hard in the studio. I'd say that at
> least during her breakout period (which was before
> everything was autotuned) there may have been a lot of edits
> and comping with her vocals. Some people sing in tune SOME
> of the time. <g>

That may be true, I'm not that familiar with her music, but the couple
of albums I've heard have so much obvious auto-tune that it's annoying.
And when the singer can actually sing pretty well... I have to wonder
why. Why do they try so hard to remove all human imperfection? That's
what gives it character and makes it interesting to me.

[swanny]

On 15/08/2011 2:38 PM, muzician21 wrote:
> Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
> Krauss & Union Station that was on TV a few years back.
>
> Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> were they getting any technological help?
>
> What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
> show?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1

A little background info on the COO tour that might give some insight.
http://www.randallwaller.com/about.htm

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Nil wrote:
> On 15 Aug 2011, Mike > wrote in
> rec.audio.pro:
>
>> Maybe the newest ones, but I read that her ex, Mutt Lange,
>> used to work her really hard in the studio. I'd say that at
>> least during her breakout period (which was before
>> everything was autotuned) there may have been a lot of edits
>> and comping with her vocals. Some people sing in tune SOME
>> of the time.<g>
>
> That may be true, I'm not that familiar with her music, but the couple
> of albums I've heard have so much obvious auto-tune that it's annoying.
> And when the singer can actually sing pretty well... I have to wonder
> why. Why do they try so hard to remove all human imperfection? That's
> what gives it character and makes it interesting to me.

Autotune adds sibilance/distortion and makes it pop ( as in "pop
up", not popular ). Overproduction is always a slightly cynical thing.
Phil Spector's hair didn't frizz itself...

--
Les Cargill

[Dec [Cluskey]]

On Aug 16, 1:43*am, Nil > wrote:
> On 15 Aug 2011, Mike Rivers > wrote in
> rec.audio.pro:
.. Why do they try so hard to remove all human imperfection? That's
> what gives it character and makes it interesting to me.

Hi Gang

I am always fascinated by this 'anal' approach to 'addicted to live'.

I have never looked at performing music in this way ... I simply look
at the enjoyment factor that a performance creates ... I never analyse
how it was done ... oh, okay, I may, for my own learning reasons.

Leonardo Di Vinci didn't tour around recreating his Mona Lisa at every
venue he visited?

Likewise, I cannot see the reason why lots of music fanatics and music
'interestees' demand that every recording artist should perform their
ultimate studio creations in the live environment ... then agonise
forever on the equipment and techniques they 'may' have used to
achieve what they consider to be an impossible to achieve performance?

My band only once did a proper live album ... "Live at the Talk of the
Town" ... a roque radio mic. was left switched on for the entire
performance which screwed the recorded TV/Album show. We post-synched
[put the voices on later] the entire performance. I can well remember
it ... a nightmare! Especially the live speaking bits ... which had
to be synched with the audience reaction and the live voice through
the main audience sound system..

Amazingly, we never had one comment or fan reaction ... does that tell
a story?

I can also tell the story of a similar thread to this [yonks ago] when
the post-synch engineer on the Beatles 'Shea Stadium' peformance got
in touch with me privately to share my viewpoint on 'addicted to
live' ....

The sound recorded live at Shea Stadium was unusable [the equipment
could not get over the audience screams] and the music element was
totally post synched ... so we never actually got to hear the Beatles
'live' at Shea Stadium.

I will sit in my studio and play a guitar lick 53 times to get it
right ... then it is there forever ... just like Leonardo's final
brush stroke on her smile.

And the 46 tracks of a vocal harmony? Didn't bother Les Paul with
Mary Ford? [grin!] And never bothers me ... even though there are
only three voices on stage? All technology is there to be used.

We used to use 30 Watts for a Shea Stadium gig ... should we still do
that?

Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog

[Tobiah]

On 8/15/2011 1:49 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:24:40 -0700, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 08/15/2011 10:40 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
>>>>> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>>>>> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>>>>
>>>> What are you referring to with "white line"?
>>>>
>>> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
>>> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
>>> the states.
>>
>> No, I could not work it out. When I read 'line', I thought of a wire
>> carrying some sort of signal, harking back to the original idea that
>> she was being helped by technology.
>>
>> As it happens, at least in the US, we never have a (solid) white
>> line down the middle of the road. We can have dashed white to separate
>> lanes, or dashed yellow to separate traffic direction, or double yellow,
>> to separate direction with an added prohibition of passing.
>
> Your road markings are pretty much the same as ours, just with
> reversed colours(yellow and white). Sure you have solid lines along
> the centre of the highway in areas where overtaking is not allowed.
> And even if the lines are dotted, the analogy still works just fine.
>
> Anyway, my sentence was so small and self-contained there was
> absolutely no cause to wander off at a tangent about wires. The whole
> thing was about the middle of the road.

No need to defend yourself. When I said that I couldn't "work it out",
I was making a plain statement about my own mental power rather than
about your ability to communicate.

Since the point is up however, I'd say that the analogy is weak. In
this sense I'd say that someone with a line down their back is one that
would *be* the road, rather than traveling down it, which one would have to
do in order to strike a 'dull' compromise between right and left.
More fitting would be, "That bitch has been ridden so many times, they
had to paint a white line down her back". I might have understood the
connection to the "middle of the road" bit, had we been talking about
a steering wheel that was stuck in one position, or something to that
effect.

[yrret]

"Tobiah" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/15/2011 1:49 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:24:40 -0700, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/15/2011 10:40 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>>>>>> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are you referring to with "white line"?
>>>>>
>>>> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
>>>> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
>>>> the states.
>>>
>>> No, I could not work it out. When I read 'line', I thought of a wire
>>> carrying some sort of signal, harking back to the original idea that
>>> she was being helped by technology.
>>>
>>> As it happens, at least in the US, we never have a (solid) white
>>> line down the middle of the road. We can have dashed white to separate
>>> lanes, or dashed yellow to separate traffic direction, or double yellow,
>>> to separate direction with an added prohibition of passing.
>>
>> Your road markings are pretty much the same as ours, just with
>> reversed colours(yellow and white). Sure you have solid lines along
>> the centre of the highway in areas where overtaking is not allowed.
>> And even if the lines are dotted, the analogy still works just fine.
>>
>> Anyway, my sentence was so small and self-contained there was
>> absolutely no cause to wander off at a tangent about wires. The whole
>> thing was about the middle of the road.
>
> No need to defend yourself. When I said that I couldn't "work it out",
> I was making a plain statement about my own mental power rather than
> about your ability to communicate.
>
> Since the point is up however, I'd say that the analogy is weak. In
> this sense I'd say that someone with a line down their back is one that
> would *be* the road, rather than traveling down it, which one would have
> to
> do in order to strike a 'dull' compromise between right and left.
> More fitting would be, "That bitch has been ridden so many times, they
> had to paint a white line down her back". I might have understood the
> connection to the "middle of the road" bit, had we been talking about
> a steering wheel that was stuck in one position, or something to that
> effect.
>
>
>
>
I didn't get the analogy either. Kind of an interesting mis-communication.
I think what killed it was most high end performers DO have mic/monitor
wires taped to their back. The topic is did they have help, so I am
anticipating hearing some thoughts on lip synching/auto tune systems, which
would be connected to the "lines" taped on her back. Add in that "line" is
often used as lingo for wire; I often hear an installer discuss "running a
line". If anything struck me as odd it was that you'd allude to this system
implied by the white wires and not care to expand on exactly what it does
that makes you lose respect for the performers.

And the way the sentence was written I read it as two sentences.
Unfortunately also very safe and so middle-of-the-road << Seems like the end
of a thought/sentence here. >> I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
back.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:13:43 -0700, Tobiah > wrote:

>On 8/15/2011 1:49 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:24:40 -0700, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/15/2011 10:40 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
>>>>>> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>>>>>> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are you referring to with "white line"?
>>>>>
>>>> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
>>>> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
>>>> the states.
>>>
>>> No, I could not work it out. When I read 'line', I thought of a wire
>>> carrying some sort of signal, harking back to the original idea that
>>> she was being helped by technology.
>>>
>>> As it happens, at least in the US, we never have a (solid) white
>>> line down the middle of the road. We can have dashed white to separate
>>> lanes, or dashed yellow to separate traffic direction, or double yellow,
>>> to separate direction with an added prohibition of passing.
>>
>> Your road markings are pretty much the same as ours, just with
>> reversed colours(yellow and white). Sure you have solid lines along
>> the centre of the highway in areas where overtaking is not allowed.
>> And even if the lines are dotted, the analogy still works just fine.
>>
>> Anyway, my sentence was so small and self-contained there was
>> absolutely no cause to wander off at a tangent about wires. The whole
>> thing was about the middle of the road.
>
>No need to defend yourself. When I said that I couldn't "work it out",
>I was making a plain statement about my own mental power rather than
>about your ability to communicate.
>
>Since the point is up however, I'd say that the analogy is weak. In
>this sense I'd say that someone with a line down their back is one that
>would *be* the road, rather than traveling down it, which one would have to
>do in order to strike a 'dull' compromise between right and left.
>More fitting would be, "That bitch has been ridden so many times, they
>had to paint a white line down her back". I might have understood the
>connection to the "middle of the road" bit, had we been talking about
>a steering wheel that was stuck in one position, or something to that
>effect.
>
>

No, that wasn't the analogy at all. She IS the middle of the road -
neither one way nor the other. That is why she has the line down her
back. Her audiences are those who travel that road. Have you really
never heard the term middle of the road in the context of music? I am
surprised.

d

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 23:22:13 -0500, "yrret" > wrote:

>
>"Tobiah" > wrote in message
...
>> On 8/15/2011 1:49 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:24:40 -0700, >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 08/15/2011 10:40 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>>>>>>> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are you referring to with "white line"?
>>>>>>
>>>>> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
>>>>> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
>>>>> the states.
>>>>
>>>> No, I could not work it out. When I read 'line', I thought of a wire
>>>> carrying some sort of signal, harking back to the original idea that
>>>> she was being helped by technology.
>>>>
>>>> As it happens, at least in the US, we never have a (solid) white
>>>> line down the middle of the road. We can have dashed white to separate
>>>> lanes, or dashed yellow to separate traffic direction, or double yellow,
>>>> to separate direction with an added prohibition of passing.
>>>
>>> Your road markings are pretty much the same as ours, just with
>>> reversed colours(yellow and white). Sure you have solid lines along
>>> the centre of the highway in areas where overtaking is not allowed.
>>> And even if the lines are dotted, the analogy still works just fine.
>>>
>>> Anyway, my sentence was so small and self-contained there was
>>> absolutely no cause to wander off at a tangent about wires. The whole
>>> thing was about the middle of the road.
>>
>> No need to defend yourself. When I said that I couldn't "work it out",
>> I was making a plain statement about my own mental power rather than
>> about your ability to communicate.
>>
>> Since the point is up however, I'd say that the analogy is weak. In
>> this sense I'd say that someone with a line down their back is one that
>> would *be* the road, rather than traveling down it, which one would have
>> to
>> do in order to strike a 'dull' compromise between right and left.
>> More fitting would be, "That bitch has been ridden so many times, they
>> had to paint a white line down her back". I might have understood the
>> connection to the "middle of the road" bit, had we been talking about
>> a steering wheel that was stuck in one position, or something to that
>> effect.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>I didn't get the analogy either. Kind of an interesting mis-communication.
>I think what killed it was most high end performers DO have mic/monitor
>wires taped to their back. The topic is did they have help, so I am
>anticipating hearing some thoughts on lip synching/auto tune systems, which
>would be connected to the "lines" taped on her back. Add in that "line" is
>often used as lingo for wire; I often hear an installer discuss "running a
>line". If anything struck me as odd it was that you'd allude to this system
>implied by the white wires and not care to expand on exactly what it does
>that makes you lose respect for the performers.
>
>And the way the sentence was written I read it as two sentences.
>Unfortunately also very safe and so middle-of-the-road << Seems like the end
>of a thought/sentence here. >> I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>back.
>

I am careful with my grammar. Had I intended that I would have
inserted a comma. I made it a single clause.

d

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:25:18 -0500, (hank alrich)
wrote:

>Don Pearce > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:37:07 -0700, Tobiah >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Twain sounds extremely "tuned" here. Unfortunately also very safe and
>> >> so middle-of-the-road I'm pretty sure she has a white line up her
>> >> back. What a dull concert that must have been.
>> >
>> >What are you referring to with "white line"?
>> >
>> It's what we have down the centre of our roads. Could you really not
>> work that out from the context? I guess it would be a yellow one in
>> the states.
>>
>> d
>
>I'd like to look her back over for that.

I'm guessing she no longer bears close inspection. I know she is
skinny and has a suspiciously smooth face, but I'm betting she wears
that choker to hide a turkey neck.

d

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:45:18 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
> wrote:

>On Aug 16, 1:43*am, Nil > wrote:
>> On 15 Aug 2011, Mike Rivers > wrote in
>> rec.audio.pro:
>. Why do they try so hard to remove all human imperfection? That's
>> what gives it character and makes it interesting to me.
>
>Hi Gang
>
>I am always fascinated by this 'anal' approach to 'addicted to live'.
>
>I have never looked at performing music in this way ... I simply look
>at the enjoyment factor that a performance creates ... I never analyse
>how it was done ... oh, okay, I may, for my own learning reasons.
>
>Leonardo Di Vinci didn't tour around recreating his Mona Lisa at every
>venue he visited?
>
>Likewise, I cannot see the reason why lots of music fanatics and music
>'interestees' demand that every recording artist should perform their
>ultimate studio creations in the live environment ... then agonise
>forever on the equipment and techniques they 'may' have used to
>achieve what they consider to be an impossible to achieve performance?
>
>My band only once did a proper live album ... "Live at the Talk of the
>Town" ... a roque radio mic. was left switched on for the entire
>performance which screwed the recorded TV/Album show. We post-synched
>[put the voices on later] the entire performance. I can well remember
>it ... a nightmare! Especially the live speaking bits ... which had
>to be synched with the audience reaction and the live voice through
>the main audience sound system..
>
>Amazingly, we never had one comment or fan reaction ... does that tell
>a story?
>
>I can also tell the story of a similar thread to this [yonks ago] when
>the post-synch engineer on the Beatles 'Shea Stadium' peformance got
>in touch with me privately to share my viewpoint on 'addicted to
>live' ....
>
>The sound recorded live at Shea Stadium was unusable [the equipment
>could not get over the audience screams] and the music element was
>totally post synched ... so we never actually got to hear the Beatles
>'live' at Shea Stadium.
>
>I will sit in my studio and play a guitar lick 53 times to get it
>right ... then it is there forever ... just like Leonardo's final
>brush stroke on her smile.
>
>And the 46 tracks of a vocal harmony? Didn't bother Les Paul with
>Mary Ford? [grin!] And never bothers me ... even though there are
>only three voices on stage? All technology is there to be used.
>
>We used to use 30 Watts for a Shea Stadium gig ... should we still do
>that?
>
>Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog

You have fallen foul of the old excluded middle fallacy here, Dec.
There is plenty of ground between the over-processed horror that was
Shania's performance and a warts-and-all strictly live sound. Although
I must say that if I am in the audience, I generally want to hear more
rather than less realism.

d

[Paul[_13_]]

On 8/15/2011 10:36 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:45:18 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
> > wrote:
>
>> On Aug 16, 1:43 am, > wrote:
>>> On 15 Aug 2011, Mike > wrote in
>>> rec.audio.pro:
>> . Why do they try so hard to remove all human imperfection? That's
>>> what gives it character and makes it interesting to me.
>>
>> Hi Gang
>>
>> I am always fascinated by this 'anal' approach to 'addicted to live'.
>>
>> I have never looked at performing music in this way ... I simply look
>> at the enjoyment factor that a performance creates ... I never analyse
>> how it was done ... oh, okay, I may, for my own learning reasons.
>>
>> Leonardo Di Vinci didn't tour around recreating his Mona Lisa at every
>> venue he visited?
>>
>> Likewise, I cannot see the reason why lots of music fanatics and music
>> 'interestees' demand that every recording artist should perform their
>> ultimate studio creations in the live environment ... then agonise
>> forever on the equipment and techniques they 'may' have used to
>> achieve what they consider to be an impossible to achieve performance?
>>
>> My band only once did a proper live album ... "Live at the Talk of the
>> Town" ... a roque radio mic. was left switched on for the entire
>> performance which screwed the recorded TV/Album show. We post-synched
>> [put the voices on later] the entire performance. I can well remember
>> it ... a nightmare! Especially the live speaking bits ... which had
>> to be synched with the audience reaction and the live voice through
>> the main audience sound system..
>>
>> Amazingly, we never had one comment or fan reaction ... does that tell
>> a story?
>>
>> I can also tell the story of a similar thread to this [yonks ago] when
>> the post-synch engineer on the Beatles 'Shea Stadium' peformance got
>> in touch with me privately to share my viewpoint on 'addicted to
>> live' ....
>>
>> The sound recorded live at Shea Stadium was unusable [the equipment
>> could not get over the audience screams] and the music element was
>> totally post synched ... so we never actually got to hear the Beatles
>> 'live' at Shea Stadium.
>>
>> I will sit in my studio and play a guitar lick 53 times to get it
>> right ... then it is there forever ... just like Leonardo's final
>> brush stroke on her smile.
>>
>> And the 46 tracks of a vocal harmony? Didn't bother Les Paul with
>> Mary Ford? [grin!] And never bothers me ... even though there are
>> only three voices on stage? All technology is there to be used.
>>
>> We used to use 30 Watts for a Shea Stadium gig ... should we still do
>> that?
>>
>> Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog
>
> You have fallen foul of the old excluded middle fallacy here, Dec.
> There is plenty of ground between the over-processed horror that was
> Shania's performance and a warts-and-all strictly live sound. Although
> I must say that if I am in the audience, I generally want to hear more
> rather than less realism.
>

What if someone is a Blues, Rock, or Jazz singer, using microtonal
pitch bending, to be purposefully off-key, or between notes?

Is the autotune gonna "correct" these notes as well? Can you set
the resolution of the notes it will correct to?

Sorry, I've never used one of these....doesn't sound like I'm
missing much.....

[Mike Rivers]

On 8/15/2011 8:43 PM, Nil wrote:

> but the couple
> of albums I've heard have so much obvious auto-tune that it's annoying.

If you can hear it, they did it wrong, or they did it
intentionally for whatever reason. There's no reason to
"hear" properly re-tuned vocals, or at least to leave it
that way if it isn't what they want to hear. They have
enough money to do it right.

> And when the singer can actually sing pretty well... I have to wonder
> why. Why do they try so hard to remove all human imperfection?

I guess because someone started the trend and now most
artists and producers just expect it. I don't know if the
listeners were ever given a say in that game.




--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mike Rivers]

On 8/16/2011 1:29 AM, Don Pearce wrote:

> Have you really
> never heard the term middle of the road in the context of music? I am
> surprised.

Oh, all the time, but I've never heard it referred to as
having a white line down the middle of one's back. I didn't
get that colloquialism either, but I didn't think it was a
reference to anything electrical.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Carey Carlan]

Paul > wrote in :

> What if someone is a Blues, Rock, or Jazz singer, using microtonal
> pitch bending, to be purposefully off-key, or between notes?
>
> Is the autotune gonna "correct" these notes as well? Can you set
> the resolution of the notes it will correct to?
>
> Sorry, I've never used one of these....doesn't sound like I'm
> missing much.....

Once again, never is a long time. Pitch fixing can be applied to single
notes as well. I almost never massively autotune (except when recording
middle schoolers) but will often selectively help a note here and there in
an otherwise fine performance.

My rule of thumb is, "If it makes me wince I fix it."

Bended notes, sliding between notes, even that off-key jazz sound are not
just permissable but sometimes required to make it sound right.

[Carey Carlan]

Mike Rivers > wrote in :

> I don't know if the
> listeners were ever given a say in that game.

Most listeners I know can't tell the difference.

[polymod]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/15/2011 8:43 PM, Nil wrote:
>
>> but the couple
>> of albums I've heard have so much obvious auto-tune that it's annoying.
>
> If you can hear it, they did it wrong, or they did it intentionally for
> whatever reason. There's no reason to "hear" properly re-tuned vocals, or
> at least to leave it that way if it isn't what they want to hear. They
> have enough money to do it right.
>
>> And when the singer can actually sing pretty well... I have to wonder
>> why. Why do they try so hard to remove all human imperfection?
>
> I guess because someone started the trend and now most artists and
> producers just expect it. I don't know if the listeners were ever given a
> say in that game.

Every 'kid' that has used my studio *expects* to hear that sound.
Hopefully it's a fad that will fade.
On the other hand, it opens more posibilities for editing, which in turn
uses more time on the clock ;)

Poly

[Dec [Cluskey]]

On Aug 16, 6:36*am, (Don Pearce) wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:45:18 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"

>
> You have fallen foul of the old excluded middle fallacy here, Dec.
> There is plenty of ground between the over-processed horror that was

Don

You got me there Don .... "excluded middle fallacy " ... Hmmmmm!

Thank you for that ... I now have an extra phrase in my vocabulary
[grin!] Reminds me of the old 'split infinitive' phrase much used and
rarely understood.

Personally I have never willingly used Autotune on anything I have
produced or performed. I much prefer to retake.

The performance, to me, is always in front of the microphone and never
after it .... "sh*t in, sh*t out" as my live sound engineer always
says.

I only once had to use Antares ... a co-producer insisted ... took an
age to correct what he perceived as a 'flat' performance from a girl
singer ... I recognised it as a 'style' of singing which a lot of
'today' girls have got. Flat vibrato rather than a vibrato around the
main note.

The result was unusable ... he had taken all the performance away.

I just love being accused of using autotune when I have not ... shows
that the tuning is spot on.

Being a 'vocal arrangement' singer I am so particular about tuning ...
every third track of a harmony line is listened back to with the other
two tracks and checked for tuning much like a piano tuner will check
while tuning a piano ... any movement in the vibrations will show that
one or possibly two of the tracks is out. From experience it is
always the first ... so I will always replace that, check again and
all is well, hopefully ... add the fourth note to get four tracks of
the same harmony note and check again ... voile, perfect un-autotuned
voices. Then onward to the next harmony note. Repeat until project
is finished. Usually a full day.

Sounds boring? But then "perfection is a killer". And the results
are usually stunning.

I cannot imagine a singer such as Shania opening herself up to
criticism re. tuning or use of autotuning in the post synch process.

In my experience, top class vocalists, today, have amazing tuning ...
far superior to what was around when I was batting with the big boys.

Very, very few of the 60's, 70's lot could ever sing a cappella ...
yet today it is routinely expected ... and they can do it.

Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
> wrote:

>On Aug 16, 6:36*am, (Don Pearce) wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:45:18 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
>
>>
>> You have fallen foul of the old excluded middle fallacy here, Dec.
>> There is plenty of ground between the over-processed horror that was
>
>Don
>
>You got me there Don .... "excluded middle fallacy " ... Hmmmmm!
>
>Thank you for that ... I now have an extra phrase in my vocabulary
>[grin!] Reminds me of the old 'split infinitive' phrase much used and
>rarely understood.
>
>Personally I have never willingly used Autotune on anything I have
>produced or performed. I much prefer to retake.
>
>The performance, to me, is always in front of the microphone and never
>after it .... "sh*t in, sh*t out" as my live sound engineer always
>says.
>
>I only once had to use Antares ... a co-producer insisted ... took an
>age to correct what he perceived as a 'flat' performance from a girl
>singer ... I recognised it as a 'style' of singing which a lot of
>'today' girls have got. Flat vibrato rather than a vibrato around the
>main note.
>
>The result was unusable ... he had taken all the performance away.
>
>I just love being accused of using autotune when I have not ... shows
>that the tuning is spot on.
>
>Being a 'vocal arrangement' singer I am so particular about tuning ...
>every third track of a harmony line is listened back to with the other
>two tracks and checked for tuning much like a piano tuner will check
>while tuning a piano ... any movement in the vibrations will show that
>one or possibly two of the tracks is out. From experience it is
>always the first ... so I will always replace that, check again and
>all is well, hopefully ... add the fourth note to get four tracks of
>the same harmony note and check again ... voile, perfect un-autotuned
>voices. Then onward to the next harmony note. Repeat until project
>is finished. Usually a full day.
>
>Sounds boring? But then "perfection is a killer". And the results
>are usually stunning.
>
>I cannot imagine a singer such as Shania opening herself up to
>criticism re. tuning or use of autotuning in the post synch process.
>
>In my experience, top class vocalists, today, have amazing tuning ...
>far superior to what was around when I was batting with the big boys.
>
>Very, very few of the 60's, 70's lot could ever sing a cappella ...
>yet today it is routinely expected ... and they can do it.
>
>Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog

Just think back to the stage back in the 60s. A back line of guitar
amps and a pair of PA columns either side of the stage. All you could
hear was whichever amp you were stood in front of. It's no wonder
nobody could really sing in tune back then.

And now to completely negate what I have just said, Youtube is crammed
with performances from back then by singers who managed near perfect
tuning. OK, they were probably the exception, and the reason we still
know about them is simply because they were great.

d

[Dec [Cluskey]]

On Aug 16, 4:40*pm, (Don Pearce) wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"

> Just think back to the stage back in the 60s. A back line of guitar
> amps and a pair of PA columns either side of the stage. All you could
> hear was whichever amp you were stood in front of. It's no wonder

> And now to completely negate what I have just said, Youtube is crammed
> with performances from back then by singers who managed near perfect
> tuning. OK, they were probably the exception, and the reason we still

Don

I had to take a long warm shower to calm my nerves when I read:
<<<<Just think back to the stage back in the 60s. A back line of
guitar amps and a pair of PA columns either side of the stage>>>>
[grin!]

And the day before we were in the studio with 26 strings, 8 piece
choir, Harp, brass, woodwind plus big rhythm section?

"you don't sound as good as your records" !!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, you didn't mention the maximum two Rezlo mics. on stage?
[that sent a shiver up my spine]

There is a great picture around of my band at Wembley Stadium with the
set-up you describe ... I was beside myself with anger .... there was
a choice of Selmer amps or Marshall amps .... no sound check ... you
just walked on and plugged in ... Beatles finished the show [we
outsold them that year] ... their sound was stunning beyond belief.
When I heard that I was even more angry ... no one, but no one
understood they were miming .... unheard of in those days in a live
situation [for TV]. Clever guy Brian Epstein!

As regards tuning, listen to some of my all time examples of 'out of
tune or what?' ... Mamas and the Papas were probably the worst [in my
opinion] closely followed by The Hollies. Peter, Paul and Mary?

I was reliably informed, at the time, that The Hollies insisted on
recording exactly as their stage set up ... P.A. and all ... so none
of them could hear the other sing.

Also Mamas and Papas were one of the first to record voices and rhythm
section and then overdub strings etc. ... the string players would
never tune up as they were flitting from session to session ... so
they were in a different tuning to the rhythm section [who also never
tuned up]. The result, again in my opinion, was pretty gruesome
tuning wise ... but hey! What a sound? And you can never knock
success or the bank balance?

Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:11:46 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
> wrote:

>On Aug 16, 4:40*pm, (Don Pearce) wrote:[i]
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
>
>> Just think back to the stage back in the 60s. A back line of guitar
>> amps and a pair of PA columns either side of the stage. All you could
>> hear was whichever amp you were stood in front of. It's no wonder
>
>> And now to completely negate what I have just said, Youtube is crammed
>> with performances from back then by singers who managed near perfect
>> tuning. OK, they were probably the exception, and the reason we still
>
>Don
>
>I had to take a long warm shower to calm my nerves when I read:
><<<<Just think back to the stage back in the 60s. A back line of
>guitar amps and a pair of PA columns either side of the stage>>>>
>[grin!]
>
>And the day before we were in the studio with 26 strings, 8 piece
>choir, Harp, brass, woodwind plus big rhythm section?
>
>"you don't sound as good as your records" !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>By the way, you didn't mention the maximum two Rezlo mics. on stage?
>[that sent a shiver up my spine]
>
>There is a great picture around of my band at Wembley Stadium with the
>set-up you describe ... I was beside myself with anger .... there was
>a choice of Selmer amps or Marshall amps .... no sound check ... you
>just walked on and plugged in ... Beatles finished the show [we
>outsold them that year] ... their sound was stunning beyond belief.
>When I heard that I was even more angry ... no one, but no one
>understood they were miming .... unheard of in those days in a live
>situation [for TV]. Clever guy Brian Epstein!
>
>As regards tuning, listen to some of my all time examples of 'out of
>tune or what?' ... Mamas and the Papas were probably the worst closely followed by The Hollies. Peter, Paul and Mary?
>
>I was reliably informed, at the time, that The Hollies insisted on
>recording exactly as their stage set up ... P.A. and all ... so none
>of them could hear the other sing.
>
>Also Mamas and Papas were one of the first to record voices and rhythm
>section and then overdub strings etc. ... the string players would
>never tune up as they were flitting from session to session ... so
>they were in a different tuning to the rhythm section [who also never
>tuned up]. The result, again in my opinion, was pretty gruesome
>tuning wise ... but hey! What a sound? And you can never knock
>success or the bank balance?
>
>Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog

Mamas and Papas? I never heard them live, but I didn't need to. They
were out of tune on their records.

Probably my favourite concert from back then was the Doors and
Jefferson Airplane at the Roundhouse. I don't know how she managed it,
the state her head must have been in, but Grace Slick always managed
to sing brilliantly - not only in tune, but with a sense of rhythm and
cadence that was quite uncanny. Somehow Jim Morrison - whose head was
in a worse state than Grace's - pulled off the same feat.

As for Rezlo mics, I think John Mayall still uses one. Probably the
same one he has always had.

d

[Dec [Cluskey]]

On Aug 16, 6:43*pm, (Don Pearce) wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:11:46 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Aug 16, 4:40*pm, (Don Pearce) wrote:[i]
> >> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT), "Dec [Cluskey]"
>
> >> Just think back to the stage back in the 60s. A back line of guitar
> >> amps and a pair of PA columns either side of the stage. All you could
> >> hear was whichever amp you were stood in front of. It's no wonder
>
> >> And now to completely negate what I have just said, Youtube is crammed
> >> with performances from back then by singers who managed near perfect
> >> tuning. OK, they were probably the exception, and the reason we still
>
> >Don
>
> >I had to take a long warm shower to calm my nerves when I read:
> ><<<<Just think back to the stage back in the 60s. A back line of
> >guitar amps and a pair of PA columns either side of the stage>>>>
> >[grin!]
>
> >And the day before we were in the studio with 26 strings, 8 piece
> >choir, Harp, brass, woodwind plus big rhythm section?
>
> >"you don't sound as good as your records" !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> >By the way, you didn't mention the maximum two Rezlo mics. on stage?
> >[that sent a shiver up my spine]
>
> >There is a great picture around of my band at Wembley Stadium with the
> >set-up you describe ... I was beside myself with anger .... there was
> >a choice of Selmer amps or Marshall amps .... no sound check ... you
> >just walked on and plugged in ... Beatles finished the show [we
> >outsold them that year] ... their sound was stunning beyond belief.
> >When I heard that I was even more angry ... no one, but no one
> >understood they were miming .... unheard of in those days in a live
> >situation [for TV]. *Clever guy Brian Epstein!
>
> >As regards tuning, listen to some of my all time examples of 'out of
> >tune or what?' ... Mamas and the Papas were probably the worst closely followed by The Hollies. *Peter, Paul and Mary?
>
> >I was reliably informed, at the time, that The Hollies insisted on
> >recording exactly as their stage set up ... P.A. and all ... so none
> >of them could hear the other sing.
>
> >Also Mamas and Papas were one of the first to record voices and rhythm
> >section and then overdub strings etc. ... the string players would
> >never tune up as they were flitting from session to session ... so
> >they were in a different tuning to the rhythm section [who also never
> >tuned up]. *The result, again in my opinion, was pretty gruesome
> >tuning wise ... but hey! *What a sound? *And you can never knock
> >success or the bank balance?
>
> >Dec [Cluskey]http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog
>
> Mamas and Papas? I never heard them live, but I didn't need to. They
> were out of tune on their records.
>
> Probably my favourite concert from back then was the Doors and
> Jefferson Airplane at the Roundhouse. I don't know how she managed it,
> the state her head must have been in, but Grace Slick always managed
> to sing brilliantly - not only in tune, but with a sense of rhythm and
> cadence that was quite uncanny. Somehow Jim Morrison - whose head was
> in a worse state than Grace's - pulled off the same feat.
>
> As for Rezlo mics, I think John Mayall still uses one. Probably the
> same one he has always had.
>
> d- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Don

<<<<<<Mamas and Papas? I never heard them live, but I didn't need to.
They
> were out of tune on their records.>>>>>>>>>>>

It was their records I was referring to! [grin1]

As regards artists being 'off their face' playing gigs or
recording ....

In my experience and to the best of my knowledge, physically
impossible.

I only did it twice in my career ... whoops! Fired the first time ...
embarassed beyond belief the second.

Not only the tuning goes but the complete sense of tempo ... the brain
slows up through alcohol/drugs ... so the perception when peforming is
that the tune is galloping ahead and you can't catch up ... a
horrible, horrible feeling.

I have many 'big time' pals who were [and some still are] renowned
'users' on stage and in the studio. Probably the worst was Rick
Wakeman [now totally clean of everything]. They all agree with me ...
it is impossible to perform 'under the influence' .. and many admit to
pretending to do just that 'for their perceived image'.

Keith Moon was a great pal ... listen to his recordings ... now reread
above! An incredibly technical player who gave the impression of
being reckless and off his face. Not a bit.

Just consider the recent Amy Winehouse attempt to perform under the
influence ... an obvious, complete mess.

I always smile when folk tell me of their great music heroes being
'off their face' when performing. Yep, and so was Dean Martin and all
the other artists/bands etc. that pulled off the 'perception' of being
out of it.

The very best alcoholic impressions I have seen on stage have been the
totally sober ones.

Dec [Cluskey] http://www.deccluskey.co.uk/blog

[--D-y]

On Aug 15, 8:18*am, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Just got the DVD of the famous Shania Twain "UP" concert with Alison
> > Krauss & Union Station that was on TV a few years back.
>
> > Just as I remembered, the performances are amazingly tight. But
> > hearing it with fresh ears, it makes me curious. I know Shania is
> > superbly talented and AK&US are as good as they come, but I wonder,
> > were they getting any technological help?
>
> > What say you? Anyone intimately familiar with the production of this
> > show?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIi1z0mgY5w
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLoxpAPLOU&NR=1
>
> Both recordings are so badly trashed by probable audio encoder problems that
> any serious analysis is IMO totally impossible.
>
> Got anything that is good enough to be listened to, even casually?

I don't know if this will help, but my son (almost 12) showed me how
to extract audio from YouTube. I think this is the site he used:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdRDyg1n_VU
If not, something similar.
Again, he saved "audio" from a YT clip that was not listenable when
ripped to CD, where the extract/conversion sound was at least good
enough to irritate me in a plain and forthright manner, as is the duty
of the "rock and roll" of each generation ("bother the parents a whole
lot").
--D-y