Re: Toss your creative tool after 10 years?

[Keoki]

Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
of computers that did not lead to a solution.

I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
all your composing apps virtually.
Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41

It's Computer Independence Day! :-)

[david gourley[_2_]]

Keoki > put forth the notion in...news:041267bc-bd47-4a0e-
:

> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41

I use a VM for some legacy software. I have yet to see one of these systems
recognize 1394 connections, which I need to use, so that's a big limitation
in my world.

david

[david gourley[_2_]]

Les Cargill > put forth the notion in...news:iuv0q5
:

> david gourley wrote:
>> > put forth the notion in...news:041267bc-bd47-
4a0e-
>> :
>>
>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>
>> I use a VM for some legacy software. I have yet to see one of these
systems
>> recognize 1394 connections, which I need to use, so that's a big
limitation
>> in my world.
>>
>> david
>
>
> PCI and 1394 will probably never be supported by a VM, especially
> if the VM is 32 bit on 64 bit machine.
>
> --
> Les Cargill
>

Agreed.

Mine is VMPlayer, running XP inside of Windows 7 64 bit.
It won't work that way, either.

david

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

david gourley wrote:
> > put forth the notion in...news:041267bc-bd47-4a0e-
> :
>
>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>
> I use a VM for some legacy software. I have yet to see one of these systems
> recognize 1394 connections, which I need to use, so that's a big limitation
> in my world.
>
> david


PCI and 1394 will probably never be supported by a VM, especially
if the VM is 32 bit on 64 bit machine.

--
Les Cargill

[Keoki]

You are correct, no VM software supports FireWire connections (and I
tested quite a few.) However there are inexpensive FireWire to USB
adapters; I just bought a couple on eBay for $0.99 each. I'm not sure
if these will work, but I am about to find it out soon.

[Keoki]

I'm accessing the Net from every VM through a NetGear G311 PCI
Ethernet card.

> PCI and 1394 will probably never be supported by a VM

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Keoki wrote:
> I'm accessing the Net from every VM through a NetGear G311 PCI
> Ethernet card.
>
>> PCI and 1394 will probably never be supported by a VM


That is different - they *had* to cut the IP stack
through. IOW, that's a virtual IP node in the VM, generally.

There's no driver-level access of the G311 in the VM.

--
Les Cargill

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Keoki" > wrote in message
...
> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>
> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
> all your composing apps virtually.
> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>
> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)

Why run them virtually when they all still run well without virtualization?

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>
>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>> all your composing apps virtually.
>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>
>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>
> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without virtualization?
>
>

Not all do.

--
Les Cargill

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
...
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>
>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>
>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>
>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>> virtualization?
>>
>>
>
> Not all do.

Got any real world examples?

[david gourley[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
:

>
> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> news:041267bc-bd47-4a0e-8821-94e5df5aac54
@q34g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>>
>>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>>
>>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>>
>>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>>> virtualization?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not all do.
>
> Got any real world examples?
>
>

One of mine is Nero 8, which won't run under Win 7 (64 or 32). I run it
under XP in VMPlayer, and it does just fine. I really didn't want to buy
v.10 if I didn't have to do so otherwise (I use Imgburn quite a bit
anyway).

Sony's DVD Architect 4.5 behaves the same way.

HTH,

david

[Scott Dorsey]

Arny Krueger > wrote:
>"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
...
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>>
>>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>>
>>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>>
>>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>>> virtualization?
>>
>> Not all do.
>
>Got any real world examples?

Well, I am running a first generation Sonic system. It's great; the actual
processing is all in a NuBus card and the host computer really only acts
as a front end. You can stop the application on the host and the system
still continues passing audio.

But, it's a bit hard to virtualize something like that because it is
dependent on a particular piece of hardware and hardware interface.

Same goes double for the old AKG editing stations.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"david gourley" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
> :
>
>>
>> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> news:041267bc-bd47-4a0e-8821-94e5df5aac54
> @q34g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>>>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>>>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>>>
>>>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>>>
>>>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>>>> virtualization?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not all do.

>> Got any real world examples?

> One of mine is Nero 8, which won't run under Win 7 (64 or 32). I run it
> under XP in VMPlayer, and it does just fine. I really didn't want to buy
> v.10 if I didn't have to do so otherwise (I use Imgburn quite a bit
> anyway).

Interesting.

> Sony's DVD Architect 4.5 behaves the same way.

Ineresting.

Must be something about optical drive hardware access.

Did you exhaust the many compatibiility mode options?

[david gourley[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
in...news:R6ednQKr1MMsUojTnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@giganew s.com:

>
> "david gourley" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>> news:041267bc-bd47-4a0e-8821-94e5df5aac54
>> @q34g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>>>>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>>>>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>>>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>>>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>>>>> virtualization?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not all do.
>
>>> Got any real world examples?
>
>> One of mine is Nero 8, which won't run under Win 7 (64 or 32). I run it
>> under XP in VMPlayer, and it does just fine. I really didn't want to
buy
>> v.10 if I didn't have to do so otherwise (I use Imgburn quite a bit
>> anyway).
>
> Interesting.
>
>> Sony's DVD Architect 4.5 behaves the same way.
>
> Ineresting.
>
> Must be something about optical drive hardware access.
>
> Did you exhaust the many compatibiility mode options?
>

I had no need to do that when their websites clearly advised accordingly,
thus saving me the time and trouble. The first thing I check are
compatibility lists and mfr's info.

david

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"david gourley" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
> in...news:R6ednQKr1MMsUojTnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@giganew s.com:
>
>>
>> "david gourley" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> "Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
>>> :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>>> news:041267bc-bd47-4a0e-8821-94e5df5aac54
>>> @q34g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>>>>>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>>>>>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>>>>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>>>>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>>>>>> virtualization?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not all do.
>>
>>>> Got any real world examples?
>>
>>> One of mine is Nero 8, which won't run under Win 7 (64 or 32). I run it
>>> under XP in VMPlayer, and it does just fine. I really didn't want to
> buy
>>> v.10 if I didn't have to do so otherwise (I use Imgburn quite a bit
>>> anyway).
>>
>> Interesting.
>>
>>> Sony's DVD Architect 4.5 behaves the same way.
>>
>> Ineresting.
>>
>> Must be something about optical drive hardware access.
>>
>> Did you exhaust the many compatibiility mode options?
>>
>
> I had no need to do that when their websites clearly advised accordingly,
> thus saving me the time and trouble. The first thing I check are
> compatibility lists and mfr's info.
>

Interesting given that the Sony site says:

http://www.custcenter.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4565/kw/windows%207

DVD Architect Pro 5.2
DVD Architct Pro 5.0b
DVD Architect Studio 5.0
DVD Architect Studio 4.5d

are all fully compatible with Windows 7 with no tweaks or compatibility
updates, and Microsoft says the same thing.

Sony's site also says "At this time, we do not support any applications
installed or operated in Windows XP Mode."

http://www.custcenter.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4845/kw/windows%207/session/L3RpbWUvMTMxMDA2MTc1MC9zaWQvZWVBS1JveWs%3D

This does not mean that they don't run under VM competive software, which
IME does a more effective job of virtualization than MS's.

[david gourley[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
:

>
> "david gourley" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
>> in...news:R6ednQKr1MMsUojTnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@giganew s.com:
>>
>>>
>>> "david gourley" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>> "Arny Krueger" > put forth the notion
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:041267bc-bd47-4a0e-8821-94e5df5aac54
>>>> @q34g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year
lifespan
>>>>>>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem.
Run
>>>>>>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>>>>>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>>>>>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>>>>>>> virtualization?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not all do.
>>>
>>>>> Got any real world examples?
>>>
>>>> One of mine is Nero 8, which won't run under Win 7 (64 or 32). I run
it
>>>> under XP in VMPlayer, and it does just fine. I really didn't want to
>> buy
>>>> v.10 if I didn't have to do so otherwise (I use Imgburn quite a bit
>>>> anyway).
>>>
>>> Interesting.
>>>
>>>> Sony's DVD Architect 4.5 behaves the same way.
>>>
>>> Ineresting.
>>>
>>> Must be something about optical drive hardware access.
>>>
>>> Did you exhaust the many compatibiility mode options?
>>>
>>
>> I had no need to do that when their websites clearly advised
accordingly,
>> thus saving me the time and trouble. The first thing I check are
>> compatibility lists and mfr's info.
>>
>
> Interesting given that the Sony site says:
>
> http://www.custcenter.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4565/kw/windows%207
>
> DVD Architect Pro 5.2
> DVD Architct Pro 5.0b
> DVD Architect Studio 5.0
> DVD Architect Studio 4.5d
>
> are all fully compatible with Windows 7 with no tweaks or compatibility
> updates, and Microsoft says the same thing.
>
> Sony's site also says "At this time, we do not support any applications
> installed or operated in Windows XP Mode."
>
> http://www.custcenter.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4845/kw/windows%
207/session/L3RpbWUvMTMxMDA2MTc1MC9zaWQvZWVBS1JveWs%3D
>
> This does not mean that they don't run under VM competive software, which
> IME does a more effective job of virtualization than MS's.
>
>
>

Arny, I'm very aware of that. I guess you're trying to make some other
point here, but the luxury is lost on me.

As far as versions go, mine were DVD-A 4.5 and possibly the 5.0 or whatever
version was the free upgrade after that. At that point, that's where it
all stopped at Win7.

My situation centers around the fact that I'm still using v.8 of Vegas Pro.
I didn't need to upgrade yet for the type of work that I'm doing with it.
32 bit Vegas Pro runs fine on W7, but I've tested it in the VM, and it does
fine there as well.

YMMV,
david

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Les > wrote in message
> ...
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Back in January we had a great discussion about the 10-year lifespan
>>>> of computers that did not lead to a solution.
>>>>
>>>> I just found and tested successfully a solution to this problem. Run
>>>> all your composing apps virtually.
>>>> Full story with screen shots and speed measurements at
>>>> http://www.southseascave.com/?p=41
>>>>
>>>> It's Computer Independence Day! :-)
>>>
>>> Why run them virtually when they all still run well without
>>> virtualization?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not all do.
>
> Got any real world examples?
>
>

I have an ancient MIDI sequencer that came with
a Win3.1 computer. They literally don't make 'em
like that any more - it has a very simple staff
presentation. You can add notes manually, and it
offers a minimal ability to quantitize, split
and transpose.

There's probably other stuff I've forgotten.

Curiously, one set of ActiveX plugins that are
full 32 bit did not install on Win7 because it
depends on a 32 bit version of a .dll file. I
just retired that one.

Most music software I have bought over the years
got worse with each upgrade. So I didn't.

--
Les Cargill

[Trevor]

"david gourley" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>>> Sony's DVD Architect 4.5 behaves the same way.
>
>> Interesting given that the Sony site says:
>> *DVD Architect Studio 4.5d*
>> are all fully compatible with Windows 7 with no tweaks or compatibility
>> updates, and Microsoft says the same thing.
>
> As far as versions go, mine were DVD-A 4.5 and possibly the 5.0 or
> whatever
> version was the free upgrade after that.

No, but 4.5d is a free update for sure. I have no idea if there are
problems, but I think that's the point Arny was making, it's supposed to
work according to Sony.

Trevor.

[tonewheel]

On Jul 5, 8:32*pm, Keoki > wrote:
> You are correct, no VM software supports FireWire connections (and I
> tested quite a few.) However there are inexpensive FireWire to USB
> adapters; I just bought a couple on eBay for $0.99 each. I'm not sure
> if these will work, but I am about to find it out soon.

*please* do post back if you have any success with these. I was under
the impression that converting FW to USB was not something easily done
with a cheap adapter. I'm getting worried that fewer and fewer laptops
have builtin 1394 these days so I'd be very interested in any
converter that works reliably.

thanks,
TWJ

[Mike Rivers]

On 7/8/2011 9:10 AM, tonewheel wrote:

> On Jul 5, 8:32 pm, > wrote:
>> However there are inexpensive FireWire to USB
>> adapters; I just bought a couple on eBay for $0.99 each. I'm not sure
>> if these will work, but I am about to find it out soon.

> *please* do post back if you have any success with these. I was under
> the impression that converting FW to USB was not something easily done
> with a cheap adapter.

For 99 cents, what you get is a power cable. To move data,
you need a computer or the equivalent in between.

> I'm getting worried that fewer and fewer laptops
> have builtin 1394 these days so I'd be very interested in any
> converter that works reliably.

It's only going to get worse. Not only are there fewer
laptops with a Firewire port, but those that have them
usually use a chip set that many audio devices aren't happy
with. There are external ExpressCard Firewire adapters, but
they're starting to build portable computers without
external expansion slots now. Your Firewire audio hardware
will be orphaned when you can no longer work with an older
computer that can accommodate it.

At least it didn't cost as much as a 24-track analog
recorded did in 1980.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

tonewheel wrote:
> On Jul 5, 8:32 pm, > wrote:
>> You are correct, no VM software supports FireWire connections (and I
>> tested quite a few.) However there are inexpensive FireWire to USB
>> adapters; I just bought a couple on eBay for $0.99 each. I'm not sure
>> if these will work, but I am about to find it out soon.
>
> *please* do post back if you have any success with these. I was under
> the impression that converting FW to USB was not something easily done
> with a cheap adapter.

It is not. I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

> I'm getting worried that fewer and fewer laptops
> have builtin 1394 these days so I'd be very interested in any
> converter that works reliably.
>
> thanks,
> TWJ

--
Les Cargill

[Keoki]

On Jul 8, 12:16*pm, Mike Rivers > wrote:
> Your Firewire audio hardware
> will be orphaned when you can no longer work with an older
> computer that can accommodate it.

I'm back, I got the 6-pin FireWire to USB plugs, and tried them if
they work. The short answer is: no.

Now the details. The first thing that really hit me, as I unwrapped
the adapter plugs: gee golly, I have almost no 6-pin FireWire gear
remaining, actually. The FW/USB hard drive is now hooked up through
USB, all my new HDs are USB, the few Sony cameras that didn't go south
yet are all 4-pin FW...

Luckily, I still have a FA-101 MIDI/audio interface, so I hooked that
to the computer via the USB adapter. With the FA-101's power selector
set to Bus power, the computer wouldn't even boot. Oopsie. I plugged
in the giant wall wart adapter, switched the FA-101 to self powered
mode... the computer booted, and a new device appeared as "USB Hub"
that would not do anything. So some connection apparently exists, but
I guess it would take some drivers (which the plugs didn't come with)
to commandeer the ones and zeros correctly.

Anytime a working USB device shows up on the host OS, launching VMWare
adds it to the menu selection of USB devices connectable to the
virtual machine. Well, the "USB Hub" did not show up on that list at
all. So this concludes the virtual part of the test too, I guess.

I think Mike is right, FireWire is very likely to become orphaned. At
least at present time, the price of virtualization is, one must use
USB devices. (Even for MIDI)
Does anyone want these plugs to try them with his (6-pin) FireWire
device? I'm done with them.

[Keoki]

If virtualization won't cut it due to present lack of FireWire
support, here's a different idea to extend creative tool longevity:

1. Block-based music hardware
2. "Recording black box" for computer DAWs.

Details at: http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/455663/P40/
(Third paragraph and on.)

Am I getting closer? :-)