audio DAC

[RichD]

Have you seen - or listened to - those separate D to A
converters? Do they justify the price? Especially, a
$400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
$50 speakers -

Have there been any double blind listening tests of
these critters, or is this another case of the power of
suggestion?

What lab measurements would you make (and
presumably done by the engineers at the companies),
to test their superior performance?

--
Rich

[Trevor]

"RichD" > wrote in message
...
> Have you seen - or listened to - those separate D to A
> converters? Do they justify the price? Especially, a
> $400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
> $50 speakers -

A $50 DAC playing through $400 speakers will sound better every time!

Trevor.

[geoff]

"RichD" > wrote in message
...
> Have you seen - or listened to - those separate D to A
> converters? Do they justify the price? Especially, a
> $400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
> $50 speakers -
>
> Have there been any double blind listening tests of
> these critters, or is this another case of the power of
> suggestion?
>
> What lab measurements would you make (and
> presumably done by the engineers at the companies),
> to test their superior performance?

If you have $50 speakers why are you even considering a $400 DAC ?!!!

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

RichD > wrote:
>Have you seen - or listened to - those separate D to A
>converters? Do they justify the price? Especially, a
>$400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
>$50 speakers -

Which ones? I have used separate D/A boxes since the mid-eighties.
Mind you, I have never used them through $50 speakers.

>Have there been any double blind listening tests of
>these critters, or is this another case of the power of
>suggestion?

Which critters? Frankly, listening through $50 speakers it can be hard
to tell the difference between music and noise.

I have done double blind tests for years between D/A units and many of them
sound different. Is different better? Sometimes.

>What lab measurements would you make (and
>presumably done by the engineers at the companies),
>to test their superior performance?

Superior to what? I'd certainly do all the usual D/A tests, linearity,
clock phase noise rejection, etc.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

On 6/27/2011 9:15 PM, RichD wrote:
> Have you seen - or listened to - those separate D to A
> converters? Do they justify the price? Especially, a
> $400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
> $50 speakers -

Not for that application, no. Maybe for playing off your
iPod through your $400 earphones, though. Or playing in your
living room through your $18,000 audiophile speakers powered
by your $10,000 single ended triode 15 watt monoblock
amplifiers, or in your studio from playing from your CD
player, DAW, DAT machine, or any other "pro" source through
your $2,500 monitors

> Have there been any double blind listening tests of
> these critters, or is this another case of the power of
> suggestion?

Who needs double blind tests? Either you hear a worthwhile
improvement or you don't. If you need a double blind test to
tell you that, then you're not looking to own it because it
increases your listening pleasure, you're buying it because
your test proved that you SHOULD own it.

> What lab measurements would you make (and
> presumably done by the engineers at the companies),
> to test their superior performance?

Oh, I suppose maximum output level and distortion spectrum
at just full scale, quiescent noise when playing a "digital
black" (-140 dBFS should about do it) audio stream, and
jitter spectrum should about tell the men from the boys.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[RichD]

On Jun 28, "geoff" > wrote:
>
> > Have you seen - or listened *to - those separate D to A
> > converters? *Do they justify the price? *Especially, a
> > $400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
> > $50 speakers -
>
> > Have there been any double blind listening tests of
> > these critters, or is this another case of the power of
> > suggestion?
>
> > What lab measurements would you make (and
> > presumably done by the engineers at the companies),
> > to test their superior performance?
>
> If you have $50 speakers why are you even considering a
> $400 DAC ?!!!

Some of these DAC are touted for laptop or iPod use.
I guess you can tap directly into the digital stream,
somehow.

[RichD]

On Jun 28, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >Have you seen - or listened *to - those separate D to A
> >converters? *Do they justify the price? *Especially, a
> >$400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
> >$50 speakers -
>
> Which ones? *I have used separate D/A boxes since the mid-eighties. *
> Mind you, I have never used them through $50 speakers.
>
> >Have there been any double blind listening tests of
> >these critters, or is this another case of the power of
> >suggestion?
>
> Which critters? *Frankly, listening through $50 speakers it can be hard
> to tell the difference between music and noise.

Like this:
http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/istreamer/

>
> I have done double blind tests for years between D/A units and
> many of them sound different. *Is different better? *Sometimes.

What methods and controls did you use?

--
Rich

[Scott Dorsey]

RichD > wrote:
>On Jun 28, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>
>> Which critters? =A0Frankly, listening through $50 speakers it can be hard
>> to tell the difference between music and noise.
>
>Like this:
>http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/istreamer/

This is interesting. It looks like it's really an ipod interface, that
happens to have a DAC in it. The interesting thing about it is that is
provides an ipod interface, not that it has a DAC.

And yes, the DAC in it is probably going to be better than the one in
the ipod, but that's really not saying very much.

In the professional audio world, it is normal for equipment to have
standard AES/EBU or S-PDIF interfaces. Normally you see D/A units
designed with these interfaces, to be plugged into computers or CD
players or DAT machines or what have you.

Typical professional D/A units can be found from Benchmark, Prism,
Grimm, Weiss, Meitner, Apogee, and db technologies, among plenty of
others.

In the nineties when CD playback was very popular in home audio systems,
there were a lot of consumer D/A units made with S-PDIF interfaces for
use with CD players. Some decent ones were made by Emco, Audio Alchemy,
and so forth. These are still usable with modern audio systems.

>> I have done double blind tests for years between D/A units and
>> many of them sound different. =A0Is different better? =A0Sometimes.
>
>What methods and controls did you use?

You name it, I have probably used it at some point on a DAC review.
Most popular is switching between a reference DAC and an unknown, with
one person in the studio and one person in the control room.

I have also done straightwire tests with an analogue tape source going
into an A/D and D/A pair, and the original source compared with the
converted version. The first print review I ever did was doing this
with a PCM F-1 translating source material from a Scully 280. It was a
very enlightening test. It's hard to find something that sounds worse
than a Scully 280, but Sony managed it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > wrote:
>> On Jun 28, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>
>>> Which critters? =A0Frankly, listening through $50 speakers it can be hard
>>> to tell the difference between music and noise.
>>
>> Like this:
>> http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/istreamer/
>
> This is interesting. It looks like it's really an ipod interface, that
> happens to have a DAC in it. The interesting thing about it is that is
> provides an ipod interface, not that it has a DAC.
>
> And yes, the DAC in it is probably going to be better than the one in
> the ipod, but that's really not saying very much.
>


Dunno - the DAC in my daughter's iPhone was pretty good.

> In the professional audio world, it is normal for equipment to have
> standard AES/EBU or S-PDIF interfaces. Normally you see D/A units
> designed with these interfaces, to be plugged into computers or CD
> players or DAT machines or what have you.
>
> Typical professional D/A units can be found from Benchmark, Prism,
> Grimm, Weiss, Meitner, Apogee, and db technologies, among plenty of
> others.
>
> In the nineties when CD playback was very popular in home audio systems,
> there were a lot of consumer D/A units made with S-PDIF interfaces for
> use with CD players. Some decent ones were made by Emco, Audio Alchemy,
> and so forth. These are still usable with modern audio systems.
>
>>> I have done double blind tests for years between D/A units and
>>> many of them sound different. =A0Is different better? =A0Sometimes.
>>
>> What methods and controls did you use?
>
> You name it, I have probably used it at some point on a DAC review.
> Most popular is switching between a reference DAC and an unknown, with
> one person in the studio and one person in the control room.
>
> I have also done straightwire tests with an analogue tape source going
> into an A/D and D/A pair, and the original source compared with the
> converted version. The first print review I ever did was doing this
> with a PCM F-1 translating source material from a Scully 280. It was a
> very enlightening test. It's hard to find something that sounds worse
> than a Scully 280, but Sony managed it.
> --scott

--
Les Cargill

[Donwill]

On 28/06/2011 02:15, RichD wrote:
> Have you seen - or listened to - those separate D to A
> converters? Do they justify the price? Especially, a
> $400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
> $50 speakers -
>
> Have there been any double blind listening tests of
> these critters, or is this another case of the power of
> suggestion?
>
> What lab measurements would you make (and
> presumably done by the engineers at the companies),
> to test their superior performance?
>
> --
> Rich
>
I bought a Lindy SPDIF DAC for approx £40 if I remember correctly via
Amazon. It plays via B&W DM330 speakers. I haven't done any testing as
such except that my aged ears find the sound superb in comparison with
the TV speakers which are crap. There are a few customer reviews on
Amazon UK.
Hope this helps.
Don

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 10 Jul 2011 08:57:29 +0100, Donwill
> wrote:

>On 28/06/2011 02:15, RichD wrote:
>> Have you seen - or listened to - those separate D to A
>> converters? Do they justify the price? Especially, a
>> $400 DAC connected to your laptop, playing through
>> $50 speakers -
>>
>> Have there been any double blind listening tests of
>> these critters, or is this another case of the power of
>> suggestion?
>>
>> What lab measurements would you make (and
>> presumably done by the engineers at the companies),
>> to test their superior performance?
>>
>> --
>> Rich
>>
>I bought a Lindy SPDIF DAC for approx £40 if I remember correctly via
>Amazon. It plays via B&W DM330 speakers. I haven't done any testing as
>such except that my aged ears find the sound superb in comparison with
>the TV speakers which are crap. There are a few customer reviews on
>Amazon UK.
>Hope this helps.
>Don

I imagine the difference you hear is 99.99% down to the speakers, and
maybe 0.01% the DAC. I'm probably being overly generous to the DAC,
actually.

d

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

RichD" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 28, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


>> I have done double blind tests for years between D/A units and
>> many of them sound different. Is different better? Sometimes.

> What methods and controls did you use?

Good question. If you get a meaningful answer, then the above claim has some
credibility. If you essentially get put off, then you might consider moving
on.

Lots of people have done actual level-matched, time-synched, DBTs of DACs
designed and built, and that have reasonable pretentions of quality, and
have often had a great deal of difficulty finding reliably audible
differences, perhaps starting with this one:

Masters, Ian G. and Clark, D. L., "Do All CD Players Sound the Same?",
Stereo Review, pp.50-57 (January 1986)

It should be noted that these tests involved mass-market digital players
from reputable manufacturers. It is quite possible that prior to 1986 DACs
that sounded different were more prevalent, or that limited-availability
DACs that were less highly engineered caused audible differences. For
example, the article itself found minor audible differences that were
probably due to its DAC in a product that was introduced in 1982-3.

By 2010 many situations where audible differences between DACs whose price
and reputation varied considerably were difficult or impossible to find had
been documented. You can find evidence of this at:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/aes/

[Mike Rivers]

On 7/10/2011 5:50 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:

> By 2010 many situations where audible differences between DACs whose price
> and reputation varied considerably were difficult or impossible to find had
> been documented.

Apparently one of the problems with low power portable
devices (like iPods) that these outboard alleviate is
distortion in the analog output stage, a trade-off with
longer battery life. The trend toward better quality and
lower impedance (hence, higher power if the power is
available) headphones has pushed the manufacturers of
portable devices to better analog outputs, but I know it was
a weak point in early smart phones and MP3 players.

I don't read reviews of accessory converters for iPods
(there are several of them) but I suspect that one thing you
won't read in a review is the amount of reduced operating
time with a converter that's powered by the iPod's battery.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff