Re: Live Sound, Mixing Boards, and Me

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
...
> Got a job shooting a hi def band video. We used 2 cameras - I was back
> camera getting the steady establishing shot, partner was shoulder mount on
> stage getting close-ups. I used my trusty Canon HV20, and man, what
> beautiful video. Even tho it was drizzling rain, it looks just superb, and
> my sound is equally good. Used a separate mike on camera, stereo Teac.
> Also
> copped a track from the sound board, and is that ever weird. We don't
> usually like to take their sound, because it just sounds so Tron like - no
> audience applause, just the musical instrument and mike feeds from the
> stage. What was more disappointing about the board sound was that it was
> dead straight mono. Phooey. I always wondered about that - whether they
> were
> clever enough to mix the PA sound in stereo. Guess not. Maybe it doesn't
> matter.
>
> Anyway, will do a mix of each track and cut in the close-up stuff, and
> should be a great little video for them. Should get us an editing gig too.
>
> Gary Eickmeier

I'm going to jump in and respond to my own post and elaborate a little.

Here is what is curious to me: I thought this music was terrific. They are
called the Level 10 Band, and you can get a CD from them called Crossover. I
think that THIS is what I would have preferred jazz/rock fusion to be like.
It was jazz with a backbeat that was irresistable.

So here is the problem. I would love to record them myself with my newfound
3 spaced omni technique, but there is no point in microphone techniques with
this group. Everything they do is electronic, from the electric bass to the
midi keyboard to the close-miked drum kits. Even the sax is miked, to keep
up with the volume of everything else. So there is no acoustic sound of this
group, and there is no stereo. At least not in the classic definition of
solid, three dimensional space being captured by miking techniiques for
relay to a two or three channel speaker system in the audiophile household.
The best we could do with a group like this would be to pan the various
feeds to different locations along the soundstage, maybe add some processing
so that the drums sound a little further back, add some reverb, etc. What
you would end up with would be a pleasant sound with a lot of bass, but it
wouldn't be auditory perspective in the sense that we usually talk about.

You guys have experience with recording this kind of thing? What is industry
practice? Do the soundboard roadies ever attempt to mix the sound
reinforcement system in stereo, or am I being introduced to the new reality
of mono?

Gary Eickmeier

[Audio Empire]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 07:09:19 -0700, Gary Eickmeier wrote
(in article >):

> "Gary Eickmeier" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Got a job shooting a hi def band video. We used 2 cameras - I was back
>> camera getting the steady establishing shot, partner was shoulder mount on
>> stage getting close-ups. I used my trusty Canon HV20, and man, what
>> beautiful video. Even tho it was drizzling rain, it looks just superb, and
>> my sound is equally good. Used a separate mike on camera, stereo Teac.
>> Also
>> copped a track from the sound board, and is that ever weird. We don't
>> usually like to take their sound, because it just sounds so Tron like - no
>> audience applause, just the musical instrument and mike feeds from the
>> stage. What was more disappointing about the board sound was that it was
>> dead straight mono. Phooey. I always wondered about that - whether they
>> were
>> clever enough to mix the PA sound in stereo. Guess not. Maybe it doesn't
>> matter.
>>
>> Anyway, will do a mix of each track and cut in the close-up stuff, and
>> should be a great little video for them. Should get us an editing gig too.
>>
>> Gary Eickmeier
>
> I'm going to jump in and respond to my own post and elaborate a little.
>
> Here is what is curious to me: I thought this music was terrific. They are
> called the Level 10 Band, and you can get a CD from them called Crossover. I
> think that THIS is what I would have preferred jazz/rock fusion to be like.
> It was jazz with a backbeat that was irresistable.
>
> So here is the problem. I would love to record them myself with my newfound
> 3 spaced omni technique, but there is no point in microphone techniques with
> this group. Everything they do is electronic, from the electric bass to the
> midi keyboard to the close-miked drum kits. Even the sax is miked, to keep
> up with the volume of everything else. So there is no acoustic sound of this
> group, and there is no stereo. At least not in the classic definition of
> solid, three dimensional space being captured by miking techniiques for
> relay to a two or three channel speaker system in the audiophile household.
> The best we could do with a group like this would be to pan the various
> feeds to different locations along the soundstage, maybe add some processing
> so that the drums sound a little further back, add some reverb, etc. What
> you would end up with would be a pleasant sound with a lot of bass, but it
> wouldn't be auditory perspective in the sense that we usually talk about.
>
> You guys have experience with recording this kind of thing? What is industry
> practice? Do the soundboard roadies ever attempt to mix the sound
> reinforcement system in stereo, or am I being introduced to the new reality
> of mono?
>
> Gary Eickmeier
>
>

I have done this type of recording although I don't enjoy it much and the
results are nothing special. Like you say - multichannel mono and no "stereo"
at all. Since the drums and sax are both acoustic instruments, and
ostensibly, the electronic instruments are each playing through their own
instrument amplifiers there IS a soundfield. What I usually do to capture
that is to set up my stereo mike to pick up the overall soundfield and then
augment the electronic instruments that need it with a direct connection
using phone-plug "Y" adapters (between the instrument output and the board.
Some electronic instruments have two outputs - one to the amplifier, and the
other to the mixer. These don't need a "Y" adapter.) and long guitar cords
directly into the mixer. I don't recommend direct electrical connections with
the electric guitars, though, So much of the guitar's sound depends on the
amplifier/speaker. Forget the contact mike on the sax though. Wind
instruments don't sound natural when "Frapped", so let the stereo mike setup
pick up that and the drum kit directly. You might want to use auxiliary
mikes on the drums, but often that's not necessary - but that's a
case-by-case thing. Definitely use direct connection for synthesizers,
Fender-Rhodes and other electronic keyboards, electronic drum kits,
electronic marimbas, etc. You'll have to carefully pan-pot the electronically
connected instruments into their EXACT physical locations so the direct
connections don't "fight" with the acoustical pickup, but merely augment it.
It sounds difficult, but once you start to set-up, it becomes pretty apparent
what to do.

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Audio Empire" > wrote in message
...

> I have done this type of recording although I don't enjoy it much and the
> results are nothing special. Like you say - multichannel mono and no
> "stereo"
> at all. Since the drums and sax are both acoustic instruments, and
> ostensibly, the electronic instruments are each playing through their own
> instrument amplifiers there IS a soundfield. What I usually do to capture
> that is to set up my stereo mike to pick up the overall soundfield and
> then
> augment the electronic instruments that need it with a direct connection
> using phone-plug "Y" adapters (between the instrument output and the
> board.
> Some electronic instruments have two outputs - one to the amplifier, and
> the
> other to the mixer. These don't need a "Y" adapter.) and long guitar cords
> directly into the mixer. I don't recommend direct electrical connections
> with
> the electric guitars, though, So much of the guitar's sound depends on the
> amplifier/speaker. Forget the contact mike on the sax though. Wind
> instruments don't sound natural when "Frapped", so let the stereo mike
> setup
> pick up that and the drum kit directly. You might want to use auxiliary
> mikes on the drums, but often that's not necessary - but that's a
> case-by-case thing. Definitely use direct connection for synthesizers,
> Fender-Rhodes and other electronic keyboards, electronic drum kits,
> electronic marimbas, etc. You'll have to carefully pan-pot the
> electronically
> connected instruments into their EXACT physical locations so the direct
> connections don't "fight" with the acoustical pickup, but merely augment
> it.
> It sounds difficult, but once you start to set-up, it becomes pretty
> apparent
> what to do.

Thanks for that - very helpful to have your insight and experience. I
probably will not be asked to record them - they have some company doing
that and they have 2 CDs out already. But I sure did get set to thinking
about it.

I fully realize that we 'philes and some professionals get too absorbed in
the imaging part of the business. When you attend the symphony or these pop
concerts, there is no "imaging" as such - just good or bad sound and the
visual image of what you are listening to.

Gary Eickmeier

[Audio Empire]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 03:58:43 -0700, Gary Eickmeier wrote
(in article >):

> "Audio Empire" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I have done this type of recording although I don't enjoy it much and the
>> results are nothing special. Like you say - multichannel mono and no
>> "stereo"
>> at all. Since the drums and sax are both acoustic instruments, and
>> ostensibly, the electronic instruments are each playing through their own
>> instrument amplifiers there IS a soundfield. What I usually do to capture
>> that is to set up my stereo mike to pick up the overall soundfield and
>> then
>> augment the electronic instruments that need it with a direct connection
>> using phone-plug "Y" adapters (between the instrument output and the
>> board.
>> Some electronic instruments have two outputs - one to the amplifier, and
>> the
>> other to the mixer. These don't need a "Y" adapter.) and long guitar cords
>> directly into the mixer. I don't recommend direct electrical connections
>> with
>> the electric guitars, though, So much of the guitar's sound depends on the
>> amplifier/speaker. Forget the contact mike on the sax though. Wind
>> instruments don't sound natural when "Frapped", so let the stereo mike
>> setup
>> pick up that and the drum kit directly. You might want to use auxiliary
>> mikes on the drums, but often that's not necessary - but that's a
>> case-by-case thing. Definitely use direct connection for synthesizers,
>> Fender-Rhodes and other electronic keyboards, electronic drum kits,
>> electronic marimbas, etc. You'll have to carefully pan-pot the
>> electronically
>> connected instruments into their EXACT physical locations so the direct
>> connections don't "fight" with the acoustical pickup, but merely augment
>> it.
>> It sounds difficult, but once you start to set-up, it becomes pretty
>> apparent
>> what to do.
>
> Thanks for that - very helpful to have your insight and experience. I
> probably will not be asked to record them - they have some company doing
> that and they have 2 CDs out already. But I sure did get set to thinking
> about it.
>
> I fully realize that we 'philes and some professionals get too absorbed in
> the imaging part of the business. When you attend the symphony or these pop
> concerts, there is no "imaging" as such - just good or bad sound and the
> visual image of what you are listening to.
>
> Gary Eickmeier
>
>

Symphonies image (unless they use sound reinforcement), pop concerts (ALWAYS
through sound reinforcement (PA) amps and speakers) do not. Also, at live
events you have the combination of your ears and your eyes to localize
sounds. Listening in the home, with your ears alone, you are deprived of one
sense (sight), so aural imaging and soundstage cues become doubly important.

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Audio Empire" > wrote in message
...

> Symphonies image (unless they use sound reinforcement), pop concerts
> (ALWAYS
> through sound reinforcement (PA) amps and speakers) do not. Also, at live
> events you have the combination of your ears and your eyes to localize
> sounds. Listening in the home, with your ears alone, you are deprived of
> one
> sense (sight), so aural imaging and soundstage cues become doubly
> important.
>
If you are in the front rows you can get some imaging, but further back most
of the imaging is visual. I have heard many audio enthusiasts say the same.

My video project has turned out very exciting. I have the footage
(interesting term nowadays) from both cameras and I have begun cutting in
the close-up camera with mine, and it is really cool! Makes it twice as
exciting as just seeing the long shot. Well, not LONG shot, but you know
what I mean. Got to watch my terminology around here. Anyway, the sound was
mixed from my camera and the sound board takeoff, because the board got
better high freqs and my camera better bass, more like I heard it live and
more exciting. The main problem with the video part was that the two cameras
were completely different formats. One was 1080i and the other 720p. They
are both hi def, but would they match? Well, I plunked the 720 footage into
my timeline and the computer took it in stride, and it matched perfectly!
Can't wait to finish the editing and then the next project is to shoot them
in studio, miming their CD, to make several music videos.

Gary Eickmeier